Datisi's Café [game over!]

[jjh927]

I gave a pretty high percentage in my actual job yesterday so I fell asleep before game start

I guess that's kinda how these mechanics work

VOTE: Ydrasse

[jjh927]

As a useful reference, my true entrance will be in about 4 hours when I'm off work.

[jjh927]

Okay, I'm here now

[jjh927]

Anyone want to talk about anyone else in particular or shall I just see if I can remember how to play the game

[jjh927]

What are you seeing in Titus that makes you vote her

This looks like town!Titus to me

[jjh927]

Titus doesn't always make sense to other people but you can still see the thought process going on

I think it's particularly clear when you look for her takes on the wagons she doesn't want to join

[jjh927]

Spoiler: this bit

vote count 1.01

with 21 votes in play, it takes 11 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-09-29 01:45:00).

firing

Ausuka [5]:

Ircher, fireisredsir, Uncrowned, Ydrasse, BlueBloodedToffee

Ydrasse [4]:

Roden, Andresvmb, jjh927, RCEnigma

Ircher [3]:

mastina, petapan, Lukewarm

mastina [3]:

Nero Cain, Malakittens, Klick

Lukewarm [1]:

Vivax

Something_Smart [1]:

PenguinPower

not voting [4]:

Ausuka, furtiveglance, Titus, Something_Smart

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!
~ i am using a vote counter, let me know if there are any mistakes.
~ this is a mod note.

flavour

flavour

now playing...
♫

Toše Proeski - Ledena

♫
▶ ❚❚ ───────────────●──────────────  2:30 / 4:46

I like Ydrasse as town based on how things have progressed so far. Not really seeing the ausuka wagon. Not feeling mastina, even if I disagree on strategy.

VOTE: Ircher

[jjh927]

I mean, I've been paying attention to the game but I haven't been completely there until now

I'm building up on reads right now. I don't particularly remember much of what Titus has been saying, so I can't really make a blanket statement on if I agree or not, and I'd rather finish my readslist in the background before I am confronted with a "Do you agree with this" statement

[jjh927]

I don't have any way of independently verifying whether the things she is saying are true

It's much more efficient to focus on whether the thought process is real

[jjh927]

I've noticed you're pretty big on buzzwords, Vivax

I don't think anything you just said actually holds up

[jjh927]

Also it's a statistical "rule" that I don't think ever held any meaningful basis, and many scum players who are aware of it have been known to purposefully violate it anyway because it throws people off who follow it religiously

[jjh927]

Could you elaborate on what you mean regarding Titus overplaying paranoia

[jjh927]

Here's my gut take


Town:
Lukewarm
Klick
Titus
Roden
Mastina
Ausuka
fireisredsir
PenguinPower
Andresvmb
petapan
Uncrowned
RCEnigma
Ydrasse
Nero Cain
Something_Smart

Nothing:
BlueBloodedToffee

Scum:
Vivax
Ircher
furtiveglance
Malakittens

[jjh927]

Oh yeah I should do this

VOTE: Malakittens

[jjh927]

Okay, question for furtiveglance and specifically NOT Nero then

Who are Nero's scumreads

[jjh927]

Looks oddly like Berserk. It's the type of story that disappoints the readers, maybe cause it wasn't the actual author who finished it.

It's Bastard!!

I watch a LOT of trash

This is trash

[jjh927]

I'll wait for nero to confirm vivax was who he was concerned about because I have no clue who he scumreads aside from Ircher


Follow-up though

Ircher is widely scumread. It seems bizarre to me that one of your thoughts upon reading my readslist is such an absurdly Nero-centric take

Is vivax such a wildly uncommon scumread at this point in the game that something weird is going on if I scumread these 2 people, and also 2 other people, and have Nero low down in my town pile?

You have claimed the same thought process as Nero here. It makes sense as to why it would come from him but since you've agreed with him I'd like you to be the one to explain your working

[jjh927]

I mean, yeah, I thought you might have scumread mala but it wasn't entirely clear based on the way you expressed that

[jjh927]

I'd ask how exactly I've read this poorly, but I'd much rather you leave furtive to drown here because he claimed to be thinking the same thing as a point you made that didn't really make any sense to come from any POV other than yours

[jjh927]

I'll wait for nero to confirm vivax was who he was concerned about because I have no clue who he scumreads aside from Ircher


Follow-up though

Ircher is widely scumread. It seems bizarre to me that one of your thoughts upon reading my readslist is such an absurdly Nero-centric take

Is vivax such a wildly uncommon scumread at this point in the game that something weird is going on if I scumread these 2 people, and also 2 other people, and have Nero low down in my town pile?

You have claimed the same thought process as Nero here. It makes sense as to why it would come from him but since you've agreed with him I'd like you to be the one to explain your working

I'd accept it if you explained any of your own working, a 'gut take' is surely a simple read on what's happening. I'm either scum pushing town!Ircher, or town pushing town, or town pushing scum. Unless you want to argue that we're both scum?

So, does that mean you think Nero has articulated the reads better and it's weird that I am just following them, or is your point entirely designed to try and put things back on me to distract from how your reasoning in agreeing with Nero didn't make sense from your point of view?

[jjh927]

Like, you see that my scumreads contains Ircher and Vivax and you think to yourself "It sure is weird how jjh927 is sheeping Nero Cain"

How does any human being other than Nero Cain approach from this angle?

[jjh927]

If I was literally just misinterpreting you this whole time why didn't you correct this misinterpretation until someone gave you an out

I think I've been pretty explicit about how I have been interpreting it

[jjh927]

It's gut

I'll get to logic over the weekend, Nero

[jjh927]

i mean so was he, you were both just talking past each other

look again, he's talking about your read on him

Think you're right here actually

[jjh927]

I mean, this aside, it's still pretty scummy that you would immediately jump in and try to defend yourself with "But I can't be scum because I scumread Ircher" who might not even actually be scum

[jjh927]

We should either hammer Ircher or move on imo

no?

yes?

Is there an issue with having him continue to dangle close to being elimed while we look at other shit?

[jjh927]

I mean, this aside, it's still pretty scummy that you would immediately jump in and try to defend yourself with "But I can't be scum because I scumread Ircher" who might not even actually be scum

I was asking how your reads made sense, not defending myself. I still don't know what line you're pushing with this post. You can just call me scum no matter what I say if you want, and never explain your reads, I'm sure it'll go down well.

What do you think the gamestate is? Is Ircher being miseliminated or bussed? You're trying to have it both ways.

I don't think you're getting that the answer is "I don't know yet"

[jjh927]

My gut reaction is that you have placed much higher value on broadcasting the fact that you have reads and making sure everyone else knows you have reads than I would expect of town

[jjh927]

You hope others will townread you because of your reads, draw attention to them as a defence, and generally seem more preoccupied with ticking that "thing that town players do" box rather than using it as a tool to spur conversation and more accurately place people
At the base level, you appear to prioritise being townread over gaining information with which to eliminate scum.

[jjh927]

Yeah, the gut read was very much based on the earlygame. We're moving into logic territory now as the gears are turning and I'm now also concerned by your lack of interaction with your scumreads

[jjh927]

For the record, I have read your list of reads, both while just keeping up and also while rereading the whole game a couple of hours back.

But yeah, generally speaking, your scumreads look entirely observational in nature and you don't seem to have made an effort to verify that. Ircher being absent makes that understandable to an extent but I'd feel better if you'd had a meaningful interaction with Roden somewhere

[jjh927]

You hope others will townread you because of your reads, draw attention to them as a defence, and generally seem more preoccupied with ticking that "thing that town players do" box rather than using it as a tool to spur conversation and more accurately place people
At the base level, you appear to prioritise being townread over gaining information with which to eliminate scum.

This is definitely a hot scenario, and I wish I had a cool flavour name like 'Inspector Clipboard', but alas it wasn't to be.

I have some questions for you (which I think you will struggle to answer, so partly rhetorical):

What is missing from my ISO (non-reads content) that other players have?

When have I drawn attention to my reads as a defence this game?

How does one usually gain the information with which one eliminates scum?

1: That's a bit of an arbitrary one. Can't really answer that in a meaningful way.
2. It's kinda my main take out of that argument we had where we both missed each other's points. Your scumread of Ircher is at the crux of that argument no matter how your shake it.
3. We're doing it right now. This kind of conversation. Observation is no replacement for getting stuck right into it

[jjh927]

Ah, so to clarify, my "gut" is a remnant of a very lazy playstyle I used for a period that I've integrated into my current playstyle. It's my thoughts on the matter without tangibly putting those thoughts into words. Near enough my subconscious

[jjh927]

Regardless of how I'm reading you, you seem like a good person to bounce things off of. What do you think of malakittens

[jjh927]

Amusingly I also townread uncrowned

[jjh927]

Might want to discuss some of these in more detail, particularly over the weekend if you are around, but perhaps not right now.

I'm reaching the point where I gotta turn off for the day. Too much thinking.

[jjh927]

That doesn't mean sleeping fwiw, that means watching trashy anime and maybe shitposting

[jjh927]

It is sorted

Gut
It was fairly arbitrary but it's absolutely sorted by confidence of how I felt at the time

[jjh927]

I did particularly like 588, not just the post but the fact it even exists

[jjh927]

How would you feel about exploring other options and then ultimately coming back to ircher if we feel like it later

[jjh927]

To be honest I'd rather wait for Mala to show up and talk to Mala about Mala if that's alright

[jjh927]

If people are ultimately more convinced by something else later than the thing we're thinking now that's fine.

Don't get held back by the idea that we could be correct right now. We also might not be. Getting the most info possible and being as confident as possible that we can lim scum day 1 is the goal.

[jjh927]

If you gain info and you lose accuracy then you only reached the first conclusion by chance anyway

[jjh927]

Okay, I'm hyped for the mastina catchup. Maybe I have some brainpower left

[jjh927]

What are the top 3 worst takes and why

[jjh927]

You said reads plural and indicated that you reached this conclusion after reading her entire iso rather than just her stance on you

[jjh927]

You literally did just come in and say

"Mastina's reads are bad!"
"Well actually I don't mean all of her reads, just her read on me."

Did you know you have a wagon with like 9 people on it and a bunch of the people who aren't on it also think you're probably scum

[jjh927]

I'm pretty sure if I voted you right now you'd be E-1

[jjh927]

I mean, my day 1 reads are unambiguously top tier and you're also in my scumreads

[jjh927]

Right but the point is that maybe rather than trying to defend yourself by shitting on another player's reputation you should focus on actual reads you actually have

[jjh927]

And this is a "don't glance through the posts, actually read them" kind of situation because that's a minimum level of effort required for you to play to wincon if you're somehow town here

[jjh927]

I mean, one thing I haven't seen discussed on a strategic level is the idea that if we were all mafia-playing robots and not people with varying skill levels, optimal play would probably be for everyone with a PR to do 0% on day 1 so that they have 100% banked for using power roles, and we just bite the bullet of the probably two extra kills in N1.

Not all players are equal though so this would cause things to tank on a dayplay level

[jjh927]

But anyway, Mastina declaring 0% is absolutely town indicative because no matter what- Mastina made that decision with thought behind it. Scum!Mastina avoids fakeclaims, especially in a situation like this where there's so many unknowns that could unravel it. And if Mastina was scum, declaring any percentage would be a fakeclaim that might become unraveled.

[jjh927]

I don't think you've considered the range of possibilities that would lead to scum potentially being caught lying about productivity numbers if they make shit up now

Though it depends on what exactly is contained within a scum PM, at the moment we are assuming that only town do anything with productivity numbers.

What if there is a hypothetical role that could determine someone's productivity in the previous phase? How would it respond if it targeted scum? Nobody knows, because it's hypothetical, but it's at least moderately likely given it's not a very far-fetched role design in relation to the mechanic


I can tell you that if Mastina was scum, she would certainly have considered a similar line of reasoning before claiming to put in 0%

[jjh927]

This being said, there is no sample scum role PM and it is reasonable to assume scum have funky non-public mechanics

[jjh927]

Well, paragon is wrong on me apparently. But Nero fights the idea, which could be relevant.

I mean, I don't doubt many of my reads there are wrong. The point is that I'll be right by the end of the day if you give me time.

I also never actually got paragon. My theory is that people who get paragon don't die on night 1 as much as me so they get to solve more games

[jjh927]

I don't really have a read on Mastina atm, but I don't think it is true to say that scum mastina would not lie about her productivity levels.

Why would she lock herself into it before the night phase has even begun?

[jjh927]

I mean, I want to get as much possible right on day 1 because this is how I can maximise my influence on the game and increase the chances of a town win

It's less important in a large because I'm not so arrogant as to assume I'm just the automatic nightkill, but shit happens for sure when I put in the effort in a mini

[jjh927]

Could you put into your own words why you think Titus is town, Ircher

[jjh927]

Could you put into your own words the factors you are considering in Titus' alignment, Ircher

[jjh927]

Can I just clarify that you think that a reasonable town player would look at your play this game and conclude that you are town?

[jjh927]

Okay, but if Titus voting you is "minus points" then do you expect that reasonable town players would not vote you here?

[jjh927]

Or- is this just you continuing to talk shit because you can't actually muster the effort to play scum convincingly and you don't actually have any real objection to anyone's votes on you because you know they are correct and you haven't bothered to read the reasoning in order to attempt to challenge it?

[jjh927]

What about Titus? Can you explicitly state whether you think Titus has a viable reason to vote you?

[jjh927]

Can you give me this weekend including monday without hammering Ircher- then we can hammer Ircher?!

I'd feel pretty hard done by if the night phase took up all the time I can be super productive and then the day phase started with the work week

[jjh927]

I think I can see a reason why it might be a lie, so I'm just gonna put that out there, and then wait for Mastina to show up to say she can also see a reason that is probably the same one, and for neither of us to elaborate

[jjh927]

Because I trust that if I'm on to something she'll see the same thing and we don't need to elaborate beyond that

[jjh927]

I'm not gonna sit here and tell scum what I expect in a fakeclaim this game. Mastina has a different data point to me in the form of her own role PM but will probably look at the claim in a very similar way to me.

PEdit: Ircher is dying in this day phase. He isn't going to be doing any broadcasting tonight

[jjh927]

Wow, that's really annoying. I targeted Peta last night.

Pray continue....

I'm a Mailman with a modifier. I sent him a message asking for advice on how to effectively play my role, and let him know I chose him since I believed he would be the most likely person to give solid advice regardless of his own alignment or his read on me.

Btw there's actually TWO reasons for why I think that this is a scumclaim from Roden, maybe 3.
jjh can probably get 1-2 of them, small outside chance of all 3.

But,
VOTE: Roden

Roden is effectively confscum with that claim.

I'm out of practice

I can see 3 things but 1 is weak, 1 is basically nothing, and 1 is something notable I don't want to reveal because I don't want to tell scum how to fakeclaim this game

[jjh927]

Titus is town here and I have very little doubt about it

[jjh927]

As someone who did not comment on this before vivax seemed to question it- yes, BBT would be an extremely weird scumkill and it's reasonable for people to bring that up, and sure- vivax can be town by the implied claim. I highly doubt productivity dropped below 50% simply because of how averages are gonna work here

[jjh927]

Anyway, I should be in bed

[jjh927]

I think at least 1 of Mastina's points relates to the specific implementation of the role, so it would be wise for you to state exactly what mailman means in the context of this game

[jjh927]

I think at least 1 of Mastina's points relates to the specific implementation of the role, so it would be wise for you to state exactly what mailman means in the context of this game

I just send a message to someone and they are told that it came from me, that's pretty much it. It isn't called Mailman, the actual name is Flirt, but it's essentially just the same as the Mailman role.

How were you expecting to get an answer on how best to use your role?

[jjh927]

Did you say how much it cost in %

[jjh927]

Yeah I was hoping for some elaboration without specifically asking for elaboration as I was in fact fully aware of that post but oh well

[jjh927]

@Roden yeah maybe. But you also have to make a decision as Scum. Either you push Ircher right then and there about a potential slip that Ircher may be able to get away from (I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in), or you hold off, and you position yourself around the flip that started seeming more and more inevitable as the day went on. Look at Vivax’s play and tell me that’s not what you see.

Look Vivax could have just been wrong and Town that’s always possible. But they were definitely the one player I thought was the Scummiest yesterday. It’s hard for me to look away right now.

I think any scum who joined the Ircher wagon would do so nonchalantly, the slip would've panicked the scum team and they wouldn't be sure whether or not Ircher could get away with it in the moment. The pile up happened so quickly that scum would most likely feel too self-conscious to make a big deal out of it or make a hard push, in fear of coming off as informed.

If I had to guess, I'd say two scum on wagon, one scum off.

Interesting line of thought.

What is your take on Klick right now

[jjh927]

@Vivax:

I'd prefer if you shot me over Luke tonight so that Mastina can't hide behind her fake scum read on me all game.

Peer pressure is pushing Roden, among other...Things. I have no idea why people scumread Roden, his tone is very annoyed as scum

Spoiler:

10/3/2020 relevant around here? Anyone ever had anything 'beam' into them?

Also find it amusing that these posts were made so close to each other

[jjh927]

Explicitly so, yes, for multiple reasons.

Share with the class?

-General setup design. Don't assume scum won't have two roles of similar nature or sometimes you will be wrong.
-A traffic analyst flipped. A percentage of scum having communication built into their actual role makes the guilties there more deniable, and makes the TA be more of an inno-hunting role.

[jjh927]

-A traffic analyst flipped. A percentage of scum having communication built into their actual role makes the guilties there more deniable, and makes the TA be more of an inno-hunting role.

With a 70% base productivity cost you think it's an inno hunting role?

Yes? Of 4 flips and 1 claim we have 1 scum with a role that would explain the guilty, 1 town which would be a false guiilty that could also create additonal false guilties, and a claim of unknown alignment that would also be a guilty

Statistically speaking, on a practical level that role is absolutely inno hunting

[jjh927]

Explicitly so, yes, for multiple reasons.

Share with the class?

-General setup design. Don't assume scum won't have two roles of similar nature or sometimes you will be wrong.
-A traffic analyst flipped. A percentage of scum having communication built into their actual role makes the guilties there more deniable, and makes the TA be more of an inno-hunting role.

Where's the scum power if two of them have useless roles?

~ if the average is lower than 75% and not lower than 50%, the mafia gets one extra kill to use that night.
~ if the average is lower than 50% and not lower than 25%, the mafia gets two extra kills to use that night.
~ if the average is lower than 25%, the mafia gets three extra kills to use that night.

[jjh927]

As a PSA, NOBODY's role is meant to fire every night.

[jjh927]

Yeah but unfortunately some people get a vig role PM and think they should tank the average to shoot a lurker

Factor in logical people with actual good reasons to bank some %s and we're gonna be consistently in 50-75% territory even with a good faith effort to keep it managable.

[jjh927]

Optimal play is also far more difficult to determine in this kind of game than likely play, and it gets fuzzy when you see it from a purely roles perspective.

Like I said in day 1- optimal town play from a balance perspective was most likey for every PR to put in 0%, howevet this inores day play and skill levels, which is a human factor that must also be considered in design

[jjh927]

Personally, I assumed in day 1 that scum might have hidden factional mechanics of their own, but none of the redactions on Ircher's role PM hint at that being the case

[jjh927]

Scum power through roles is a constant throughout the game. They don't have a productivity mechanic to deal with. Whereas for town, you get diminishing returns- fewer people to cover for lowered productivity, and increasing costs in a lot of cases. Scum should be expected to be fairly low power in terms of roles as a result

[jjh927]

Why did you decide to use this role?

...What? Why does anyone ever use a role?

Could you elaborate on the full percentage costs including the extra for the reply thing?

[jjh927]

Worth noting, I don't think Ircher's role would actually show up guilty to a TA, because it's not private communication. I've asked Datisi.

Confirmed that I was right about this.

Also yeah that makes sense

I actually had this thought after going offline while trying to get to sleep

[jjh927]

Why did you decide to use this role?

...What? Why does anyone ever use a role?

Could you elaborate on the full percentage costs including the extra for the reply thing?

I already did........

So you're saying the whole thing including the extra for the reply is 5%, or have I missed something?

[jjh927]

Why did you decide to use this role?

...What? Why does anyone ever use a role?

Could you elaborate on the full percentage costs including the extra for the reply thing?

I already did........

I don't see where you did this. Go into full % cost details, please, unless your whole ability is just 5%

[jjh927]

Maybe, Roden, just maybe, I am giving you an opportunity to reveal the missing details of your claim for which their absence makes your claim suspicious

[jjh927]

To put it bluntly, I care about getting the info before your flip so I can make a decision about whether to flip you. If you want to act like you did in that gng upick then you can go right ahead and I'll treat this elim as a policy one. Right now I am doing due diligence on your claim in good faith with the intention of clearing up the things that Mastina thinks means you are lying, or otherwise proving them correct.

[jjh927]

You hadn't given me any actual reason to think you're scum until now, Roden, nor have I said I think you're lying. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

[jjh927]

Like, can we skip this? Either you're doing the thing you did that other game ages back where you try pissing me off in order to place me, you're resigning yourself to being the elim while trying to blame everyone else, or you're just scum and you're out of directions to go in

I would very much appreciate it if you'd just cooperate

[jjh927]

Do you have an opinion comparing Roden right now to GNG upick

[jjh927]

I will say I don't think there are any abilities in the game that aren't one-use that don't have increasing costs per use, unless anyone would like to claim otherwise

[jjh927]

Roden's initial claim containing a bunch of lies is not great combined with the current claim but I do think it's very similar to GNG upick in terms of how he's behaved here. That being said, it doesn't escape me that in GNG upick much of the cageyness was influenced by him feeling guilty over playing to an anti-town bonus wincon

[jjh927]

I'm never gonna understand why I'm always like this as town or what I'm doing wrong

The modifier makes the person that I message able message me back the next night for free. That's it, there's nothing else to claim.

Like, this is such a messy thing to refer back to and be like "I fullclaimed"

This reads as "The person I message is able to message me back for free", not "The modifier is free"



But that just seems to be poor communication and Roden refusing to clarify things thereafter, and my gut is very confidently saying Roden is town in a way I can't ignore

[jjh927]

I think Mastina, Lukewarm, Titus, and Roden are all town

[jjh927]

We have the weekend ahead of us and Dannflor just replaced in

This is a great time to try and get everyone on the same page rather than just defaulting to a Roden lim

[jjh927]

I don't get what you mean there

That maintains like 75% of that initial concern voiced in 469. That's looks like consistency to me

[jjh927]

Friendly reminder that one of the roles that already flipped would be a false guilty for the traffic analyst that would itself create additional false guilties

Also worth noting that scum are also likely to have a role that would be able to 'explain' the guilty if they got hit by the traffic analyst because that's pretty common design

Roden is town regardless but the mechanical reasoning on this page is pretty poor. Roden being town is very much in spite of the mechanical reasons for him not to be

[jjh927]

Now, Dannflor, do you want to talk about Klick

[jjh927]

Can you give a go at answering the question I asked Roden but try and put in the thought that I wanted Roden to put in

@Roden yeah maybe. But you also have to make a decision as Scum. Either you push Ircher right then and there about a potential slip that Ircher may be able to get away from (I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in), or you hold off, and you position yourself around the flip that started seeming more and more inevitable as the day went on. Look at Vivax’s play and tell me that’s not what you see.

Look Vivax could have just been wrong and Town that’s always possible. But they were definitely the one player I thought was the Scummiest yesterday. It’s hard for me to look away right now.

I think any scum who joined the Ircher wagon would do so nonchalantly, the slip would've panicked the scum team and they wouldn't be sure whether or not Ircher could get away with it in the moment. The pile up happened so quickly that scum would most likely feel too self-conscious to make a big deal out of it or make a hard push, in fear of coming off as informed.

If I had to guess, I'd say two scum on wagon, one scum off.

Interesting line of thought.

What is your take on Klick right now

[jjh927]

Anyway, need to make my rounds, collect protection money, have a drink, then send my curriculum to the PLA /jk

But jjh is sort of implying he's neighbourized with Klick and thinks that's the scum, methinks

No, you're completely off, but I wouldn't really expect you to be on the same page as me

[jjh927]

Like, you're conflating two posts about completely different things

[jjh927]

Back to the game, I'd like more from JJH about their scumreads.

I'll let you know when I've identified someone I think is actually likely to flip scum as opposed to simply being at the bottom of my list

[jjh927]

I find speculating about specific reads from dead people being why they were killed to be incredibly unscientific and really not worth time at all

[jjh927]

Are you just trying to sheep the dead for independent reasons then?

[jjh927]

Like, I was assuming you were putting more value into the read because the player who held it died

[jjh927]

Roden is town regardless but the mechanical reasoning on this page is pretty poor. Roden being town is very much in spite of the mechanical reasons for him not to be

Roden still fucked up his claim in a way that I thought for sure you saw but which apparently you didn't. In regards to the percentages.

His role is also not a town one because of what the town/scum roles are.

No, I saw it and it's even public, but I don't think it's impossible

[jjh927]

I hope you aren't trying to run out the time left before someone hammers Roden in order to avoid me

[jjh927]

I mean, you probably aren't and that would likely be giving me way more weight than I really have, but the thought has certainly been in my head

[jjh927]

Can we start calling it a protein deficiency if people are being scummy

[jjh927]

Well this looks like a ridiculous mess to walk into

Titus, fullclaim all the aspects of your role in one post rather than splitting it up

[jjh927]

Yeah Mastina we'll get to your thing when Fire shows up but right now Titus is here

[jjh927]

I'm pretty sure if this was real and you really did count as having access to a hood from the start of the game then you would actually have a hood from the start of the game with just you in it

[jjh927]

If your target is scum AND your target is targeted by someone else, does your ability still kill you?

No. It fails.

Why on earth would you assume in a world where the day starts and the thread opens and you are alive but you don't have a PT that the action just hadn't been resolved yet?
Surely in your claimed position it would be blatantly obvious that someone must have targeted your target

like, your claimed role has 3 outcomes-
If you target scum who is not targeted by anyone else, you die.
If you target someone who was targeted by someone else regardless of alignment, nothing happens.
If you target town who is not targeted by anyone else, you get a PT with your target


You would be pretty obviously in scenario 2 but you went all guns blazing at the start of the day like you were in scenario 3?

[jjh927]

Ydra, do you get a separate result that says whether your target has PTs or is your result effectively the absence of you joining any PTs

[jjh927]

if titus had a pt i would be aware of it and be able to join it

I didn't actually have one. I just count as having one. Basically, I was a miller for Ydrasse and didn't know it.

Counters my ability to possibly clear 2 people.

?

How would you be a miller for Ydrasse in this situation? Your role prior to you creating a PT with someone would work exactly as expected if you hadn't claimed to have a PT in response to Ydrasse asking why you had a PT as a gambit

You'd be a miller for the traffic analyst role though

[jjh927]

Mastina, Fire's fullclaim below

LOL no you don't, hard counterclaim

im a reddit moderator, i can check if someone carried out a night action. i used it on mastina both nights and both nights she did not carry out an action. i just triple checked my results to make sure

25% + 5% each use

VOTE: mastina

[jjh927]

traffic analyst [cost: 70%; +10% for each additional usage] - during the night, target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is able to privately communicate with at least one another living player, via private topics or otherwise. you cannot distinguish between a player who is alone in a private topic, and a player who does not have private topic access at all.

For reference, Titus

[jjh927]

so looking back I may have misread that

[jjh927]

What fire just said is accurate

[jjh927]

Oh boy so Mastina's guilty on Fire is explained by Mastina being roleblocked and Fire's guilty on Mastina is explained by Mastina being roleblocked

[jjh927]

I'd rather not rush this day phase tbh

Could you at least give me some time to consider the mech here
It may look like there's an obvious solution but I'm gonna go against the grain again and say that literally every claim that has been made could theoretically coexist and all be town

[jjh927]

I think it's probably inaccurate setup spec

I was thinking similar lines but not making the assumption that it was definitely the case at the time. Mastina's judgment mechanically has appeared very rushed this game

[jjh927]

It may look like there's an obvious solution but I'm gonna go against the grain again and say that literally every claim that has been made could theoretically coexist and all be town

This is true, but it would require town-Titus to fumble her role very hard.

Ideally Titus just flips RB and then we can kill fire afterward.

You're right, and that's why scum!Titus is the obvious solution

In terms of timeline;

Titus claimed a masonry when it appeared Ydrasse was hinting Titus had a PT
Ydrasse claimed the result that Titus does not have a PT
Titus explicitly claimed masons with Mastina
then proceeded to elaborate on conditions that made it extremely clear that Titus did not masonise Mastina



I want to have a look at whether or not Titus might have genuinely made a mistake there or it's just a very quick attempt at a recovery. Titus didn't seem to acknowledge at any point that she made a really obvious mistake- it required other people pointing it out. There's something in there but I can't really analyse with real accuracy while my brain is frazzled from my in-office day at work.

[jjh927]

Mastina, why have you not reached the conclusion that Fire could just be a roleblocker yet

I don't think it's true

I think I could maybe add Fire to this increasingly ridiculous statement below and still plausibly be right

I think Mastina, Lukewarm, Titus, and Roden are all town

but it's the obvious conclusion that explains why he would know you couldn't act either night while also explaining the failed action on your part

[jjh927]

Ydra, do you get a separate result that says whether your target has PTs or is your result effectively the absence of you joining any PTs

[jjh927]

If you're so sure you didn't get roleblocked then why didn't fire just claim the ascetic or whatever you think it is that caused the no result

If it's a role that passively causes no results in that way then fire would have had no reason to fear a guilty because it would have been impossible

[jjh927]

maybe wolf team balanced by like inverse of town

maybe they have to be more productive to actually use roles during night

so pick between using pr or getting extra kill

is there any reason this wouldn't make sense mastina?

There are many reasons this wouldn't make sense.

Primarily this one that I didn't immediately notice

~ non-town power roles function as normal.

but I could go into detail on why it would be an awful setup decision that would never be made as well

[jjh927]

Mastina, Fire only claimed to be able to determine if someone acted or not. It's weaker than a tracker.

[jjh927]

Mastina, why have you not reached the conclusion that Fire could just be a roleblocker yet

I mean possible but unlikely; scum would have reason to believe they'd be wasting their roleblock on me.

Then how do you explain the no result? If Fire had a role that would cause your action to fail, he would not have needed to worry about your 'guilty' whatsoever

[jjh927]

Like, from your POV right now, is Fire a mafia ascetic tracker? You're making multiple leaps of logic at the same time and I don't think you can feasibly jump that far

[jjh927]

I'm gonna go to bed now and I'm gonna be mad if anyone makes any irreversible decisions while I sleep

This whole mechanics fiasco has distracted me from how the Roden wagon ended but I was annoyed at that too tbh

[jjh927]

I think the interesting thing about Dannflor's answer to my question about Klick is that my question was actually about Roden and the question itself lost all value after Roden flipped

[jjh927]

If I had a penny for every time someone hammered and it interrupted me trying to do a thing, I'd have 3 pennies, which is more than Datisi is paying me to work at this cafe

[jjh927]

Insight into you and Roden, a bit of general group discussion about Klick, and then maybe some unity if it worked out that way and I decided you were town

[jjh927]

I think the point I was making way back then was that Klick had pretty much done the things Roden said scum would do with regards to day 1

[jjh927]

At this point I haven't a clue, honestly

[jjh927]

Gun to my head they might actually be the closest thing to a scumread I have right now but I feel like I've been actively denied information over the course of this game

[jjh927]

Acknowledging the prod

This is my birthday weekend


That being said, I have been thinking about this game and I'd like to help mastina revive the wagon on
VOTE: furtiveglance

Mastina, Ydrasse, Fire, Andre, Dannflor all town
PP and SS probably town

Means 2 scum in Furtive, Mala, Klick, Uncrowned, and I'm very much swayed by mastina's point on furtive's 2820. That might depend on whether or not Mastina actually HAS left something out of her role. Scum 100% rolecopped Mastina in n1, because Titus' fakeclaim came before Mastina's and copied the 150% cost to make it more credible

[jjh927]

Okay surely that post is never made by town

"Nothing wrong with my scumread on Dannflor; I just have too many scumreads."
"Which is a totally normal thing, trust me."
"Also I'm going to deflect onto more players at once than there are scum."
"Also Mastina bad because I am town"

[jjh927]

Do you think pushing is the only form of important interaction?

I've definitely pushed you
Roden felt like a bit of a push as he was defensive but that was quite the opposite to be honest

Other than that? If you wanted serious activity out of me earlier game then why did people keep hammering immediately before the highly telegraphed periods of high activity allowed by real life circumstances

[jjh927]

Yeah I thought you might completely miss the point considering you aren't really trying to see it

[jjh927]

Did you honestly pay any attention whatsoever to how I interacted with Roden or did you make that statement entirely based off of my 2980

[jjh927]

Yoooo birthday paradox

I just turned 25

[jjh927]

I wasn't getting great vibes from mala in general and I feel like the interactions with Titus actually look pretty damning now I know Titus was scum, but I'd like to think about it

UNVOTE: furtive

[jjh927]

I’m ok with yeeting Titus.
There will never be a day where I’m never not yeetong Titus

VOTE: titus

i got u lukewarm bby

zzzzzzzzzzoooooooooooooooooooom
byeeeeeeeeeee titus
you scumrat

<3

So what exactly is Mala!scum *doing* if anyone could explain that that'd be great

Surviving

[jjh927]

I don't think scum have to have some master plan where they decide who is going to endgame. I also don't think players who aren't good at scum just immediately give up when they roll scum.

As a reminder we've limmed scum 2/3 days, so if scum have a master plan it probably sucks or relies on a single good scum player surviving (which is not a plan)

[jjh927]

How come when you were quoting mala posts you missed out these gems

Andre is prob town.

VOTE: Mastina

Back to bed for ma

:/ Uh what? Why?

The vibe I got here if Titus flips scum I have a feeling one of these is her partner.

I'll explain it later if I can, but it's a vibe check, AND I'M ALL THERE FOR IT OK

towntold

HA

SORRY TITUS

I'M MORE OBVTOWN THAN U

GET OVER IT

[jjh927]

I don't think andres is scum but at this point I don't have any better ideas, other than Mala who you just all moved off of

even so

VOTE: Mala

[jjh927]

Okay, maybe I ought to spell some things out like I was gonna on day 3 after giving people a bit of time and trying to see if anyone would try and rescue Titus if I gave a possible out. Titus' rolecop flip was also invaluable addition to my understanding here.

If Fire is scum, Mastina is town. Mastina declared a guilty on Fire shortly after the guilty on Titus.
If Fire is town, the result is accurate and Mastina didn't act successfully on day 1 or day 2. Key word, "successfully". This word was missed out of Fire's initial claim, so if Mastina was scum and dialled back the guilty to a no result in response to the claim, she'd potentially have been sacrificing her ability to win thde 1v1 in the event that the role did not check "successful" actions and instead checked just for the attempt. Furthermore, I don't think scum!Mastina would attempt a guilty on day 3 anyway. Therefore, if Fire is town, Mastina is also town.

Therefore Mastina is town, independent of Fire's alignment.

So where does that leave Fire? Now we can certainly say Mastina got a no-result on Fire on N2. If we ignore the "why" for a second, let's think about it this way- Fire's claim was an ideal reaction to Mastina's claim. Therefore, if Fire is scum, scum had significant information on Mastina's role.

Now, Titus has since flipped rolecop, which makes things a lot clearer where the information would have to come from. I will assume that Mastina got rolecopped on N1.

Let's go back to the "why" the action failed. Mastina was roleblocked. No question in my mind; Fire is for sure not an unclaimed ascetic or similar, and if a rolestopper targeted Fire that is functionally equivalent to Mastina getting roleblocked as it would probably have been done to stop her specifically.

Now then, final stretch- if scum know Mastina's role, and that she was roleblocked in Night 2 (or otherwise could not get a result on Fire), then why did Fire make the claim he did? A scum!Fire with the information to make a complex fakeclaim that perfectly fit under the circumstances of Mastina's 'guilty', would have known a simple fakeclaim would suffice. Which is to say, Fire could have claimed VT and it would be equally plausible mechanically. The actual claim itself is verifiable to an extent, which is why a claim like VT would have been vastly superior for scum in this situation.

The logical conclusion is that Fire trueclaimed, or is one better and is a full tracker or similar. In either case, scum!Fire wouldn't have targeted Mastina on night 2 if she was being roleblocked, and it's not the most likely N1 either if she was getting rolecopped. Again- in that scenario, why not trueclaim the targets? The response to the guilty didn't need to be a counter guilty. Also, Fire claiming to target Mastina on both nights is probably the weirdest thing about the whole claim and has gained suspicion based on D2 behaviour. For completeness, before anyone argues that he might have targeted someone else who subsequently died, note that if he was scum then he would not have tracked someone who was a scum nightkill and so there would be a living person who could verify if he stated a real target in that situation.

Therefore I must assume that Fire not only trueclaimed role, but also did indeed target Mastina both nights, which would make 0 sense whatsoever as scum given the conclusion that Mastina was likely rolecopped N1 and roleblocked N2.

In conclusion, both Mastina and Fire are mechanically town.

[jjh927]

Other people don't get essays since that was mostly written on a train journey 3 hours ago and now I'm posting in a quick break from work so probably won't get much further than this.

I think Dannflor is the living player who had the best Titus scumread
Ydrasse obviously did good there too

That's probably all there is to the next tier of high townreads

[jjh927]

I accept it and think you should probably drop it

If Klick turns out to not have a confirmable role when we do massclaim which may well be next day phase, then that's when you should refuse to drop it. Right now though, just don't

[jjh927]

There are assumptions but I think they are far too well founded for you to call them logical gaps. It's not quite a true mechanical clear given the circumstances but if you think the logic is flawed you are going to have to elaborate on where you disagree rather than just saying it is flawed.

[jjh927]

I'm increasingly convinced Mala's interactions with Titus are scum indicative and haven't forgotten she was my main gut scumread on day 1, which for me is entirely notable

[jjh927]

I guess we can give Klick a day

Mala is just so unsatisfying

jjh did you have a reason for leaving furtive alone?

Not a good one

The posts he was making where he was resigned to death looked towny but I say that knowing full well that it is frequently a bad idea to change your mind based on posts like that at that gamestate. Even so, it's enough I don't want to vote there

[jjh927]

If Mala shows up before someone hammers then I think we can expect a claim at this point in the deadline

Not that it should make a difference but the opportunity is there

[jjh927]

I think it's time for one of three things;
A. Massclaim
B. Fire to claim n3/n4 results
C. Me to finally stop putting in 100% and use my nght action

[jjh927]

Or maybe we just lim scum today. I'm going to read over all that momentum swinging last day phase and then stew on it

[jjh927]

I think based on gamestate it would be best if Fire claimed n3/n4 results. This way he has an opportunity to "prove" he is not a roleblocker

[jjh927]

PP is the obvious choice tbf

That being said- massclaim, preferably with PP going first and Fire being as early as other people want, although my personal preference would be Fire last because I think he is just town

Anyone up for it?

[jjh927]

Massclaim should be a huge thing rn because scum can't multitask, the last scum is known to be a roleblocker, and there are lots of power roles floating about

[jjh927]

Massclaim should be a huge thing rn because scum can't multitask, the last scum is known to be a roleblocker, and there are lots of power roles floating about

Sure. It also gives a glaring roadmap of which PRs to block. Awesome suggestion tbh.

Scum can't multitask so good luck blocking the PRS, PP

[jjh927]

Yeah that's what I get for replying on a page I didn't refresh

At any rate- I doubt scum will have a multitasking roleblocker specifically given they had an informed role as a dedicated killer, as well as a really minor PR that they could discard if needed to make kills

Furthermore, all spec thus far points to the roleblocker being gated to all hell. Multitasking would be a way of REMOVING gates from the roleblocker.

[jjh927]

PP is just trying to buy time for his fakeclaim

[jjh927]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[jjh927]

This whole setup is built to topple that argument? We have a lot more PRs than a normal game due to the mechanic in place

[jjh927]

Thank you.

Fire gets to claim his results from the last 2 nights then

[jjh927]

UNVOTE:

[jjh927]

I'll also say- yeah, that's dirt cheap, but it would be very poor mechanical spec to assume that the power of the role is the only factor in determining the % cost. Rather, a low percentage cost for a more powerful role would itself be a way of making a role higher power.


Obviously, if Andres did in fact go anywhere we would all be very interested in hearing that and we can end this early

[jjh927]

I mean Andres can say whether he went anywhere

[jjh927]

Well, that gives us a good indication of who should claim next

[jjh927]

It's worth remembering that at this point, people probably need a particularly good reason to act at night

[jjh927]

I'm a gamer

I can self watch for 30%, +5% per additional use. I have put in 100% every day phase because this ability would have been garbage for most of the game

[jjh927]

Btw we already mechanically win

3 players conftown and 2 players who are extremely likely to be town based on role and how the mech has been handled who can create a conftown each or otherwise get a guilty

9 players alive

Conftown are an unavoidable majority

[jjh927]

If we lim in [me, dannflor, furtive, SS] and both Fire and PP target different people within that group then we will be guaranteed to have 4 conftowns going into day 6 with only 7 players alive- unless there's a guilty, which is obviously an autopilot win.
Fire and PP technically would have to go back on the chopping block in day 6 but yeah


Number 1 priority is to avoid productivity dropping below 75%. Both PP and Fire can fund their roles for this phase and we'll average 90%, so there is wiggle room, but not enough for pointless selfishness

[jjh927]

I can also confirm that Datisi was able to confirm the existence of at least 1 VT in the game as I asked on day 1 just to verify what SS said

[jjh927]

Dannflor claims next? Possibly last claim tbh since if andres is conftown we don't necessarily need that one

[jjh927]

You know we can figure this one out really easily right? Our % is calculable. Mastina had a 1-shot role and Ydrasse was against using abilities unnecessarily.


Klick, Penguinpower, Uncrowned, and Fire- what percentage effort did you put in last phase?

[jjh927]

I was just about to ask how he would submit the kill if you targeting him gave him an extra kill, but you specify TONIGHT and I misunderstood

so like, would be two kills in this coming night phase? Yeah, SS has to die under these circumstances or this isn't mechanically solved

[jjh927]

Klick, what percentage did you give last phase

[jjh927]

Gonna be blunt though- this isn't adding up in a way that doesn't make sense

[jjh927]

There were two kills last night phase. For us to be between 50 and 75%, 250 out of the total 1000 points would need to have been used for PRs.

40+35+20 is 95. Even if Klick went 0 there's 55 missing. Really strange for there to be a discrepency as this is something only town can affect?

[jjh927]

Klick, are you absolutely certain the extra kill thing is this coming night phase and not the same one you used your action

[jjh927]

There were two kills last night phase. For us to be between 50 and 75%, 250 out of the total 1000 points would need to have been used for PRs.

40+35+20 is 95. Even if Klick went 0 there's 55 missing. Really strange for there to be a discrepency as this is something only town can affect?

We don’t know what mastina and ydrasse’s productivity was.

Mastina had a 1-shot role. Giving less than 100% would be actively harming town for no reason.

Ydrasse was against using roles unnecessarily so it can be assumed 100%, but let's not even assume that-


Percentages go like

Fire: 60
Uncrowned: 65
Penguinpower: 80
Klick: 75
jjh927: 100
Dannflor: 100
Something_Smart: 100
furtiveglance: 100
Mastina: 100
Andres: ? but didn't act
Ydrasse: ?

We should assume one of the 100s is the scum because if not then we'd be even further away from the 50-75 band.

40+35+20+25 is 120. 120+Andres+Ydrasse must equal at least 250? Ydrasse needed AT MOST 25% to use the PT joiner if it had been used every previous night.

Honestly, what the hell is going on here? This does not add up.

[jjh927]

I'm honestly torn as to whether this is worth asking Andres to claim or not

This mystery isn't getting solved otherwise

[jjh927]

No, it makes even less sense if a PR claim is fake

[jjh927]

That makes it go the other way even further

[jjh927]

Any VT claims want to put out that they put in less than 100% yesterday just because they couldn't be fucked to work?

[jjh927]

Okay, I think the most logical conclusion is that someone gave an amount lower than -30%. Yeah, a negative number. Because we're literally at a point here where the numbers could only logically have been fudged by one individual, and they can't have been fudged that much without them giving a literal NEGATIVE value for production.

Someone is actively sabotaging our cafe work

[jjh927]

Malakittens was informed of something. Could easily be the existence of a traitor who fucks with the numbers like that.

I just checked and Ircher's slip of the numbers came before Mala's first post in thread.

If we're assuming it's a traitor though we should ignore them on the basis that they probably can't act in any other way. Continue treating Andre and anyone else who later gets cleared by PP or Fire as innocent unless we lim the roleblocker and the game doesn't end.

[jjh927]

Okay, I think the most logical conclusion is that someone gave an amount lower than -30%. Yeah, a negative number. Because we're literally at a point here where the numbers could only logically have been fudged by one individual, and they can't have been fudged that much without them giving a literal NEGATIVE value for production.

Someone is actively sabotaging our cafe work

Are you saying that 5 mafia or a third party still doesn't make it add up?

Yes. I am. If we assume 5 regular mafia, so 2 alive that don't count on productivity, AND we make the generous assumption that Ydrasse acted last night (which I personally doubt) then we still average no less than 86%. Without the exception of a role designed specifically to do so, mafia shouldn't have any effect on productivity.

There are three possible scenarios;
1. Multiple town players have lied. I think this is basically impossible
2. Mafia got a second kill for a reason other than productivity. I think this is extremely unlikely.
3. There exists a role that is actively sabotaging production and can give negative values for the average.

[jjh927]

Yep

I'm agreeing with the spec that there could be a traitor

[jjh927]

What else would you call the guy stealing money from the cash register but a traitor in this situation

[jjh927]

Hmm, I got similar answers to similar questions

No clue then as to why there were 2 kills because scum interference in the percentages would have made the most sense

[jjh927]

We officially cannot rule out a 3p existing

[jjh927]

We can rule out a third party interacting with the productivity in any way though

Might just be responsible for the extra kill appearing though