Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Menalque
VOTE: Menalque
VOTE: Menalque
VOTE: Menalque

[Frogsterking]

Frog what do you think about the idea that Menalque appeared to genuinely not know that his slot had already claimed VT

I think they replaced in a long time ago right? And they possibly read what happened to Shea/CSF, are familiar with a bunch of the players here, and have seen that reaction test a dozen times before?

I think Menalque took the laziest path of least resistance to not get voted out by faking the easiest Town tell in the world, posted some filler and tried to pocket a couple people, then discreetly disappeared with no resolution to their position within the game or anything that would resemble a Townie motivation to doing anything within their own agency to participate in the game.

[Frogsterking]

frog please don't

Don't want? I thought you weren't resistant to a Menalque wagon?

[Frogsterking]

if we can correctly trim the poe down to 6 names

Menalque (high certainty), fire (moderate certainty), edge cases S_ S/Dease (low certainties)

Have any questions, scamper?

[Frogsterking]

Is it crazy to think that Relly and Skitter could be scum together and Relly just used a shitty made up reason to town read his buddy?

It's unlikely, not crazy. If you prefer sticking Shea in as an edge case instead of S_S or Dease I think that's pretty logical.

[Frogsterking]

Is it crazy to think that Relly and Skitter could be scum together and Relly just used a shitty made up reason to town read his buddy?

It's unlikely, not crazy. If you prefer sticking Shea in as an edge case instead of S_S or Dease I think that's pretty logical.

Like Menalque (high), fire (moderate), S_S (low) / Shea (low) I can roll with.

And I just tunneled impotently on Dease all game because I'm bad. Seems logical to me.

[Frogsterking]

Like I don't think it's logical at all that we aren't running up Menalque right now. So Tweet is bad at scum replacing in and Menalque is good at scum replacing in? And Menalque didn't even do well, they just didn't do as bad as Tweet? Let's send this guy packing, that's a freaking mediocre scum rep in if I've ever seen a mediocre scum rep in my whole life.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think you are bad.

though I did promise that I'd lim you today if you didn't do my psych profile...

Lmao FWIW I have to get in touch with my contact to help go over the scripts I'm using. They indicated you were ‐2 on a 1-5 scale for intellectual curiosity which I DON'T think is accurate

[Frogsterking]

I don't think you are bad.

though I did promise that I'd lim you today if you didn't do my psych profile...

Lmao FWIW I have to get in touch with my contact to help go over the scripts I'm using. They indicated you were ‐2 on a 1-5 scale for intellectual curiosity which I DON'T think is accurate

My plan is to fix the scripts after the game and then PM you and fire the psych profile (even though fire only asked to pocket me)

[Frogsterking]

I don't really see any good reasons to townread S_S for, which would normally be concerning for this point in the game, but also historically my read rate on him has also been abysmal

I wouldn't stop a wagon there ig

I found one looking through his scum game in HDP! Have you heard of the Luca Blight tell?

[Frogsterking]

Okay finally here's something concrete-ish from HDP:

Norwee shows interest in Datisi:

I kinda want to townread Datisi just for that post alone.

Would you want to propose to me dearest Datisi?

hi

Did you show up because i was seducing Datisi.

But posts this while Datisi is still available:

I think the last slot here i actively want to pair with is Marcistar. :v

When asked who he wants to pair with:

Marcistar.

Some flirting

Who am i to solve the game without your guidance.

if i proposed would u help me solve t-t

i don't know, probably? to be fair i've read his recent meltdown and i got a bit of a feeling it's a townie one, so /shrug

do u think he would be a good partner for me?

i could never get mad at you Marcistar

This isn't something i say lightly btw.
I'm probably more interested in the personality of people i play with than their alignment. So i definitely know who i'm gonna get along with and who i'm not.

Marci meanwhile proposes to LLD, then GL, and finally Norwee. If they are both scum and planned on pairing together, then the plan sure didn't go back very far. But it looks like Norwee was angling to pair with marci early on.

Looks kinda "solvey"

Maybe comparable to what S_S wrote on Dease early in this game.

This type of pushing is present in HDP, as well as a lot of promises to deliver invaluable reads on certain players (Galron and Mala in particular). He shows a lot more conventional attempts at scum hunting in his scum game than he does in games like this. In this game and the other Town game I played with him I'd describe his play as agnostic, like he's not convinced players can actually form reads which aren't made up.

[Frogsterking]

This is the closest thing S_S has done this game, and it was only done because it was specifically asked for:

Idea of what?

Absolutely nothing from skitter/obscure btw. Obscure is (as has already been pointed out) an odd combination of new to the site and very eloquent/self-assured, but with him having no knowledge of site meta, I can't reliably say that he would expect to be scumread or townread for X thing.

Nero, you seem quite bothered by my posts. Do you think I’m scum?

probably, yes

probably, yes

Cool

UNVOTE:

????

Your scumread on me seems superficial but not inauthentic

I mildly like this sequence from DV

you say you have a method of getting reads on people generally and you said that its generally not effective in some cases but I'm unsure why you didn't at least try to use this method on the wagons that happened since you've replaced in.

I have! I think about it every time I read a post. But most of the time it doesn't return anything.

DV seems generally pretty careful and deliberate with his posting, it could be partially for optics or it could just be his style. Aside from the sequence I quoted I didn't see a lot that deviated from "scum playing a standard solid-ish scumgame". Since there are surely other people who also fit that description, I guess he's on the chopping block for low activity?

His progression on me doesn't really make a lot of sense, it seemed like he had me as town for mild efforting when it was potentially possible to get towncred from WK'ing, and now that my wagon has collapsed he wants to keep open the option of re-starting it. Or he just happened to have weakly-justified reads that followed that pattern.

I would like to hear a little bit about why this (and anything else) stand out to you.

Well, it stands out because it's weird, and doesn't make a lot of sense on the face. Nero is absolutely not the type of person to townread this or take it well at all, and if he was actually setting up a push on Nero then he ruined it.

I mean I guess it looks kind of similar. I feel like the energy behind it is different. I have him in my solve as an edge case:

Menalque (high certainty) -> fire (moderate certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (low certainty) -> Dease (honorable mention)

[Frogsterking]

This type of pushing is present in HDP, as well as a lot of promises to deliver invaluable reads on certain players (Galron and Mala in particular). He shows a lot more conventional attempts at scum hunting in his scum game than he does in games like this. In this game and the other Town game I played with him I'd describe his play as agnostic, like he's not convinced players can actually form reads which aren't made up.

im reading he mini normal and he actually did produce reads there (and votes)

Did it look similar to his scum game in HDP?

[Frogsterking]

Menalque (high certainty) -> fire (moderate certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (low certainty) -> Dease (honorable mention)

If 3 of Ydrasse/scamper/CSF/Nero agree on any of these names, I'll sheep it. I think that's fair.

[Frogsterking]

Can someone tl;dr the case on fire scum?

Their wagon movement on D2 really sus and they've been trying to pocket me all game

[Frogsterking]

Can someone tl;dr the case on fire scum?

Their wagon movement on D2 really sus and they've been trying to pocket me all game

And Ari N1 death:

hi ari!

hi hi hi

I don't think I am scary at all but it is more interesting to be wagoned than the alternative so I'll allow it.

i think that if i share a reason that could be viewed as "bad" then you will not hesitate to tear it apart and it will weaken any ability to push you later and also might allow you to murder me if you want to do that

the simple reason is that it doesn't really feel like you're trying to sort anyone or move the game forward, but that isn't really my reason

what was your reason really?

my gut is telling me there are some things you are leaving out of this explanation that have to do with you knowing what my alignment is this game but my gut is often wrong so I will let it slide <3

fire you don't have to make me that seriously when I say I have an embarrassing probably wrong reason <3

I do appreciate the effort though!

[Frogsterking]

Ari also said Gamma was prob good. Dunno if we should treat her reads like a bible.

That's not my point, I'm saying Ari was killed for that. Ausuka was going to be next if scum didn't have a bunch of vigs to murder first.

[Frogsterking]

@CSF

I don't really have an opinion on the eye roll and the other reaction stuff - that seems like something Gamma would say as either alignment. I guess my biggest hang up with the lim was that Tweet claimed something that resolves tomorrow anyway.

But I don't disagree that Tweet's posting has felt flat, so short of flashwagoning someone else, I'm not going to fight it that much

I'm down VOTE: Dease

Breadcrumb is is something

5370 shall be named the "fireisscum" post.

I breadcrumbed my suspicion of fire because I didn't want to end up like Ari, fire is vicious.

[Frogsterking]

I bet we'll look back and find marci had fire low in their reads list. I'm telling you people who speak out against fire tend to disappear at night.

[Frogsterking]

You think this scum team with the even-night-friendly-neighbor claim actually knew which vig to kill, and *that's* why marci was killed?? Pff

gamma
ausuka
dannflor
shea
frog
nero
--
smart
hem
obscure
--
scamper

fire

lions
soft elf
ydrasse
deasnail

with u idk where.

town | town? | ??
towniest to scummiest just like u bb

Oh hey would you look at that

#genius

[Frogsterking]

gamma
ausuka
dannflor
shea
frog
nero
--
smart
hem
obscure
--
scamper
fire
lions
soft elf
ydrasse
deasnail

with u idk where.

town | town? | ??
towniest to scummiest just like u bb

fire was a scum read but not that low

It's low enough to catch the ire of fire.. fireisvicious.

You watch..if this game goes on long enough, once CSF is taken care of, it's Ausuka, Shea and myself *runs finger across throat*

[Frogsterking]

You think this scum team with the even-night-friendly-neighbor claim actually knew which vig to kill, and *that's* why marci was killed??

What do you mean by this?

I'm exaggerating to be comical. I genuinely think the Ari death is sus for fire but I can understand why that's not convincing for all. I was implying here that the scum team is focused completely on dayplay and getting fire to the endgame to such an extent that marci being the correct kill was just a coincidence; the real reason she died first was because she put fire in her scum bin.

[Frogsterking]

FYI I wasn't trolling here:

@CSF

I don't really have an opinion on the eye roll and the other reaction stuff - that seems like something Gamma would say as either alignment. I guess my biggest hang up with the lim was that Tweet claimed something that resolves tomorrow anyway.

But I don't disagree that Tweet's posting has felt flat, so short of flashwagoning someone else, I'm not going to fight it that much

I'm down VOTE: Dease

Breadcrumb is is something

5370 shall be named the "fireisscum" post.

I breadcrumbed my suspicion of fire because I didn't want to end up like Ari, fire is vicious.

Ari also said Gamma was prob good. Dunno if we should treat her reads like a bible.

That's not my point, I'm saying Ari was killed for that. Ausuka was going to be next if scum didn't have a bunch of vigs to murder first.

This stuff I believe with a

low

level of certainty. The stuff about marci I was joking.

[Frogsterking]

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

oh shit yes i was there, that's right

ok i kinda skimmed his iso there

and i do say that he was more involved there than here

however, that game still feels like much less involvement for him than holiday dance party was, and firebringer was my strongest townread in holiday dance party

so overall i deem the fact he's not present a lot Not Clearing - especially as he claimed to have been busy during d1

I take it he was town in holiday dance party?

fb was lowkey nowhere near excited enough about the game (esp in a Pl that he likes and knows people in) to be scum, it's just a couple of jokes and a lot of bland and then I assume he repped out

have you ever actually played with scum-firebringer to know this? i know it's a popular joke, but still

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

T3 made this game as a reaction test

Also we can be friends I guess Mena I feel like your response was probably town

If you betray me I will cry

I would never, I am the towniest lil townboi there is

hence why I'm not yelling at scamper about game throwing

This is a scum response.

hang on, explain this

I've seen the "I don't know why you're doing this town but you must have a good reason so I'm not accusing you of game throwing" response way more from scum than town. I feel like town has more of an inclination to get immediately angry whereas scum tries to remain calm and try to figure a way out. Shrug.

Specifically the verbiage "this is weird you're not throwing" to me comes from scum way more often then town in these spots, just as a personal experience sort of thing.

firstly, I am trying to turn over a new, chilled out leaf and to continue on my path to tranquility

secondly, this initially pinged me as v performative seeing as I was basically 100% dead there as scum and so calling out anything I said as "scummy" seemed redundant if you were legitimately convinced I was. idk how scum!me would be figuring out a way out there and so I couldn't see how you would think that's what I was doing, but if it's more that just the non-angry vibe was reminiscent of prior scum reactions I suppose that makes sense

I didn't have a particular reason when I did the thing, I was reacting. I saw a bunch of posts in the pedit of the iso dive I did on frogsterking, said "eh, those are probably just nonsense." and then came into the thread to see shit raining down from the sky. Then I reacted to that shit.

I think that post would really only be performative in the way you're suggesting if we're buddies though. Like if you're town and I'm scum why would I make that post?

because ironically I think that when scum are ~around~ at the time that someone is getting wagoned and they don't wanna duck thread I've often seen them go for statements like "this is a scum claim" "this always comes from scum" "this is a scum reaction" to have some involvement in the shindig and I guess sometimes to play into looking like they're uninformed?

animal crossing.

oh gotcha

what is acnh

fb was lowkey nowhere near excited enough about the game (esp in a Pl that he likes and knows people in) to be scum, it's just a couple of jokes and a lot of bland and then I assume he repped out

have you ever actually played with scum-firebringer to know this? i know it's a popular joke, but still

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

T3 made this game as a reaction test

Also we can be friends I guess Mena I feel like your response was probably town

If you betray me I will cry

I would never, I am the towniest lil townboi there is

hence why I'm not yelling at scamper about game throwing

This is a scum response.

hang on, explain this

I've seen the "I don't know why you're doing this town but you must have a good reason so I'm not accusing you of game throwing" response way more from scum than town. I feel like town has more of an inclination to get immediately angry whereas scum tries to remain calm and try to figure a way out. Shrug.

Specifically the verbiage "this is weird you're not throwing" to me comes from scum way more often then town in these spots, just as a personal experience sort of thing.

firstly, I am trying to turn over a new, chilled out leaf and to continue on my path to tranquility

secondly, this initially pinged me as v performative seeing as I was basically 100% dead there as scum and so calling out anything I said as "scummy" seemed redundant if you were legitimately convinced I was. idk how scum!me would be figuring out a way out there and so I couldn't see how you would think that's what I was doing, but if it's more that just the non-angry vibe was reminiscent of prior scum reactions I suppose that makes sense

It's not going to work Menalque I'm watching your slot lurk out and I'm not unvoting.

Do you actually think this is a game state where scum mena can lurk out pressure? Like maybe today IG even if i find that uniquely, but what about tomorrow?

Like i just fundamentally don't believe the correct play for scum in the poe right now would be to try to lurk it out. I think it would be to try as hard as possible to get out of the poe.

Like i don't really know the efficacy of arguing with you about this here because it just seems like another place where we just massively disagree on how to find scum but i still feel compelled to point it out.

In a vacuum I do because they can hope that we get super tilted and forget about them due to recency bias. I think it's more effective to try and fight out of the PoE, but I've encountered more lurk scum so far than power scum, and I've seen it work out for them more often than it probably should.

Now, in this context, if you're suggesting that Menalque themselves is more likely to take the power scum path because xyz reasons, then I'm open to hearing that out for sure.

[Frogsterking]

Like i just fundamentally don't believe the correct play for scum in the poe right now would be to try to lurk it out. I think it would be to try as hard as possible to get out of the poe.

Like i don't really know the efficacy of arguing with you about this here because it just seems like another place where we just massively disagree on how to find scum but i still feel compelled to point it out.

Also, it sounds like you might be better at playing scum than a lot of players because you're assertive and play a lot of strategy games and maybe like acting/performance art. I'm usually looking for players who are struggling to make up convincing reads because that's more what I relate to and expect to see.

[Frogsterking]

Do you have much experience with Mena in particular? I wouldn't describe them as someone who is likely to shy away from a fight.

No, I know nothing about them except that I've heard they're good at playing scum.

[Frogsterking]

Do you have much experience with Mena in particular? I wouldn't describe them as someone who is likely to shy away from a fight.

Are you suggesting that they're being setup by fire, and that fire is making it look like they're resistant to Menalque to implicate them and protect a buddy like S_S? Because if the team were actually Menalque-fire they would be unlikely to take this approach because it leads to almost certain loss and Menalque isn't that kind of player?

[Frogsterking]

I have no idea what frog's talking about with the dann/scamper thing, although I don't think it is scummy

I was tinfoiling. You can tell I wasn't thinking clearly because I lost the presence of mind to add the

certainty

thing.

[Frogsterking]

Do you happen to have a preference in Menalque/fire/S_S/Shea, Ausuka?

[Frogsterking]

i think he is uhhh very much the type that im vulnerable to

[Frogsterking]

On the other hand, I think its suspicious that it's not consistent. For instance, he was all about pushing me day 2 despite the fact that one of his town reads, ausuka, had me as pretty close to their top town read, so it

IIRC she was the only one and I've been going with a 2 to veto system. I brought that up in at least one other context this game which can be dug up if need be. If 2 players from the core group were townreading you then a made mistake, but I feel like I probably didn't.

[Frogsterking]

and 7 to no eliminate

Oh hey that's interesting

[Frogsterking]

I have a terrible memory but I feel like tweet's claim might be an indicator that scum also figured out the odd/even situation? At least partially

They might have, but I would think it was more likely just an explanation for why the FN didn't go off N1.

Lmao

What's an example of what scum!S_S would suggest for Tweet to claim?

[Frogsterking]

and 7 to no eliminate

Oh hey that's interesting

I think I was the first to pioneer that rule like a decade ago! NE just needs enough to make a majority impossible.

Cool!

[Frogsterking]

perhaps a tracker with a random "went nowhere" result on a townie N1. If they contradict it, hey we outed a PR; if not, hey our claim is backed up.

Smart

[Frogsterking]

I kind of think this post is pretty townie. I don't think scum S_S would tell MT to claim something investigative with scamper prettttty strongly hinting that they were an investigative of some kind.

Even in a large where there is probably more than 1 investigative?

[Frogsterking]

also scamper is either gated or was role blocked given he didn't get a result from last night

Gated refers to the even-odd night thing?

[Frogsterking]

Gated refers to the even-odd night thing?

Gated means any modifier that affects when a role can be used, like odd/even night, X-shot, etc.

Thank you.

[Frogsterking]

@all

Can all the Town players not voting Menalque stop dragging their knuckles and either vote them or put forth some concrete xyz case why you aren't? You're making it easier for scum to hide by refusing to do anything meaningful regarding the Menalque slot.

[Frogsterking]

This is an example of what I consider to be acceptable:

i'm waiting for
(1) mena to do something ai
(2) s_s to give a read on him

I think Mena's reaction to the gambit was moderately +town (I believe I already said as much?) because he clearly expressed ignorance that his predecessor claimed. (Could be faked ignorance, but if he's scum it probably wasn't real.)

ok fine - how well do you think you can read mena

I would say, better than I can read most people. I recall one game, cursed though it was, where I was pretty much the only person to (correctly) call out Mena as scum. Of course I was not in a position to convince anyone, but when am I ever?

That's honestly the main thing that's making me feel this way, so I don't know how accurate it is. But I don't think I've played with scum-Mena many other times (and I can't recall ever confidently and incorrectly scumreading him), so I guess I have an okay read rate historically.

This is an example of what I consider to be unacceptable:

deas buddy can i get A Readslist(tm) from you

it can be naked that's ok i just wanna see where your head is at

TOWN: Datisi, scamper, cat, Nero
town: Ausuka, Dannflor, fireisred, GuiltyLion, Menalque
Currently considering as possible scum (this is dynamic and changes depending on the mood): Ydrasse, SS, fireisred, TSQ, Frogster

Just as an example, 30 minutes ago Menalque would have been in the bottom tier but I thought about it.

Let's get this wagon on the road, players.

[Frogsterking]

I mean I guess it looks kind of similar. I feel like the energy behind it is different. I have him in my solve as an edge case:

Menalque (high certainty) -> fire (moderate certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (low certainty) -> Dease (honorable mention)

I'm making an adjustment to my solve:

Menalque (high certainty) -> Dease (moderate certainty) -> fire (low certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (honorable mention)

[Frogsterking]

I'm pretty sure fire is way likely to flip red and I'm not going to be strongarmed into voting a worse wagon.

Fire has some plausible deniability with their play because of their high neuroticism + agreeableness, neurotic people get stressed out and incriminate themselves all the time (I'm super neurotic) and agreeable people can look like bandwagoners.

[Frogsterking]

bandwagoners

Speaking of, is exactly what we need right now. Fire?

[Frogsterking]

was kinda waiting for mena to come back and talk but ig maybe it doesn't matter. sure

VOTE: mena

Because your nice and give people the benefit of the doubt

[Frogsterking]

Where is the mena wagon at now?

It's time for you to hop on the bus

[Frogsterking]

Where is the mena wagon at now?

It's time for you to hop on the bus[/strike]

Wait I fucked that up.

It's at the bus stop.

[Frogsterking]

Why mena over SS, frog?

S_S seems like they're having fun flitting around posting in the thread and I'm skeptical they're still in their scum range.

[Frogsterking]

i did just have a concerning thought tbh but im gonna shove it away for now

you can't just say this

i think it's probably unreasonable and also a bad idea to go into at this time

Yeah it's tinfoil but it was important enough to mention and you may as well tell them since they asked.

[Frogsterking]

I'm not sure if Frog is trolling or is this conf biased

You think this scum team with the even-night-friendly-neighbor claim actually knew which vig to kill, and *that's* why marci was killed?? Pff

gamma
ausuka
dannflor
shea
frog
nero
--
smart
hem
obscure
--
scamper

fire

lions
soft elf
ydrasse
deasnail

with u idk where.

town | town? | ??
towniest to scummiest just like u bb

Oh hey would you look at that

#genius

There's something ironic about this I'll get into during Twilight.

PEdit:

I agree

[Frogsterking]

Why vote the traitor candidate instead of the group scum candidate

[Frogsterking]

Or is it because you didn't like my post?

[Frogsterking]

This is what I meant about irony:

You think this scum team with the even-night-friendly-neighbor claim actually knew which vig to kill, and *that's* why marci was killed?? Pff

gamma
ausuka
dannflor
shea
frog
nero
--
smart
hem
obscure
--
scamper
fire
lions
soft elf
ydrasse

deasnail

with u idk where.

town | town? | ??
towniest to scummiest just like u bb

Oh hey would you look at that

#genius

My subconscious was trying to say something and my conscious got in the way.

The point being that scum probably have some type of roleblock/rolestop/alien ability and we're jumping to the conclusion they killed the vig claims in the order they did for purely mechanical reasons when in reality it's more likely their reasons were multifaceted.

[Frogsterking]

Dease is in a different time zone than most players so it makes sense that could translate to some disorganization and low morale within the team even though Dease himself is a strong player:

Fwiw, I don’t remember the last time I played a scumgame where people actually…. discussed stuff in the scumchat

Just as an example, 30 minutes ago Menalque would have been in the bottom tier but I thought about it.

Where is the mena wagon at now?

It's time for you to hop on the bus

Well I might, but would prefer to know whereabouts on the bus I’d be sitting

Mena -> Dease -> S_S is optimal

[Frogsterking]

It's not impossible but it's still a jump. Csfs kill would still go through even if they died right? So killing Marci so she can't shoot tonight makes more sense to me than she was shot bc fire is at the top of her scum list

Firebringer is here to bail out Gamma or is just oblivious?

I am going to word this nicely.
But was this post made with the intention of trying to annoy me or just made without thinking?
I don't know.

I am going to calm down now because this post shouldn't have bugged me as much as it should and you probably didn't intend it to.

partly bc this post sort of feels like a "wtf dude why are you calling this out" post

maybe thats a reach

i hope it's a reach

With a stretch like that I think you missed a career in ballet performance

[Frogsterking]

It's not impossible but it's still a jump. Csfs kill would still go through even if they died right? So killing Marci so she can't shoot tonight makes more sense to me than she was shot bc fire is at the top of her scum list

Not fire, Dease.

[Frogsterking]

anyway if it is actually SS traitor + frog groupscum i think i know who the last one is but im getting extremely ahead of myself here so i don't want to go there bc ill be embarrassed if this sudden random tinfoil is completely off base

it's probably not GL tho i think that one's a false trail

Yeah I mean you can also just vote Menalque so we can win the game. Theoretically FYPOV you don't have concrete reasons to distrust me yet and you will be alive to push me later after some flips since you didn't claim shit.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: S_S

[Frogsterking]

Do I still get partial street cred for this work if S_S flips red?

I mean I would say it's an unusual method

maybe I shouldn't have said weird

I'll agree that was reaching but I got excited because I saw a post that was using that method to justify a town read on Gamma and it gave me queasy feelings

Why did you hate that S_S post?

I hate the parts that I bolded:

It seems like pretty typical Frogster shenanigans,

honestly

. Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong,

but it might just be scum-him

trying to come up with something distracting to do.

This is not the kind of post I like to see coming from a slot I recently defended. Yikes.

The first bold, "honestly", is self-qualifying, and makes me suspect the first sentence is there because S_S doesn't feel entitled to post in the thread. The second bold looks like a hedge on a read Town!S_S should be able to make (S_S has seen me go A-WOL as Town.) It doesn't seem logical or emotionally congruent for the second part to be there unless S_S is afraid to outright disagree with you...which would also imply S_S is afraid to post in the thread. I believe this with more certainty than my other takes, like

low/moderate

certainty this post is scum AI for S_S.

I believe with equal

low/moderate

certainty Town!SS writes 5721 like
"Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong." and hits send. I believe the additional parts of it that I bolded are AI.

Additionally, I believe on a

very low

certainty level that S_S may be familiar or interested in Francis Galton or Google's algorithm or w.e because I'm pretty sure (ie moderate/high certainty) that S_S is quite intellectually curious. So I'm deducing that S_S refraining from getting into that at all is survivalistic from them, even if the extent of their comment on it is to inform me my method is terrible because xyz.

And it also had to do with my thinking that S_S was town, and this would force him to just take it

Why is this a good thing though? I wanted to hear from Mala... it's not like there was any risk of something bad happening if you waited.

Example ^^

Also:

s_s, do you have any opinions on me or my pair

I have a shit history at reading both you and GL. I...

honestly

can't recall much about what you've done, and most of what GL has done that I can recall is tunnel my slot for dumb and facile reasons, which is probably +town to be

honest.

AAAAH

(now the Mala example sounds eerily like the TFN thing)

HDP was my second-strongest scumgame to date,

The

Tinfoil

is getting Real with S_S though

I had him 3rd on my PoE by all accounts before you demanded I switch from Menalque.

[Frogsterking]

@all

Can all the Town players not voting

Menalque

S_S

stop dragging their knuckles and either vote them or put forth some concrete xyz case why you aren't? You're making it easier for scum to hide by refusing to do anything meaningful regarding the

Menalque

S_S

slot.

[Frogsterking]

The day doesn't have to be between mena and ss. I hate false dichotomy. We could actually scum hunt instead of...whatever it is we're doing here?

Shea do you TR Mena and S_S?

[Frogsterking]

The day doesn't have to be between mena and ss. I hate false dichotomy. We could actually scum hunt instead of...whatever it is we're doing here?

Shea do you TR Mena and S_S?

I have been very clear on how I feel about Mena and S_S. I suggest you read my posts.

Based on your behavior I'm deducing that you TR both of them and if that's true then that take is approaching BoP range FMPOV.

[Frogsterking]

If Shea is down to hammer Menalque can we off them now instead? Fire is probably beetlejuicing so we have the numbers online now I think.

[Frogsterking]

What's the rush, exactly?

The urgency isn't coming from fear it's coming from a desire to get the win down on paper instead of dicking around debating between marginal choices which won't affect the result. Another analogy is that it's like the shift in Magic when you go from being a casual player to a Pro or a Semi-Pro or w.e you're at where you learn to put the opponent out of the game when you have the upper hand instead of trying to reach some fantasy ideal position and wasting time allowing the opponent the chance to eventually draw the specific cards they need to steal the win. You can hammer S_S or w.e and give us the booty dance tomorrow if they're Town and you're playing to your wincon like a semi-Pro instead of a casual because you're moving the scum team one step closer to losing even if technically it wasn't the ideal perfect play to off S_S today.

[Frogsterking]

I may not be doing what you wish I was doing, but I've generally been pretty open to attempting things that people ask me to do.

This isn't exactly a Town tell though

[Frogsterking]

And, I'm not really looking to start a dialogue with Nero. (I mean if he wants to I won't refuse, but it seems unrealistic.) I mostly just want to bring to the attention of others that the reasons Nero has for scumreading me are mostly nothing.

do you actually think nero is scum or is this more of jsut a general protest ?

It's scum looking for that long shot chance

[Frogsterking]

Another analogy is that it's like the shift in Magic when you go from being a casual player to a Pro or a Semi-Pro or w.e you're at where you learn to put the opponent out of the game when you have the upper hand instead of trying to reach some fantasy ideal position and wasting time allowing the opponent the chance to eventually draw the specific cards they need to steal the win.

[Frogsterking]

And, I'm not really looking to start a dialogue with Nero. (I mean if he wants to I won't refuse, but it seems unrealistic.) I mostly just want to bring to the attention of others that the reasons Nero has for scumreading me are mostly nothing.

do you actually think nero is scum or is this more of jsut a general protest ?

It's scum looking for that long shot chance

Has there been any majority wagon in this game you were against?

There weren't very many, this is one of the easiest Town games I've ever played, though I think most of my Town games feel more difficult than they really are because I go on tilt.

[Frogsterking]

Yall need a Town wrangler here, where's scamper?

scamper
scamper

[Frogsterking]

do you actually think nero is scum or is this more of jsut a general protest ?

I think his scum equity has gone up from his attempt to limit the wagons to me/Mena. I was also in kind of a bad mood from something unrelated. Call it six of one, half a dozen of the other.

This is totally a scum post...

[Frogsterking]

When i read like 200 pages of scum!S_S i noticed he kept ending his posts witn these stupid aphorisms involving numbers like "that's just my .02 cents" and "if i had a nickel for every time someone said that about a GL post I'd have...a dollar".

Now in #6574 he's going "call it six of one, half a dozen of the other" because he's getting excited because he thinks Shea and Nero are going to create World War 3

[Frogsterking]

When i read like 200 pages of scum!S_S i noticed he kept ending his posts witn these stupid aphorisms involving numbers like "that's just my .02 cents" and "if i had a nickel for every time someone said that about a GL post I'd have...a dollar".

Now in #6574 he's going "call it six of one, half a dozen of the other" because he's getting excited because he thinks Shea and Nero are going to create World War 3

Did you read a town game too perchance to compare? He just does that regardless of his alignment is my experience.

I'll read one now if you have one in particular you will recommend. I kind of feel like #6574 pinged you though for a different reason if I understand how you think at all.

[Frogsterking]

scum equity

I don't recall you using this term before S_S?

[Frogsterking]

Yeah that's why, Shea. If you search the topic for "equity" you're the only one who uses that term scum equity, and S_S used it just now for the first time ever because he's trying to "fight his way" out of the PoE, but in his own style you know, subverting the louder voices in the thread

[Frogsterking]

low

certainty on this by the way, but I think it's worth looking into because if S_S is trying to pocket you it will be easier for others to pick up on it sometimes.

[Frogsterking]

Shea did you search the topic for equity? And I agree with your analysis, I think S_S is playing well but the cracks are starting to show for me.

[Frogsterking]

THEN WHY DO I SEE ONLY YOU USE EQUITY WHEN I SEARCH FOR IT AND THEN S_S USES IT FOR THE FIRSTTIME EVER AT THE MOST IDEAL OPPORTUNITY TO POCKET YOU

[Frogsterking]

why gamma as town would wanna move the day along too quickly..?

I want to hear Gamma address this.

Do I still get partial street cred for this work if S_S flips red?

I mean I would say it's an unusual method

maybe I shouldn't have said weird

I'll agree that was reaching but I got excited because I saw a post that was using that method to justify a town read on Gamma and it gave me queasy feelings

Why did you hate that S_S post?

I hate the parts that I bolded:

It seems like pretty typical Frogster shenanigans,

honestly

. Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong,

but it might just be scum-him

trying to come up with something distracting to do.

This is not the kind of post I like to see coming from a slot I recently defended. Yikes.

The first bold, "honestly", is self-qualifying, and makes me suspect the first sentence is there because S_S doesn't feel entitled to post in the thread. The second bold looks like a hedge on a read Town!S_S should be able to make (S_S has seen me go A-WOL as Town.) It doesn't seem logical or emotionally congruent for the second part to be there unless S_S is afraid to outright disagree with you...which would also imply S_S is afraid to post in the thread. I believe this with more certainty than my other takes, like

low/moderate

certainty this post is scum AI for S_S.

I believe with equal

low/moderate

certainty Town!SS writes 5721 like
"Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong." and hits send. I believe the additional parts of it that I bolded are AI.

Additionally, I believe on a

very low

certainty level that S_S may be familiar or interested in Francis Galton or Google's algorithm or w.e because I'm pretty sure (ie moderate/high certainty) that S_S is quite intellectually curious. So I'm deducing that S_S refraining from getting into that at all is survivalistic from them, even if the extent of their comment on it is to inform me my method is terrible because xyz.

And it also had to do with my thinking that S_S was town, and this would force him to just take it

Why is this a good thing though? I wanted to hear from Mala... it's not like there was any risk of something bad happening if you waited.

Example ^^

Also:

s_s, do you have any opinions on me or my pair

I have a shit history at reading both you and GL. I...

honestly

can't recall much about what you've done, and most of what GL has done that I can recall is tunnel my slot for dumb and facile reasons, which is probably +town to be

honest.

AAAAH

(now the Mala example sounds eerily like the TFN thing)

HDP was my second-strongest scumgame to date,

The

Tinfoil

is getting Real with S_S though

I had him 3rd on my PoE by all accounts before you demanded I switch from Menalque.

Okay, I stand corrected:

S_S uses words referring to scum hunting frequently like "scum equity"


...WHEN THEY'RE TOWN

[Frogsterking]

Okay, I stand corrected:

S_S uses words referring to scum hunting frequently like "scum equity"


...WHEN THEY'RE TOWN

EBWOP

[Frogsterking]

Playing with you is one of the most unique experiences I've ever had in my life so I guess thank you for that.

How often do you think S_S refers to "scum equity" in their scum games?

[Frogsterking]

I'm about to search HDP for equity. It's 300 pages and S_S replaced in around page~45. Do you think S_S refers to scum equity once? Maybe twice?

[Frogsterking]

Huh? That's weird? S_S never refers to "scum equity" in HDP. I guess that might be because HE'S NOT TRYING TO FIND THE SCUM?

[Frogsterking]

Let's pull up a random S_S game.

[Frogsterking]

Meh whatever I was wrong there's no correlation to his alignment


Oops

[Frogsterking]

Let's go back to this I think we were onto something here

When i read like 200 pages of scum!S_S i noticed he kept ending his posts witn these stupid aphorisms involving numbers like "that's just my .02 cents" and "if i had a nickel for every time someone said that about a GL post I'd have...a dollar".

Now in #6574 he's going "call it six of one, half a dozen of the other" because he's getting excited because he thinks Shea and Nero are going to create World War 3

Did you read a town game too perchance to compare? He just does that regardless of his alignment is my experience.

I'll read one now if you have one in particular you will recommend. I kind of feel like #6574 pinged you though for a different reason if I understand how you think at all.

I don't think you understand how I think even a little bit given...pretty much every comment you've made about me this game.

And I don't know what you're referring to.

Although I did just go back to glance through S_S's iso in cats vs dogs to try to find examples of the "just my two cents" type thing and I just...It's just ridiculous how different S_S's play is that game to here. Like he's still not forceful and he still isn't someone to throw his vote around and make something happen but there is much more trying to actually give opinions on the general state of the game and where things should be going. And I find that kind of odd given that he said he was particularly demotivated that game due to hating multiball.

Like, this quote, for instance:

despite my dream I think Titus is still best lim here for info

X

In a post using literally no words there is more attempt to actually influence the game based off his opinions than in this one. In his 8th post in the game having replaced in literally the day before. I need to read a scum game too I guess because like, the difference I see in S_S here and in CvD is just...way larger than I remember it being.

Yeah that's interesting, maybe there's something to explore here

[Frogsterking]

I need to read a scum game too I guess because like, the difference I see in S_S here and in CvD is just...way larger than I remember it being.

Scum!S_S game (HDP)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88375

He replaces in around page ~45 out of ~300 pages.

IIRC little to attempt to directly influence the game, but I'll let you be the judge

[Frogsterking]

I take it you're down to hammer S_S now?

[Frogsterking]

Nope, I see no reason why

this day needs to end yet

.

Mission accomplished

*wipes sweat from brow*

[Frogsterking]

Ah, I failed then.

[Frogsterking]

I got distracted and ended up here somehow:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87330

Oh yeah, I was looking for bad scum game examples for S_S.

[Frogsterking]

Twelve million, six hundred forty-four thousand, four hundred forty-second post.

AAAH!

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to update my solve, I have it down to four names:

Menalque (high certainty) -> S_S (moderate certainty) -> Dease (low certainty) -> fire (very low certainty)

[Frogsterking]

Apropos of nothing I just went to ausukas wiki and
"Hi I'm Ausuka. I don't play mafia outside of marathons anymore. Because of this there's no reason to list any game data here. If you see me playing mafia, please tell me to stop. I occasionally mod games and post on sitechat."

On no. But I do not want you to stop. You're the only one who thinks I'm town.

I decided to put you in my Town reads.

I also don't want to cause this to get lost in the thread, because S_S flaked immediately after:

can you do me a favor?

I can do my best, what's up?

I want you to theory craft a brand new way you might be able to find scum reads that you haven't tried before and then do it.

[Frogsterking]

@scamper

It seems likely (high‐moderate certainty) that Town is currently divided between two correct scum wagons and lacking the numbers to move forward with either one. I recall at one time being the loudest Town voice against this pair of wagons, so it seems some consensus has been reached now that Nero and I are also pushing for S_S (and Menalque is there for me too.) The two highest posters in the game are clashing in the thread, and I'm the third highest poster and prone to tilt/tinfoil, so it's probably in Town's best interest if you pushed either wagon through ASAP to avoid letting scum a chance back into the game.

[Frogsterking]

I have a response

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Mena

[Frogsterking]

I have created three separate responses in regards to 6625:

Response #1

Spoiler:

Response #2

frogsterking is more and more reminding me of that bunnies mini normal where they were town and they were very annoying in trying to get the things their way and were posting constantly and whatever the fuck. i really really don't think scum-frogster is able to match this level of... posting.

also, frogster: marci was killed for mechanical reasons. we're at evens, which means that scum CANNOT let another vig shot go off. pls stop bringing up her reads as a reason for her to get killed. thanks.

My play here isn't similar to my play in Bunnies and I can prove it with a

very high level of certainty

:

I have no idea what frog's talking about with the dann/scamper thing, although I don't think it is scummy

I was tinfoiling. You can tell I wasn't thinking clearly because I lost the presence of mind to add the

certainty

thing.

I mean I guess it looks kind of similar. I feel like the energy behind it is different. I have him in my solve as an edge case:

Menalque (high certainty) -> fire (moderate certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (low certainty) -> Dease (honorable mention)

I'm making an adjustment to my solve:

Menalque (high certainty) -> Dease (moderate certainty) -> fire (low certainty) -> S_S (low certainty) -> Shea (honorable mention)

I'm going to update my solve, I have it down to four names:

Menalque (high certainty) -> S_S (moderate certainty) -> Dease (low certainty) -> fire (very low certainty)

No matter how many rabbit holes I've fallen down this game I've demonstrated I can return to reality without mod interference and when I do my reads remain consistent with only minor logical adjustments. I have the presence of mind to include (or not include) some elements like my

level of certainty

which indicate to the reader how internally consistent I am feeling at the time of writing. Since settling on my D3 solve in 6177 I've been maintaining an easy-to-read list of who I want to vote and who I'm willing to vote which are by all accounts in accordance with what's acceptable to the clears and quasi-clears. The only dramatic change has already occurred and occurred semi-gradually over the course of D3, and it was going from me wanting to look for a busser on the Tweet wagon (5645) to me

not

wanting to look for a busser on the Tweet wagon (6141.)

Response #3

Spoiler:

which is why i would KINDLY tell frogster to stop asking for a hammer because as the Resident Confirmed Town: no.

Okay.

[Frogsterking]

Firebringer is here to bail out Gamma or is just oblivious?

I am going to word this nicely.
But was this post made with the intention of trying to annoy me or just made without thinking?
I don't know.

I am going to calm down now because this post shouldn't have bugged me as much as it should and you probably didn't intend it to.

ill probably do a deep dive analysis on GL, Conman and Dannflor sometime today or tomorrow. Those slots im interested in, everyone else is kind of w/e in my eyes right now.

SS can you explain why Nero is scum to you cos I really don't see it

He's trying to chain lim me and Mena and prevent people from reevaluating. Of course town-Nero can do that, but it feels pro-scum.

this is taking forever lol. I'm only going to do the first 100 posts in everyone's ISO; it still produces a reasonable amount of data.

[Frogsterking]

i haven't followed as closely as i could but i haven't been struck by someone being so overtly scummy i want them dead this instant and have bounced back and forth on people like fire, who i guess in my head just kind of slots into the place of "yeah wolf"

but then fire posts like "i sus frog a bit" which like yes, same hat, because frog very... mechanical and not in the like mechanics itself sense but more doing this or that and it's a sequence. this is vague but like the point is the fire thing resonated with me, a bit. so i can find points of reference and think oh well, i'm thinking that so maybe a little towny.

I feel

moderately

certain that you're onto something here in that I would choose to play more mechanical as scum, and it's a valid tell because I wasn't really self aware that my play had started moving in that direction. I think Ausuka posted some insight earlier which I also wasn't self aware of and is useful for differentiating whether my play is AI:

having frog's isos in large normal 238 and this game side by side;
- first thing i notice is that wild theories and stuff is something he does as scum too and wildness isn't town indicative for him
- i think his play in that game is cleaner. i don't think it's something i see, like, completely cleanly or confidently, but in general he seems to be more focused on pushing a single player, and his reads make more sense; i guess it would make sense to me that the difference is he's scum and is inventing reads in a relatively simple manner vs what town frogster actually comes up with?
- i would disagree that he's notably more co-operative in that game. frog in this game appears to be stubbornly anti-gamma, even suggesting FB is trying to 'bail out' Gamma in 1781 just for coming in and doing things that aren't gamma related. when scamper argues that gamma is town he is willing to unvote despite this, and in general his strategy d1 was basically just pushing the people the consensus townreads agreed were probably scum. i don't really know what this strategy means for his alignment and have no experience with this kind of play, but it's very co-operative! he's asking a lot of questions of people and working with them. If anything he seems *less* co operative in the scumgame, because
- frog in the scumgame seems very... persistent, to put it mildly. a lot of his posts are basically just blank reads and i feel like he has made way too many posts that are some variant of 'we should eliminate yeet' on day 1. he's play acting about having strong reads, i guess. i'm not sure scum frog would play scum the same way in every game, but maybe it means something somehow?? idk im kinda struggling to find much meaning in this

basically frog is one of the people i have no baseline expectations of and i'm not confident meta on him will actually be useful because i don't understand him at all. i think there are differences between the two games but nothing clearing

I think the difference in compliance is significant and I'm a lot more likely to double down as scum. For example, if scum!Frog wanted something different than what scamper wanted in 5645 then my trajectory since then lacks the persistence of trying to push an alternate agenda through while under the pretense of "this is the optimal way to move forward."

In writing this, I realized that there is a strong scum motivation to Shea's play in that Shea is very much trying to push an alternate agenda forward on fire while under the pretense of "this is the optimal way to move forward", so unfortunately I believe Shea must be re-inducted into my solve as an honorable mention and I FoS them somewhere alongside fire or dease if S_S flips traitor instead of groupscum.

[Frogsterking]

Haha okay Shea, gigs up. I see what you did now. Well played.

[Frogsterking]

Menalque

high certainty

-> S_S

medium certainty

-> Shea

medium-low certainty

-> Dease

very low certainty

-> fire

very low certainty

PEdit:

You seem a little defensive, Shea. Getting concerned?

[Frogsterking]

Nero i can't believe youwere right about Shea

[Frogsterking]

I'm not sure if I was or not. Like I think his "no way I'd come in to bus gamma" is ??? and I think you could read a narrative where he doesn't hammer gamma d2 even when he had multiple chances to

I'm not sure either, I think it seems most likely at this point though

assuming

there are 5 scum left. I think he does a little research into players meta to get a sense for what they townread for and how town generally react to their slot.

PEdit:

What's the iconeum tell?

[Frogsterking]

interesting that both todays wagons have now parked on my vanity wagon while refusing to actually talk about each other (or be here) that much.

Not sure what it means but honestly I think it DOES point to maybe S-S

LAMIST, distancing from S_S without doing anything to push the elimination forward on either Menalque or S_S

[Frogsterking]

Damn Shea your scum game is scary, holy shit.

[Frogsterking]

interesting that both todays wagons have now parked on my vanity wagon while refusing to actually talk about each other (or be here) that much.

Not sure what it means but honestly I think it DOES point to maybe S-S

LAMIST, distancing from S_S without doing anything to push the elimination forward on either Menalque or S_S

You are truly staggeringly bad at mafia

I think this goes against your character you portray when you say not to be ableist or whatever against people's intelligence. I think there's a motivation here to get me to doubt in my ability which is believable from Town!shea but seems to be a little bit too defensive and on the nose considering real Town!Shea is under no real pressure of losing the game here if I push his slot.

[Frogsterking]

What's the iconeum tell?

two major competing wagons consistently refusing to vote for one another, even when it would make sense from a survivalistic-pov, point towards them being s/s

I was kind of considering this to be not really applicable because its S_S specifically and he usually just wouldn't vote in that situation regardless.

But I think him voting fireisred changes my thoughts there considerably.

which is why i specifically edited the post to reflect s_s's vote there, yes.

on one hand, i am liking what s_s is doing. on the other, i know that earlier today, while i was taking a walk, i was thinking how scum!s_s doesn't necessarily make *sense* because scum!s_s would have an idea on what he has to do to get townread, and he was obviously not doing that (e.g. being unhelpful when you asked him for a new solving strategy or wtv), and that didn't quite make sense. however, now that he's gone into doing traditionally townier stuff...

like. i kinda feel gross saying this, because i don't wanna *discourage* possible town!s_s from solving. but i'd be lying if i said the thought didn't cross my mind.

This whole post matches my thoughts pretty much exactly.

This is an attempt to pocket/subvert Datisi.

[Frogsterking]

interesting that both todays wagons have now parked on my vanity wagon while refusing to actually talk about each other (or be here) that much.

Not sure what it means but honestly I think it DOES point to maybe S-S

LAMIST, distancing from S_S without doing anything to push the elimination forward on either Menalque or S_S

You are truly staggeringly bad at mafia

I think this goes against your character you portray when you say not to be ableist or whatever against people's intelligence. I think there's a motivation here to get me to doubt in my ability which is believable from Town!shea but seems to be a little bit too defensive and on the nose considering real Town!Shea is under no real pressure of losing the game here if I push his slot.

As either alignment I think I would find you pushing me annoying and not much more because I think your scum finding methods are not better than random chance and I don't particularly feel like its worthwhile to do anything to them besides just dismiss them off hand.

Like I feel very strongly that if I were scum here I would not care about you pushing me at all except in the sense that it makes the thread kind of unpleasant to read.

I believe this is a good example of "taking a lot of words to say absolutely nothing."

[Frogsterking]

I think the dynamic that's emerging in this game is that S_S and Shea are unable to communicate to each other directly but have "found" each other as traitor and groupscum, and have reached a state emotionally where they've already accepted they're likely to lose the game and are enjoying playing scum together and posting in the thread messing with the Town.

@Dats

Am I tinfoiling here or is that a logical deduction, considering you probably have more insight into how scum approach survival in tough games like this than I do?

[Frogsterking]

I think the dynamic that's emerging in this game is that S_S and Shea are unable to communicate to each other directly but have "found" each other as traitor and groupscum, and have reached a state emotionally where they've already accepted they're likely to lose the game and are enjoying playing scum together and posting in the thread messing with the Town.

@Dats

Am I tinfoiling here or is that a logical deduction, considering you probably have more insight into how scum approach survival in tough games like this than I do?

i'mma keep it real w you chief, i have no clue how you came to that conclusion from ~thread vibes~ because i don't get that feeling at all

It's more so based on the fact that Shea is

really

persistent about voting fire and it reminded me of my scum play from that large normal where I kept pushing Yeet and VP nonsensically to rile up the Town.

[Frogsterking]

i think his play here makes sense as scum most if mena and s_s are both town

Huh. I guess I'm getting off base then.

[Frogsterking]

Real time Point of View shot from Shea if he's telling the truth right now:

[Frogsterking]

I love that scene in warrior cats before fallen leaves goes into the tunnels to pass his sharpclaw evaluation only to be caught up in the flooding that kills him, leaving him eternally wandering the tunnel systems in an effort to escape and being in agony over his family abandoning him down there forever (Because the main protagonist cat went back in time to possess a cat that had a similar name to make his family follow their fate to live in the mountains)

Offtopic

Spoiler:

That reminds me I've got a hardcover copy of Firestar's Quest back in my parent's house somewhere and I want to go find it.

[Frogsterking]

@Ausuka

S_S brings up a reasonable point at first glance. Fortunately we can also check and see if there were any further attempts by Fireb to clarify the intent behind their claim directly to the scum team:

Why do we need to get into shitfights
This is too good a playerlist to get into squabbles imo

Because its mafia. nuff said.

i can't believe no one reacted to my serious claim of vengeful

Why do we need to get into shitfights
This is too good a playerlist to get into squabbles imo

Because its mafia. nuff said.

i can't believe no one reacted to my serious claim of vengeful

Pretty sure I’ve played games that were solely goodvibes in the past

if ur going to tell lies make them more believable

@nero i feel like some of his early posts were sort of nudging you in fire's way to see how you'd react to try to read you

i was def not reaction testing nero

although CMM I do want to know who those other people are still

OK I read back some and ISOd some folks
I think there's scum in:
Ari, marci, the eira slot, frog, firered
I need to read marci's iso because it was all incidental stuff from reading other folks'.
I think your push on FB is wrong but useful and I like your play.
My Datisi read I think is wrong for now and I'm gonna move my vote. Later stuff certainly appears to be working toward a solve. Page 28 interactions with FB aside but I thing ye all talked about that enough.
I thought also maybe skip and scamp had scum between them but then actually skitter's iso looked pretty good and I haven't looked at scamp properly yet.
HEMs early stuff I thought town and also VP but a few things struck me as off from both and I would like to look back properly at both.
I don't particularly think FB is town but I can wait for him to kick into gear for now and he's done enough that I am not auto scumreading so I don't want to vote there right now.
I am interested in seeing more of Xof's iso dives to see what kind of content is there
I will look at some stuff in the morning. I'm trying to just chuck down rough notes so I don't have to start fresh so I appreciate this is a bit halfhazard.

RN I like Datisi, Nero, and GL.

VOTE: Ari

I disagree heavily with this. I neither think his push on me was useful and I don't think he should believe it was. And I am not getting why you saw it useful.

Actually more i think about that post the more i don't like it. You better not be scum conman.

pedit frogster hey buddy how u doing. I don't care about gamma. But ur welcome to continue talking about them as much as you want. I am here to play, and if you poke me again I will poke harder back.

(Bolded, must read surrounding posts in thread to understand the context)

Firebringer is here to bail out Gamma or is just oblivious?

I am going to word this nicely.
But was this post made with the intention of trying to annoy me or just made without thinking?
I don't know.

I am going to calm down now because this post shouldn't have bugged me as much as it should and you probably didn't intend it to.

don't both answering last post. I have taken what the kids might call a chill pill.

I think FireB's odd entrance and exit beginning in 1772 and concluding in 1781 can be logically explained as a traitor signal to Gamma.

low certainty

on this theory at the moment but it has potential to increase.

[Frogsterking]

*concluding in 1784.

[Frogsterking]

also I think the part Frogster is calling attention to is the "I don't care about gamma", that seems like a possible signal to the scumteam that he's not a threat (if we're running with this traitor theory)

Thank you, GL!

[Frogsterking]

I'm finding it pretty hard to be invested in this game because of the long weekend in the US,

LOL

What's funny?

I still crack up about this sometimes.

[Frogsterking]

If I check the VC to see where fire ended up, they're going to be voting S_S?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: ss

Yes. And they've been gone for over a day.

[Frogsterking]

Menalque (high certain scum flip) -> S_S (moderate certain scum flip) -> Dease (low certain scum flip) -> fire (very low certain scum flip)

is where my head is at right now. If fire, Dease or S_S are Town then they need to Town about a little bit. Menalque is pretty obviously on anti spew so I'm not sure why it's rational to wait on them for another prodge when it was okay to push Tweet through yesterday.

[Frogsterking]

In my timezone Menalque posted a string of delicious nothing-burger late Wednesday morning, disappeared for 36 hours, popped in late Friday night and posted this:

Yo, sorry, I’ve been really busy and got ill and completely forgot this game existed

This is just a check in to say I’m still here, I will be around more later

and has disappeared for another 16 hours and counting. I'm looking forward to Menalque's return in 20 hours so we can read about how their sick dog peed on their laptop and they're gonna be super active but they have to run to the store to pick up some meds for their dog and their new laptop hasn't come in from newegg etc.

I'm finding it pretty hard to be invested in this game because of the long weekend in the US,

LOL

What's funny?

I still crack up about this sometimes.

If Menalque is ambitious they can try to top this for funniest line of the game. 6839 is too cliché.

[Frogsterking]

disappeared for 36 hours

My bad, Menalque disappeared for ~60 hours because they got an extra day due to the mod getting sick (Wednesday morning - Friday evening FMPOV.) That's too bad 6839 is the best they could come up with after all that time to make up an excuse.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Datisi

[Frogsterking]

I don't think Mena would make up being sick as an excuse

It's sort of frustrating sure but I'm willing to wait for it

The upside of being optimistic and trusting by temperament is that it's easier to see the good in other players and you're less likely to get sucked into pointless shit fights with other Townies. The downside of being optimistic and cooperative by temperament is that you're more likely to get sucked into obvious bull shit. Overall I'd be tempted to choose optimistic and trusting over pessimistic and paranoid but we don't have a choice about that and this is one of the few situations where my shitty temperament is actually conducive to effective Town play.

[Frogsterking]

I hardclaim combined gunsmith rolecop.

On night 1 I targeted Datisi and he doesn't have a gun and he is a doctor. Presumably this makes him town because doctors are always town.

On night 2 I targeted scamper. He has a gun and his role is strongman. However I don't think we should eliminate him because he's funny.

LOL

[Frogsterking]

I mean, I'm not an idiot. I don't think getting sick is obvious bullshit at all, really. It happens pretty often to me and has affected me in mafia before. I also don't think Menalque is the kind of person who's not capable of posting as scum.

I know you're not an idiot in fact I suspect you're pretty smart, I was implying you're optimistic (due to extraversion) and trusting (due to agreeableness) and therefore more likely to make an overly positive assessment of Menalque's play. For example:

• 1) If Menalque isn't posting because he got sick, why did he also say he's been busy and forgot about the game in 6855? That implies he doesn't feel being sick is a sufficient justification for his level of activity and that his sickness isn't severe enough to impair any of his other regular activities.
  
  2) If Menalque isn't solving because he's too sick, why did he make 32 posts which make no progress toward achieving any reads or resolution toward his own understanding of the game state? Do you think he was already sick but didn't realize and was too cognitively impaired to behave like he was Town? I don't.

Menalque is lying by saying he's sick whether or not his sickness is real because his narrative about being too sick to post is intended deliberately to mislead us about his real reason for not posting.

[Frogsterking]

I have a response.

[Frogsterking]

Is this normal behavior from Town!Menalque? Are they Mala's brother or something?

[Frogsterking]

Dease suspicious behavior is reinforcing my belief in the scum flip FYI.

[Frogsterking]

Dease why did you lurk out and then pop in here all casual to get your vote on the Menalque wagon?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Dease

[Frogsterking]

it's not uncommon from either menalques in the recent years.

Can you elaborate? Like is disappearing for 60 hours and not scum hunting or defending themselves when they are here normal for them?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Menalque

i asked for no hammer until mena is back.

Ah, sorry.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: S_S

How long are we waiting?

Dease suspicious behavior is reinforcing my belief in the scum flip FYI.

Dease why did you lurk out and then pop in here all casual to get your vote on the Menalque wagon?

And then vote S_S instead? What are you doing..

[Frogsterking]

Can you elaborate? Like is disappearing for 60 hours and not scum hunting or defending themselves when they are here normal for them?

if he's sick, then yeah, i can see town-him playing like this.

not saying i townread him in any capacity here. but, do i think he's 100% always scum? no. and i know town-mena can both (1) solve very well, and (2) be an absolute pain in the ass of scum that's trying to misyeet him.

so i am not letting a quiet misyeet go through when it's possible we're dealing with town-mena.

This is a similar line of reasoning to what caused Koba to townbin Andres D1 in that Bunnies game you were just complaining about.

"Yeah he lurks out as Town and is really good as Town so let's keep giving them chances to prove they're Town, nothing will go wrong."

[Frogsterking]

k

i think SS is in his town meta because as scum he kinda feels different energy wise


and andres i think is also in town meta even tho i havent seen his scum game - but ill leave him alive for 1 day regardless cuz he gets fearkilled a lot bc he really gets stronger as the game goes on

i'm vetoing SS and andres sorry

frog ur tinfoiling shit because of the "it feels too easy to be a scum wagon" feel

and i get that feel

ive been feeling that too

but its just really

that easy

andres is like never caught up rofl


SS i could reread to make sure im not wrong but im pretty consistently good at reading SS as ive caught scum him in 2 recent games(well, 1 from spec chat)

tho
uh

tbf i caught him cuz he complained about something that is unfair to scum lol

so maybe my scumdar on him is just when he exits his townrange

ok well andres' opening is exactly what he would post as town and ive been wrong on him before posting awkward stuff like this as town

like take it from someone who incorrectly tunneled andres while having a perfect PoE (large 236)

VOTE: Menalque

[Frogsterking]

jesus fucking christ i hate that i actual have to explain this basic shit to you, but

we are not in day one. i am not asking to let mena stay alive for five more ingame days while he jerks around prodging. we have 6 irl days until deadline. that is enough time for him to either start posting, or fucking die. waiting for a player that is STRONG AS TOWN, BEFORE WE MINDLESSLY YEET HIM, IS OPTIMAL.

AND -- not yeeting andres in that game just for being lurky on d1 was also optimal. *and* we would've won the game much sooner had you not derailed the thread and helped to that speedyeet on skitter. so i REALLY don't think you're the one to talk here and be drawing such shit faulty conclusions on "optimal" play.

You want a moment to reassess what you just said or do you want to get railed with real life?

[Frogsterking]

like, frogster, buddy, you are not a god at this game. you can be certain mena is scum, and sure, if he is then yeeting him immediately is probably +town ev. but guess what: YOU ARE NOT A GOD. you don't always have correct reads. you just don't. and going against what the literal confirmed town is telling you is optimal, because you're just that egoistic, is atrocious. this is a team game. the optimal thing we need to do right now is wait for a potentially town play to start townspewing and/or solving.

pedit: i said what i said. it's not formatted the best because i'm tired, but i stand behind it.

You're projecting at the moment, are you able to realize that or not?

[Frogsterking]

like, frogster, buddy, you are not a god at this game. you can be certain mena is scum, and sure, if he is then yeeting him immediately is probably +town ev. but guess what: YOU ARE NOT A GOD. you don't always have correct reads. you just don't. and going against what the literal confirmed town is telling you is optimal, because you're just that egoistic, is atrocious. this is a team game. the optimal thing we need to do right now is wait for a potentially town play to start townspewing and/or solving.

pedit: i said what i said. it's not formatted the best because i'm tired, but i stand behind it.

You're projecting at the moment, are you able to realize that or not?

Like I see signs you have insight sometimes and other times I don't and I don't want to waste my time, so like what % are you willing to consider that you're projecting onto me?

[Frogsterking]

We make better choices when we listen to each other's takes but if you aren't willing to listen to my takes then I'm skeptical sheeping your takes is actually +EV for me because my reads are very good when I am not on tilt.

[Frogsterking]

And I am currently very much untilted.

[Frogsterking]

i don't see how any of that can be projection.

Okay thank you, I will not continue further and I apologize for tilting you. UNVOTE: Menalque

[Frogsterking]

We make better choices when we listen to each other's takes but if you aren't willing to listen to my takes then I'm skeptical sheeping your takes is actually +EV for me because my reads are very good when I am not on tilt.

[citation needed]

Skim read Bunnies D1 if you want to see why my ego is that my reads are +EV and I'm often tempted to ignore other players reads even if they're good players and skim read D2 onward if you want to see why Datisi just wants me to shut up the hell up.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

As for my claim about accuracy improving when integrated,

There were a number of times Datisi helped improve my takes, like here:

i dont see lap voting me with scum!andre already there, if u look at the earlier VC. i thought newbscum were paranoid about distancing.

for what it's worth, out of reasons to consider andres town, this doesn't feel like an actually good one, i don't think the fact andres was memevoting you would make lap not want to vote there if they're partnered

It was irrelevant in that game since I caught all the scum D1 anyway and my play deteriorated explosively after that for a variety of reasons including mental health. The pattern still holds though that insight into how scum buddies are likely to approach different scenarios is a good example of when I want to listen to Datisi's takes over my own.

Here's an example of this happening again in this game:

frog, can you explain why irrel/firebringer/dannflor are scum and what do you think about my dann unaligned w baltar theory

I can't explain why, and I decided I'm going to sheep your theory. VOTE: Something_Smart

___

@obscure

Do you mind if I call you Giles (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?) I mean that in a good way, I like that show and character. I'm imagining Giles is the one obscured within the ninja avatar.
___

I'm townlocking marci. I suggest not voting out marci.

Caption here

Also I'm not going to speculate on someone being sick or not. I assume if mena says hes sick than he is sick, I do still find the phrasing "I completely forgot about this game." to be unlikely.

I don't think someone would replace into a game and then immediately forget about it especially considering the pressure on the slot.

So yeah, believe sick, don't believe forgot about game.

I agree and my point is that they're still lying about being sick even if it's technically accurate because they included that fact in a list of excuses for not playing which were written to conceal that they're avoiding posting anything which can be traced back to their partners. They're also consciously aware of the fact that informing us they are sick may manipulate us into waiting longer on them or switching targets. Whether or not they are truly sick is irrelevant to the point I'm making and anyone who claims otherwise is inaccurately twisting my reasons for suspecting Menalque.

[Frogsterking]

Idk dude speculating about someone's health just feels kind of gross and i just wish you wouldn't do it at all in any capacity.

Are you trolling?

[Frogsterking]

Idk dude speculating about someone's health just feels kind of gross and i just wish you wouldn't do it at all in any capacity.

Are you trolling?

I'll interpret a non-answer as a yes. I don't mind if your trolling is self-aware but if you don't perceive yourself to be trolling I have a mild issue with what you're writing here and I want you to stop.

[Frogsterking]

I think you're doing it to do a pro town thing but like...you know?

This is how I interpret it as well.

[Frogsterking]

You're off to a great start Menalque.

[Frogsterking]

Menalque?

[Frogsterking]

I hope you get better soon mena and you can get some rest

I hope you can play soon but like recovering is more important obvs

Head has finally cleared overnight so I’m able to actually focus again, thanks Ausuka

That's why you're now unable focus on the game long enough to have any reads? What was it like before?



Trolling alert: spoilered for fire

Spoiler:

Menalque must be Town, there's no way scum would

intentionally

make up something unlikely to be true, it would only draw attention to themselves. Notice how he preys on Ausuka, the weakest link against AtE. The fact he's emotionally manipulating the most naive player on our team is a sign he's Definitely Town because scum!Menalque would never play to his win condition ever, that's why he's so good. I'm no expert on Menalque meta, but I imagine this is +Town for him and best play is to wait 2000 hours and document the progression of his excuse-making over time because that's typical Townplay for Menalque.

VOTE: Frogsterking

[Frogsterking]

What's up, Dease? Talking to Menalque?

[Frogsterking]

What did you guys talk about, Dease?

[Frogsterking]

Menalque -> Dease -> S_S -> fire if game hasn't ended for some reason. You're welcome.

high certainty.

[Frogsterking]

why is dease scum again, other than not voting menalque when you wanted him to?

fireisred warning

Spoiler:

Don't mind me I'm insane clearly and just imagining things. I didn't just see any activity from Dease which could be construed as suspicious relative to Menalque's appearance.

[Frogsterking]

Fwiw, I don’t remember the last time I played a scumgame where people actually…. discussed stuff in the scumchat

Hey Dease, can you elaborate on this in depth and what motivated you to post this when you pop online again? You know, online, like when you were trying to discuss stuff in the scumchat with Menalque just now?

[Frogsterking]

It's okay Datisi just rule that out as me being crazy and blame me in 6 months for being so annoying I prevented Town from realizing Dease is partners with Menalque.

[Frogsterking]

There seemed to be a lot of posts at the time that were based on the assumption that there would be some sort of coaching etc. in the scumchat

I've tried telling Menalque to claim odd-night friendly neighbour but he doesn't want to

why is dease scum again, other than not voting menalque when you wanted him to?

It's okay Datisi just rule that out as me being crazy and blame me in 6 months for being so annoying I prevented Town from realizing Dease is partners with Menalque.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.5.29

Clearly it's rational to conclude that I am extremely arrogant to compensate for having no idea what I'm talking about and we should continue to Not Seriously Consider whether I know how to play these stupid games.

[Frogsterking]

Game is solved for me, sorry you haven't figured it out yet Datisi. I'm sure it was my fault for being so annoying and that was why you didn't realize Dease is partners with Menalque.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Menalque

I hardclaim Tracker with an N1 guilty on Dease and an N2 guilty on Menalque. Not retracting for the rest of the game. Come on Town, shake a leg.

[Frogsterking]

i mean maybe i'm misjudging how other people feel but i'm just like

mafiascum has long deadlines, if we spam needlessly and get exhausted it's bad but can't we all just like... take a holiday and do other things while we wait for mena

i don't think that really hurts us

idk

Menalque visited marci N2. I breadcrumbed my guilty claim by mentioning marci's death a million times.

[Frogsterking]

frogs, buddy. mena isn't escaping anywhere. can you please stop spamming.

Nah vote Menalque today and Dease tomorrow. If I'm lying chain lim me.

[Frogsterking]

I'm Tracker Menalque visited marci N2 and Dease visited whoever died N1. You're welcome. Shake a leg Town.

[Frogsterking]

i mean maybe i'm misjudging how other people feel but i'm just like

mafiascum has long deadlines, if we spam needlessly and get exhausted it's bad but can't we all just like... take a holiday and do other things while we wait for mena

i don't think that really hurts us

idk

Menalque visited marci N2. I breadcrumbed my guilty claim by mentioning marci's death a million times.

and you didn't push the guilty you had on d2 at all. sure.

I pushed D2 like mad yesterday as soon as he popped up, you would know that if you read the game.

[Frogsterking]

i mean maybe i'm misjudging how other people feel but i'm just like

mafiascum has long deadlines, if we spam needlessly and get exhausted it's bad but can't we all just like... take a holiday and do other things while we wait for mena

i don't think that really hurts us

idk

Menalque visited marci N2. I breadcrumbed my guilty claim by mentioning marci's death a million times.

and you didn't push the guilty you had on d2 at all. sure.

I pushed D2 like mad yesterday as soon as he popped up, you would know that if you read the game.

I pushed Dease D2 like mad yesterday you could easily tell I had a guilty on him if I got NKed.

[Frogsterking]

Me breadcrumbing my N1 guilty on Dease like 50 times D2:

Dease is probably scum.

Interesting that DeasV was also in that game. DV could you compare and contrast the play of frogsterking in that game with this one?

Yeah, it's almost as though they have no interest in trying to sort my slot lmao.

and that their scum game gets weaker as the game goes on, which is why i'm fine townbinning him for now and worrying about him later, if needed.

I forgot about my fatal flaw.

its also weird how frogsterking is today talking about how people voting conmanmick are suspicious

I'm gonna need to see a source on that.

what's scummy about deas's posting today to you?

I believe 3333 is scum AI and I'll try to summarize why. In addition I had a spine-tingle feeling when reading Dease interaction with Shea last night and I'm assuming *someone* else can explain that without sounding crazy like I will.

Historically I’ve actually been a lot better at identifying scum as a vig or serial killer. Frogsterking is the sort of player I would shoot if I were a vig, hence my vote.

I consider this a non-answer. Dease has only played one game with me and I was scum.

Historically I’ve actually been a lot better at identifying scum as a vig or serial killer. Frogsterking is the sort of player I would shoot if I were a vig, hence my vote.

I consider this a non-answer. Dease has only played one game with me and I was scum.

In my experience scum players tend to lean into "oh Frog is anti Town/doesn't make sense" as an excuse to plant a wagon on me. I believe the fact Dease has only played one game with me (where I was scum) would make them more curious about sorting my slot in this game if they were Town. Also, unlike some players like Dats, fire or S_S, Dease wasn't present in any games where I went full A-WOL as town!Frog, so I find it difficult to believe Dease actually thinks brain-off killing Frog is a solid approach to sorting the game.

Historically I’ve actually been a lot better at identifying scum as a vig or serial killer. Frogsterking is the sort of player I would shoot if I were a vig, hence my vote.

I consider this a non-answer. Dease has only played one game with me and I was scum.

In my experience scum players tend to lean into "oh Frog is anti Town/doesn't make sense" as an excuse to plant a wagon on me. I believe the fact Dease has only played one game with me (where I was scum) would make them more curious about sorting my slot in this game if they were Town. Also, unlike some players like Dats, fire or S_S, Dease wasn't present in any games where I went full A-WOL as town!Frog, so I find it difficult to believe Dease actually thinks brain-off killing Frog is a solid approach to sorting the game.

Why do you not think my vote on you is a way of sorting you?

I think with Frogster there is risk of dismissing him as town because he’s weird (which is much like what happened in my previous game with him)

the thing with Frog is I find his reads to be genuine and largely aligning with mine so I don't really see what reason there is to be suspicious of him and don't really remember any good ones being presented

Oh the main reason for me is that I don’t think there’s anything that town about him.

Historically I’ve actually been a lot better at identifying scum as a vig or serial killer. Frogsterking is the sort of player I would shoot if I were a vig, hence my vote.

I consider this a non-answer. Dease has only played one game with me and I was scum.

In my experience scum players tend to lean into "oh Frog is anti Town/doesn't make sense" as an excuse to plant a wagon on me. I believe the fact Dease has only played one game with me (where I was scum) would make them more curious about sorting my slot in this game if they were Town. Also, unlike some players like Dats, fire or S_S, Dease wasn't present in any games where I went full A-WOL as town!Frog, so I find it difficult to believe Dease actually thinks brain-off killing Frog is a solid approach to sorting the game.

Why do you not think my vote on you is a way of sorting you?

I think with Frogster there is risk of dismissing him as town because he’s weird (which is much like what happened in my previous game with him)

the thing with Frog is I find his reads to be genuine and largely aligning with mine so I don't really see what reason there is to be suspicious of him and don't really remember any good ones being presented

Oh the main reason for me is that I don’t think there’s anything that town about him.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89719

Look at the D1 attack on town!Frog from scum!Radical Rat and scum!Greeting in the above game as an example.

Both scum!Rat and scum!Greeting use "Frog is anti-town/doesn't make sense" as an excuse to discredit me after correctly pressuring scum!Roden.

Frogster, I thought that this was a particularly proactive and useful post from S_S:

the S_S progression was kinda ??? and i don't really buy that he went from, like, 'no compelling reason to vote ss' to doing it so quickly.

what's the scum motivation for doing this?

Okay is that it?

You just asked me to quote anything, so I did.

If you wanted more than one thing you should have asked for more than one thing

This feels like a scum post to me.

My reservation with HEM is that I'm not sure that their play here is trying all that hard to look like town, which is the sense I have gotten from seeing HEM as scum previously. Here it seems more like they are just mucking around and having fun without actually caring all that much.
I'm interested in seeing the reaction to the wagon, but not all that interested in seeing HEM eliminated before that.

Posts like this make me think HEM will flip Town.

PEdit:

IDK I guess nothing changed? This feels like a go-nowhere question.

Quoting a post and saying "TOWN" seems like a different level of confidence from "good enough to pass for D2" (the latter of which implies that you would more likely consider eliminating HEM on a later day).

Also if you're basing your reads off the assumption that I'm scum, why not push for my elimination? HEM was more widely townread than me on Day 1. Maybe you could make it happen.

If you're accusing me of having wavering levels of self-efficacy then you caught me red-handed.

If you're accusing me of having wavering levels of self-efficacy then you caught me red-handed.

Can you rephrase this without any psych jargon?

(It doesn't make much sense tbh)

Sounds like a reading comprehension problem then.

Also if you're basing your reads off the assumption that I'm scum, why not push for my elimination?

IDK because I'm not that bad? This feels like another go-nowhere question.

VOTE: Dease

I'm not inflexible:


My cold read on Dease is that they're not vindictive, and I think Dease probably cares little enough about a single loss (Large Normal 238) that it's unlikely to cloud their reads. If my assumptions are correct then Dease progression on my slot is ...bad.

and im just not really convinced that he comes out of that wanting to vote frog? and then stays there while there's wagons on multiple other people in his poe, when he says he doesn't care much which one gets eliminated?

IF Dease or someone else can show that Town!Dease has a tendency to be vindictive, I can believe that Town!Dease was temporarily biased because of their prior experience with me.

I guess my biggest reason for thinking deas might be scum outside of the obvious not being here or seeming to care very much is like entirely tone. He has this sort of matter of fact I can't believe I have to explain this to you tone that feels not earnest and I associate it with scum quite a bit.

+1

I think there's also an absence of anger or indignation I would expect to see in a Townie being wrongfully accused in general.

PEdit:

I played with Dease and read one or two games they were in and I thought they came across as earnest.

I don’t think I could bring myself to feel angry about anything, let alone this game

Aw shucks

#5085 is well written, unfortunately it's from scum I THINK.

[Frogsterking]

I don't know guys there was a lot of subtlety about whether or not I tracked Dease N1. Pretty hard to tell if I'm a real investigative or not.

[Frogsterking]

I softed my N1 guilty like 50 times. I didn't realize this was the Newbie Queue.

[Frogsterking]

I have no desire to watch you struggle this simple solve Datisi.

[Frogsterking]

DV, you still around? I’ve browsed your ISO but I don’t rly understand your preference for an S_S lim

[Frogsterking]

fwiw also i did not visit "whoever died" n1

[Frogsterking]

Nice theater guys. Clap clap.

[Frogsterking]

Okay that's a pretty funny reads list, I can respect the humor in Menalque's scum game now.

[Frogsterking]

Hey CSF can you shoot me tonight to confirm my claim. Menalque+Dease aren't claiming some weird visit so it will confirm them both.

[Frogsterking]

Nice theater guys. Clap clap.

You’re tiresome

Meow.

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys my girlfriend just got in a car accident so I'm headed to the hospital and won't be able to post as much. Can you please push Mena + Dease through, it wins the game for us unless I don't understand how the roles work. I'll track S_S or fire ig

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: S_S

Flip here first imo i could see enalque or dease being tpr actually

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: menalque

eh idk

[Frogsterking]

Frog seems to not give even the faintest fucks about trying to appear town.

Yes.

I do not know if frog necessarily knows what "appearing town" means though so its kind of hard to evaluate.

Okay.

Menalque -> Dease ->

S_S

-> fire if game hasn't ended for some reason. You're welcome.

high certainty.

VOTE: menalque

Switch fire and Dease maybe, fire had a bizarre EoD convo with Shea 7032.

I had gone to bed feeling pretty strongly about Frog!scum because like... what town has the motivation to play that hard right now

but idk im feeling less hot about it in the cold light of day

we just kill menalque yeah?

Tinfoil jail *bop*

Dannflor's play this game is increasingly reminding me of my own scum game, so players who convinced me to stop pushing Dann should weigh in if this is all old hat for town!Dann.

I can't be present in the thread due to IRL health emergencies, my slot eats pity and souls etc.

[Frogsterking]

im prepared to flash wagon fire with x treme prejudice

also, flash wagon menalque

[Frogsterking]

yesss i love being prejudized

i can't like srspost rn but i plan to this afternoon

my reads are all mushy and id like to try to fix that

scum are trying to goad this Town into killing them in order to end their suffering

PEdit:

Menalque's reads list is a comedy gold mine. I'm sure every player can look at it for a few minutes and come up with their own unique and valid reason why it's implausible to come from Town

[Frogsterking]

Mess. Are three masons Normal?

@Ausuka are three masons normal

[Frogsterking]

yes

on second thought i feel like

any discussion regarding masons

is probably a bad idea

but yeah you can check the mafiawiki site to see what counts as normal fwiw

I'm actually thinking the opposite and am considering casing the remaining Masons if they continue to make shit use of their role and refuse to push the Mena -> fire -> Dann solve through.

[Frogsterking]

why is fire now in between them?

You are thinking of Dease. I swapped him and fire because of fire's EoD3 and swapped Dease and Dann because Dann is playing my lurk + troll + tinfoil scum game and it's becoming more effective the more apathetic everyone becomes. Menalque should be pushed through before any more tinfoiling happens. You said you wanted Menalque to "town it the fuck up" and Menalque never did that. Now...Menalque is still alive. Why is Menalque not being voted? Menalque has been given every chance and refuses to do anything resembling a Town Beast. If anything Menalque has demonstrated they are a Scum Beast because they ended yesterday with only 2 votes and I'm the only one currently pushing them with any fervor.

[Frogsterking]

oh, that said dann, not dease. i thought you were gonna be at least a bit consistent with the tracker claim, but sure.

what about fire's eod3 is so bad that he's become your 2nd choice?

They had a bizarre conversation with Shea which did not look like a Townie thought process (7032) and their vote movements looked partnered with Mena because they unvoted him whenever his wagon was close and voted him again once it was clear thr S_S wagon was going through. Fire's D2 vote movements also looked partnered with Gamma. Fire's read progression on myself and Mena make no sense and their read on S_S looks opportunistic (and if they scum read him why switch off his wagon at the last second?)

[Frogsterking]

Tell me why they're implausible to come from town. Should be easy given how certain you seem about it.

Off the top of my head after looking at it for ~15 seconds:


Menalque hasn't played with me before and usually people are confused by me the first time they interact with me, yet they listed me as Town. S_S was difficult to read as well and they also listed him as Town. They listed Nero as ??? even though he's an easy sort by looking at his activity level and skimming his ISO. They listed Dease as a scum which looks opportunistic since I was pushing them at the time for reasons which no one understands.

What was the point of doing that? It's a ridiculous and unbelievable list.

[Frogsterking]

oh, that said dann, not dease. i thought you were gonna be at least a bit consistent with the tracker claim, but sure.

what about fire's eod3 is so bad that he's become your 2nd choice?

They had a bizarre conversation with Shea which did not look like a Townie thought process (7032) and their vote movements looked partnered with Mena because they unvoted him whenever his wagon was close and voted him again once it was clear thr S_S wagon was going through. Fire's D2 vote movements also looked partnered with Gamma. Fire's read progression on myself and Mena make no sense and their read on S_S looks opportunistic (and if they scum read him why switch off his wagon at the last second?)

Tell me why they're implausible to come from town. Should be easy given how certain you seem about it.

Off the top of my head after looking at it for ~15 seconds:


Menalque hasn't played with me before and usually people are confused by me the first time they interact with me, yet they listed me as Town. S_S was difficult to read as well and they also listed him as Town. They listed Nero as ??? even though he's an easy sort by looking at his activity level and skimming his ISO. They listed Dease as a scum which looks opportunistic since I was pushing them at the time for reasons which no one understands.

What was the point of doing that? It's a ridiculous and unbelievable list.

Signal boosting the good posts.

[Frogsterking]

The opportunistic point is SO bad because it ignores lots of other ways in which scum!mena could have been opportunistic and chose not to be, such as scum reading me, such as town reading Nero who was pretty universally town read. Such as scum reading the counter wagon.

This is just really bad logic.

So we both agree his Townreads are ridiculous. Got it. Why are we fighting again?

[Frogsterking]

Nice shitposts, fire

[Frogsterking]

What's up?

[Frogsterking]

leaning towards frog/mena/GL rn btw but deas is still a possibility

Hilarious. You and Mena make up funny reads.

[Frogsterking]

why's it funny

Because you've given up pretending to fake a read trajectory and are just hoping no one reads your iso. Also GL and I are obvtown. Also, you avoid voting Mena anytime the wagon gets close to going through.

[Frogsterking]

We're fighting because your reasoning is extremely bad and its annoying me.

Sounds like a personal problem which has nothing to do with me.

[Frogsterking]

I mean, things are more complicated than that. Being sick makes it harder to operate, not impossible. If you're sick and have things to do, it's especially hard to think about mafia, and it can slip from your mind. Mena can be scum and still telling the truth

. I like him and think he would act honourably by not lying about this.

In the meantime, like, I guess I can iso fire and check for associatives with Gamma which is something I probably should have done already but I got distracted by Azelf.

i mean maybe i'm misjudging how other people feel but i'm just like

mafiascum has long deadlines, if we spam needlessly and get exhausted it's bad but can't we all just like...

take a holiday and do other things while we wait for mena

i don't think that really hurts us

idk

Pure Genius:

Wait for Mena because we like them.

Take a holiday vs kill scum

How can it hurt us?

[Frogsterking]

tl;dr this conversation

why's it funny

town post

scum post

town post

[Frogsterking]

what about my iso prevents me from having my current reads

I feel like your iso has reached a point where if we had Town Masons who knew what they were doing it wouldn't matter what reads you are currently throwing around.

[Frogsterking]

what does that mean

that doesn't answer my question at all

*activates innocent child*

[Frogsterking]

we had Town Masons

I'm referring to the ones who are currently alive BTW, not the good one who died last night.

[Frogsterking]

This reread doesn't feel real to me.

Or at the very least it doesn't match with how I expect rereads to look.

What did you think of my debate with fire, Shea?

[Frogsterking]

frog might be scum as well actually

im on like page 64 right after he replaced in tho so idk maybe these opinions change later

can you elaborate more on where/how you're seeing this?

I'm going to debate you, Dann, and Shea will judge.

[Frogsterking]

Am I crazy? Has anyone seen a town reread before that looked like this?

I think I'm crazy because neither fire nor Mena have been voted out yet.

[Frogsterking]

You're a huge part of the reason fire wasn't voted out yesterday. You and everyone else who insisted that we had exactly two options.

I MADE fire

[Frogsterking]

uhh, who said that frogs can post like this as scum, was it @shea? (if it wasn't, whoever it was) do you still hold that view? bc i am really struggling to imagine scum-frogs posting with this much... i don't know non-rude words to describe it, but you know what i mean.

Friendly Neighborhood Frogsterking breaking the setup by posting such Awful Takes that scum are forced to play against an extra IC.

[Frogsterking]

I also had a theory Frog was scum because he was seemingly the only one not super demotivated by yesterday

but it seems that meta does not support that

Too little faith in my abilities

Do you think frog/Mena are partnered, and he is hard bussing Mena?

Too much faith in my abilities lol