Datisi's Café [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

Btw Roden is scum here pretty sure.

Because they didn’t read carefully enough?

Btw I’m rusty since I haven’t played in 4 months, so bear with me.

[Andresvmb]

My choice of % will vary between 0 and 100 every day.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Andresvmb]

Btw Roden is scum here pretty sure.

Because they didn’t read carefully enough?

Btw I’m rusty since I haven’t played in 4 months, so bear with me.

yeah i can imagine it would be difficult having to come back and play scum

it's ok take it slow i'll call you out later

I don’t mind your self-confidence - just make sure it doesn’t cloud your judgment.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: mastina

Do you want to expand upon this? I wanted to put this vote down when I first saw the explanation (announcing that you’ll be 0% productive could be a ploy to get the Town PRs to be more cautious with their use of productivity points), but it’s a bit brazen to start no?

[Andresvmb]

then do it

I’ll do what I want thanks.

[Andresvmb]

@Andre

why are you voting ydrasse atm

Because they’ve filled the thread with nothing but hot air so far.

[Andresvmb]

Btw Roden is scum here pretty sure.

Because they didn’t read carefully enough?

Btw I’m rusty since I haven’t played in 4 months, so bear with me.

No, because I've played with Roden enough to know that this isn’t Rodens towngame.
Roden is also not likely to genuinely make the mistake as town.
Beyond that, the contribution is generically a scum one regardless of the above.

I don’t like the assumption about the kinds of mistakes Roden (or anyone else) can make. I’ve seen intelligent players make mental errors or misread rules all the time.
Not sure about the generic Scum contribution part, but that’s your take so won’t argue with you on that.
I don’t trust arguments based on meta all that much, so that part is not super convincing to me. How many games have you two played together you think?

[Andresvmb]

Is it your goal to play the game by using the largest amount of links possible and very few words?

[Andresvmb]

Well, because we were on course for an Ircher lim for presumably good reason, and when I checked in I saw a bunch of strange stuff, and the strangest one was him posting a list with mostly reasonable people at the bottom, imho.

VOTE: Ircher

I'll go back to Ircher, actually. L-1
But more tomorrow when I'm sober if nobody hammers.

I think this slot is Scum too actually. Up to where I read, I wouldn’t move my vote on Ydrasse, but I’ll keep reading.

If Ircher flips Town, blow this up.

[Andresvmb]

ydrasse how do you feel about your wagon

Trewly i do not care

Since when do you not care about votes on you? Or engaging with the people voting you? I just don’t remember you posting like this when we’ve played in the past. Do I have it wrong? Like why the nonchalance? I usually get irritated when I’m read wrongly and people get all stubborn about it. I remember you caring a bit. What happened? Is there anything specific to this game?

[Andresvmb]

I like Nero for Town. Which is a good thing because fighting Scum!Nero is a horrible experience.

[Andresvmb]

s_s, furtive, klick, peta (..?), uncrowned (.....?)

i work with these as main comfy town for now

UNVOTE:

Did you explain why you changed your mind on Uncrowned already? Don’t answer if you have, I’ll find it. Otherwise, want to elaborate?

[Andresvmb]

I like Nero for Town. Which is a good thing because fighting Scum!Nero is a horrible experience.

This feels a bit too gullible if they expect Nero to be a challenging scum

Gullible? Haha how? I expressed that I think Nero is Scum. I also expressed relief because Nero is a difficult player sink as Scum. And they’re generally abrasive, so I would rather not have to deal with it. I also would add that I think Nero adds to the Town.

But maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying. Do you think Nero is fooling me and is Scum? Like what’s the take?

[Andresvmb]

I like Nero for Town. Which is a good thing because fighting Scum!Nero is a horrible experience.

This feels a bit too gullible if they expect Nero to be a challenging scum

Gullible? Haha how? I expressed that I think Nero is Scum. I also expressed relief because Nero is a difficult player sink as Scum. And they’re generally abrasive, so I would rather not have to deal with it. I also would add that I think Nero adds to the Town.

But maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying. Do you think Nero is fooling me and is Scum? Like what’s the take?

^Nero is Town.*

[Andresvmb]

I'm not here to get town reads. I'm here for the *experience*.

Sigh. This is the sort of shit I would be saying if I think I’m going to get killed and I’m Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m never here for the experience haha Mafia is a brutal game that makes me want to tear my hair out. I do it because I like to feel like my reading skills aren’t horrible and I also like the feeling of a victory I actually contributed to.

[Andresvmb]

But maybe that’s just me and people genuinely enjoy accusing others of lying or not making sense and getting screamed at in return.

[Andresvmb]

Why is Andres attitude the way it is from a single remark?

Should I be congratulating you when you take shots at me? Didn’t you call me gullible or did I miss that? My point was simply that I don’t think Nero is Scum, which is a good thing because they’re tough to deal with as Scum. You will have noticed that I didn’t say Nero is difficult to pinpoint as Scum. I would have hedged my remarks quite a bit more if that were the case. Since I didn’t understand what you meant, I asked you to clarify. You can get all upset about it if you want, and not answer, but that doesn’t help me figure out what you are.

[Andresvmb]

Why is Andres attitude the way it is from a single remark?

Should I be congratulating you when you take shots at me? Didn’t you call me gullible or did I miss that? My point was simply that I don’t think Nero is Scum, which is a good thing because they’re tough to deal with as Scum. You will have noticed that I didn’t say Nero is difficult to pinpoint as Scum. I would have hedged my remarks quite a bit more if that were the case. Since I didn’t understand what you meant, I asked you to clarify. You can get all upset about it if you want, and not answer, but that doesn’t help me figure out what you are.

I just think you have the attitude of someone who didn't walk into a good situation and vibes with negativity in an environment of logic.

That said, Klick makes it to townleans, and you to scumleans.

The attitude of someone who didn’t walk into a good situation? What does that even mean? Do you want to expand upon that? If I’m understanding you correctly, you think I’m sussing you in an effort to protect Ircher. That’s the argument yeah?

[Andresvmb]

I’m not as sold as others that assuming that the game is 17:4 instead of 16:5 is a sure indication that someone is Scum. I’m of the opinion that you would have seen Scum be more obvious about the assumption to try and avoid it being interpreted as a slip, but that’s my personal perspective. I was trying to focus more on contribution and tone, since this early I don’t think you can make any argument that is solidly supported by “logic”. But that’s my approach - I’m not pretending it’s better than anyone else’s approach.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t SR Nero. I don’t think I’ve ever said that.

[Andresvmb]

Okay you Ebwoped it, but then you said this

I don’t SR Nero. I don’t think I’ve ever said that.

Dirty backtrack

Wait, I’m confused. What backtrack?

[Andresvmb]

I think Nero is Town. What of anything that I’ve said makes you think I’ve changed my position on this?

[Andresvmb]

I made an error typing out my thoughts which I quickly corrected. If you’re going to argue that’s a backtrack, that’s a horrific position to adopt.

[Andresvmb]

I made an error typing out my thoughts which I quickly corrected. If you’re going to argue that’s a backtrack, that’s a horrific position to adopt.

Regardless, it's an interesting typo. You type way too much around that opinion for my taste, and the mistake is icing on the cake.

Hahaha okay. I think you’re Scum doubling down on a bad take. But I’ll stop arguing with you directly.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not opposed to flipping Ircher here but I'd like it acknowledged that a town flip means that scum was most likely to saw them slipping first...Because their perspective allowed them to.

This assumes that there really are 5 scum, then? Otherwise how would scum be more likely notice the mistake?

Good posting

Is it just me noticing that this slot has been utterly and completely useless? I don’t think so, and I don’t actually think it’s necessarily Scum, but c’mon now. This is worse than when I’m flaking on a game.

[Andresvmb]

The slot has two naked votes and that “good posting” post, and that’s literally it.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Vivax

I’m changing my mind on Ydrasse upon re-reading. They were actually engaging better than I gave them credit for.

[Andresvmb]

@Vivax, since you’re around, what do you make of Klick again?

[Andresvmb]

I would game that there’s one Scum in {Vivax, PenguinPower}. And mastina not dying is both expected and not a good sign.

[Andresvmb]

I would game that there’s one Scum in {Vivax, PenguinPower}. And mastina not dying is both expected and not a good sign.

why do you think penguin

I was re-reading the game and one of the things that caught my eye was how some of the votes moved around towards the beginning of the game after Ircher was asked about the assumption on how many Scum there were. Vivax was particularly over the top about trying to move the pressure away from Ircher without defending them directly (and if you read the progression there, it’s pretty horrific if you ask me). But PenguinPower does a bit the same thing. I’m talking about literally the first five pages or so, so it’s not that hard to check.

[Andresvmb]

Titus, Klick and furtiveglance I wouldn’t vote today.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Vivax

[Andresvmb]

Titus could have been bussing but you would have to think they were on top of Ircher’s case very aggressively and maybe? It’s possible the Scum decided to take alternative tracks in order to not all get lumped together, but I seriously doubt all of the Scum bailed on Ircher immediately.

[Andresvmb]

And I think 269 makes it unlikely Klick is Scum in my book.
After how agitated Vivax seemed to be getting about the focus on mechanics earlier in the game, it’s stuff like 302 that pings me.

These are some of the random thoughts I’ve had. PenguinPower’s vote for Ydrasse I think on page 5 might have been an attempt at piling on away from Ircher. I think that was the thought I had. But it’s not as obvious as Vivax.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, has your read on Ydrasse changed?

Yeah I called them Town before the day ended yesterday.

[Andresvmb]

@Roden yeah maybe. But you also have to make a decision as Scum. Either you push Ircher right then and there about a potential slip that Ircher may be able to get away from (I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in), or you hold off, and you position yourself around the flip that started seeming more and more inevitable as the day went on. Look at Vivax’s play and tell me that’s not what you see.

Look Vivax could have just been wrong and Town that’s always possible. But they were definitely the one player I thought was the Scummiest yesterday. It’s hard for me to look away right now.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also trying to be careful about tunneling, so I’ll re-read again and look for some other clues. We can also do this by process of elimination a bit. There’s a before and after the slip becoming inevitable. And I certainly think more of the Scum than less are on the wagon, if not all of them. Ircher just didn’t do a great job of defending themselves, and the summary of reads posts they put out were probably built to minimize information leakage. So I wouldn’t spend too much time thinking about those.

[Andresvmb]

As long as we achieve 1,275 points out of 1,700 points each day, we will be fine. If mastina is setting hers to 0%, then we need to average 80 points per player to avoid the extra night kills.

Is this just you guessing that this game is a 17:4, or did I miss that info somewhere, or?

Ircher hasn't been on since this. It totally assumes 17/4 whereas I assumed 16/5 like other large games I've seen.

@Vivax would you argue Scum makes this post? Like why the vote there?

[Andresvmb]

Lukewarm is really the player that asked the important blow up question first so unless that was planned (not likely) I wouldn’t vote there either.

[Andresvmb]

@Vivax, how much productivity does a shot cost?

[Andresvmb]

Actually, maybe don’t tell me.

[Andresvmb]

I need to think about whether it makes sense to kill a claimed Vig in these circumstances.

[Andresvmb]

P-edit: Always try to follow the guide of some fella called ace when vig. Kill coinflips early. Less wiggle room to push a mislim, and disencourage that type of play.

I think you don't understand how D1 went down.

How many larges how have you played?

Enough
But let's consider this: The ones who called it weird either don't reply (FG) or believe it (Fire)
While Luke goes on attack mode after not commenting, supposedly having no info whatsoever of how many extra kills scum had. At the very least, you'd have reason to assume Luke has an agenda or ulterior motive here.

Lukewarm is an absurdly bad slot to flip here, to be honest. Like I don’t believe you genuinely think that slot is decently likely to be Scum. Maybe I’m being very basic, but how is 588 + the early questioning not just disqualifying as a place to look today? I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

In the Titus/Vivax binary, then:

VOTE: Vivax

Titus COULD be scum, but Roden IS scum.

And Vivax is hard-town to me.

Everyone off the Ircher wagon except Roden, Fire, and Malakittens are hard-town to me. Malakittens is not locked, but still far more likely town than not.

Vivax is always town here, as are many members of the Ircher wagon.

While Titus is in the remainder which COULD be scum, it'd be a departure from her norm and thus is less likely.

Vivax v Titus as a dilemma thus has a high chance of being town-town and I therefore refuse to accept it.
IF there’s scum in there, it's Titus, but she's not the most likely to be scum.

I want you to explain why Vivax is hard Town to you. I’m not ruling it out by any means, but outside their implied claim (which is important I’ll admit), I find it hard to believe that you genuinely think they’re hard Town.

[Andresvmb]

But maybe that’s why and I’m overthinking it.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Lukewarm is really the player that asked the important blow up question first so unless that was planned (not likely) I wouldn’t vote there either.

Have you heard about the idea that scum see their scumbuddies slip in situations that the town wouldn't?

And how every time, the scum insist that they would've seen it as town, when actually, no, they wouldn't have?

Lukewarm is the MOST suspicious, not the least.

I think I understand where you’re coming from with that actually.

Look my view of the game just got blown up. The two Town that died yesterday I was positive on, particularly Nero Cain, and I do agree that BlueBloodedToffee is a very reasonable Vig shot, which means I need to clear Vivax in my head for now and abandon my view entirely. That also means that I need to listen to those that may have a better grasp of what’s going on while I recalibrate.

I’ll vote Roden for now.

VOTE: Roden

[Andresvmb]

Look my view of the game just got blown up. The two Town that died yesterday I was positive on, particularly Nero Cain

can you expand on this, i don't quite follow

I was beginning to trust Nero Cain pretty strongly, and unfortunately they were NK’ed (most likely), I was skeptical of the slip (and I was wrong), and the one player I most strongly suspected is probably Town via claim. I am assuming (as I think is most likely), that productivity did not drop below 50%. I don’t see the Scum shooting BBT there N1, but obviously if Vivax is full of shit, then they did. So, the few things I was trying to anchor my view of the game around are not here or are not reliable. Which means, I need to put in work.

[Andresvmb]

@Roden yeah maybe. But you also have to make a decision as Scum. Either you push Ircher right then and there about a potential slip that Ircher may be able to get away from (I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in), or you hold off, and you position yourself around the flip that started seeming more and more inevitable as the day went on. Look at Vivax’s play and tell me that’s not what you see.

Look Vivax could have just been wrong and Town that’s always possible. But they were definitely the one player I thought was the Scummiest yesterday. It’s hard for me to look away right now.

I think any scum who joined the Ircher wagon would do so nonchalantly, the slip would've panicked the scum team and they wouldn't be sure whether or not Ircher could get away with it in the moment. The pile up happened so quickly that scum would most likely feel too self-conscious to make a big deal out of it or make a hard push, in fear of coming off as informed.

If I had to guess, I'd say two scum on wagon, one scum off.

This does not at all square with your vote on Titus. Like not the least bit. Do you not see the inconsistency? Why aren’t you pressuring RCEnigma then?

[Andresvmb]

You’re using the NK to justify your vote, which is always suspect (it’s like you haven’t even considered that Scum make kills to confuse / frame the Town). But the single most important way you’re pointing to for identifying Scum in the game from day play conflicts directly with that vote. The fact that you’re not even acknowledging that is bizarre.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, if Roden is Town, I would say… {Titus, RCEnigma, Uncrowned} for Scum maybe?

[Andresvmb]

I’m taking an early guess on the Team just to see how ridiculous it looks after the game.

[Andresvmb]

You’re using the NK to justify your vote, which is always suspect (it’s like you haven’t even considered that Scum make kills to confuse / frame the Town). But the single most important way you’re pointing to for identifying Scum in the game from day play conflicts directly with that vote. The fact that you’re not even acknowledging that is bizarre.

I'm voting Titus because it's a read on how she plays the game as scum. She kills threats and stays low key. I can scum read her independently of how I think the scum team played around Ircher's slip. If you think that's a scummy thought process then you're gonna have to explain why because I don't get it.

I didn’t call it Scummy I called it odd.

Imagine I said that I think Scum went out of their way to defend Ircher. And then I voted Titus. And when you asked me why, I made the NK argument you made. I would fully expect for you to ask me well, Titus actively attacked Ircher the entire time. Doesn’t that give you pause? Wouldn’t that contradict what you’re saying is the main reason to suspect someone to be Scum? That’s more where I’m coming from. Not being consistent with your thought process isn’t Scum indicative actually. At least I don’t think so.

[Andresvmb]

You’re using the NK to justify your vote, which is always suspect (it’s like you haven’t even considered that Scum make kills to confuse / frame the Town). But the single most important way you’re pointing to for identifying Scum in the game from day play conflicts directly with that vote. The fact that you’re not even acknowledging that is bizarre.

I'm voting Titus because it's a read on how she plays the game as scum. She kills threats and stays low key. I can scum read her independently of how I think the scum team played around Ircher's slip. If you think that's a scummy thought process then you're gonna have to explain why because I don't get it.

I didn’t call it Scummy I called it odd.

Imagine I said that I think Scum went out of their way to defend Ircher. And then I voted Titus. And when you asked me why, I made the NK argument you made. I would fully expect for you to ask me well, Titus actively attacked Ircher the entire time. Doesn’t that give you pause? Wouldn’t that contradict what you’re saying is the main reason to suspect someone to be Scum? That’s more where I’m coming from. Not being consistent with your thought process isn’t Scum indicative actually. At least I don’t think so.

The thing is that I wouldn't question you on that. I don't think it's odd to have conflicting scum reads, or have a specific scum read as an exception to how one thinks scum would play.

And I figured you saw the thought process as scummy because you were voting me. I don't think you voted me just because you think I'm odd.

I was trying to put a vote down based on what someone who seems to have a better grasp on the game is voting (I think mastina is Town?). I haven’t actually myself figured out who I think is most likely to be Scum.

I haven’t been historically able to read Titus properly. I think your points aren’t totally silly. I think if the Scum had two shots, shooting petapan who seemed to have a magnifying glass aimed at Titus makes a lot of sense.

Also, what do you make of 468 through 470 from Uncrowned? This is why I think it’s possible they’re Scum (if I had to summarize it).

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I am back tonight.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

Luke, mastina, (???)

I don‘t know, maybe Ydrasse for third
But I‘m never limming Roden today I think after re-ISOing.
This extremely obstinate defense almost always comes from town in my experience. Especially when it‘s so genuinely egocentrist at times (not negatively connotated as it‘s a townie process)

I have been thinking about this, and I think it’s silly to doubt mastina as Town at this point.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

[Andresvmb]

^@Vivax.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not actually doing the math and it’s all speculation, but one player using up say 100%, the rest of the PRs running at say 30%, and the ratio of VTs to PRs at something like 2:1 (so ~6 PRs), you get an average productivity of what, ~85%? Or so? You almost need usage of 100% from someone else to get below 75% on average. If you assume the game is even heavier on PRs, say 8, you still don’t get below 80% unless someone else used up a lot of productivity. No? I don’t have enough information, but intuitively you need something like 2 or more players to have used up significant productivity points to make it work. I think.

[Andresvmb]

Given the mechanic, I don’t think it makes sense to think in terms of the “average usage per Town player”. VTs aren’t using any. Let’s get real. So it’s an estimate based on how many PRs there are in the game. Traffic Analyst is a strong role, and it cost 70%. Jailkeeper and Doctor were 30%. And we know there’s a Vig most likely, at what I would agree requires significant productivity usage. Do you think we are going to get a lot more PRs that require heavy usage? I think that’s the question. But I think the mechanic hints at mastina being a bad execution.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

Why does the productivity anyone claims to use matter at all for the process of forming a read? We are in 50-75% scenario based on 1 extra kill. There is no apparent reason for you to take at face value the prod. mastina claimed to have set.

But you can take at face value that the reason to vote Ircher was the wrong one, and that scum would be the first to notice the mistake.

You’re tunneled so you’re not thinking. I’m not taking what they said entirely at face value. But we did have an extra Scum NK at least, which means the Town used up a lot of productivity points. You have better information than me - how many points do you need to see used before the Scum get an additional kill? Okay, given what is publicly available, what do you think happened? It’s possible some of the flipped players used more than what it would have cost them to use their ability once, but I would argue that’s a bad assumption (and if they did, I would actually think it ridiculous). So, you should intuitively know that someone else probably used up a lot of points. I think it’s a decently good guess that the player that openly said they would use a lot of productivity points actually did so.

[Andresvmb]

And since the mechanic is only influenced by the choices made by the Town, I have to think mastina influenced the score. I would be more skeptical of mastina if the Scum had only had one kill, and you were here claiming a Vig shot. Then, they probably lied about their use of productivity points.

[Andresvmb]

Ok so you think that entering the game announcing 0% productivity means mastina gets a town pass. That‘s still dodging the issue that Roden is pooping green balls of townieness while getting pushed. And mastina is behind that push, who casually acknowledged that Luke is also scum when I was in crusade mode but somehow less relevant than Roden who seems like some closet skeleton everyone wants to get rid of asap. Fk that

Sigh. No. You’re not reading what I’m writing so you do you and keep pushing nonsense.

Since when does every Town player get every push right? You are strongly disagreeing with mastina’s perspective which is totally fine, but that certainly doesn’t make them Scum. And the mechanic actually reduces the odds that mastina is Scum. You can hate that as much as you want, but I think it’s an important consideration.

[Andresvmb]

No it was to you Luke and to Vivax at the same time. I criticized the calculation of the average use per player because it makes it seem less difficult for the average to be <75% if Vivax used 100%. That’s more why. But I don’t think we disagree.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also getting somewhat aggravated about the constant discredit of who saw what and why. I do not disagree that if I’m Scum, I am more likely to quickly realize that Ircher slipped there. No disagreement from me there. But that is NOT the same as actually pointing it out and being consistent about the meaning of it. As a Partner, your first instinct is not to bury your Partner immediately upon them making a slip that they can, with proper maneuvering, get out of. It’s not like we’re talking about a mechanical claim that is verifiably false. It was an embedded assumption that you will have noticed people genuinely disagreed about at the beginning of the game. So just saying oh they’re Scum because they noticed the slip really doesn’t make sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

Like fine I really don’t know if Lukewarm is experienced Scum who would have positioned around their Partner upon them slipping by pointing it out and burying them for it. I haven’t played with them enough. But on average, I don’t think so, and I’m skeptical that this is the easiest explanation. Someone with an eye for math would have surely gotten interested in the numbers Ircher was putting out, and very quickly realized that they had to be assuming we’re in a 17:4 game - which is not immediately obvious. This gets at what people look for or what they’re interested in, in part. So yeah no I don’t buy it that Lukewarm is Scum because they pointed out the assumption first. I would have panicked there and truly ignored it unless they couldn’t get out from under it.

[Andresvmb]

No it was to you Luke and to Vivax at the same time. I criticized the calculation of the average use per player because it makes it seem less difficult for the average to be <75% if Vivax used 100%. That’s more why. But I don’t think we disagree.

I don‘t know why this is relevant in Roden‘s regard, or why it‘s less difficult to be less when I use more as it‘s the opposite. You wouldn‘t happen to have not understood that it‘s the productivity we don‘t use that fuels the power roles?

The more role usage, the more kills scum gets, simply put.

And I don‘t know how Luke cooks posts so quickly but it‘s sort of scary and feels very reactive.

And since the mechanic is only influenced by the choices made by the Town, I have to think mastina influenced the score. I would be more skeptical of mastina if the Scum had only had one kill, and you were here claiming a Vig shot. Then, they probably lied about their use of productivity points.

I agree with you that Vivax + Peta (+1) likely needed to be pretty low to get us to the bonus kill, based on the numbers.

So, from that it does feel safe to conclude that there is at least 1 more strong town PR out there after Vivax and Peta.

If Mastina is town, then that is her.

But if she is scum, that just means that there is a strong PR out there who has not claimed that they are a strong PR.

I don't agree that that means town bin mastina. But I have also resigned to the fact that she gets to day 4 before she is sorted, so maybe we will see such a flip or have such a claim happen by then, and we can pick it up from there I think.

Okay but I didn’t say town bin mastina forever. Until you see someone else claim a strong PR and high productivity usage, I think it makes sense to assume mastina is Town. I just wanted to put that out there, because it seems to me that Vivax is focused on the wrong players. I need to read how Roden has gone about defending themselves and see whether I think it’s Towny (I haven’t read it), but I absolutely wanted to put that thought out there. That’s all.

[Andresvmb]

Oh good to know a Roden voter didn‘t even read them, Andres.
That surely warrants you acting like some sort of Luke extra head here

I haven’t read the last 8 pages or so. What’s your problem? You have a view, and since you’re not getting your way, you’re pouting. And what have I said that is a rehash of what Luke has said? Please, enlighten me.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not a bad mechanical argument. You’re just tunneled. You saying it’s bad doesn’t make it bad.

[Andresvmb]

All I did was explain that mechanics point to there most likely being another strong PR, or another Town player that used up a significant amount of productivity points. Until you see someone claim it, it’s seems a decent assumption to make that it was mastina. If mastina is trying to sus out a strong PR, that would be a bad trade (1 Scum for 1 PR), and so I’m discounting it. Hence, my conclusion. I don’t even think the logic is that complicated.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not a bad mechanical argument. You’re just tunneled. You saying it’s bad doesn’t make it bad.

What do you mean I‘m tunneled? I’m not defending mastina while having my vote on a player I claim to not have read, broseph

I’m done talking to you - you’re acting a fool.

I don’t care to defend anyone. It’s about getting the right answer. And you’re acting like I haven’t read any of the game. So go away with that.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not a bad mechanical argument. You’re just tunneled. You saying it’s bad doesn’t make it bad.

What do you mean I‘m tunneled? I’m not defending mastina while having my vote on a player I claim to not have read, broseph

I’m done talking to you - you’re acting a fool.

I don’t care to defend anyone. It’s about getting the right answer. And you’re acting like I haven’t read any of the game. So go away with that.

Go away with what? Scumreading mastina that you‘ve been trying to dissuade me from?
I‘m sure that she could make that argument just as well if not better, if you weren‘t going into hyperdrive to do just that for her.

Sure buddy.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not feeling any urgency to move my vote away from Roden at the moment.

[Andresvmb]

@Dannflor I think you are mistaken in how you’re remembering my play around Ircher but otherwise I think you’re Town. You’re saying I was bussing Ircher basically but I never voted the slot and if anything I wrote a post discrediting then slip. I admitted to being wrong about all that at the beginning of today. I get that it’s difficult to read a game that’s long in one day and remember everything accurately, so just wanted to clarify that.

I’m having a hard time voting Titus only because we have strongly clashed in the past and I have been convinced they’re Scum when they’re not (in a situation when our worldviews disagreed wildly). I may not have responded to one of their questions about why mastina still being alive is a bad sign - I think it’s because two important considerations for Scum where present that should have merited an NK. I don’t want to get too much into it but mastina’s early vote for flipped Scum + obvious hinting of PR should have merited a shot. Like petapan’s reputation and Nero Cain’s obvious Towniness I’m not sure made them better targets in my head. So I was trying to get to mastina’s alignment in part by sheeping them. I’m not sure that’s going to work anymore and I’m going to have to make a choice. For what it’s worth, I didn’t see Roden’s defensiveness as Towny in the same way as Vivax, so I wasn’t really giving Roden much benefit of the doubt then.

[Andresvmb]

I rescind my vig claim

Wait, are you for real?

[Andresvmb]

@Dannflor I think you are mistaken in how you’re remembering my play around Ircher but otherwise I think you’re Town. You’re saying I was bussing Ircher basically but I never voted the slot and if anything I wrote a post discrediting then slip. I admitted to being wrong about all that at the beginning of today. I get that it’s difficult to read a game that’s long in one day and remember everything accurately, so just wanted to clarify that.

I’m having a hard time voting Titus only because we have strongly clashed in the past and I have been convinced they’re Scum when they’re not (in a situation when our worldviews disagreed wildly). I may not have responded to one of their questions about why mastina still being alive is a bad sign - I think it’s because two important considerations for Scum where present that should have merited an NK. I don’t want to get too much into it but mastina’s early vote for flipped Scum + obvious hinting of PR should have merited a shot. Like petapan’s reputation and Nero Cain’s obvious Towniness I’m not sure made them better targets in my head. So I was trying to get to mastina’s alignment in part by sheeping them. I’m not sure that’s going to work anymore and I’m going to have to make a choice. For what it’s worth, I didn’t see Roden’s defensiveness as Towny in the same way as Vivax, so I wasn’t really giving Roden much benefit of the doubt then.

I should clarify - I’m responding with what I was thinking at the beginning of the day for mastina. My mechanical analysis still stands, so I’m not going to all of a sudden vote mastina here. But I don’t think just sheeping mastina is enough to get Roden executed. Instead, I’m going to have to make a deep dive and actually decide for myself whether the vote makes sense. And if it does, I won’t move.

[Andresvmb]

Instead, I’m going to have to make a deep dive and actually decide for myself whether the vote makes sense. And if it does, I won’t move

This feels like you are saying that you currently have not done this, and don't know if you want the roden elim.

Yet your vote is on him while he is at E-1.

Seems like you're running short on time to make that evaluation

I’ve tried to read every single post this game so I have a decent sense for how I see the game. It’s just that deep dives take a lot out of me and at the beginning, you still feel like you’re looking for a needle in a haystack. So I prefer to wait until the player list has dwindled down a bit before having to do this.

[Andresvmb]

I rescind my vig claim

Wait, are you for real?

Good question.
I'm a neurobiological correlate of a parallel dimension of sensations and experiences, you?

(But really, scum knows it's nonsense and I am vig, I only give the cred to Ausuka though, so this looks like you're trying to replicate it lol)

You think that as Scum I would try and replicate someone else’s reaction for Town cred? No, I was actually furious for a short 5 seconds until I realized you’re probably just lying. I also don’t think there’s enough power at the beginning of the game if everyone used it to the max to lower the average sufficiently to allow for 3 NKs. I think it’s a rather clever way of ensuring the Scum don’t ever find themselves in a situation where they’re faced with a lot of Town power and cannot escape their fate so to speak further down to line.

[Andresvmb]

Also, just from a game state perspective, the reason I haven’t been all that keen of moving away from Roden, is that I would naturally expect there to be a lot of resistance to the execution of a player if the Town were roughly moving in the right direction. And you can’t tell me that more than a few alternatives have not been offered to stop Roden from getting executed (Titus, Something_Smart, mastina, to name a few). This is purely circumstantial obviously, and it can be interpreted various different ways (a lot of Scum together pushing the wagon of a Town player stubbornly wouldn’t look that much different to this, except I don’t SR Klick, I think Ydrasse is Town, and I doubt Malakittens is insisting on me being Town just to pocket me).

[Andresvmb]

Also, just from a game state perspective, the reason I haven’t been all that keen of moving away from Roden, is that I would naturally expect there to be a lot of resistance to the execution of a player if the Town were roughly moving in the right direction. And you can’t tell me that more than a few alternatives have not been offered to stop Roden from getting executed (Titus, Something_Smart, mastina, to name a few). This is purely circumstantial obviously, and it can be interpreted various different ways (a lot of Scum together pushing the wagon of a Town player stubbornly wouldn’t look that much different to this, except I don’t SR Klick, I think Ydrasse is Town, and I doubt Malakittens is insisting on me being Town just to pocket me).

What you're describing is a pretty normal gamestate for 17 players each with their own thoughts, I don't think that several people being pushed means that the largest wagon is scum. I think the D1 wagon being so unanimous (eventually) also shows that sometimes mafia is quite easily voted out

I didn’t say what you actually reacted to, so not sure what you’re talking about. The Roden wagon has been very sticky, and multiple other wagons have been constantly suggested, at times, with the specific intention of saving Roden. It’s not just that there’s a lot of wagons and people have been moving freely and whatnot, which sure that would be “normal” but that’s not what’s happened or what I feel has happened. The stickiness of the Roden wagon + the insistence by a loud minority to divert away

could be

a sign that the Town are right and the Scum are fighting to save their Partner. I just wanted to see how people are perceiving the game state.

[Andresvmb]

vote count 2.02

with 17 votes in play, it takes 9 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-10-04 01:00:00).

firing

Roden [5]:

mastina, Andresvmb, Klick, Ausuka, Uncrowned

Titus [3]:

Roden, fireisredsir, Lukewarm

Vivax [2]:

Ydrasse, furtiveglance

Lukewarm [1]:

Vivax

furtiveglance [1]:

Malakittens

not voting [5]:

PenguinPower, Titus, jjh927, RCEnigma, Something_Smart

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

flavour

flavour

now playing...
♫

Bijelo Dugme - Ne spavaj mala moja muzika dok svira

♫
▶ ❚❚ ─────────────────●─────────────  1:21 / 2:30

Roden has been the top wagon since like here and probably a bit before. That’s more the point.

[Andresvmb]

I rescind my vig claim

Wait, are you for real?

Good question.
I'm a neurobiological correlate of a parallel dimension of sensations and experiences, you?

(But really, scum knows it's nonsense and I am vig, I only give the cred to Ausuka though, so this looks like you're trying to replicate it lol)

You think that as Scum I would try and replicate someone else’s reaction for Town cred? No, I was actually furious for a short 5 seconds until I realized you’re probably just lying. I also don’t think there’s enough power at the beginning of the game if everyone used it to the max to lower the average sufficiently to allow for 3 NKs. I think it’s a rather clever way of ensuring the Scum don’t ever find themselves in a situation where they’re faced with a lot of Town power and cannot escape their fate so to speak further down to line.

Lying on a game of forum mafia. Who would ever do that?
Wait...How does anyone get into politics..Hmm. Oh yeah. News is what someone doesn't want you to see, everything else is advertising.
Names and symbols all over the place matter, and wealth makes the rules.

On a more serious note, Dannflor is a beacon of rationality here. I sort of believe your reaction.

Uncrowned is more of a null for me at the moment, but I agree that Roden would be informative. And we got some nice wagons to analyze afterwards.
Mala is mia, hope she's recovering

I’ll just explain what I meant because you’re being condescending for literally no reason. Sure people lie in a game of mafia I mean if you want an award for stating the most obvious things you are way ahead of everyone else. No, I meant, in the context of what was being discussed and what you said, assume I am Scum, I don’t bother trying to imitate someone else’s reaction because what’s the point? What do I get? Instead, I either push you there thinking you rescinding your claim opens an avenue of attack. Or I defend you because I think that’ll make me look better. I just felt like smashing you over the head instead. And then I realized it wasn’t worth the effort.

[Andresvmb]

I read Roden’s ISO - I had forgotten just how horrific their D1 was. Also, their posting is too focused on self-preservation over trying to solve the game. Yeah they had some comments as prompted by me about Uncrowned, but outside of pushing what, mastina, is there a coherent push in there? I don’t remember one. Like they get upset at Ausuka for voting them and not really speaking about them before, and they make a point of saying that Vivax v. Lukewarm is TvT in 1228, but they really seem for the most part to be fighting the reasons people are expressing for SR’ing them or getting upset about questions about their role. I just don’t see a whole lot of actual curiosity about other people’s alignments. It could just be that they’re demoralized, but it’s been a very consistent apathy.

[Andresvmb]

At this point, I don’t think I’m moving elsewhere and it’ll be difficult to relook at the game until we know if we’re going in the right direction or not.

[Andresvmb]

^take a fresh look at the game*

My English is bad.

[Andresvmb]

Final reads are (Uncrowned/Titus/Mastina/Ausuka) contains at least two scum.

Mastina knows my meta and should know I'm town here, this isn't BoP either because she understands my mind set and knows how to emotionally set me off and can inform the rest of her scum team how to do so.

Titus has done literally nothing and it's in her scum meta to try to get town read through AtE (the drunk posting).

Ausuka is still scummy from before for retroactively scum reading me when I pointed out the contradiction in her vote.

You know, outside of mastina (which if you flip Town, I’ll reconsider strongly), we really don’t disagree as much on our groupings. Mine is mostly contingent on your flip to be fair, but if you flip Town, I agree I wouldn’t vote for Lukewarm and try and get Titus executed, and I certainly would take a hard look at Ausuka. I already think Uncrowned is somewhat suspicious, but that read has faded into the back of my mind.

[Andresvmb]

But I can’t push Titus in good faith on the day after they helped drive Scum into the ground, despite the fact that they’ve thrown shade in ways I didn’t find intuitive (the criticism they got about their statement that S_S / Ircher were Scum definitely resonated with me).

[Andresvmb]

I have been staring at this too long, and my brain has turned to mush.

I am struggling to find The Thing that scum have been doing wrt to these wagons, but the "But so many counter wagons" argument feels like a bad argument.

When I just look at the movement of votes, I almost get a feeling that both wagons are town and scum just don't care.

I just don't see the movement to save Roden (very little effort to consolidate onto which ever of Titus/SS wagon had the most townies planted on them. All SS voters moved to Roden. If you take out Roden himself (who is scum in this hypothetical), that makes like 2/3 Townies on Titus for most of the day, and therefore not as good a choice over SS)

But I also don't see the the movement to save Titus, because basically all the people on Roden were there before the Titus wagon actually got above 3 simultaneous votes.

It does not match my read on Titus, but when I look at it that is what it feels like. -- Unless maybe both scum partners were already on Roden from early in the day / when he was being obstinate / revealed that he lied about part of his role, so were unable to move when Titus started getting pressure?

Mass vote moving pattern recognition is not really my strong suit, but once I got started I kinda got stuck here for too long. idk

There’s no world where Titus and Roden are both Scum right? Like I don’t think so, but it’s not a real thought anyone has had thus far right? What you’re highlighting as to the vote movement I don’t find silly in the least actually. I took the overall feel of the game state as indicating that maybe Scum are trying to move away from Roden, but if the voters that tried something else all moved back to Roden, it could be that the Scum Team feels like mastina’s push is so loud, they have no choice but to be on it, OR both Roden and Titus are Town and this is going down the tube.

[Andresvmb]

I will be insufferable until we kill Titus

VOTE: titus

If you’re right, why are you still alive, and Ausuka dead? Just curious what your thoughts are on that.

[Andresvmb]

I almost want to vote Titus just to do what several dead Town players have been pushing for now, so I’m not against it, but I’m curious as to what people think is going on.

I’m also actually annoyed Ausuka is dead because I was actually able to clear them based off of 712, and now almost every player I’ve felt really good about has been NK’ed (except for Ydrasse).

[Andresvmb]

I almost want to vote Titus just to do what several dead Town players have been pushing for now, so I’m not against it, but I’m curious as to what people think is going on.

I’m also actually annoyed Ausuka is dead because I was actually able to clear them based off of 712, and now almost every player I’ve felt really good about has been NK’ed (except for Ydrasse).

This isn't as relevant as other things right now, but why did you townread 712? I thought it was one of Ausuka's more sus posts.

I wrote in my notes that I didn’t think Ausuka was operating with TMI, and that that post in particular was quite good.

[Andresvmb]

Klick is such a bad push I don’t trust Dannflor very much right now. Their vote D1 in 269 is being forgotten all of a sudden, just as momentum was turning against Vivax?

[Andresvmb]

Klick is such a bad push I don’t trust Dannflor very much right now. Their vote D1 in 269 is being forgotten all of a sudden, just as momentum was turning against Vivax?

Vivax had like 2 votes on them vs Ircher's like 7

I think it's perfectly sensible as a bus vote

I don't real as strong about this as say Titus and I'm willing to hear that I may be wrong

do you have other reasons for town reading them so strongly?

I don’t TR Klick “so strongly”, but a balanced accounting of Klick’s play D1 would have surely incorporated that vote. Instead, you’re focused on how performative the explanation for their reads was D1, and nothing else, which seems one-sided to me. And honestly, I intend to spend most of my time trying to figure out whether Titus makes sense as an execution here, because odds are that they’ll face immense pressure (way too many votes have piled on there both yesterday and today, and there’s been a lot of discussion about the slot). Klick just… isn’t going to get executed over several other suspicious slots today. So your push seems way out of place to me.

[Andresvmb]

And honestly, I intend to spend most of my time trying to figure out whether Titus makes sense as an execution here, because odds are that they’ll face immense pressure (way too many votes have piled on there both yesterday and today, and there’s been a lot of discussion about the slot). Klick just… isn’t going to get executed over several other suspicious slots today. So your push seems way out of place to me.

do you think it's a bad idea to look in multiple places? i don't get this

No I don’t think it’s generally a bad idea. But I do think the view Dannflor is expressing is not balanced, which hints at an agenda to me.

[Andresvmb]

I intend to spend most of my time trying to figure out whether Titus makes sense as an execution here, because odds are that they’ll face immense pressure (way too many votes have piled on there both yesterday and today, and there’s been a lot of discussion about the slot).

Is "way too many votes have piled there yesterday" really a concern you have?

Out of 17 living players, 6 players voted there at any point yesterday

Half of those have flipped town

Players who voted for Titus:
Fireisredsir
Lukewarm

Ausuka

Dannflor

Roden

Player who voted for Both:

Vivax

You’re misreading my post but whatever.

[Andresvmb]

Now, Dannflor, do you want to talk about Klick

Anyway

I lean scum here. I find the way they developed reads throughout D1 to be a little performative? I suppose I should have done by homework to see whether Klick always does the giant list which they gradually strike out - but experiencing it for the first time I got the impression that Klick was "doing things just to do them"

I feel like there's a lot of posts that reinforce that to me too

Like 792 or 545 that are just observations? I think scum that goes unnoticed under the radar a lot are scum that are skilled at making observations without a lot of hard stances and reading through Klick's ISO I get the impression that they are doing stuff but not what they are doing? And the frankly the scum team of Dannflor/Roden/not-too-deep-deep-wolf feels... not very high-level for the amount of sorting Klick seems to want to appear to be doing?

I also find their Ircher vote, stating that they don't really have an opinion on the scum slip one way or another, a probable bus vote, but I realize I may be entering conf-bias territory with this point

What is your take on Klick?

Actually I didn’t read this post carefully enough. I don’t agree, but you did acknowledge the vote on Ircher. Now that I have read this again, I just feel you dismissed the vote too casually versus the way they express their reads. And I don’t find the lists to be problematic in the same way. It’s actually a decent way to see how Klick’s views are evolving without endlessly long posts, which would also open them up to questions.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I think I’ll just read Titus’ posts and tell you all what I feel. I think that’s issue number 1 right now.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

[Andresvmb]

i can join if it’s made same night

And you’re not in it now correct? With mastina and Titus? Since mastina is alive, it’s a lie.

[Andresvmb]

@titus

How much are you claiming your ability cost?

150% then 350.

I always register as having a PT.

This passed the gotcha part of my question. Carry on

You were going to ask who they targeted N1 right? I thought of the same thing. But then Titus should have questioned my logic around why mastina was Town to me (since they used up a lot of productivity points allegedly both nights), but they didn’t as far as I can remember (but maybe I missed it), which would be suspicious in and of itself.

[Andresvmb]

why in the world would you be allowed to use a mason ability only if someone wasn’t visited

Because it’s a lie. Titus dies today 100% of the time.

I want to see what happens with the 1v1 with fireisredsir and mastina though.

[Andresvmb]

Titus is trolling - that’s an obvious lie. Night actions that resolved during the day wouldn’t resolve at a random moment in time during the next day. Point to me one time you’ve ever seen that. It’s so obviously false it’s painful.

[Andresvmb]

if titus had a pt i would be aware of it and be able to join it

I think Titus’ claim is completely bogus, and they should die. They’re contradicting themselves in an effort to survive. Like it’s so obvious.

[Andresvmb]

Btw just so we’re clear - Titus always dies today. It’s fine if we all want to express a view on mastina and fireisredsir, but we’re not executing between them first. That would be ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

I think in the general context of today, I would execute mastina before I voted for fireisredsir, though I don’t understand why Scum would try and do a 1v1 trade in the way that mastina has here. Just something doesn’t add up.

[Andresvmb]

Last scum is Andres or PP based off VCA

Klick Luke andres/PP

That's my final answer

Can you have your teammates not shoot me please? I’m actually having fun now.

[Andresvmb]

@fireisredsir I presume you have already done this or perhaps it’s obvious, but can you confirm with the Mod that if you acted on someone that was RB’ed, that you would get a result of No Action that night? I just want to make sure I understand this 1v1 with no ambiguity.

[Andresvmb]

WAIT

[Andresvmb]

I want an answer to my question.

[Andresvmb]

Just for the record btw, mastina just seems wrong to me. They’re either Town that’s off, or Scum. And I really wouldn’t execute fireisredsir here.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Titus is going to self-hammer - I just want a quick response.

[Andresvmb]

Also Ydrasse - it was nice playing with you. I suspect you won’t be around much longer.

[Andresvmb]

Like mastina drove the Roden wagon from the very start and they were wrong. And it’s fine if they had expressed some doubts because then I could see that one push or the other push was more or less serious so I could rely on the strength of the player. But the large number of assumptions in their push of fireisredsir [no interference on their action, protection sitting on fireisredsir (or Ascetic), and the thoughts on balance] should have produced a nuance approach to the result and explanation. Instead we get someone who is screaming bloody murder. It doesn’t add up, and I wouldn’t rely on it for anything.

[Andresvmb]

^nuanced approach*

[Andresvmb]

Like if mastina had come out and asked fireisredsir to first confirm that their role doesn’t have any modifiers that would permanently interfere with actions on them, and they had said something like yes I can confirm I’m not [Miller / Ascetic], and then mastina had pushed and said well in that case either the Scum interfered with my action, were sitting on you with a Rolestopper, or you’re lying because… then I would be more inclined to believe it.

[Andresvmb]

But this over the top declaration that they have an investigative result that confirms that fireisredsir is Scum, to then produce a “No Result” outcome, just screams “gotcha” to me. And it also seems tailored somewhat to counter fireisredsir’s complete claim that they sat on mastina two nights in a row and didn’t see them act. Now, I know mastina would indeed have gotten a “No Result” PM if fireisredsir had been rolestopped, but do we know if fireisredsir would have seen them no act? I just want to see if we can rule out that form of interference (and reduce this to a Roleblocker). I haven’t looked it up, but wouldn’t fireisredsir have seen them act N2 (they technically did investigate a slot that was rolestopped, resulting in the No Result)?

[Andresvmb]

Like in the wiki for a Tracker (closest to what we have here I presume), fireisredsir should have seen mastina act if the target (fireisredsir themselves) was theoretically rolestopped. That’s my take. So that should rule it out. So we’re left with either one of them is lying, or mastina was RB’ed. I don’t have a decent sense for balance, to be honest, and this game already seems way too heavy on PRs for any sort of straightforward analysis, but I’m almost leaning towards mastina just being untruthful. One-Shot Cop is such a classic Scum claim too that it just bugs me.

[Andresvmb]

Like, from your POV right now, is Fire a mafia ascetic tracker? You're making multiple leaps of logic at the same time and I don't think you can feasibly jump that far

That or a mafia tracker with a separate scum rolestopper.

Like I think this almost for sure is wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Like how does mastina conclude that the Scum don’t have strong Roles in one breath, but then claims that the Scum have a Rolestopper + Tracker that were both specifically aimed at deceiving mastina when we’re in a game with multiple PRs and a lot of uncertainty around who is doing what to who? It’s such a low probability scenario that the Scum planned to trick mastina by correctly guessing who they were going to investigate in the Team that I’m just baffled. Not only would they have had to plant the Tracker on mastina every Night, but also ensure that they correctly guess (1/3) who in the Team was going to get investigated by mastina, and use their Rolestopper on that player.

[Andresvmb]

Like no fucking way. It screams bullshit to me.

[Andresvmb]

Perhaps mastina was RB’ed. Rolestopper requires fireisredsir just straight up lying to if a Scum flips Rolestopper, flip fireisredsir. But the way the conclusion was pushed out just screams nonsense to me and I don’t trust it one bit.

[Andresvmb]

^so if*

[Andresvmb]

I think almost by default PenguinPower is Town here btw. But I don’t have any detailed views of that slot.

[Andresvmb]

{Lukewarm, Malakittens} always Town here.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I figured I would get those thoughts out before the end of today. I suppose we’ve sorted that out mechanically somewhat. I’ll put my vote back.

VOTE: Titus.

[Andresvmb]

Hmm.

I was starting from the question of why she would ever claim mastina, saw she didnt at first, then went to "who was she planning to claim?"

But I guess another reasonable answer is that she intended to never say anyone.

So much wasted work x.x

If you read the post from Titus where they claim they’re a Masonizer, they also state that they don’t intend to reveal their Partner before saying that maybe you could figure it out through their posts. That post, together with all of the twists and turns of the claim after, just confirms they’re Scum to me, but yes also obliterates any notion that they were planning on revealing their target.

[Andresvmb]

Just to play devils advocate (because I personally believe that mastina was roleblocked even if fire is scum) all it takes for mastina's thing to be true is:

Fire is ascetic.
and
Scum tracked mastina to fire OR scum just trusted that mastina failed the moment she said she had a result on fire

When you cut out 95% of the words mastina used to world build around it, I don't think it is a completely wild world to believe in

It also follows through from her previously stated belief day 2 that scum would never have a roleblocker in this game, therefore her failing = ascetic.

Yes but in this world, you have to conclude fireisredsir is Scum. Always. And by play, I’m not convinced that’s the case. If Fire is ascetic, they’re lying about their Role and Scum. If Scum tracked mastina to fire, fire is lying about the result of their action and Scum. Either way, your assumption is that they’re Scum regardless of what mastina did, and you need to back that up some other way without relying on mechanics.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t understand the NK would be my first reaction to that Night. Lukewarm was obvious Town of course which is what the Scum seem to be hunting, which is odd with just how confirmed Ydrasse is. Like, Ydrasse is guaranteed Town never to be flipped. Unless the Team is suicidal, they’re not going to have a Partner sunk by a different Partner for the Town credibility unless Ydrasse really feels like they can go to the end after that no questions asked.

However, that does tell me that the Scum are not that afraid of PRs to some extent. I need to go back and check what Ydrasse’s PR claim was, but the only reason I would expect the Scum not to really care about Ydrasse still being in the game, is because they have a Roleblocker. Now that’s a bit of a leap, but I’m just surprised by that. They must be afraid of the amount of time and effort Lukewarm was putting into the game (and look, Lukewarm’s analysis around the voting for Roden tells me that they were onto something there, so I respect it).

[Andresvmb]

Alternatively, they’re executing VTs so that they can have the average be lower than 75% and get an additional NK. Actually, that’s probably why.

[Andresvmb]

@Ydrasse, yeah I mean you can’t get a guilty, but you could get some information that might clear someone. Did you end up acting last Night?

[Andresvmb]

Alternatively, they’re executing VTs so that they can have the average be lower than 75% and get an additional NK. Actually, that’s probably why.

how would they know Lukewarm was a VT

Probably an educated guess?

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi, back tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I have been a bit overwhelmed at work. So apologies for that.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Uncrowned

[Andresvmb]

I don’t trust mastina to direct the game to the right place, and I think this is the better slot to start with if we’re going to go through the POE.

[Andresvmb]

@Ydrasse come vote this. Like I re-read the posts you quoted and they’ve been in my POE for a bit so I want to see if I’m off.

[Andresvmb]

@mastina I want to believe in your push for furtiveglance but I don’t. Like I’m not feeling it. I think Uncrowned’s posts are far more damming (particularly how they were grouping players based on Roden’s flip), and I would bet they’re trying to lay low not to attract too much attention in the hopes that Town implodes. I don’t think we should let them skate here.

[Andresvmb]

and like i kinda feel uncrowned doesn’t care at all about what’s happening today or really yesterday either

you are correct!

i'm just observing for now. i have reasons.

I’m very curious as to what reasons you could possibly have for basically saying that you don’t care to actually make an argument against someone in the hopes they’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

so now he's too obvious to be scum but still worth putting up for hammer? or is he not anymore? this feels off

Btw, up to here, Uncrowned had voted Ircher alright, but they’re arguing for the vote to move

away

from Ircher, saying it “felt off” once Ircher was put at L-1 by Vivax. In terms of focus, outside of fire and Ydrasse, all of the shade they’ve cast up to then had been on flipped Town {Vivax, Lukewarm, Ausuka}. But not a whole lot of focus on the person they’re actually voting. I would also note they tried to place Titus towards their top of the pyramid early.

[Andresvmb]

i mean just the idea that it was being brought up strategically to take pressure off a buddy, i really don't buy that being a thing someone (even titus) actually thinks about. stuff like that almost always gets found organically.

ok, this makes more sense. though I guess the question becomes how do you determine what is and isn't organic

I feel like this might be a good thing to take note of though and return to once some flips have happened

And this is soft defending Titus.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Roden

time to play the game my friend

And then they find a reason to jump off once Nero starts saying that Ircher might be a mis-execution.

[Andresvmb]

it kinda seems like her thoughts are surface level intended to sound reasonable tho? like she hasn't said anything super out there it's just that they don't feel like they quite click into a consistent mindset, like luke was saying

it's like you see opportunities to make comments but then not provided much follow up? like the titus vote in general doesn't feel super convincing

also, couldn't we apply this same logic to you? what makes your two slots different? up until your vote on her, you had very little to say about her so what changed? from what i'm aware of, her main string of posting had already occurred before your vote on me, and you didn't have a lot to say then

And here Uncrowned is just attacking fire for placing the magnifying glass on Titus?

Like, just purely from their play D1, Uncrowned should be permanently in the POE.

[Andresvmb]

Titus is town here and I have very little doubt about it

Also - haha this is terrible looking back.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you so

desperate

to discredit someone you think will flip scum and has no sway or power in the game?

Like you just get town spewed if I flip red, right?

notice as well the complete disregard for not only calling out the fabricated E-1 thing, but everything i said as well about out interaction prior, instead opting to just... do whatever this is.

this is scum basically giving up and throwing shit on the wall hoping something sticks. if you really cared about the interaction like you pretended to, this would not be your approach.

desperation would be the word, yes.

We really should just kill this slot. Like now.

[Andresvmb]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

I don’t agree. As you can clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher / subsequent flip, the Scum came to the quick conclusion that being

on

Ircher was the better place to be than off. I’m not suggesting all of the Scum bussed Ircher (though it’s certainly possible), but I do feel like voting there was the right strategic push. I might have thrown some passing shade at Ircher, but I never voted there, and I questioned the slip. How does that set me up for success exactly, as Scum? Like I said, I don’t know if all the Scum ended up doing this, but to some extent, it wouldn’t surprise me. Ircher was under tremendous pressure from the slip and for the entire period of time they were away from the thread, so that was the right time to create distance from them not to be easily associated with them. I certainly don’t expect any of the Scum to have defended Ircher all that strongly.

Regarding Titus, I was clear from the start that I struggle reading the slot, and it’s also hard to argue a player is Scum when they voted and pushed for Scum to die. I expressed that they had had takes that didn’t seem like they would originally come from Town, but it is difficult I feel to argue with the ultimate result sometimes. But how have I positioned myself right? Most of the players I would typically work with to get a result (and I’ve played with Nero Cain, petapan, Lukewarm, Ausuka in the past, as well as Malakittens, Ydrasse, Something_Smart and maybe fire?) are mostly dead, and obviously mastina and Malakittens are defending me most loudly, and I’m openly disagreeing with mastina’s push, and I haven’t made any approach to work directly with Malakittens. How am I strengthening my position over time? The one player that is trusting me and I’m trusting them back a little bit is Ydrasse who I’m almost certain is Town, and for ~reasons~, I really doubt that perspective helps me long-term. So no, I don’t agree at all with that feeling you have. You’re not giving me any credit for my Nero or Lukewarm reads either but yeah whatever any decent Scum can put out some reads that make sense.

And I mean I don’t really feel like you’re reading me all that closely if you don’t think most of what I’m posting comes from Town. I’m not going to sit here and explain why my perspective is Town. It just is, and if you can’t see it, then that’s on you really. If you want to ask specific questions as to why I came to a particular conclusion, then I can expand upon specific questions but I’m not just going to defend my play against generalities because that’s impossible to do.

Why don’t I think I’ve played like Scum? Because I’ve kept up, read through the game a few times, tried making sense of what’s been going on, and I certainly was focused on getting Titus right yesterday for example which I really don’t have any incentive to do as Scum. I think the biggest differentiator between my Scum and Town game is that you can tell when I care and when I don’t as I make an argument or express a point of view, and I think that piece of my game is really difficult for me to fake. But that’s my take on my own game so take that as you will.

[Andresvmb]

@mastina I want to believe in your push for furtiveglance but I don’t. Like I’m not feeling it. I think Uncrowned’s posts are far more damming (particularly how they were grouping players based on Roden’s flip), and I would bet they’re trying to lay low not to attract too much attention in the hopes that Town implodes. I don’t think we should let them skate here.

I would bet you are wrong and that Uncrowned was just town with the same vibes as Ydrasse.

Seriously, without the knowledge that Ydrasse used her role to confscum Titus, look at Ydrasse's iso.
Look at Uncrowned's iso.

They are basically identical.

The difference is genuinely only that Ydrasse has since conftowned herself by having confscumed Titus. (Also, more players are familiar with Ydrasse and have played with her.) Genuinely, there were players on previous days who were saying what you are saying right now of Uncrowned, about Ydrasse; "Ydrasse is laying low to not attract too much attention" or something similar.

The proof that Uncrowned is town is that Ydrasse is town and Ydrasse was doing the very things Uncrowned did.

Uncrowned has a very good read progression on multiple players, one which demonstrates a lack of scum perspective.

I don’t think I’ve said that Uncrowned is just laying low. You can make that accusation of so many different players. The point I did make is that while voting for Ircher for the slip, they shaded basically every Town that’s flipped (and me for that matter), and put a lot of focus on getting Roden executed, even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time. That’s the important piece. And Ydrasse’s at the beginning was sufficiently Towny that I distinctly remember re-reading it and thinking to myself, nah I’m wrong I should re-evaluate. It’s really not comparable.

[Andresvmb]

so now he's too obvious to be scum but still worth putting up for hammer? or is he not anymore? this feels off

Btw, up to here, Uncrowned had voted Ircher alright, but they’re arguing for the vote to move

away

from Ircher, saying it “felt off” once Ircher was put at L-1 by Vivax. In terms of focus, outside of fire and Ydrasse, all of the shade they’ve cast up to then had been on flipped Town {Vivax, Lukewarm, Ausuka}. But not a whole lot of focus on the person they’re actually voting. I would also note they tried to place Titus towards their top of the pyramid early.

You know what those players all have in common?

They were nightkilled by the scum.

You know what scum players have a tendency to avoid doing?

They tend to avoid nightkilling the players that they, personally, are scumreading.
(Obviously, this isn't a guarantee, but is a

tendency

.)

That post is not something that is an unreasonable post for town to make and in fact looks antiscum. It's not really innately a town view so much as it is a view that scum are unlikely to have the nuance behind it which Uncrowned demonstrated--especially since Uncrowned's views demonstrate he's not the one making the scum nightkills here.

I don’t know if Uncrowned ever actually made a meaningful push against any of the players I highlighted. But you know who they consistently SR’ed that actually ended up being mis-executed (and was therefore, not NK’ed)? Roden. I don’t think you should ignore that or brush it off like you are here.

[Andresvmb]

i mean just the idea that it was being brought up strategically to take pressure off a buddy, i really don't buy that being a thing someone (even titus) actually thinks about. stuff like that almost always gets found organically.

ok, this makes more sense. though I guess the question becomes how do you determine what is and isn't organic
I feel like this might be a good thing to take note of though and return to once some flips have happened

And this is soft defending Titus.

I think you're reading it backwards; that ain't a soft defense. That's a soft Titus-could-be-scum take. It's explicitly acknowledging that peta might be onto something, something that extra flips would then help to evaluate the accuracy of.

VOTE: Roden
time to play the game my friend

And then they find a reason to jump off once Nero starts saying that Ircher might be a mis-execution.

That is a towntell, not a scumtell. Ircher was in antispew mode at that point. Uncrowned hopping

off

of Ircher does not further the scum wincon there.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher does nothing to prevent the Ircher wagon from going through.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher removes any credit that could be had from bussing him.

So hopping

off

of Ircher hard-townspews him.

This is a very charitable interpretation of Uncrowned’s posts. petapan was very adamant that Titus was Scum. Them asking them to explain their take and then saying something like “well it really depends on what you feel is and isn’t organic” is surely a soft defense. It’s planting a seed of doubt in the mind of a player that was loudly pushing for Titus. And then you’ll also notice how they’re trying to give Titus time by saying that this could be worth returning to after a few flips. Sure, after Titus has fully used their Rolecop ability and can be properly bussed for Town cred. This is also why Ydrasse is always Town btw.

[Andresvmb]

So we really aren’t looking at the game similarly mastina which is why I’m not trusting this push onto furtive. I will have to ISO there but I don’t think it’s right.

[Andresvmb]

Just to get it on the record - I suspect Scum wanted to be on Ircher early so not to get suspected given the slip. My thought was that Uncrowned moved away because they (i) chickened out and (ii) could maybe get some momentum going against Roden and divert the wagon away from Ircher. You see, both things can be true: it was advisable to push Ircher given the slip, but perhaps you get cold feet about murdering your Partner so early and look for a way to jump off.

[Andresvmb]

So it doesn’t hard clear Uncrowned that’s ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time.

And scum gain

what

from being off the Ircher wagon, Andres?
Scum not managing to get back onto Ircher get WHAT from it?

You're literally using your lack of presence on the Ircher wagon as a reason why you are town--

why are you not using the logic that makes you town, on Uncrowned?

The very things which make you town, make him town.

Like I’m not saying this and you’re equating two progressions that are decidedly not the same. It’s almost like you don’t read carefully enough. I was never on Ircher, and I questioned the slip. Uncrowned acknowledged the slip, but found ways to shade every other player around them (and a lot of flipped Town) while not strongly pushing Ircher, and then found an excuse to jump off onto a Town slot that was later mis-executed.

But sure, you convince yourself they’re the same thing.

[Andresvmb]

When your biggest SR claims Vig with a shot that makes sense and they’re not counterclaimed, you assuming that it shouldn’t shake my confidence or my view of the game fire is nonsensical to me.

[Andresvmb]

I was unsure about Roden. I had considered Luke’s argument about the vote movement closely and I was beginning to think I was wrong. I didn’t have time to move and this may come across as revisionist history to you but it doesn’t matter because it’s the truth.

[Andresvmb]

And sure you may expect my reactions to Titus being “Scum who knows their Partner is going down”. You know what they actually are though? Town who finally sees bullshit and isn’t letting them get away with it. But you seem to be interpreting everything I do in the worst possible way so you do you. You’re wrong and the game will prove itself out but I don’t think I need to spend a tremendous amount of time proving that yet.

[Andresvmb]

And again just to be more precise - I don’t think any of the Scum defended Ircher. I don’t think all of them necessarily voted for Ircher, but if they all caught the slip (and clearly they did since Titus was pushing it super early and obviously they all came to the conclusion that distancing was the better choice given Titus’ play), then you should consider how I responded to Ircher versus how Uncrowned reacted to the slot (a vote, shade, not really strong arguments against Ircher, and loudly advocating for two days straight for the execution of Town). As much as it suck to hear, me being wrong or not sure in the face of a relentless push by a Town with sway doesn’t make me Scum.

[Andresvmb]

furtive doesn’t strike me as Scum so I’m not voting there. If they are, great. Then you can execute me next and I can be removed from the POE for defending Scum twice then. But I don’t buy that execution at all and it just screams of being wrong to me.

[Andresvmb]

I was wrong about Titus. That should square it. Like I didn’t expect Scum to push Ircher after their slip so consistently. They did. Which is why my perspective on the point has changed. I felt Scum wouldn’t have bailed so early. It seemed harsh on a Partner. But I think I was wrong to think that. And it seems the Scum, at least at first, didn’t want to be found not pushing Ircher after their immediate slip. And hey look I respect the skepticism about Uncrowned. Because Uncrowned ended up moving away. It’s just that I don’t think every Scum all the time has the nerve to sink their Partner all through to the end.

And hey, the execution should have given Town more incentive to keep pushing since we had gotten Scum and were off to a promising start. And Uncrowned has shrunk as the time has kept going. Not the other way around.

[Andresvmb]

But honestly I don’t care you don’t think my reaction isn’t “genuine Town”. You’re still wrong. When I have a strong feeling a player is Scum, I don’t give it up easy. I’m stubborn. Hence, my reaction. I don’t even know what having a natural progression means. I was pushing someone as a hard SR, and fighting them on their views. Which btw, I was right to question. Lukewarm was Town. I didn’t waver from that and I felt Luke was full of shit because of that.

[Andresvmb]

^Vivax was full of shit*

[Andresvmb]

And sure you may expect my reactions to Titus being “Scum who knows their Partner is going down”. You know what they actually are though? Town who finally sees bullshit and isn’t letting them get away with it. But you seem to be interpreting everything I do in the worst possible way so you do you. You’re wrong and the game will prove itself out but I don’t think I need to spend a tremendous amount of time proving that yet.

and again i just don't really think this is how town responded? like you stick out pretty strongly reading back as someone who really wanted to make sure everyone was aware of how much we needed to eliminate titus, i don't think anyone was performative to that same extent. so saying "well of course town would have this reaction" just doesn't really do much for me bc most of town didn't

like at the time you said that obviously we were eliminating titus. the "im not letting you get away with this!!" just screams performance to me

Okay great. It screams performance to you. It wasn’t. You can be Pune what you want like if you’re going to keep pushing me with analysis that’s all how you “feel” and how you think Town should have played that then sure, what do you want me to do? I reacted like I would as Town. That’s how I play. I have seen obvious Scum in this forum get away with murder with a complicated claim because Town screwed it up. I wanted to ensure that didn’t happen. I’m sorry you think it was too over the top.

[Andresvmb]

^I don’t even know why Pune came as autocorrect. I think I was trying to say that you can “believe what you want”.

[Andresvmb]

I went back and I read most of Titus’ ISO - can someone explain why 3008 is a remotely acceptable vote? Isn’t S_S townspewed here from Titus’ constant push there?

[Andresvmb]

@Klick can you give me a summary of your reads at the moment? I read through your ISO and what I noticed is that your reads are jumping quite a bit. Not in like a bad way or anything, I’m just not currently sure what you’re seeing. Because obviously you are fluctuating wildly on fire and RCE/Dannflor, and I want to get a better feel for those players.

[Andresvmb]

Can someone read Penguin’s ISO and tell me why I shouldn’t Scum Read the slot?

[Andresvmb]

Okay I need to stop adopting general rules about what the Scum did. It’s clearly not working.

I think Uncrowned’s vote for S_S is a joke. I can’t stand here and say S_S is never Scum I mean that would be absurd. But Titus pushed there consistently, and I would think this means S_S is more often than not a bad execution.

Also, I know Penguin is not here and that pushing a slot that’s VLA for a week (I mean, really?), is maybe not the best look. But I’m struggling with their ISO. There isn’t a whole lot of Town positive pushes or interactions there. And look maybe my first reaction about how I expected Scum to react to the slip isn’t entirely ridiculous. Yes, it didn’t apply to Titus and it failed me there big time. But Penguin does end up finding a way to land on Ircher late (and tell me that vote doesn’t look somewhat like a bus), while questioning the slip repeatedly towards the beginning.

Anyway, I don’t know what to do here. I don’t think fire is Scum despite them pushing me this much. I mean there’s enough conviction there I think they genuinely think this is my Scum game. I don’t think furtive is Scum either. But I’m not finding myself thinking that mastina is Scum for pushing furtive so loudly.

[Andresvmb]

@Klick, Something_Smart, can you both put a vote down or signal what it is you want to do? I think we need to start moving towards a consensus of sorts.

[Andresvmb]

Okay that’s fine but you can still vote. It doesn’t need to be fully explained and I’m not asking you to lead. But based on what you have read, what do you want to do?

[Andresvmb]

I don't have a concrete reason for it in my head but Dannflor doesn't feel like scum to me.

I, however, DO have a concrete reason for Dannflor being town!
Of the living players, he was THE strongest pusher of both Titus being scum AND Roden being town. He didn't just say "Titus is scum, Roden is town" and then let Roden die; he actually HARD-PUSHED for trying to eliminate Titus on D2.

That makes him just as clear as Lukewarm.

Exactly jjh/S_S doesn't seem right, they're also two players that I don't think I'd get a solid townread on easily if they were town (I do think one scum there is probably a good shout though?).

Something_Smart is pretty much hard-spewed not scum from Titus/Ircher interactions.

That, aside from Something_Smart looking town by play.

So even if it were jjh (and I don't think it is), he'd need a scumbuddy.

I've given my reasons for thinking furtive + fire works as a scumteam.
What works as a jjh scumteam? Not much!

@mastina, since you believe this, what do you make of Uncrowned’s vote for S_S today?

[Andresvmb]

This is how I have the game right now btw:
Strong Lean Town
{Ydrasse}
Lean Town
{Malakittens, Something_Smart, Klick, fireisredsir}
Slight Lean Town
{furtiveglance, mastina}
Neutral
{Dannflor [RCEnigma]}
Slight Lean Scum
{PenguinPower}
Lean Scum
{Uncrowned}
Uncertain
{jjh927}

I need to ISO jjh but I haven’t found the time and I need to go put a piece of furniture together. So I won’t be back until tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

I’m trying but I’m not sufficiently confident to scream for anyone’s head.

[Andresvmb]

Am I supposed to do anything here? I mean I’ve tried giving my reads and reading through slots and I’m voted by some of the slots I actually thought would never vote me.

[Andresvmb]

Like Ydrasse voting me here is dreadful. I understand some of the skepticism from fire who is just wrong and will never leave the tunnel. I really can’t picture you plotting to sink Titus like you did only to get enough Town cred to win as Scum, so I’m really confused. Why not ask me questions? What of my game do you think I could actually replicate as Scum? And have you even seen me play as Scum?

[Andresvmb]

And if I’m Scum, why am I even bothering to read through slots that are more peripheral to what’s actually occurring today? It’s like surely I’m looking to clear slots as Scum upon my flip that would make it what, harder for my supposed Partner to win? I just don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I need to get a better sense of who you think is scum

I feel like you’re afraid to push anywhere

It’s all defense no trying to solve the game which you really should be as town if you are this uncertain about who scum could be

I literally gave you a ranking of all of the slots in the game. And I think I’ve commented on basically everybody. My next ISO was going to be Mala who I read through some of their posts and I didn’t think there was much solving there. But they defended me so consistently I can’t bring myself to attack the slot. And I had some homework in that I needed to justify the summary I provided for Klick but I didn’t get around to it just yet.

[Andresvmb]

And yeah I am tentative. I don’t feel confident enough right now to lead.

[Andresvmb]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

this game, for instance

which malakittens was not in

What is your point about my play that game btw? I’m not sure I follow what it is you’re trying to say.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but your ranking has no outright scum reads, me at neutral, and jjh at uncertain

Like, there’s no urgency behind fixing that

I feel like as town your top priority would be sorting me and jjh but I don’t really see that?

Like mechanically you are doing the work of ISOing and sorting but I feel like your heart isn’t in it exactly? Like you are sorting but not reaching any solid conclusions. Which is fine… I’m often uncertain too, but I don’t really get the sense you feel like you need or even particularly want to fix that

I have a Lean Scum in Uncrowned that basically no one agrees with, and I am somewhat skeptical of PenguinPower for various reasons I have already explained. I’m actually beginning to feel okay about your slot funny enough (if you just wanted to get rid of me as the easiest execution, you wouldn’t be asking me questions as openly as you seem to be, but rather condemning me in a way similar to how fire say is arguing against my slot), which makes me doubt fire’s alignment a bit more.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t agree that my heart isn’t in it btw. Me expressing uncertainty does not speak to motivation. I may be busy sometimes during the week and my job is just heavy at the moment (which is why I haven’t signed up to any games in months). But when I’m here, it’s not like I’m not here trying to solve. If I was just hanging out or just defending myself that would be one thing. But I’ve tried looking through votes, reading through Titus’ comments, read through the beginning multiple times, ISO’ed multiple players. Like I don’t get how you come to the conclusion that I’m not at least trying.

[Andresvmb]

my point was malakittens was using a point of reference that was you low posting and basically flaking out as scum

I just linked that game to show that you can obviously do a lot more as scum. That doesn't mean you *are* scum I just don't think malakittens' read is good

Yeah I mean I don’t roll over as Scum all the time obviously. I don’t like to lose so if I have the time I’ll put effort in as either alignment. But I think I’ve been much more transparent here with my thoughts. I just don’t understand how you can see a Scum agenda behind what I’m pushing. So I tried to condemn Titus after trying to make sure the focus stayed on them (and I was criticized for it) in a game where their execution makes me look a bit foolish… instead of defending them all the way? Like why? You can’t play as Scum to defend all of your blind spots but surely you must think I had some motivation to try and protect Titus not to be linked with them and I don’t do that after Roden flips Town.

[Andresvmb]

But I have expressed Scum Reads. It’s just that some of it has been short circuited because mechanically the game has shaken out in weird ways. Titus was caught lying and I didn’t for a second doubt myself there. And that stopped me from immersing myself in the play and analyzing the slot, which I clearly was in the middle of doing. mastina also hijacked a lot of the conversation yesterday with their mechanical push on fire. And I pushed against Vivax D1 quite strongly (particularly for their read on Lukewarm) and I was right on the read, wrong on the player. And I have been questioning Uncrowned sharply. If I didn’t want to get my hands dirty, shit I would be proclaiming some players are Town from the sidelines, saying whoever has the least amount of posts that they’re Scum, and avoiding the thread.

[Andresvmb]

To tell you the truth, I am uncertain on jjh because they feel like they’re almost deliberately avoiding posting a whole lot.

[Andresvmb]

Like what am I supposed to feel strongly about exactly? And there’s a lot of slots like that. But I’m getting blamed for having a lot of uncertain feelings on players, at a time when a lot of players are actively refusing to put votes down or play this game a whole lot.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly sometimes I feel like just sheeping mastina and calling it a day. And I mean I defended furtive quite loudly. Do you think I was wrong? Are they Scum to you? Because if they’re Town to you, do you think I have any motivation ever to try and break up a mis-execution today?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andres

Like this slot hasn’t read my posts but comes out of VLA to vote me when a wagon builds?

[Andresvmb]

I think you would have motivation to not be on a wagon that'll flip town and make it look convincing, but I don't necessarily think you were wrong no

Not after losing two of my Partners. In a vacuum, yes. Today? Absolutely not. Never. I’m not suicidal as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I think people are generally overestimating the value of "scum would never bus with 2 scum left"

scum bus for no rhyme or reason

I was telling you what I would not do here as Scum. I can’t say what other Scum would do. I am not as confident in my ability to win at Endgame as Scum (in fact, I have lost more than a few games as the last Scum standing with everything on the line), mostly because I struggle with how to maneuver my past transgressions. So I would much rather have my Partner be well positioned for a win at the end and me take a fall if I have to. Which is why I would never stop a mis-execution that the Scum Team absolutely needs today. I don’t think I would care all that much about looking convincing or being on the right side of an argument about a Town player. But you know, wine and all that.

[Andresvmb]

@Mala, intention to hammer. So claim.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Malakittens

[Andresvmb]

jjh is cleared yeah?

[Andresvmb]

And that’s funny - I was thinking it was mastina for the last one. Thankfully I don’t have to look like a fool today.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think andres is scum but at this point I don't have any better ideas, other than Mala who you just all moved off of

even so

VOTE: Mala

This.

[Andresvmb]

There’s 5 votes on me there. I think Scum puts me at L-1. No reason to try and bus your Partner there.

[Andresvmb]

We know Mala is the other one who has been protecting me the whole time. But jjh hadn’t. So there’s really no reason for that post + vote unless they’re suicidal.

[Andresvmb]

The question in my head is whether Titus and Something_Smart have been engaged in distancing or not. And the other really suspicious player to me is PenguinPower.

[Andresvmb]

Since Scum can’t multi-task, Klick is cleared.

I also feel like mastina’s death implicates fire somewhat.