hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[MariaR]

Yeah I really think the holes in Luke argument that thety're trying to make up history here is clear esp with the ate post that is so obviously a bait that I'm sure you can see it Cape and if I was a wolf this wouldn't be a thing but if you have questions please ask. If we didn't just quickvote Titus for no reason we wouldn't be in this spot zzzz Let's not forget Luke/Enchant were part of the reason for that btw and the two people who weren't were...oh yeah me and you.

[MariaR]

My new copy of Pokemon comes in an hour so if I'm not here welll~

[MariaR]

I listen to my townreads if I wanted to seriously test if my partner was going to be voted or not I would’ve brought them up in a conversation already happening tbh

[MariaR]

me realizing nero was enchant

gdi I knew he was mafia

SAME called him out so fast my reads were goated this game just look at how Nero treated my slot.

Like, come on now.

[MariaR]

I legit forgot I haven't voted tbh B)

VOTE: Luke

[MariaR]

Luke's bull in a china shop level of confidence doesn't really match his actions if you look pre f5 and even when they strongarm'd Titus they just *shrug* and said it's Enchant and me without...any consideration or build up previously to support such a train of thinking. Combine that with the weird ate that was fully fake'd as a partner I think you can see how it really is just not a real thought and not a villager. It's very poorly staged and coming in here and just snap voting? Luke had a plan, a very obvious one but stuck too it the whole time.

[MariaR]

Hey Cape, you can vote Luke rn.

We win

both go back to Pokemon. Good deal? Good deal.

Even though the game is broken but uh details details

[MariaR]

Whoa it's almost like BCG tried to pocket me and direct his line of fire at you while Nero did the same and went after me and when Frog cased me the wovles jumped on it. Crazy yeah?

I guess the only thing on my mind rn is what's the biggest thing stopping you from just saying "yeah it's Luke"
pedit: Fair, I really was just sitting here wondering how you think I could be mafia when that game feels night and day to me but if you didn't read? Welp.jpg

[MariaR]

WE'RE GONNA TAKE IT HOME TITUS WHEWWWWW

[MariaR]

And yet, the whole time that she is fence sitting, she is calling me scummy for wanting to make sure that me and cape agree before either of us votes.

i looked at what you pulled up, didn't look like fence sitting to me

I mean... she:

-appeared to be actively using "I need to read more to be sure what is the right answer" as a reason to not vote yet
-while asking you to explain your math preference and
-making comments about thinking it could possibly be math.

maybe "fence sitting" is an over simplification of it, because yes, she said that she had a preference on Enchant, but she was never "ready" to lock in that vote. And her asking you to explain why you thought it was Math>Enchant looked like she was hoping you could give her a good excuse to switch.

You know, I'll throw you a bone here, let's use your gross over simplification of what happened here even though that wasn't the case and you can easily use context clues to see what did happen. If I wanted to see if Cape would switch I just don't need to bring up Math at all, I'm self-aware enough to know as a wolf how my posts will look in the thread, you don't just put a very basic "omg hey what do you think of this player" that's scum textbook 101. The only time I ever said it could be Math was that I "paused" at the gang up but besides that? Always Enchant.

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because

you

were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

Actions speak louder than words and you just sitting back even though you were the biggest on "Enchant scum" combined with your fake anger? Yeah, that's kinda a red flag. Like, your confidence does not match your play and it isn't even warranted you hard went at Titus. Didn't rethink. You didn't even stop to reconsider in lylo. You

always

stop to reconsider in lylo. You didn't do that because you were so dead set on the idea that I would never vote Cape over you and you're a wolf.

[MariaR]

I was looking at potential scum teams, and this approach made the most sense if she was partnered with Enchant.

All that busywork in that giant post you made, was just that...busywork a giant post to make it look like you were solving but if someone made that level of a big post and was truly solving it would make sense if you just stopped, looked at everyones posts. If you're looking over every team it makes no sense to come away with "one" team.

You're trying to use the defend you "weren't really sure it was Enchant" using that exact 1 line of text where you didn't dismiss Cape or Math as a wolf when we both know that was only tacted on so you could use it as a backway out and now you're trying to rewrite the meaning of what your words meant.

I called you out on this stuff days ago and you didn't answer.

Wanna know why you didn't answer? So you could answer it here and not have your words be damning. Because if you answered half the stuff I called you out on you'd have to go down on a ship you knew was sinking.

[MariaR]

Her next point is acting like it is somehow scummier:

-That I worked through math and enchant, but scouring through their isos, landed on it being enchant, cased out why, and then asked you to read and respond before we voted.

vs

- That she said she thought it was enchant, but was open to you convincing her that it was math, and then just kept making comments about back reading to avoid committing to a vote.

See, you're trying to compare our points like they're both excuses to not vote but here's where they differ in a major manner.

You came into the dayphase scounting teams, right? Assuming you're a villager, you want to convince Cape you're on the same page? Right? Okay, why is that stopping you from voting? Enchant self hammer? But you already think the two wolves are locked and if Enchant self hammers you're not gonna be the NK so? You'd have all the time today to convince Cape or Math. Plus, you weren't even doing the whole convining part at all. You mostly said a few comments and then went to me. Your actions. Do not line up. With your words.

vs

Me: Who was open to looking over every possiblity sure, you can call that wolfy I am willing to see that line, but when I openly was trying to use most of the day to read back (and you can tell I was reading back) to get a better answer so I wasn't fully tunneled. I was trying to solve and ask questions.

Your actions do not match up with the townie mindset you're trying to make them out to be, your thoughts do not go from point A to point B. see the issue?

[MariaR]

I would go over that quote wall you posted but it is legit "Look I totally wasn't locked on Enchant and was not as confident see" like that quote wall is supposed to answer it when, yes you were the most confident throughout the whole phase and I'm sure I do not need to convince Cape of that as they can go read it themselves. You've tried to grossly make-up history to fit your worldview. Hell, I've been tried to say "okay yeah sure let's look at that from a wolf view" to help you. Like, come on now haha.

[MariaR]

There is no reason for me to just... re introduce the wagon on my partner here.

-----

So my first vote day 3 was BCG, but then also only vote on Day 4 was on Johnny. I don't feel like I am prone to bussing, if anything, I would rather a partner go the distance then me doing it, I just... would not bus this slot so hard.

Johnny was going down with or without your help. That slot was dead as soon as it claimed the bodyguard, did you see how fast that slot went over? You weren't some key piece in getting them over like I was for Pooky for example.

As for BCG. Tbh, I could probably go back and while off the top of my head I believe that slot was already being talked about and if I had to put my money on it knowing BCG aka Koba, he was probably asking to be bussed, I mean how else were you gonna build up the cred you needed to win? Like, you're saying you just would not do xyz and sure, I've used that example myself so in theory they're both moot points but your point is you wouldn't bus already drowning slots 1 and 2.

My "I wouldn't bus" is being the reason at least 2 wolves are dead, big dif here.

Finally, I think that I would have just killed you Cape, instead of Math.

Math already thought that it was Maria, and at that point all I would have had to do is argue "Math, Maria is trying to WIFOM you into voting wrong by bringing you to ELO"

That seems like the path of least resistence, then coming in with you being the decider given you have scum read me off and on all game.

I can use this exact argument for why I wouldn't NK Toog. You're trying to act like this point isn't WIFOM when it is WIFOM. If you're gonna dismiss my point at least treat yourself fairly tsk tsk.

[MariaR]

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

You cannot think of a valid reason for why you were sitting there doing nothing when you claimed to be the most confident player*

I'm telling you guys scumhunting 101 if their actions do not line up with their words it's probably one of the most obvious wolf bus tactics in the world I use it to catch so many wolves. See, I can have a good villager game woooo

[MariaR]

I think it's obvious Luke is fumbling. If you need anything else Cape lmk.

[MariaR]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

Okay so...what happened between all the time Cape was talking and made it clear they were prob gonna vote Enchant, also while it's obvious you made up this reasoning on the spot because if this was how you really felt you would've stated this way sooner or made other actions during 5P to talk to Cape or Math for that matter but outright didn't.

Like you're trying to say you weren't that confident it was Enchant enough to pause and wait for Cape

when your own posts outright show you never reconsidered once never looked at any other angle. So yeah, I'm not buying that you were somehow not confident enough it was Enchant that you paused because it would "feel bad" for Cape.

[MariaR]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

These are your

only

posts in regard talking to Cape about trying to "convince" anyone and your case itself, the one you quoted was not even a good case, probably on purpose. Like, you're actibng like you spend most of the dayphase trying to get on the same page as Cape when you outright didn't, you meant the dayphase defending yourself from me and talking to Enchant to try and get some bs partner interactions.

Your main line of defend on why you're a villager legit doesn't even exist. You can't just talk it into reality.

[MariaR]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

Here's my meta: Cape you have a full scumgame that shows if I'm a wolf I know how to bus properly and play around mech to get me a win and I would not have gone silent during mech city as a wolf to get me a win. My wolf game is night and day to this.

But even without meta I think this is still easy.

[MariaR]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

You are just speaking into existence the idea that a townie would never hold off voting in ELO when they think that they have the answer just to get on the same page with another townie.

I responded by saying that that... is just how I approach games.

And you came back with "nuh, uh, a townie would never"

I didn't say a townie would never, you see the thing with mafia is nearly any answer has a likelihood of being correct. The idea of someone holding off on a vote to try and get on the same page with someone else they think is a villager is not an impossible outcome.

It's just a matter of how much that seems true and if it supports what you did, and I've proven multiple times you weren't doing that, you were just buying time and not even doing what you're trying to die on a hill doing.

[MariaR]

Ah yes. Lets just cut off all of the case, to reframe it how you want.

You can quote everything below that as many times as you want, it won't change the fact you trying to say those are "points to convince" are not even close to what they are and you're just trying to pretend it to further your point.

[MariaR]

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time? Like, I vote for information and BCG was a big hot topic, I didn't mind voting there regardless of who was on the wagon. You know for a fact this isn't as damning as you're trying to make it out to be.

[MariaR]

Wait, was the BGC vote during the whole mech thing? I think thatw as during the peak of my other mafia game and we were talking about mech city so I voted and sheeped and tabbed out. If that's the one we're talking about given my tr dropped via pocket kekw.

[MariaR]

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information. Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

This is just false. Like that's not how it works. You can look at the same information and come to a dif point depending on how you read something. Like, this isn't even a false point it is just an outright incorrect statement.

[MariaR]

Acknowledging the faults of ones own argument isn't really a bad thing like you're trying to paint it as this false thought process that never existed. I stand by the fact Toog played horribly and did nothing the entire game and then the moment he posted more then a single sentence in a post and started playing he became an obvious villager (crazy how that works)

[MariaR]

Your biggest selling point to this Maria wolf world is that I used the same logic in two opposite worlds...that is it?

We look at your other points: Toog died: Hey look you used the same argument for Math.

Me not voting was scummy: Hey look you did the same thing but even worse because you had no reason not to vote.

You have meta that proves you wouldn't: Hey look so do I

Every single argument point you've tried to use against me you can also apply to yourself, which if I was a villager in your shoes would make me pause and go "hm maybe I'm wrong" and not auto vote at daystart.
Also doesn't explain your fake anger that outright is an entire shift in your personality we've seen this game that's glaringly fake. Along with the fake confidence.

It's just that obvious tbh.

[MariaR]

engaging with her on it is pointless.

I have no counterpoint because of how obvious it is there are holes in my argument so Cape come save me. FTFY. <3

[MariaR]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

[MariaR]

Cape, I think that this is the line that really shows she is just deflecting, and not actually engaging.

Like... trying to frame it as why are you saying it is "impossible for reads to change and develop over time?" instead of... saying that her read changed, or why. And if her read did change, then why she moved off of it.

She is not actually explaining her actions here, she is *just* deflecting/discreditting the accusation. Like is she actually even saying that her reads swayed, or is she saying "why is Luke not considering that?"

The reason why I was not sitting there thinking "maybe her reads swayed bettween these two points" is because I was looking at her iso, and these three things are literally back to back in there.

What exactly am I supposed to be engaging with here? You're nitpicking my word choice. My

word

choice when you know they mean the same thing. Like, don't get me wrong I understand you need to push something here but you're trying to make a big deal over my word choice out of all things?

You're also not saying why what I'm doing is scummy, you're like, going down a checklist of what you think a mafia and a villager

should

do and calling it scummy like it's this black and white world like "Look Cape she didn't explain every single action see how scummy that is!" No, that's not scummy. You just want to make it appear that way because that's what a "villager" does. You're actually proving my own point with this on how you're just trying to fit into this mold that doesn't exist.

This level of confidence that made you snap-vote me in lylo. Is the same level of confidence you showed with Enchant but you didn't vote at all...hm odd. Plus, you didn't want to make Cape feel bad so you waited to vote, yeah? What about me here? If we're using that logic, I'm shocked you didn't want to ask me a few questions to be fully sure. You didn't take into account that part of "feeling bad" either hm? No, because you made that up on the fly lol.

[MariaR]

Her vote outside of her scum pool came right after she named that scum pool, and she never said one word about BCG the entire time that she was on the wagon, nor when she left.

"Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?"

Why would I ever think that this momentum was related to reads given the way she did it?

For a lot of this game, it turned into mech city and that makes my motivation/want to play a game go to near zero, plus when I had a dif game going on at the same time that was more fun? Yeah, I'm just gonna throw some votes around at times, but that doesn't mean you can't ask or do something about it? Cherry picking friendo. Cherry picking.

[MariaR]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

I don't normally drink a lot of water on the morning of my chemo day just because they give me so much saline during that anyways, but thanks for the concern I guess lol

How has your water intake been? lol

That makes sense, I wish you all the best and hope it keeps going well.

I've been trying to get better, ever since the one day I almost passed out at work (month ago dw) I've been taking an overly large water bottle wherever I go and trying to finish it in 2 hours and refilling it. Sort of works but lord how do people do that daily I have no clue.

[MariaR]

2) Just because I got to the thread already at the point of "betting the game on Maria being scum" does not mean that I did not think about the other possibilities.

I have already kind of explained why I thought Math and Cape were town.

And your constant play calling me scum over and over sure did not help me think you could be town, when I was looking at you,

The first part of this is purely convenient.

Someone calling you a wolf does not auto make them a wolf, you know that everyone who plays mafia knows that come on now. That's not a point, you didn't relook anything.

Okay, cool you have Math and Cape as town so:

You come into the dayphase and not rethink at all or ask questions you just snap vote but...where was that confidence with Enchant? If you really were a confident villager like you were claiming the whole time you would've insta voted Enchant, but you only do that here. And even then the backing you have makes the confidence strange and out of place to begin with.

I won't even get into the fact you've openly dodged a lot of my main points against you but I must go for now so.

[MariaR]

gg wp Luke ^^

[MariaR]

At least I can keep up my record of I’ll never be found as scum and so you should just listen to me~

[MariaR]

gg wp Luke ^^

Yeah, you too !

You and Titus combined has me SWEATING. Like yall knew my slot was scum with no room to be swayed before I even got here, and I just had to deal with that lmao

It's very impressive to replace into a scum slot and have 2 people wanting you dead to right, make it into lylo and winning. A big pat on the back is deserved to ya.

I ALSO TOLD YALL WE COULDN'T MECH OUR WAY TO A WIN B)

[MariaR]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

[MariaR]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

Sorry I misread you Maria

Used to it Math, no hard feelings, it'd be kinda mean if I got mad at you for reading me wrong.