Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

[T-Bone]

Most believable post

[T-Bone]

Phone glitch:

@TBone @Meuh

You’re shitting on me fine.

What’s your better suggestion?

Mine was actually a reaction to the previous post where Meuh said they were town but Meuh ninja'd me.

[T-Bone]

Probably won’t be able to catch up till closer to the weekend, apologies

I remember you from a previous game and I town read you correctly and very early on.

Which slot are you?

I found it, porkens is replacing toogeloo/maidcafe it is not changed in the OP

Thanks I didn’t know

What

[T-Bone]

i think my main issue skimming dds is mainly like. i feel like they're projecting rlly strong stances about mastina/math but not really putting in the legwork to actualize what they care about (mastina town ie why are you not kicking and screaming more trying to dismantle this wagon yk)

They are a slot allowing Nancy to do the real work.

I think if you're scum you benefit from Mastina in the game regardless of her alignment. Mastina is an easy player to park a town read on if you know that you aren't aligned with her.

t-bone this means you think DDS and PPF are a team?

At the time maybe? Sorry I'll need to go back and see the context. We didn't know DDS' special property at the time.

[T-Bone]

At the end of dusk 1 (functionally day 1), I seem to have passively learned that I can't target Mathblade or DDS with my ability. (I assume this is from the "being informed of events preventing me from targeting" thing)
At the end of noon 1 (functionally night 2), I checked Unwnd, and learned that they were attuned with the sun. (Therefore not Lunar Cult)

I'm not calling you out by quoting this, I'm looking for clarification.

But I thought we collectively deduced that VTs don't have attunement? It seems PRs are told their attunement yeah?

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Meuh if CSF is true I feel Meuh has to be converted.

What's the evidence for this? Day play wise

Meuh has been very quiet despite the TRs and not doing anything despite being vocal before.

It’s a noted shift.

Vocal compared to yesterDay? I don't remember her being that vocal then either, and today has just started.

She was vocal about her reads list. She came in loud intentionally on Dusk with info. There’s been a steady decrease in activity. I might have the day wrong as it blurs, but it’s noticable

I don't agree meuh has been the same since entering the game.

[T-Bone]

Maybe a little more passive now that meuh is getting votes, but I'll chalk that up to how meuh handles pressure.

[T-Bone]

Btw if any of you mofos scumreads me after i went and read everything, istg idk who you are or what alignment you ended up in, if you praise the sun or worship the moon, i'm going to find you, and i'm going to kill You.

Only scum would say this

[T-Bone]

At the end of dusk 1 (functionally day 1), I seem to have passively learned that I can't target Mathblade or DDS with my ability. (I assume this is from the "being informed of events preventing me from targeting" thing)
At the end of noon 1 (functionally night 2), I checked Unwnd, and learned that they were attuned with the sun. (Therefore not Lunar Cult)

I'm not calling you out by quoting this, I'm looking for clarification.

But I thought we collectively deduced that VTs don't have attunement? It seems PRs are told their attunement yeah?

Pretty sure they aren't. Unwnd had an attunement and was VT. No one has said they know their attunements (I don't).
My role pm's wording does make it possible for a townie not to have one, but I doubt that's the case; it'd make me able to insta-clear people, plus Unwnd had an attunement.

Right but you're an unreliable narrator for this specific question I'm asking.

[T-Bone]

Then if I die D1 PPF isn’t a beloved princess and meuh can’t check one burn one or some such.

Like I think we need to flip PPF here. If we just give lunar an extra night fine then they’re behind due to losing one.

I think the least risky time if PPF is town is now.

VOTE: PPF

I think I agree with this but let me get to present day to be sure.

[T-Bone]

Hmm.
So there's 4 alignment/attunement combos possible here:

Moon

Town

Sun

Town

Moon

Lunar

Sun

Solar

("Lunar" and "Solar" are the cult names, "Moon" and "Sun" are the attunement terms used for my role.)

Players with a lower amount of these combinations that make sense would be the best check here, since a result would be more meaningful.
I think it's unlikely to remove any of the possible

Town

+ either attunement combinations, since we have no real basis for determining a townie's potential attunement.
This means my role is unlikely to conf someone as scum, but could conf someone as a townie.
Therefore the best pick would be someone who's unlikely to be either

Moon

Lunar

or

Sun

Solar

.

If I get a

Moon

result on someone unlikely to be

Moon

Lunar

, they're very likely town.
If I get a

Sun

result on someone unlikely to be

Sun

Solar

, they're very likely to be town.

So essentially, someone who doesn't make sense as a member of one cult should be checked.
Our best lead towards that is probably MMR's lim and everything surrounding it, but I didn't read any of it
Scum are unlikely to spill partners, but I could see them spill people they aren't partnered with.
So I think the best option is to look for someone who doesn't make sense as an MMR partner and hope we get a

Moon

result to clear them.

If that's the case and we don't lim you then you know that Rat and I can only be Lunar. Or rather I know that for sure, everyone else can only infer based on our claims.

[T-Bone]

To be clear, my role pm says that "some" town members are sun attuned and "some" town members are moon attuned.

This wording could realistically mean both "some but not all" or "all" but things have pointed towards everyone having one.

Pedit: PPF and RR have both claimed PRs without claiming attunement, right? I don't think either of them have mentioned knowing theirs.

This is basically what I'm looking for clarification on from players we basically know have a PR.

[T-Bone]

A large part of me wants to punt and take a flip on Toog or Ydrasse though. Decisions

[T-Bone]

Literally everyone with a PR has been cagey about full claiming so no, it hasn't been said 1000 times.

[T-Bone]

I have this strange sentation, that shit is gonna go down next night

there's no resistance to DDS

If DDS is scum then we also have to flip Math. Which is fine!

But I don't see a world where they are town/scum. They are either both town or opposing scum.

[T-Bone]

There's a small chance at asynchronous scum teams, since we have at least a little bit of evidence of it. But not a big enough chance where if one flips scum we'd ever spare the other. But also not a big enough chance where if one flipped town we'd lim the other either.

[T-Bone]

They chose 2 names here (you and Dingle)
Did they not?

Too much information???

[T-Bone]

If the blessing was some sort of recruit-become-a-traitor-thing, why would it be announced in-thread

I didn't say anything about either of you being recruited or being a traitor. What?

[T-Bone]

I have this strange sentation, that shit is gonna go down next night

there's no resistance to DDS

If DDS is scum then we also have to flip Math. Which is fine!

But I don't see a world where they are town/scum. They are either both town or opposing scum.

I disagree with this assumption.

As I said I will never need to be elimmed. I will end up dying. The more protown I am the longer I live.

Of course you disagree with this assumption but you don't get a vote!

[T-Bone]

Y'all can also stop subtweeting me about how your power role is singularly the most important role for the town. Your pleas are falling on deaf ears!

[T-Bone]

Confirmed town :p

[T-Bone]

I think Professor slipped information that he has that no one else does. I cannot explain this any other way.

[T-Bone]

I know MMR named Math/DDS as final scum reads.

But at no point did anyone suggest that scum choose Math and DDS for their blessing at the end of our first phase. Where did Prof get this from? Why does he think this, and why does he say it as if it is common knowledge? That last part is key.

[T-Bone]

Oof I suggest Math is scum if DDS is scum and he turns fast.

[T-Bone]

Oh I guess I also said I don't care that he says his PR is all important trololololol

[T-Bone]

*is allegedly suspicious for a while by play

*only says something now that his own position in the game is being openly questioned

I mean, it's laughable. I think DDS is town and was cautioning against that wagon, but I hint you can be scum, say that your role can't be important enough to not flip, and you panic? Do I have that right?

[T-Bone]

That is rhetorical of course I'm actually asking the other players before I get too ahead of myself. I think I have that timeline right.

[T-Bone]

I'm trying to understand Math's play and all I can see is a weird panicked reaction to being suggested he might be scum.

Like he quoted 5744 but the post of mine he is referring to is me making a sarcastic post where I said meuh's most believable post is when meuh said she is just a poor townie with a bunch of smiley faces. I even corrected the record!

Mine was actually a reaction to the previous post where Meuh said they were town but Meuh ninja'd me.

[T-Bone]

So explain to me why Math quotes 5744 and says "aha I've been feeling T-Bone as scum for awhile!" In what reality?

[T-Bone]

So explain to me why Math quotes 5744 and says "aha I've been feeling T-Bone as scum for awhile!" In what reality?

This one because it is true.

Then explain why you've picked a post not addressed to you, and a post that I have now clarified for you twice that had nothing to do with you?

[T-Bone]

You need a calcium supplement then bruh.

[T-Bone]

Can’t be a slip when wolves clearly can’t choose cause it seemed like it was something that happens Pre-game.
Fuck it wouldn’t even make sense, why would factions choose each others can’t kill. Wouldn’t both teams just choose their fucking selves and there be no town of them?

But you suggested this very thing!

[T-Bone]

Don't lie and say you didn't. If it was your hydra partner would made the post and you didn't realize that's fine, but that's also not my problem if you're not on the same page.

[T-Bone]

Guys. Professor suggested that scum made a choice about DDS/Math getting that thing at the end of our first phase.

And then just lied about it saying they didn't and that doesn't make sense.

It's a bold faced lie.

[T-Bone]

I have this strange sentation, that shit is gonna go down next night

there's no resistance to DDS

If DDS is scum then we also have to flip Math. Which is fine!

But I don't see a world where they are town/scum. They are either both town or opposing scum.

Why is that?
What stops a wolf from naming 1 town and 1 teammate?

Here it is right here. What stops them from naming 1 town and 1 teammate in response to my assertion that DDS/Math are the same alignment because I think that's how the setup would be balanced. Why did Professor have scum making this choice on his mind when I didn't suggest that?

[T-Bone]

This is caught scum would accidentally revealed a mechanic in the game that we didn't know about until he slipped.

[T-Bone]

Can’t be a slip when wolves clearly can’t choose cause it seemed like it was something that happens Pre-game.
Fuck it wouldn’t even make sense, why would factions choose each others can’t kill. Wouldn’t both teams just choose their fucking selves and there be no town of them?

But you suggested this very thing!

Don't lie and say you didn't. If it was your hydra partner would made the post and you didn't realize that's fine, but that's also not my problem if you're not on the same page.

Dude I don’t even think TicTac has been posting.
Also stop spreading agenda and show your work.
Start Quoting a Post can I NEVER said that your blatantly lying to me, keep it up and I’ll consider it a wolf claim towards me.

I have literally shown my work. Now you're saying "but I didn't mean it like that". That's better than pretending you didn't make the post at all but only marginally.

[T-Bone]

And I was giving you a benefit of the doubt chance by bringing up your hydra partner, I thought for a moment it was possible you didn't realize what you had said because your partner had said it.

[T-Bone]

I'm pretty confident Professor is caught scum. Can't explain his scumslip away, and resorts to insults and threats to deflect from it.

[T-Bone]

Plus T-bone/Prof just... doesn't look T/T here. There's no way both of them were acting in good faith all throughout. I think Prof looks townier and has a townier claim with the whole leaving the game thing, so also not great for T-bone.
I think Prof didn't scumslip and T-bone's certainty on it looks agenda-motivated. To be clear, I could see a townie end up thinking it was a scumslip. However, there's no sign of reconsideration or hesitation at all, nor actually engaging with the perspective that it wasn't a slip. I reconsidered it being a slip after Prof posted some more, Junko wasn't too sure on it. That's how I expect a townie to think. T-bone saw an opportunity and simply took it.

It doesn't look town because Prof isn't town. Your assertion here is not correct. I gave Prof chances to explain. How is that not hesitation or reconsideration on my part? The person not hesitating and reconsidering is Prof. When prof first made the slip I asked for an explanation in 6130. Then when DDS had also speculated on the scum picking the traitor thing that prof had come up with, I asked why he was doing that. Then I asked AGAIN in #6162 where Prof was getting this idea from. Then I clarified again in #6260...and only in Prof's #6267 did he provide an explanation "I didn't mean what you think I mean".

I'm doing the work, meuh. Prof is not. Don't give me this BS.

[T-Bone]

Looks meuh!

They chose 2 names here (you and Dingle)
Did they not?

Too much information???

If the blessing was some sort of recruit-become-a-traitor-thing, why would it be announced in-thread

I didn't say anything about either of you being recruited or being a traitor. What?

I think Professor slipped information that he has that no one else does. I cannot explain this any other way.

I have this strange sentation, that shit is gonna go down next night

there's no resistance to DDS

If DDS is scum then we also have to flip Math. Which is fine!

But I don't see a world where they are town/scum. They are either both town or opposing scum.

Why is that?
What stops a wolf from naming 1 town and 1 teammate?

Here it is right here. What stops them from naming 1 town and 1 teammate in response to my assertion that DDS/Math are the same alignment because I think that's how the setup would be balanced. Why did Professor have scum making this choice on his mind when I didn't suggest that?

[T-Bone]

I just think there was a chain of miscommunication

Either that or a slip, i had to read it like three times tho

Okay so what I think happened:

T-bone said Mathblade/DDS can't be town/scum (because of them both being mod-confirmed not to be in a cult at the same time)

Prof thinks the reason why Mathblade/DDS can't be town/scum is that MMR mentioned that they could be traitors before dying.
Prof didn't remember the whole dusk 1 thing with Mathblade/DDS and assumed T-bone was referring to MMR saying they could be traitors.
Prof says that a wolf could "name 1 town and 1 teammate", in reference to what MMR said.

To T-bone (and others, including me), this sounds like a slip, like Prof is saying that scum chose Mathblade/DDS on dusk 1.

Prof still doesn't get it and doubles down.

I mean you thought you saw a slip too. You're being more charitable then I am though as Prof first claims he didn't say it, and then clarifies and says he didn't mean it. If he didn't try to claim he didn't do it, I think I'd be more charitable too.

[T-Bone]

That was at CSF

[T-Bone]

I even considered the possibility that one head said it and the other didn't realize. What more do you want from me, meuh?

[T-Bone]

I wasn't talking about MMR's post. I had to go back and see what he was even referencing later. He responded to my initial claim that I think DDS/Math have to be the same alignment because of game design basically. And then he suggested scum could choose them. That was the sequence of events.

[T-Bone]

We left a fun crumb for T-Bone Dawn 1, trying to find it but I'm wondering if he noticed it

I don't usually notice crumbs sorry.

[T-Bone]

I don't even remember the context of that post but imma be honest it looks sus out of context now lolol

[T-Bone]

It's a bad crumb if so not gonna lie. But it also means I now have confirmation of two separate abilities used on me. I don't think DDS could lie?

Although I don't recall DDS town reading me day 1, and I'm pretty sure I didn't town read them at that point either.

[T-Bone]

T-bone can you confirm you got the result?

I got a mod message the follow phase saying I was targeted for a burn but it failed.

Rat claimed to have protected me from this action. Now DDS has claimed they are the reason I have gotten that message.

So like, it's weirdly specific that both actions would result in this message. Why wasn't my message "you were targeted for a burn and you were protected?" That might be semantics on my part. That's an oddly specific fakeclaim if it was fake though, yeah? Rat/DDS could coordinate if they are scum together but that seems like a nonsensical long term play? While I was universally town read I'm not the town leader.

So the tldr is that I think both actions are true and I have confirmation of it. For the rest of you that ties me to two slots as possible partners.

[T-Bone]

I'm just trying to think... What is the purpose of a role like that? It has to be used on someone who won't die through the night, because the target needs to be alive to report watch results

The target also can't be recruited, because otherwise they'd just lie about their results

What other things can happen to people overnight? It can be used to verify claims and that's about it... And then only useful if someone announces their target ahead of time

What do you think, DDS?

Weak town power theory maybe?

Rat never indicated that his role caused me to be notified of the protection. I always assumed that was the case. So do you think there's a possibility DDS is taking something that happened to me and claiming it for their own actions?

[T-Bone]

T-bone can you confirm you got the result?

I got a mod message the follow phase saying I was targeted for a burn but it failed.

Rat claimed to have protected me from this action. Now DDS has claimed they are the reason I have gotten that message.

So like, it's weirdly specific that both actions would result in this message. Why wasn't my message "you were targeted for a burn and you were protected?" That might be semantics on my part. That's an oddly specific fakeclaim if it was fake though, yeah? Rat/DDS could coordinate if they are scum together but that seems like a nonsensical long term play? While I was universally town read I'm not the town leader.

So the tldr is that I think both actions are true and I have confirmation of it. For the rest of you that ties me to two slots as possible partners.

So, to be clear, did you get a message on Night 1 saying if anyone watched you?

No.

I thought you were claiming you were the reason I got the message about the burning failing. Is that not what's happening?

[T-Bone]

I received the failed burn message on Noon 1 to be clear. I didn't receive a message at any other point.

[T-Bone]

botched claims -The game

Is this the part where I claim masons with you?

[T-Bone]

Actually I claimed masons with enchant earlier in the game caught you lying scum

[T-Bone]

I received the failed burn message on Noon 1 to be clear. I didn't receive a message at any other point.

To be clear, I definitely should not have caused you to receive the burn message.

Well that explains my confusion!

[T-Bone]

Probably not. If you're town you can be undermined and if you're scum it doesn't matter much what you do with that ability.

[T-Bone]

botched claims -The game

Is this the part where I claim masons with you?

I'm obviously interestelar cop who dies if i'm limed sopleasedontlimimveryimportant but i can't use My power until noon 14 if the 33% chance of it being a blue moon phase comes to reality

Basically confirmed town now

[T-Bone]

Note that DDS is claiming to act during both Noon and Night. Every other role we know of that acts during the Night/Noon phases acts during ONE of them. The only exceptions we've seen are Math, who acts during the "day," and MMR/PPF who were both passive.

And this is why I have been incredibly skeptical of mastina's role claim!

Wait why are you skeptical if you act in a similar manner?

[T-Bone]

Also the notion of how the blessing works design-wise. As a reward for Town making a mislim, that's really weird. As a warning for scum that something's up and to steer clear of those slots, that makes sense.

So my pet theory is that how I would design the roles is to make both players scum, and then if one of them is limmed the other team gets vanillized as a catch up mechanic. But, I'm not in love with this theory because why if you wanted a catch up mechanic for both scum teams would you lock that to one slot on each team and not the whole team?

It's why despite thinking that DDS/Math have to be the same alignment that I think town is the correct design. Those two aspects of their roles makes sense if you consider them town powers.

[T-Bone]

Oh okay. I'm still skeptical attunement exists short of a mass claim (which I don't want).

[T-Bone]

Although Scarf seemed to believe it did based on his role though?

[T-Bone]

He still didn't refute my mason claim so he's not that honest

[T-Bone]

im fine with joining enchant wagon but enchant is really my poe scum. I don't really have a gameplay vibe enchant is scum/town here.
Ive been waiting to hear town cases on him. i think someone said they thought enchant town.

I think he's bleeding town.

[T-Bone]

So T-Bone do you still think I’m wolf that “slipped” lol
Do you still think I “lied” despite me explaining literally everything I have said?

Man like can you tell me who you think the Solar Cult are? Cause I’m Town Mate.

I mean when first asked you about what you said you denied it. Then you tried to insult me and make a threat that you will never play with me again if I'm town. Only after those things did you offer a clarification for what you meant. I would call that first thing lying and that second thing an attempt at emotional manipulation. Maybe had you not done that I'd be more inclined to believe you. Instead of blaming me for thinking you have scumslipped blame yourself for posting the way you did initially and the way you handled it when pressed. I think those things mean you're scum tbh. I can't imagine someone who is town, who thinks they are a god tier player as town, would act like this when pressured. Because then either you're not town or you're not as good as you say you are. I think you're playing to the best of your abilities like I think every player does, and that you've made a mistake and have revealed yourself as scum.

[T-Bone]

Professor's next post had I said that he, X, Y, and Z are solar would have been "aha you're only searching for solar cult cause you're lunar!" So I'd sooner skip that nonsense. There are a few players who I feel could be either scumteam including Prof in my PoE. I think the players who cannot most likely could only be a member of one scumteam (DDS, Math, Rat, to make off the top of my head) are also more likely to be town.

[T-Bone]

Wow word salad lol. I think the players who are confirmed as not on one scumteam and who are most likely not one scumteam* is what I meant to write to describe those players. DDS/Math is confirmed to all of us and Rat is also confirmed not solar to me.

[T-Bone]

Let me redirect my focus, Prof and I have already given our opinions on his posts.

I've only gotten opinions from meuh and CSF about Prof. Setting aside the slip that may or may not be scum, what about Professor's play makes you think what you think about their alignment (town, scum, or null)? Is it something they are doing? Is it because you don't think scum could do that commuting type action they did? What do you see about Prof's play that I'm not seeing at this point?

[T-Bone]

And I’m sorry T-Bone but again your job is to execute Solar and I’m sorry to tell you but I’m Town.
You need to push Solar if you want any chance at winning.

Because right now I’m just gonna spite vote Lunar cause of the way they are acting.

Except if this were true and you were town I am the better vote because I claimed VT. But you're not so this isn't a concern for you.

[T-Bone]

Been in contested hearings and just needing to be away from people. I keep trying to get back in the game but lol nope.

~Titus

I mean, we can get you out in a heart beat

You are still an option

You could, but that's not the wisest manuever.

Right now, the thread and the site is basically loud accurate people get noosed. My biggest SR is professor but Nancy doesn't want it. So we're voting wherever she wants.

~Titus

Nancy I want this too! Listen to Titus and let's get scum!

[T-Bone]

I think Enchant is solar scum though... and nothing anyone is saying makes me rethink this
Would be nice if anyone actually had some sort of substantial defence of Enchant instead of very vague townreads

Who is 6444 referring to? My slot?
I'm town, fyi

Because when Enchant contributes Enchant clear shows town thought processes. Yeah I can understand finding Enchant frustrating because the contributions are few. I sometimes find it frustrating too. When Enchant gives their opinions I think it shows Enchant coming from a town mindset.

[T-Bone]

I also believe Enchant town slipped at the time when we both revealed we were clueless about the attunement of Mastina's claim because our PMs don't mention anything about it. So like to me, that shows me Enchant was thinking the same way I was, and since I'm town, I'm inclined to trust people who have similar thoughts to me. That second bit is specific to me, but that's the other reason I read Enchant as town.

[T-Bone]

I don't think DDS is flipping scum. Prof is definitely the likelier option for a scumflip.

[T-Bone]

I'd compromise on Toog or Ydrasse though.

[T-Bone]

But seriously town does not post like Prof's last three posts. If you all flip DDS and flips town I want no resistance to flipping Prof tomorrow.

[T-Bone]

I'm not convinced they are either. That wagon is especially sticky, and no one has engaged with my points there

Toog also didn't know his attunement and claimed VT at some point, if you're considering that a real town slip

@Meg

shouldn't deadline be paused because we're waiting on a replacement?

UNVOTE:

I think slip is the wrong word. This situation that I believe Enchant for happened in real time. We've since learned later that attunement isn't mentioned in anyone's PM as far as I'm aware.

[T-Bone]

But seriously town does not post like Prof's last three posts. If you all flip DDS and flips town I want no resistance to flipping Prof tomorrow.

How does he sound different here from LOST though?

If your tone reading Prof, you know they have a consistent tone.

Tbh if I were to compare there were times in Lost I felt Prof was trying to find scum and advance the game, especially early on. Prof was even doing it early on in this game enough where I leaned null to town on them on our first phase. I don't think they are doing it now though. I think Prof slipped information that scum have in regards to the players who got the goddess blessings at the end of the first phase. But I also think they way Prof is speaking especially as I push back against him, implies that he isn't looking for a town win. Notice how fixated he is on the idea of punishing one scumteam and that he'd be okay with the other to win. I think that suggests a mindset that he is scum. That's what I meant when I said "town doesn't post like this".

I don't mean to come across as saying "well he doesn't town read me so he must want town to lose". It is like more gut here. He's so desperate for what I believe will be a mislim, he's so desperate to punish perhaps the other scumteam, that no it doesn't feel like Lost to me, and it doesn't feel like town to me. Now like I'm comparing based on memory or feeling, because I don't believe in meta as a tool in the way you do.

I think Prof feels they should be listened to and is now throwing a bit of a fit because they are getting pushback. Which again I think they are capable of that. Prof has demonstrated themselvesa player that crumbles under pressure or pushback. What makes this also not town for me is how little Prof seems to care about the town win condition. Which again is a little guy on my part. But I think Prof using language suggesting that one scumteam needs to be punished, rather than that we need to flip scum, is the difference here.

[T-Bone]

Dawn 1 Final VC

MMR (8) Radical Rat, Past Present Future, Mathblade, furtiveglance, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, Ydrasse , Firebringer, Unwnd, [Hammer]

Past Present Future (4) Scarfmanship, MMR, Toogeloo, Enchant,

Unwnd (2) Mastina, Yume

Not Voting (1) T-bone,

Deadline: 1 day*
With 15 alive it took 8 to eliminate.
Deadline was frozen for replacements.

It’s still my theory that at least one of the slots that jumped from us to MMR is probably scum, so maybe Dangle could be scum here? I can’t tell with Ydrasse but the way MMR over the top white knighted STD seems odd if they’re buddies and the arguing with FA doesn’t look partnery, so it has to amongst those three, I think.

Sorry, which three? DDS, and two others?

[T-Bone]

Oh Nancy, do you remember how Prof crumbles on day 1 when they were wagoned? I don't remember them doing that at any point during Lost, do you?

I feel like if you're a person who relies on meta, that's a pretty obvious difference, no?

[T-Bone]

Oh Nancy, do you remember how Prof crumbles on day 1 when they were wagoned? I don't remember them doing that at any point during Lost, do you?

I feel like if you're a person who relies on meta, that's a pretty obvious difference, no?

I don’t think they were ever actually wagoned on LOST until the day after they faked the guilty on DNA.

I'm also drawing the parallel to now. They aren't being wagoned atm but still reacting badly to pressure in a way I don't think they did in our last game together.

[T-Bone]

This gamestate just feels bad and I think our biggest obstacle as a town is going to be actually being able to effectively and actively work together, those 3 slots feel like we can maybe agree on them and the downside if they're town isn't too harsh. Maybe that's a bad perspective to have but it's the one I have at this point.

I agree and am okay with this. I'll need to reread why I think the Toog slot over the Ydrasse slot. Maybe I've just been saying it long enough that Toog is top of mind.

[T-Bone]

Maybe DDS is just scum, actually
This VC points to that in my eyes

Because you're the counter wagon in this VC or something else?

[T-Bone]

Pedit: Yeah, same thought as CSF here, this is why I think CSF is town, a lot of mindmeld

Still got a lot of partner equity here. You are just such a reasonable person that it overrides my desire to read your slot as scum argh

[T-Bone]

Actually I want to force T-Bone and Dingle to react here.

VOTE: Ydrass

Pedit: Yeah, same thought as CSF here, this is why I think CSF is town, a lot of mindmeld

Still got a lot of partner equity here. You are just such a reasonable person that it overrides my desire to read your slot as scum argh

Heehee I'll take that as a compliment, ty
Partner equity in me/CSF? That's fair honestly, we've been lined up on a lot of things. Tbh I wonder why partnered CSF and I would claim the negative action thing in a game highly speculated to have conversion, though. A few (irl) days ago I realized that CSF mentioning the negative action thing could've actually been a nudge by scum!CSF to me being converted that just never materialized to anything meaningful, which is my main concern regarding them at this point (this and potential pocketing, but why pocket me of all people?)

What do you mean by this? A nudge that you were converted? You think you wouldn't know, why?

[T-Bone]

I get you now.

[T-Bone]

Silly mobile quote issue.

[T-Bone]

I don't know what makes them pretty unlikely to be scum. Why do you think that?

[T-Bone]

I've forgotten why either RR or T-Bone can't be Lunar? Can someone remind me of that please. Because RR's role could be fine as a real Lunar role.

I don't think from your perspective that that's been a thing. If you believe the information we both claimed it only eliminates us from Solar.

[T-Bone]

all the other roles are fakeable af if you ask me, only reason we think RR is confirmed is because "t-bone received a PM" for example

occam's razor my dude, I think we are overcomplicating things

I don't think any role is alignment indicative.

But how do you complain about roles not meaning town in the same set of posts where you say Prof's role makes them town. What?

[T-Bone]

A counter example is that Rat is clearly town by play, and then for me I have additional confirmation. The play comes first always.

[T-Bone]

Which is literally what I am taking issue with.

[T-Bone]

Which is literally what I am taking issue with.

Okay explain me how this role is scum

i think issue is that role is not towny or wolfy it just is role should not impact read

Thanks, Ydrasse.

[T-Bone]

Professotic has disappeared without a trace. Their role was unknown.

Furtiveglance was eliminated. Their role was

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Professotic has reappeared. They rejoin the game.

@TBone. We have evidence of their claim being true. Our role otoh, can only be confirmed by flip. I think Prof sounds similar to LOST here.

Yay the role exists who cares?

I don't know if I can take your meta read serious, when I tried to engage you on it you dismissed me. I don't give a fuck about meta and I can clearly see it's different. So can your hydra partner!

[T-Bone]

That's fine, but Prof is scum so I'm gonna push back especially when you cite something that isn't alignment indicative as a reason.

[T-Bone]

i think best way to think about role if you want use to divine alignment is question the timing of use

it defensive role so was professor in line of fire for being killed as town? if no then why use, jump gun?
if not in apparent danger that we can see maybe a little wolfy to use to avoid being investigative

it circumstantial though so not great metric

It's pretty easy to see this role as scum. The biggest detriment to multiball games from a scum balance perspective is cross-kills. Great, game design solution, give a scum player a chance to dodge those cross-kills for a day or two.

My point being any role can be any alignment. If Prof was a towny player I might have been inclined to see his role as a town role too...but he's not so I don't.

[T-Bone]

Oh Nancy, do you remember how Prof crumbles on day 1 when they were wagoned? I don't remember them doing that at any point during Lost, do you?

I feel like if you're a person who relies on meta, that's a pretty obvious difference, no?

I don’t think they were ever actually wagoned on LOST until the day after they faked the guilty on DNA.

I'm also drawing the parallel to now. They aren't being wagoned atm but still reacting badly to pressure in a way I don't think they did in our last game together.

Okay, tell me how you think they’re reacting differently here because I’m not seeing it? And me and Titus not seeing eye to eye on reads shouldn’t really surprise anyone.

Prof never crumbled to pressure in Lost. Yeah prof is very self assured, abrasive and arrogant in both games, that's surface level. Prof never backed down in Lost when he received pushback. He didn't back down so much that he faked a guilty and pretended like it was a brilliant play. Whenever Prof gets pressured in this game, however he shuts down or throws a fit. He got like 3 votes on Day 1 in this game and completely shut down to the point where we had to beg him to come back to the game. He gets a little push back from me this day phase and absolutely loses it, taking about how he wants to punish town and punish Lunar for questioning him. He is so fixated on punishment rather than town getting a correct flip and winning. He also never did this in Lost. His behaviors when he gets pressured are not the same.

[T-Bone]

That's fine, but Prof is scum so I'm gonna push back especially when you cite something that isn't alignment indicative as a reason.

Well keep tunneling idc

How come you have not once chided Prof for tunneling?

[T-Bone]

Because Proffesor always tunnels(?)

Why is it an issue for you that I'm doing it?

[T-Bone]

Pocket me more often!

[T-Bone]

Because Proffesor always tunnels(?)

Why is it an issue for you that I'm doing it?

Because you are suddenly being obnoxious, I've changed My mind about people a few times since i joined, Math keeps jumping from one pole to the other but You are making a huge deal out of this and disregarding anything that doesn't click with your narrative

Prof is scum and there is a lot of resistance, so like that's frustrating for me. I need to know who is resisting and why because not everyone who is resisting is scum. Like I stopped arguing with Prof, I stopped responding to Prof to not clog the thread with that nonsense. You're just gonna have to live with me questioning you and others about this read. I don't know why anyone who is town would also read Prof is town. It's obviously something that is happening, I cannot deny that.

But when I asked you what you think about his play that makes him town you give me "well his role makes him town". You KNOW I was not asking about that. Yet you gave me that answer anyway and are now complaining that I am being obnoxious? Don't post if you're not going to answer, I won't be offended! (yes I know you have given a "well his gameplay is town and I read him as town answer" in a later post)

[T-Bone]

Also there's like viable counterwagon to DDS atm. At most we've managed what 2 votes elsewhere? I'm not eliminating a player I think is town.

[T-Bone]

We're on the same page. I have the Toog slot (I think Porken now), Ydrasse, PPF in my PoE. I know you quoted a few posts of Toog and said "this is town" but can you explain why?

[T-Bone]

You inherited a slot that I thought was pretty town (and haven't changed that with your play) so even if we don't agree your reads and reasoning are important to me, and I don't want you to take my frustration as them not being.

[T-Bone]

I got a message overnight that someone tried to burn me and failed. Sucks to suck Solar scum.

Here’s another opportunity for DDS.

DDS claims to have targeted me in that first night phase (can't remember the flavor name off the top of my head) and RR targeted me the second night phase and I got the message then.

[T-Bone]

Night 1 and Noon 1, respectively.

[T-Bone]

I'm not disputing that. Just clarifying that you and DDS claimed to target me in separate phases.

[T-Bone]

particularly the overlap with CSF's Watcher-type role,

I also see zero conflict with CSF's role

There's not an issue with more than one 'watcher'-type effects being in the game

The actual effect of my role is very easily confirmable if that's something that people want

You both perform the same basic function of determining if something happened to a target. Your claim is more powerful, but it's still peculiar to me that multiple roles would serve the same utility simultaneously.

If CSF only worked at Night and you only worked at Noon, or vice versa, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But CSF is claiming to set a target during Night and receive results until next Night. And you're claiming to actively choose a target and send results for both Night and Noon. It pushes the claims from being complementary to contradictory in my mind.

The roles are similar but have different power levels

Actually your use of the word 'complimentary' has made me realise that CSF and I are probably meant to target the same person to amplify the utility we both provide

That's actually silly? I've never seen an example of two roles randomly distributed that are supposed to coordinate.

[T-Bone]

How the fuck are dingle and ydrasse scum.
I swear.

Going back to work. This game is just amazin.

FB still pretty obviously town.

VOTE: meuh

[T-Bone]

Not my favorite vote because I really like meuh as a player but I just think she inherited a scum slot and this is the only vote people seem willing to do that isn't DDS.

[T-Bone]

Not my favorite vote because I really like meuh as a player but I just think she inherited a scum slot and this is the only vote people seem willing to do that isn't DDS.

My vote's still parked on Ydrasse.

I don't know I also feel like if Ydrasse is scum she would have to be a little accountable to her partners. I can vote there but the last VC had you at 3 too.

[T-Bone]

Shit fuck it I would rather continue playing with you at least one more phase.

VOTE: Ydrasse

[T-Bone]

You're too good at pocketing me XD

[T-Bone]

I don't know but Meuh is right every time we cite Mastina it's unfair to her as a player.

[T-Bone]

I don't know but Meuh is right every time we cite Mastina it's unfair to her as a player.

?? I don’t get it ??

Mastina = Meuh = same slot? Why is it unfair?

I'm talking OOC

[T-Bone]

Firebringer isn't even the biggest offender of that

[T-Bone]

No Firebringer I told you to stop joking in OUR scum pt

[T-Bone]

I'd rather have the dayvig right now not gonna lie

[T-Bone]

3 professotic (Hydra of Professordrapion and tictac)

this makes so much more sense now.

It is scum, we can take care of it anytime you want bb

[T-Bone]

Just a bit of movement, I'm going to drop the formatting I did on the previous list.

Obviously my confidence in Prof is very high. I've grouped together DDS/Math and CSF/Meuh because I think their alignments depend on each other a bit. Like I think DDS/Math are town but if one flipped scum I will assume the other is scum as well. If I wasn't tying the two slots together I'd rate Math much lower by play...but every time I think about these two slots I think they have to be town. I think Meuh/CSF have a lot of partner equity where if Meuh flipped scum I think that would mean CSF is scum too. But, I could see them as opposite alignments. I have a hard time seeing both as town because of the way the slots have interacted the entire game. Unfortunately I have so many people I think are town I could be wrong somewhere. But I just don't know who among my townreads I could be wrong on. Rat gets a little mechanical assistance but I think by play Rat is town. I think FB and Enchant are very obviously town. I am reasonably certain DDS is town, and honestly I think I have Junko too low as it is. I'm relatively confident on Toog given there's not a lot of slots left I think could be scum, Ydrasse also by PoE, and I think there's still a chance MMR thought PPF was solar and that explains their play.

Spoiler: Reads 3.1

Rat
FB
Enchant
DDS/Math
Junko
-Town Line of No Return-
CSF/Meuh
Ydrasse
PPF
Toog
Prof

Spoiler: Reads 3.0

Some Sort of Mech Thing
Rat
DDS
Math
Meuh
CSF

Kinda Mech
Prof

Town Lean
Enchant
FB
Scarf

The Rest
PPF
Toog
Ydrasse

[T-Bone]

Can people do a read ordered list for me?

I am having trouble getting a sense of overall scope from people.

It can be towniest to scummiest or vice versa have multiple people same spot don’t care.

Just an overview of the game as a whole.

ugh I think mine is more complicated than that but I'll try to put it in order, are you going to do the same?

Honestly probably not. I don’t want to give scum a hint on where I might fire.

Waiting until every player who is going to do a list to do so is fine, but you're not immune from being scum just because you have a daykill and our interest in your reads is more important than your role.

[T-Bone]

We're on the same page then!

[T-Bone]

A lot of that comes from my belief that MathBlade and DDS are entangled by the setup. I think both of them have played in ways that indicate they're opposing scum, so they both go to the bottom, but if one of them does manage to flip Town, I'll believe the other must be as well.

I will flip town but I think this is a flawed (maybe even sketchy) assessment.

I mean I have basically the same assessment except I think DDS is town so that makes you town

[T-Bone]

I think the only way you'd not be the same alignment is via the method I think Prof slipped knowing about (which is that scum chose DDS/Math at some point to receive the blessings). Which if true will change how I view this mechanic, but that will require confirmation via Prof's scumflip first. Until that confirmation happens my instinct is that your roles are designed to be the same alignment for the purposes of that blessing mechanic.

[T-Bone]

Just a bit of movement, I'm going to drop the formatting I did on the previous list.

Obviously my confidence in Prof is very high. I've grouped together DDS/Math and CSF/Meuh because I think their alignments depend on each other a bit. Like I think DDS/Math are town but if one flipped scum I will assume the other is scum as well. If I wasn't tying the two slots together I'd rate Math much lower by play...but every time I think about these two slots I think they have to be town. I think Meuh/CSF have a lot of partner equity where if Meuh flipped scum I think that would mean CSF is scum too. But, I could see them as opposite alignments. I have a hard time seeing both as town because of the way the slots have interacted the entire game. Unfortunately I have so many people I think are town I could be wrong somewhere. But I just don't know who among my townreads I could be wrong on. Rat gets a little mechanical assistance but I think by play Rat is town. I think FB and Enchant are very obviously town. I am reasonably certain DDS is town, and honestly I think I have Junko too low as it is. I'm relatively confident on Toog given there's not a lot of slots left I think could be scum, Ydrasse also by PoE, and I think there's still a chance MMR thought PPF was solar and that explains their play.

Spoiler: Reads 3.1

Rat
FB
Enchant
DDS/Math
Junko
-Town Line of No Return-
CSF/Meuh
Ydrasse
PPF
Toog
Prof

Spoiler: Reads 3.0

Some Sort of Mech Thing
Rat
DDS
Math
Meuh
CSF

Kinda Mech
Prof

Town Lean
Enchant
FB
Scarf

The Rest
PPF
Toog
Ydrasse

So same question to you TBone:

Your premises and conclusion don’t seem to match.

You say your premise of me/DDS is faulty if Prof is scum. Yet you think prof is scum. This doesn’t add up.

You think Fire is town yet don’t push on CSF or Meuh why?

I'm prioritizing my reads over mech speculation because while I know what I would design as a mod I don't know what Meg will do. I'm much like some others before me, explaining how my reads might change if we get some flips.

I literally voted for Meuh yesterday. I'm not Firebringer so it's not my responsibility to push his scumreads. I have other players ranked lower then them.

I also don't agree with the reads of DDS and Junko despite them also being my town reads. Why did you single out Firebringer?

[T-Bone]

Hot take scum reads: Radja, Dingle Dangle, Radical Rat slot

See it’s pretty likely RR converts TBone here.

I think the vote counts support it too.

Bruh did you literally quote a post from 2 months ago and go "look T-Bone has changed his reads"

Let me introduce you to Mr. Sherlock, first name No Shit

[T-Bone]

If I check T-bone tonight:
Sun attunement: T-bone can't be lunar, which means he and RR are very likely either town/town or solar/solar. (Unless RR is lunar who protected town T-bone but that's very unlikely).
Moon attunement: T-bone can't be solar, which means the burn likely happened, unless RR and T-bone are both lunar who made it up (which would out them as scum to the solar team, so unlikely). It also means that RR being scum now hinges on T-bone being scum, since as I said before, RR being lunar who protected town T-bone is very unlikely. This result would mean neither of them can be solar.

I think a check on RR is also good but because of the specific claim of a burn being stopped, a check on T-bone is marginally more informative.

I have a better idea VOTE: T-bone

Yes if you think I'm scum this is the correct move! Thank you! Unlike someone I won't mention who is too afraid to 1v1 me and is waiting for someone else to start the wagon. As soon as Math also puts his vote on me that player will then vote me, and then blame the two of you tomorrow for my town flip and say "well we should have flipped DDS first".

[T-Bone]

Math singling out Firebringer twice for why other players aren't reacting to his push really bothers me though. Ugh. Math being scum would just explain a ton of things and make the solve simpler.

[T-Bone]

If I check T-bone tonight:
Sun attunement: T-bone can't be lunar, which means he and RR are very likely either town/town or solar/solar. (Unless RR is lunar who protected town T-bone but that's very unlikely).
Moon attunement: T-bone can't be solar, which means the burn likely happened, unless RR and T-bone are both lunar who made it up (which would out them as scum to the solar team, so unlikely). It also means that RR being scum now hinges on T-bone being scum, since as I said before, RR being lunar who protected town T-bone is very unlikely. This result would mean neither of them can be solar.

I think a check on RR is also good but because of the specific claim of a burn being stopped, a check on T-bone is marginally more informative.

I have a better idea VOTE: T-bone

the way i see this is that your investigation is going to put us in the same spot tomorrow

t-bone is lunar! cool did he lie or not?
t-bone is solar! cool did he lie or not?

same thing as today

Yeah I agree, I'd sooner have you all flip me than doing this song and dance tomorrow. At least my town flip confirms Prof as scum.

[T-Bone]

Which reads in particular are you disagreeing with, I mean other than Junko’s voting you obviously? I’m assuming Prof but you keep saying they scumslipped but I’m not seeing that? I think they sound similar here to LOST, as does CSF.

I mean literally all Junko's scum reads are my town reads and me.

To answer how Prof scumslipped, Prof claimed that the scumteams picked DDS/Math for the blessings they received at the end of day 1. Since no one had voiced this in thread or considered this in thread before, it looked like to me that he slipped information only the scumteam had. When I asked him if this was information he had, his immediately response was to try and say he never said that. Then he came up with some other excuses but the thing about a scumslip is that the damage is done when you do it.

Prof is different from Lost because Prof in this game has given up when he was pushed to three votes on Night 1, he tried to lie about his scumslip by acting like he never made that post and he has since gotten absolutely unhinged ever since I started calling him scum. He continues to quote me and make nonsensical claims about my posts to justify his fake scum read of me, based on some half brain theory about me being recruited by DDS into the Lunar scum team. He even quotes joke posts as evidence I'm scum. He does this because his read isn't real.

I think your read of him being the same as Lost is based on tone and not based on actions. Prof in Lost did not crumble to pressure, and was not afraid to push his scumreads, to the point where he faked a cop guilty like a fool to get someone eliminated. Now despite me being the only scumread he can't shut up about, he is afraid to 1v1 me because he knows my town flip puts him in a bad spot. In not stop talking about his scumread of me despite not doing anything about it, he talks about how he wants Solar to win rather than town to win. More importantly,

he will not vote me until others do

. I'm writing this post after Junko has placed a vote on me and Math voted me earlier in the day phase. I won't be surprised if when I click post he has finally placed his vote down. I expect after I flip town he will blame me for my bad play, blame Junko and Math for not flipping DDS first, and continue to try and not take responsibility for this top scumread he has. I have never seen Prof so afraid to vote his top scumread, have you?

[T-Bone]

Because fire is insistent on the 1v1.

I am doing due dilligence.

(Work issues will be slow to respond I see the other questions)

He's not even the loudest player looking for a 1v1???

[T-Bone]

I think the check should be on PPF also. If they turn out to be Moon, then that's almost a clear,

barring MMR deciding to claim a guilty on their partner for......... reasons

?

WUT

He's saying if you have lunar attunement you are nearly confirmed town barring some crazy good play by you and MMR.

[T-Bone]

Which reads in particular are you disagreeing with, I mean other than Junko’s voting you obviously? I’m assuming Prof but you keep saying they scumslipped but I’m not seeing that? I think they sound similar here to LOST, as does CSF.

I mean literally all Junko's scum reads are my town reads and me.

To answer how Prof scumslipped, Prof claimed that the scumteams picked DDS/Math for the blessings they received at the end of day 1. Since no one had voiced this in thread or considered this in thread before, it looked like to me that he slipped information only the scumteam had. When I asked him if this was information he had, his immediately response was to try and say he never said that. Then he came up with some other excuses but the thing about a scumslip is that the damage is done when you do it.

Prof is different from Lost because Prof in this game has given up when he was pushed to three votes on Night 1, he tried to lie about his scumslip by acting like he never made that post and he has since gotten absolutely unhinged ever since I started calling him scum. He continues to quote me and make nonsensical claims about my posts to justify his fake scum read of me, based on some half brain theory about me being recruited by DDS into the Lunar scum team. He even quotes joke posts as evidence I'm scum. He does this because his read isn't real.

I think your read of him being the same as Lost is based on tone and not based on actions. Prof in Lost did not crumble to pressure, and was not afraid to push his scumreads, to the point where he faked a cop guilty like a fool to get someone eliminated. Now despite me being the only scumread he can't shut up about, he is afraid to 1v1 me because he knows my town flip puts him in a bad spot. In not stop talking about his scumread of me despite not doing anything about it, he talks about how he wants Solar to win rather than town to win. More importantly,

he will not vote me until others do

. I'm writing this post after Junko has placed a vote on me and Math voted me earlier in the day phase. I won't be surprised if when I click post he has finally placed his vote down. I expect after I flip town he will blame me for my bad play, blame Junko and Math for not flipping DDS first, and continue to try and not take responsibility for this top scumread he has. I have never seen Prof so afraid to vote his top scumread, have you?

No but you’re not voting he either unless I’m missing something?

I know you've been absent much of the day phase but I was sitting on Prof for most of the day phase by myself. I only changed because after arguing ad nauseum and getting steadfast refusals from players like Junko, Math, DDS, Rat, Meuh, you!...players I would need to vote with me in order to flip Prof, I wanted to at least flip someone who isn't a strong townread like DDS. I cannot flip Prof by myself. If you change your read I am all in on that vote though.

[T-Bone]

I see your point that's fair.

[T-Bone]

Nancy if you need anything else from me regarding Prof let me know, but I would rather not reflood the thread with the same arguments over and over that I made a few days ago. It was creating a very unfun thread to play the game in.

[T-Bone]

Thanks for hearing me, Nancy.

[T-Bone]

Only way MMR claim doesn't result in a 1 for 1 in the case that PPF was voted out is that PPF flips solar instead of Town

who disagrees and why?

Do you mean in a world where we flipped PPF instead and PPF was solar?

I think then it would have "proved" the role MMR claimed and we would have left him alone. It's only a 1v1 if we had flipped PPF and they flipped town.

[T-Bone]

Why would MMR go for a 1 for 1 vs town?

That's the question we asked a lot. There's three basic scenarios in my mind. MMR made a mistake in trying to claim something for town cred and botched it, PPF is actually solar, or this was an elaborate play (botched or not) to get PPF deep town cred.

[T-Bone]

VC 4.0.8

Ydrasse (4) Meuh, Cat Scratch Fever, Professotic, Junkochan [E-3]

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow (2) Radical Rat, Mathblade
Meuh (2) Ydrasse, Enchant

Firebringer (1) Dingle Dangle Scarecrow
Professotic (1) T-Bone,
Cat Scratch Fever (1) Firebringer

Not Voting (2): Porkens, Past Present Future ,

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to eliminate
Deadline: 1 day*
*Deadline Frozen for Porkens Replacement

If Ydrasse is the only counterwagon to me then I'll vote her. I'd much rather Firebringer or PPF though. If I wake up tomorrow and the situation is basically the same then I'll vote Ydrasse.

It's a bit old as I moved to Ydrasse as your counterwagon already, and I know at least Junko switched to me.

[T-Bone]

I do find it all annoying, a push against me and nothing significant to respond to, but I don't care for seeking out the reasons for the votes of people who are either only vaguely connected to the game (Ydrasse, Enchant) or tunneled on me (you). It's not my responsibility to make you speak up.

Okay whats ur read on me and why.

I think you're scum here. There's a kind of general weariness about limming you and a lack of momentum towards it that feels unwarraned considering most don't seem to townread you. Makes me feel like that general way you're being treated is because you have some buddies out there who are avoiding your existence to keep living for longer. Especially since multiball makes bussing less good, it feels off. That combined with the push on me that doesn't feel like it was made in good faith (though I've already said enough on that) and just general bad vibes.
I think the whole lack of momentum thing makes you more likely to be solar scum here (they likely have more numbers and are less crumbled considering MMR being gone), though I also think I had some reasons aside from that to believe you had more solar than lunar equity? I think something about the way you treated MMR when I skimmed you when making my readslist not too long after I subbed in.

yeah but see, ur the one and CSF who both say you want me limmed and that there is unwillingness to lim me, yet when DDs votes me ur still not voting me. I find that weird given how everyone says im scum ur noting that its a thing. U think im scum and everyone is unwilling to push me. I really don't see anyone calling me town outside math i guess and tbone here. I guess PPF? Which don't get me started on that i have not even examined their read on me a bit.

So are u sus of Math/Tbone as my allies defending me? Who are u worried about that can't get momentum. I also don't understand if u think im more likely in the solar which u say has the more members that would be more reason to elim me over....Ydrasse? Unless you think both solar.

And im not a person who advocates hunting one group over other but if you think one = bigger threat. I would think you go and push to get rid of the one that could crush the town the easiest first

i felt ydra was pretty town with furtive yesterday.

Let me be clear. I am NOT defending you.

I am sorting you.

Huge difference

I'm defending you. Go go Firebringer I choose you! Use Snarl!

[T-Bone]

It would be wild for MMR's team to not at least know their results, even without daytalk?

[T-Bone]

The part about scum being the informed minority requires them to be informed. Anything is possible I'm not the mod but I can't imagine MMR's team not knowing any results if MMR had them.

[T-Bone]

/inb4 now t-bone scumslipped lmfao

[T-Bone]

I mean you know who is about to come in with a post screaming about it

[T-Bone]

Don't play with my heart Junko

VOTE: professotic

[T-Bone]

It does feel odd to me that T-Bone basically has no reaction to MMR's claim when it happens despite being around and talking about other things.

You'll have to pull up some pages? Though I don't react to everything, I think that's been established. But if you have something specific in mind I can look with you.

[T-Bone]

I think the first time I noticed it was after Rat pointed it out on the next page. I started acknowledging it on page 128 after finishing the conversation we were having. I think putting myself more than half the game ago, I was waiting for MMR to clarify what they were claiming. MMR went a long time after the claim and when they posted again. I definitely turned my attention to the MMR vs PPF situation shortly after. If I look at time stamps, MMR posted at 4:30 in the morning for me. My next post was around 7am, so responding to you from the previous night as I got ready for work, then two pages later I start acknowledging it and it was 4:30 in the afternoon, about the time my workday winds down. So I don't think I ignored it at all and saying I had no reaction is not an accurate characterization of things.

[T-Bone]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.

Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.


Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.

This one, Nancy?

[T-Bone]

Incidentally I also had just read that post and knew where it was trolololol

[T-Bone]

The part about scum being the informed minority requires them to be informed. Anything is possible I'm not the mod but I can't imagine MMR's team not knowing any results if MMR had them.

MMR's flip says MMR receives the info

I'm not seeing the practical importance of this distinction though it should be clear from 3116 that MMR's partners would know their result anyway

Well, that’s another interesting thing because if that claim was real than who are the MMR buddies still pushing us? Because don’t you think it’s weird how - whomever they are - have just completely backed off of us post-flip? Pretty much the only slot that’s really coming after us was Scarf and Junko obvtowned that slot.

Or they just lied and botched a fakeclaim, always a possibility. It's your favorite one I thought!

[T-Bone]

Yes

[T-Bone]

@Dangle, who do you think are MMRs buddies, because I’ve been pouring over their ISO as well as the VCs and I still can’t figure it out but what I do know is that since people are wrongly sr me, I know I’m probably not long for this game, so absolutely nothing would make me happier than limming one of their buddies, so if it’s not you, then please help me to do that. If my fate is to either to ultimately get either miselimed, misvigged or less likely nk’d, I’d feel less bummed about it if I took out scum on my way out.

Tbh you're unlikely to be Lunar imo so if you want to be townread, you should be hunting for Solar. That's the primary reason I don't townread you - I don't see you pushing that much, and your primary push lately has been DDS, who can't be Solar

Assuming PPF is Town, why would they care which scum they're pushing? Prioritizing appearances over taking whatever scum you can find is Not what I would consider to be a Town mindset.

+1

Yes, I just want to really get a scum today, I don’t care which one.

I just wanna say I also strongly feel this is correct from a town perspective. The handwringing over which scum team to flip next is misguided at best and helpful to scum at worst. Flipping scum is flipping scum. We can't hold back on a slot we think is a likely scumflip just because they are the wrong scum team (or we're not sure which scumteam)

[T-Bone]

There's been plenty of resistance to Ydrasse just like there has been resistance to a wagon in every single player. The wagon and then dissolution of it is not specific to them. We're incapable of getting anyone over 4 votes it seems.

[T-Bone]

I mean I'm voting for Prof right now. For me, Ydrasse exists in the space of players I don't have a strong town read on and they exist as a slot that could be on either scumteam. I only briefly voted for Ydrasse when I was banging my head against the Prof wall the first time and was looking for a compromise that wasn't one of my strong town reads.

[T-Bone]

You kinda illustrated the problem a few posts ago when you said "I think compromised end up on town" and we're at a point where very few players have been willing to compromise. That's why I think we're in the spot we're in.

I don't completely agree with that stance. While I am not willing to compromise on a town read I am okay with compromising on a less than ideal scum read because I think there is value in un-stalling the game.

But like who do you think is scum and why aren't you voting for them? And if you're having a hard time deciding who is scum, why aren't you looking to a top town read or two to see what they are doing? I know you voted DDS at some point, but other than you and Titus disagreeing on your Prof read I don't know who you think is scum except maybe DDS and your voting this day phase reflects that.

I appreciate that you want to defend some slots you think are town, but it would be helpful overall for you to start thinking about who you would vote for top scumread or not. You're like one of three slots who I have no idea who you would like to flip today other than not you.

[T-Bone]

Dawn 1 Final VC

MMR (8) Radical Rat, Past Present Future, Mathblade, furtiveglance, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, Ydrasse , Firebringer, Unwnd, [Hammer]

Past Present Future (4) Scarfmanship, MMR, Toogeloo, Enchant,

Unwnd (2) Mastina, Yume

Not Voting (1) T-bone,

Deadline: 1 day*
With 15 alive it took 8 to eliminate.
Deadline was frozen for replacements.

It’s still my theory that at least one of the slots that jumped from us to MMR is probably scum, so maybe Dangle could be scum here? I can’t tell with Ydrasse but the way MMR over the top white knighted STD seems odd if they’re buddies and the arguing with FA doesn’t look partnery, so it has to amongst those three, I think.

Sorry, which three? DDS, and two others?

Ydrasse and Fire. They were all at the end of MMR wagon, so I think it’s likely at least one vote had to be a bus.

I went back looking to see if you had given a readslist after Math had asked everyone for one in case I had missed it but I couldn't find it...But when we talked about reads last time and I asked who you thought could be bussing and you said Ydrasse was in your PoE. What changed between Wednesday and today?

[T-Bone]

That's a pretty soft affirmation of my slot though you have to admit. Not a strong stance at all.

[T-Bone]

I have a kill list. It's Maid Cafe, T-Bone, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow, Enchant mostly.

Why is Maid Cafe and T-Bone on the kill list?
I get the others but those two don't exactly seem that scummy based off what I've read.
-Rubella

Considering the efforts MMR made to not appear they needed to not look like they knew Dangle lim would vanilaize them, I’d say this spews both Maid and T-Bone unlikely Lunars.

More importantly....did MMR know about the blessing prior to it being revealed? This is not information we had as town as far as I'm aware. What?

[T-Bone]

No you're right. I completely overlooked that.

[T-Bone]

I might need to rethink my assumption about Prof a bit. They knew as in the mod told them because they were picked pregame or they knew because they picked those slots themselves?

[T-Bone]

You didn't even seem to believe the scumslip anyway? It's basically just me.

[T-Bone]

And like before you go jumping off I think Prof's refusal to go after his number 1 scumread is still pretty damning in of itself if he's scum.

[T-Bone]

That was at Junko.

I also gave Prof a chance to explain himself before I jumped into the deep end. He didn't adequately in my opinion because his first reaction was to pretend he didn't make the post. At that point I committed.

[T-Bone]

But I don't want to rehash those posts I just made 7124 to be transparent about my thoughts.

[T-Bone]

You will need to link or quote me on that. Well I looked at some Ydra games yesterday and her saying she wanted to die or something really confused me as to why she’d be doing that as town but if she really wanted to die, she wouldn’t be saying she’s a miselim and that wolves are voting her and you say there’s been resistance to her wagon but whom? I think it would have been extremely easy for Ydra to go over today, you disagree?

I mean if it didn't happen when Prof and I were both voting for Ydrasse I think that's evidence that it isn't extremely easy.

[T-Bone]

That was at Junko.

I also gave Prof a chance to explain himself before I jumped into the deep end. He didn't adequately in my opinion because his first reaction was to pretend he didn't make the post. At that point I committed.

Do 6084 and 6085 not adequately explain?

I was commenting on Math saying I went at Prof fast when he said I would jump on him for going after a perceived scumslip. To contrast the speed I think I went vs the hypothetical speed Math would.go and I would jump on him.

[T-Bone]

Meant to post in your scum pt amirite

[T-Bone]

Though maybe part of the reason that every wagon is stalling is that we (or at least i) don't want to end the day with an empty Porkens slot, since i don't want to sit through another 5 day nightphase waiting for a replacement again

Thoughts on flipping that slot then?

[T-Bone]

Let's just do it then, yeah? Junko, Nancy, Math?

[T-Bone]

Like fine blame me if the Porkens slot ends up being town and we learn later we correctly wagoned scum... I just also want this phase to end. Let's get a flip and some fresh night actions to work with tomorrow.

VOTE: Porkens

[T-Bone]

Let's just do it then, yeah? Junko, Nancy, Math?

If it doesn’t get replaced soon I’d consider it.

It's been a week already how much longer is soon?

[T-Bone]

Too fast to agree on porkens huh?

It's a quality of life flip that might also flip scum. It's not a bad bargain.

[T-Bone]

The sudden resistance to a quality of life move is weird. I thought I was being overbearing in pushing it but yikes

[T-Bone]

It's not like we're flipping an innocent child, we're flipping a slot that could be scum. It's a slot that has never been active at any point of the game, why can't it be scum?

[T-Bone]

Because the game is going on longer and longer without consensus. This means we don’t have a good townblock despite my efforts to build it. Players not listened too are more likely to go fuck it unless they have a reason not to.

You've done nothing of the sort. You've tried to active lurk because you have a hero shot you want to use. When you had the shot to use it on a consensus last time you decidedly did not use it on one of the slots that had huge questions around them. So you can stop this nonsense. You have 400 posts more than the next active player and all you have to show for it was using your daykill on a player very people wanted you to. This game is dragging as it is. You want to build that town block? Stop being an obstruction.

[T-Bone]

Toog radiated town energy and has done nothing scum indicative afaik

I can vote there so we can make a lim happen, it doesn't seem awful.
Just know that I'll be wagging my finger and shaking my head the whole time...

Spoiler:

Wag your finger and help us anyway.

[T-Bone]

That's how I feel tbh

[T-Bone]

It's been basically three months for that slot, how much longer do you want to wait? It's never been occupied by a player. Like we're all arguing with each other, sniping one another and getting nothing done. I dare you to defend this as a valuable game state for town.

[T-Bone]

@Cat Scratch Fever
I'm currently 45W/10L with Mausehold, meowscarada, indeedee,Gholdengo, Hydreigon and Armarouge

sometimes I swap indeedee for whimsicott

I'm evil I know

maushold about to get banned though, population bomb is OP

[T-Bone]

You voted me and basically never mentioned it again I would hardly call that a push.

[T-Bone]

We can do this tomorrow I still can't get over you typing and posting that you are trying to build a town block and it's not going to lead to a productive discussion.

[T-Bone]

Well, I think it's highly possible Lunar did try to kill professotic, since they'd claimed to be a crazy powerful PR, and then professotic killing themselves overlapped with that.

Then we know Solar did at least two things, one of which was burning T-Bone, which I prevented. If the arsonist theory is correct, that checks out. If it isn't, then I don't know

And then I don't know what happened (or didn't happen) last night, but I think it's logical to assume there's a Night protective since I exist for Noon.

It's MY role that gave you that message T-Bone

. It's in my original claim, that I already quoted and bolded when this came up the first time.

I DO think DDS's claim is bullshit, but it's not because of a conflict with the message I send and the message they send.

Rat is confirmed scum. They claimed the result I got from Porken's role.

VOTE: Radical Rat

[T-Bone]

We also got really helpful flips. There are two players that I need to obviously move. Not sure if I want Prof above the town line of no return yet, but swinging for Porkens, especially as Rat resisted is huge for me. DDS is basically confirmed town to me based on Math's flip. I haven't move anyone else besides Rat/Prof/DDS at the moment, but I will do some more reading to decide.

Spoiler: Reads 4.0

DDS
FB
Enchant
Junko
-Town Line of No Return-
Prof
CSF/Meuh
Ydrasse
PPF
Rat

Spoiler: Reads 3.1

Rat
FB
Enchant
DDS/Math
Junko
-Town Line of No Return-
CSF/Meuh
Ydrasse
PPF
Toog
Prof

[T-Bone]

We can also slow play Rat's flip a bit, but they are confirmed, unfortunately for them. Rat also had to fight the Porkens flip like they did at the end of last phase knowing that Proken's flip immediately implicates them.

[T-Bone]

Well, I think it's highly possible Lunar did try to kill professotic, since they'd claimed to be a crazy powerful PR, and then professotic killing themselves overlapped with that.

Then we know Solar did at least two things, one of which was burning T-Bone, which I prevented. If the arsonist theory is correct, that checks out. If it isn't, then I don't know

And then I don't know what happened (or didn't happen) last night, but I think it's logical to assume there's a Night protective since I exist for Noon.

It's MY role that gave you that message T-Bone

. It's in my original claim, that I already quoted and bolded when this came up the first time.

I DO think DDS's claim is bullshit, but it's not because of a conflict with the message I send and the message they send.

Rat is confirmed scum. They claimed the result I got from Porken's role.

VOTE: Radical Rat

haha, yeah exactly I laughed about this a strong 15 minutes or so

There was a little fist pumping but also sadness at being pocketed RIP me

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Porkens
I guess lets end the suffering. Probably most likely flips scum.
Hope im wrong.

Is this a slip? UGH Is FB gonna break my heart too???

[T-Bone]

We can also slow play Rat's flip a bit, but they are confirmed, unfortunately for them. Rat also had to fight the Porkens flip like they did at the end of last phase knowing that Proken's flip immediately implicates them.

exactly, it also made you look better, you can still be lunar I guess(?) but I was at one moment really thining you guys were up to something

I have some questions tho, why do we have a dead body now? what happened the other nights?

I mean I look great basically all the time.

I think at least Solar no killed once so Rat could claim protection on me.

Overall, I have a dumb theory, only because I've seen it done enough times as player and mod. But also I've seen enough scumteams no-kill as part of their strategy to get mislims during the day. Less flips, less association, more paranoia. Perhaps to add to paranoia about a recruiting mechanic??

[T-Bone]

I agree Radical Rat should be the lim today.

The fake burn means Meuh is all but confirmed as not Solar to me, since I have a role-related result suggesting that Solar tried to target her during Noon 1.

I want to wait for PPF and Meuh to check in and see if they will confirm DDS' role.

Can you restate what happened?

[T-Bone]

Mathblade has died. Their role was

Spoiler:

Town Novice Dusk Knight

Spoiler: Role PM

You are a

Town Novice Dusk Knight

Once per day, during the dusk phase, besides dusk 1, you may post

KILL: PLAYER

. If you do, you will immediately kill that player.
If you kill a player that is the same faction of another player you have killed, you will also die. This death cannot be prevented by any means.

You win when at least one player is alive, and all living players are aligned with the

town.

Dusk 3 Begins!

Also Math, I'm gonna be honest chief Idk how the f this indicates that there's conversions in the game bu, hope you can answer me post game

He also claimed if he died there would be negative consequences so that was probably just a lie?

I'll be honest though, the more I see Role PMs the worse "attunement" looks as a mechanic.

[T-Bone]

That happened the same phase Porkens targeted me, yeah?

[T-Bone]

I want to point out that this night and day names are still confusing as f to me

SAME

[T-Bone]

I appreciate you, Rat

[T-Bone]

We just need to wait for someone to confirm they received the message now!

[T-Bone]

We meant at this day start.

[T-Bone]

We meant at this day start.

I mean, I targeted Meuh, since she's a claimed investigative known to be targeting a suspicious slot, but there wouldn't be a message for her to have received since I was the one who got burned.

Your claim breaks down a bit since you getting notified of being burned requires solar to have a second copy of Porkens' role, since you protected meuh.

[T-Bone]

Can someone summarize the implication of PPF receiving a message meuh targeted them? I can't quite remember what that means for meuh's claim, DDS' claim, or CSF's.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, when you received a message saying you were burned, was it clear that your message wasn't from the mod?

If this breaks site rules, just ignore ig.

It was exactly how it was written in Porkens'role flip.

[T-Bone]

They claimed beloved princess. Allegedly if they die we skip a talking phase basically.

[T-Bone]

so

Meuh checked PPF atunment
DDS illuminated PPF so they can verify Meuh's target
PPF claims being targeted by Meuh

correct?

Which also precludes a combination of them being scum together, as I don't think we are working against groups larger than three. We only have one unknown solar left in that case. Unless I'm misunderstanding it would take the three of them working together to fake the interaction, so we at least know DDS' role works exactly as claimed.

[T-Bone]

Porkens was eliminated. Their role was

Spoiler:

Solar Hypnotist

Spoiler: Role PM

You are a

Solar Hypnotist

During the noon phase, you may target a player and give them one of the following messages at the end of the noon phase. These messages have no other effect.
"You have been burned!"
"Someone attempted to burn you, but it failed!"
"Your burn has been healed."
REDACTED

You win when your faction makes up half of the living players, and no members of the Lunar Cult are alive.

Noon 2 begins! Send me anything you might do!

Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-11 23:41:37)

I may not know much about Mech but the very fact that Porkens’ role exists, implies Solar is likely to have a burn mechanic no?

No. This role was designed to make us think they had an arsonist, and so that the person with this role could toss out fake messages. There are no burns or a burn mechanic.

[T-Bone]

It's fine y'all don't need to go in circles with PPF. If the burn mechanic is real then it is just bold game design by Meg and we can give it two thumbs up post game. I don't think it's a possibility we need to spend much time on though since we have a bunch of evidence that suggests different. We can cross that bridge if Rat flips town, but I sincerely doubt it.

[T-Bone]

Yo Rat is trying to play to their win condition, please give them grace.