Micro 1068 | Normal Designer Mafia | Postgame

[biancospino]

Hi everyone I'm choosing to rvs because I'm not on my phone and I like to type square brackets.
VOTE: bugsparay

[biancospino]

@Drew, the question is not for me, but this game is Normal. By Normal guidelines, there must exist at least one VT.

Now, about revealing picks, here's the thing, it's true that Mafia can have PRs, but crucially they know which PRs the Mafia has (and presumably Townies are unlikely to lie, so the Mafia would mostly get truthful information, and can just lie in response). So Mafia can get a much better use of the information. Most importantly, I'd rather the Mafia not know which investigatives we might have, lest they could play around the menace or in any case know what to expect.

What I do see as possibly having merit is revealing picks that are

truly

Mafia only, i.e. Unstoppables / Traitors / Goons. After all, those we can be certain that are not Town, and if any of those picks is actually in the game Mafia already knows; and we could possibly benefit from knowing to expect a possible Ninja Mafioso or something.

Also, @Enchant, yes/no, do you believe it would benefit town if everyone outed

all

their PR picks?

[biancospino]

Ok, but if that's the case, I don't get why then you specifically want to reveal PR picks as opposed to just every picks. Surely if we were to do this and someone e.g. revealed only two things, then the other one is either VT or Goon and I don't see why it would be in any way beneficial to not distinguish.

And I do see the harm. Say someone picked e.g. a simple Follower and scum has a Goon, now scum know they shouldn't send the Goon to do the kill. Or maybe someone picked a disloyal FV and now Mafia knows to never declare fruit, just in case. I'm sure it's not hard to come out with countless examples. And in general I don't see why we should broadcast to the mafia what kind of roles may exist, I don't see the advantage for town and it removes the surprise effect of pretty much anything.

[biancospino]

We applied picks of PRs. Out of all these picks, RH made setup. This setup was REVIEWED for balance.

I mean, that's false, we applied for

roles

, not necessarily PRs. VT is a role.

Description: Players pick either a maximum of three Normal roles or Normal roles with modifiers that they want in the setup but the prescence of such roles will not be guaranteed. Preferably, the picks are submitted during signups so the setup can be reviewed after it.

Anyway, then why did you out your JOAT(Neighborizers) then? It's not a scummy role (though in fairness I don't think any harm was done with revealing that specific pick, but still)

[biancospino]

Yes, as long as Mafia actually mean Mafia only (I don't have any btw). Town can well have scummy roles.

[biancospino]

VT is a not Role, VT is "Vanilla Town Alignment". For example, Serial Killer and Mafia Goon are ALSO not Roles.

I'm pretty sure they are, though it can't hurt to get confirmation I suppose.

@mod, would "Vanilla Townie" or "Goon" have been valid picks during signup?

In any case, I also do believe that you don't believe they are, so you did satisfy the doubt I had.

[biancospino]

VOTE: Not Known
I am sure they know.

I actually just figured this joke out. Now I feel real dumb.

And Furtive casually making sure the wifom is strong, that certainly is a thing.

Mhm, I'm not sure I see it. I don't read any of early furtive's posts as invoking wifom, but I guess you probably had one or two specific posts in mind?

Spoiler: Enchant/Aureal

Do you really think I'm supposed to be no more suspicious of you and your suggestion without explanation than I was of Drew? Particularly given how its form shifted, and you're being inconsistent about what sort of picks you had?

Explain this

You didn't give any reasoning why you think sharing info will help town, you just gave your opinion. What scenarios do you envision possibly coming about because of shared info?

You first suggested sharing"PR" picks, implying town roles.

No, it's something you put in my mouth to make your mudthrowing better. When i said to share PR picks, i meant PR picks.
PR = Power Role
Mafia can have power roles.


So anyway, setup knowledge is universal. After people start dropping, they obviously can't share it, so why we don't now.

That is an incredibly week counter argument. I will go out on a limb and say that the picks people sent in for town were PR(maybe someone picked a vanilla town).

And the backtracking on top of that.

This is a thing that Aureal also did, and it does sit a bit uneasy with me, I'm not convinced that it's fair to say that Enchant was backtracking. They said that neither of their picks were Mafia, and then revealed a set of pick descriptions that were not of Mafia picks. Aureal did at some point imply that this there was a contradiction there because some of those picks

could

be assigned to Mafia, but... I don't see it?
I also don't see what sort of backtracting could Drew possibly have seen here exactly? I would like clarifications, I'm open to admit having misunderstood someone along the way.

Spoiler: furtive/Drew

I don't have a reason to townread Enchant but it's widely accepted that early wagons are scummy

While I can agree with this(re: early wagons), you shouldn't discount something just because of that. Maybe you aren't town reading them, but this isn't a reason to not scum read them.

And again with the dramatics, one of your early posts(the wiki thing) was the first thing in this game that really jumped out to me as odd. I chased that lead and your reaction to some light pressure has been telling, at least to me.

It's also been telling to me, as in it told me that your push is embarrassingly terrible.

Ok, so how about you do something instead of just creating noise?

So many posts, no real substance.

High horse much, this whole convo is probably by far the greatest noise producer in this thread, and is actually approaching just devolving to name calling. I see the potential of it being TvT, but in all cases it's becoming a bit unwieldy.

When someone other than Drew posts, I'll post

Well, mission failed successfully.

More to the merit though, the wiki thing is not really anything. Look, I did found it a bit out of place myself, given that I don't like the concept of metaing players and whatnot, but if someone is the sort of player who likes to rely on meta I also don't see anything wrong with just asking people to share past games, and I rekon that pointing to one's wiki is a convenient way to do that. If that's all what the fuss is about, then I think that's pretty weak. What is it about furtive's reaction that irks you exactly?

@Drew, E stands for "Eliminate" or "Elimination". Or Execute if you like that flavor better

FoS: Drew

[biancospino]

@furtive, can you sell me on Aureal? It's strictly because of the convo with Enchant?

[biancospino]

Mhm. The list was indeed unprompted and quite arbitrary. Now, 156 she responds to a comment you did on NK, about how Enchant was a bad vote, and 160 she asks about opinion on Enchant's voters out of the blue while the rest of the post is about something else -- I am catching that you believe Auriel came out as being exceedingly preoccupied with the optics of her vote?

[biancospino]

VOTE: Aureal

[biancospino]

I know bianco is on V/LA, maybe they come back soon

yes, yes, i'm here, at half capacity

I don't really want to no lim today

I feel like we could hit Mafia if we mass claim. Just a feeling

Feelings aside, i'm not convinced; there can't be possibly many town pr left, realistically idk what would a massclaim realistically do other than outing the Vigilante and

maybe

one other pr (this game is rated complex indeed, but any more than that would just be extravagant).

If we vote no one I'll just die and I think you guys will lose, no offence.
I'd rather mass claim and lead a correct vote today

this also piqued my interest, surely you will also lose, not only "we guys", right?

[biancospino]

Unless someone cc's, I'll have furtive down as conftown.

furtive
Enchant
Menalque; bugspray(??)
NK15
(bugspray in particular didn't give us much to work with. Their D1 vote has been parked on furtive for reasonings flimsy enough that may well be just a RVS joke (33), and their only other notable interaction was with Enchant (40 and followings) which I'm not sure is AI)

furtive, are you one-shot?

[biancospino]

Ok, here's the problem, until someone other than furtive and Enchant is going to post then frankly I'm not really incentive to post myself much; I have you both as likely town, so I would be mostly interested in what the others would have to say. I've seen NK15 just popped out, have you anything you want to say, maybe some comment on how yesterday turned out or something?

That said, while we've nothing else to talk about, maybe can you help try to sort Menalque out? He did post releatively a lot, though much of his significant D1 posts were there to justify his obvtown read of Enchant to Enchant, and later to push Enchant to drop the hammer, which may be pocket-y. I also really wish he could be here to detail his suspicion of who's mafia, now that who the Vig kill was has been confirmed as he wished, so to focus the discussion on something.

[biancospino]

Idk. Maybe not. A lot to think about.

VOTE: Not Known 15

Let's see if Mafia hammer this

I'll sheep this. VOTE: Not Known 15, E-1
I've a decent feeling that it's right, however @Enchant please don't take this hammer just now, I really want to see what Menalque has to say before the night falls.

[biancospino]

F3, cool. Clearly there is no point in hiding anything anymore, so we probably want a massclaim here; however I have a strong reason to make the following statement:

The order in which we massclaim is relevant, and in particular it would be anti-town for me to full claim before Alianna does.

Note that, as a result of nights actions, I have partial, but loud and clear, knowledge of Alianna's role (and btw, if it is what I think it is, then it's actually my crappiest pick, sorry Alianna), however that's

not

the reason I'm stating such.

[biancospino]

Yes, this was indeed one of my picks. Sorry about that.

She visited me this night.

Now, that's not actually what I needed you to claim. See, that you are loud, and visited me, is not actually the only thing I know about you. Isn't there any unusual happenstance you wish to mention?

[biancospino]

my picks were loud visitor, multitasking mailman mailman, two-shots commuter.

I am going to go eat something, there should be some old-ish applepie in the fridge I need to consume before it goes bad.
@Alianna, when I'm back in ten minutes or so, I hope to see you claiming what you need to, and I'm full claiming myself

[biancospino]

Let's cut the serpent's head.

It appears we gifted each other a role, curios.
I vended to Drew on N1, to check my top scumread, but we all know how that played out.
I vended to you this night. And I think we can safely conclude my fruit did not reach you.

So I know that you either received fruit, or you are scum. Unless Enchant is a scum rolestopper/roleblocker, but I want to believe that to be less probable.

@Enchant, it's on you. @Alianna, I found you.

VOTE: Alianna

[biancospino]

BTW, I did crumb FV on one occasion D2. Go look at post 302, you'll notice that's the only post in which I consistently miscapitalized words, and the only uppercases are, well you guessed

[biancospino]

Enchant, if you've got questions for me, I'll be on for at least a couple more hours.

Same.

[biancospino]

Why would you even get that role though? Scum loyal FV can't vend to anyone except their partner.

I agree. I'm not scum loyal FV.

[biancospino]

I targeted someone I tought could possibly be scum, same as I did N1. Now, Menalque was my top read, however I feared the the Vigilante may come to the same conclusion and shoot there, so

[biancospino]

It was pretty well set-up for a fakeclaim though.

I should have been

incredibly

lucky if it was a fakeclaim don't you think? I had to set up a loyal FV claim, start the day extremely strong with it, even going as far as making up a little blurb about an

apple

pie, and then turns out I luckied out so much that bugspray's only pick did indeed fit perfectly the specific fakeclaim which I planned well before possibly knowing bugspray's pick? Does this looks like a credible story to you?

[biancospino]

Ah who i am kidding. I just tossed dice. If i didn't, i check you. AND IT WOULD MAKE MY JOB SO MUCH EASIER I CAN'T.

That's to bad
This would be so much smoother if you did

[biancospino]

G'night, if anyone need to ask me anything it'll have to wait at least 7 hours

[biancospino]

...
I had no faith that that actually could work frankly.

I did actually truly vend to Alianna for what it's worth. I actually was decently sure, and based my plan on it, that you were a RoleWatcher and she was a Jailkeeper, I was pretty wrong on pretty much everything. I feel like scum won just because I got really lucky and got given bugspray's pick

[biancospino]

You’ve foiled my evil plans!

If you are mafia i feel bad for you.

Town didn't deserve this win. 1-Shot Unstoppable+Visitor?
VS
Loyal Fruit WhateverVendor, Announcing Lazy Cop, Weak Vigilante, Universal Backup, Neighborizer (WHICH ALLOWS TO SHARE RESULTS WITHOUT ENDANGERING REAL PRS).


How this even passes review i fucking can't.

I mean, we won and all, but mostly out of random chance. Like, we still had exactly nothing against a gated cop, a weak vigilantd, a neighborizer and a UB. Like, imagine if the Vigilante killed mafia N1, game could end N2 and Mafia could do jack shit to avoid it

[biancospino]

I don't think it was incompetence there. Just things happened in the only exact furtuituous ways that would work for us

[biancospino]

Eh, I did factor in the fact that RH is, from what I've seen, townsided in deciding to even try to claim

[biancospino]

No redactions from me