HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[ActionDan]

VOTE: BBT

[ActionDan]

this one

Is town

[ActionDan]

YO DAN

Yo!

It's nice to virtually see you again!

(Please be town )

(You too Mala! I'm still LI strong)

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Wayword

[ActionDan]

Early wagons are fun

If they are why did you not put a vote down earlier

[ActionDan]

Read up.

VOTE: StD

First, this isn't a reaction test if he's willing to use associatives to divine a read on Elements 137. So let's make this simple: It's a bad vote against someone likely town. If there was "something to see" show us.

Town reads on RR who has essentially spent his time chastising someone in role play mode for voting a no Elim do not make sense to me.

Bella, what makes RR's posting a different caliber to eria's?

Flea's 111 sucked.

I think wayward has done alright extricating himself. I'll choose to believe his posts at face value.

Elements' posting leaves a lot to be desired but I'm not getting particularly strong scum feelings from them either.

[ActionDan]

Then again 164 is... not pleasant to read

[ActionDan]

No it's not the read itself it's that your post despite its short length is fluffed up, vague in places (what "mumbling things"?), and what's the point of the embellishment of the last line about KJ?

[ActionDan]

I hate using associatives preflip. No one has ever amazed me and no one ever will.

I will take an honest slog through the meta. Reading those other games. Determining if existence is pointless. The usual

[ActionDan]

I haven't gotten to brass tacks yet with kj vs. Everyone, but I just wanted to say that Mala looks to be clearly town now

[ActionDan]

At this point you guys are bloating the thread. Please settle down or talk about other people if you must. I'm sure there's plenty of material we can use to read you. The more you post the less we will have the drive to do so; please concede the last word.

[ActionDan]

A tiny bit, been working; should have no more obligations tonight so I can spend quality time reading. To do this properly you have to read a lot.

[ActionDan]

I've read up, but haven't given my full efforts to players outside of the range of StD, Elements, KJ and Flea.

Firstly, I am becoming much more convinced StD is scum.

I believe the initial vote against KJ to be weak, especially when the reasons for the push were revealed in post 187. Elements posting chess pics in the thread is neither town indicative nor in any way helpful to town so at the least someone touching on it should not be wholly unexpected. And it is not true a priori that such questions would garner no value; even innocuous questions can merit unexpected AI responses. I can nitpick at the other two about a wary townread and Nancy's post being flat (it is content none the less) but they are at least fathomable.

If the justification of the way the vote was made was so that there was engagement between StD and people who were of the same mind and/or people voting StD that never happened. I think the goal of the vote was presentation over substance.

I absolutely understand the frustration with Frogster's postings. This goes to all of StD, Elements, and Flea. They are a reactionary inflammatory player. Their associative reads are hyperbolic, and yes the meta postings do not translate in parallel with this game except only maybe vaguely in the case of post 150 in which the language is similar, i.e "If I were scum I wouldn't do *Thing A*" vs. "If I were scum I wouldn't do *Thing B*, but A and B are as apples to oranges. While I get it, there are times when I feel posts of StD's become performative, post 231 as HPE specifically points out and a series of posts culminating in post 351 when speaking to Nancy are good examples.

More concerning is the vote on HPE in 325. That is analysis. Whether it's good analysis (Obviously I think the part about StD specifically tends to strike true) you can debate. The questions asked about it can be asked without the addition of a vote because I simply don't believe StD thinks:

I think this has the best chance of hitting scum.

VOTE: HPE

This is ongoing at the moment and I will continue to monitor.

---

My Read on Flea is that fae have a decent chance at being scum. I don't wish to entirely reiterate their correspondence with Nancy as clearly its a sore spot for both of them and admittedly I did not read specific meta, but understand in a general sense they have a long history.

111 is a scummy post. Voting a claimed miller is not RVS, and placing it there neuters its power. I happen to be biased about "town cores" since I view the practice of actively trying to force these flawed, moreover, to do so at the expense of scumhunting normally very distasteful. Let us take this post as is so we can establish this is Flea's priority and keep it in mind.

Fulfilling this objective is immediately sought in post 191. But I question (among other things) this bit:

149 be spicy from the Joker, wanna see how this progresses given I can't work out what the reads are coming from this... o.O Definitely interesting though :3

Which reminds me @Joker still wanna know what was scummy about that post, I ain't having your slot cruise by on my ability to read Nancy.

Why? Why bother at all? the priority is to read Nancy is it not? To determine the alignment of the Hydra by exploiting the meta (and I say meta here because if you think you can read a slot historically well and accurately it is by your knowledge of their meta) of one of the heads. Flea later will vote the slot because of Frog in post 232 and its about here where the slot is irrevocably damaged for Flea.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. And I feel that's what Flea has done. There should be enough material to form a meta read on Nancy, I do think she has had content to analyze and enough posts to form an emotive read if that's how you want to get there. I myself am mostly reading the slot through Nancy's postings now and think (contrary to HPE) that 265 and 267 were particularly towny.

I can see this, and I'm finding it hard to believe Flea can't because Frog, no matter how distracting he is, prevents them from doing so.

---

Elements, briefly, I think is town on a reread. There was nothing towny in the ISO prior to 118, but from here I like both the interactions with StD and KJ. The only reservation I have is that she hasn't formed any independent scumreads or delved into outside players aside from Std/KJ.

---

KJ as previously mentioned continues to be town. I first got that impression from Frog's very early posts and Nancy has only solidified that for me later. I do have a blind spot and that is I don't know the metas of Nancy and Frog when they are scum.

---

I have some preliminary thoughts on some others in this game but I want to reread to flesh out my thoughts.

[ActionDan]

I have been abandoned cries

Mala is right though this is Andres scum meta. I do happen to like gimli's content posts since it's almost about where I was page 4. We'll see if that holds when he gets to page 20

[ActionDan]

I hope to post tonight after work.

[ActionDan]

Particularly I don't think STD comes up with that HPE scumread + vote

This though. Discarding meta, and other details like say what we define "analysis" to be, there just won't be an argument that'll absolve StD of this.

[ActionDan]

Flea, you are simultaneously suspecting people who are 'wilfully misinterpreting fenrir' and pushing HPE with your misinterpretation of HPE's post.

I did see that but in what I've read since page 20 or abouts I have been liking fleas responses to both me and you.

And @flea, I think from now on I'll judge you by interactions with all other non KJ players.

I still think StD is scum and I'm not sure why people are jumping ship to passenger or worse.... Gimli

[ActionDan]

Titus' votes and iso leave much to be desired

[ActionDan]

Tbf two of my Poe are voting Std.

No one's vote on hpe seems well explained tbf.

I assume you at this point have some sort of town pool and a PoE pool.

Does that mean you do not have a scumread proper? No one below the PoE category?

[ActionDan]

As far as RR is concerned I didn't like 156 but thought the rest was OK. Rereading him is annoying

[ActionDan]

Std is 'scummy' for reasons around tone and 'theatre'.

Did you not share this sentiment? As far as I can tell you thought he was scummy for tone without elaboration.

I also do not know who on the wagon thinks that as a main argument for the scumread, though I haven't been paying as much attention to wayward who last I remember was sleeping KJ.

Pedit enchant already on wagon right

[ActionDan]

@wayward, passenger/std are the main wagons today barring a flashwagon on Elements. Can you remind us why you find both suspicious. Do you have a preference?

[ActionDan]

What posts of StD's did you find towny?

[ActionDan]

I have been applying much less BoP to elements than others this game. Gimli, I don't think I've ever played with elements. As town are hey on a whole other level than this game?

[ActionDan]

Assuming this is aimed at me

Was at Bella but your opinion is appreciated. I disagree with some important parts of it but will expand when I get home from work.

[ActionDan]

Holy moly 10 pages of activity. I have a train ride to read I guess.

[ActionDan]

Man I love losing posts. I'll consolidate.

What posts of StD's did you find towny?

Assuming this is aimed at me, I won't actually pull specific posts because why the fuck would I when i don't operate on that unless I'm locked on as I read surprisingly over multiple posts and frankly I'm not in the mood to quote wall either.

Overall, his posts have felt and read as genuine, to me his tone is open and often indignant, he's made several attempts to move past the miscommunications and I can honestly understand his perspective here. I feel as scum he would've either gone hard on counter attacks or gone quiet.

The "attacks" on him are absolute bilge water so far as I'm concerned.

Yes many of his posts do read genuine. He is exasperated, he is exhausted, he does have the major pain in the ass and bulwark that is KJ to deal with. That much is true but its not exclusively a town trait. As is an indignant tone or being open. You have to if you want to survive as scum. Being consistently conciliatory and self-effacing makes you a pushover and decreases your chances for survival. Moving past miscommunications should win no one favors, nor do I see that from StD's postings. Take 508 - 512 as an example, or better, the one you were clearly referring to 607 - 626. It takes half a page to state the obvious once its played out while there were better ways to handle that while driving home the supposedly important point that Gimli was acting in character to a scum meta.

Do you not think it a problem that StD hasn't "gone hard on counter attacks"? The reason you think that is that there's hardly any weight to his criticisms of his detractors in 575. I know I didn't feel anything from the paltry and unexacting blurb about me, and the others are of the same quality.

I'm not putting too much effort into digesting Eira's or KJ's reasons for voting StD while they are my wagonmates, much less concerned with them than say, Titus's or Enchant's vote. I have however have a good grasp of why HPE voted StD and I am happy to bat for that if need be.

---

I do not have a red polaroid equipped when reading through StD's postings. There are plenty that are not scummy, there are plenty that I could easily see coming from town, for example 762 pushing for engagement with HPE's wagoneers or 809 which is the kind of flipout I'd have expected earlier (ofc I think it's undercut by the very next post but ymmv).

But he's likely scum. There are certain absolutes. One for his past votes on KJ and HPE were bad. Particularly the scumread of HPE. It's not hard to see they are town, and I think StD is competent enough to be able to see that too.

Another thing that caught my eye was post 650. Eira imo did not respond to this properly but in StD's 575 this quote appears:

Eiralox is probably green but i'm still salty that they mischaracterized my...side's, i guess...argument to "wow you have a lot of scumreads" it doesn't look like they actually tried to understand what i was putting out so it's disappointing. other than that i've felt good vibewise about the slot.

I do not think town would have the same rote antagonistic response to 644; despite its... imaginative argumentation... town would not write it off completely as wasted breath.

I also dislike the self-vote pushing to E-2. It wasn't hammerable.

---

I can't say I'd be incredibly unhappy if Passenger is flipped instead; I think its rather self evident why (and no its not because he didn't change his vote off HPE after posting a reads list), but this opportunity to elim StD probably won't come again.

I might be around again in the hour before deadline but I think you guys can manage an Elim.

[ActionDan]

Man I love losing posts. I'll consolidate.

What posts of StD's did you find towny?

Assuming this is aimed at me, I won't actually pull specific posts because why the fuck would I when i don't operate on that unless I'm locked on as I read surprisingly over multiple posts and frankly I'm not in the mood to quote wall either.

Overall, his posts have felt and read as genuine, to me his tone is open and often indignant, he's made several attempts to move past the miscommunications and I can honestly understand his perspective here. I feel as scum he would've either gone hard on counter attacks or gone quiet.

The "attacks" on him are absolute bilge water so far as I'm concerned.

Yes many of his posts do read genuine. He is exasperated, he is exhausted, he does have the major pain in the ass and bulwark that is KJ to deal with. That much is true but its not exclusively a town trait. As is an indignant tone or being open. You have to if you want to survive as scum. Being consistently conciliatory and self-effacing makes you a pushover and decreases your chances for survival. Moving past miscommunications should win no one favors, nor do I see that from StD's postings. Take 508 - 512 as an example, or better, the one you were clearly referring to 607 - 626. It takes half a page to state the obvious once its played out while there were better ways to handle that while driving home the supposedly important point that Gimli was acting in character to a scum meta.

Do you not think it a problem that StD hasn't "gone hard on counter attacks"? The reason you think that is that there's hardly any weight to his criticisms of his detractors in 575. I know I didn't feel anything from the paltry and unexacting blurb about me, and the others are of the same quality.

I'm not putting too much effort into digesting Eira's or KJ's reasons for voting StD while they are my wagonmates, much less concerned with them than say, Titus's or Enchant's vote. I have however have a good grasp of why HPE voted StD and I am happy to bat for that if need be.

---

I do not have a red polaroid equipped when reading through StD's postings. There are plenty that are not scummy, there are plenty that I could easily see coming from town, for example 762 pushing for engagement with HPE's wagoneers or 809 which is the kind of flipout I'd have expected earlier (ofc I think it's undercut by the very next post but ymmv).

But he's likely scum. There are certain absolutes. One for his past votes on KJ and HPE were bad. Particularly the scumread of HPE. It's not hard to see they are town, and I think StD is competent enough to be able to see that too.

Another thing that caught my eye was post 650. Eira imo did not respond to this properly but in StD's 575 this quote appears:

Eiralox is probably green but i'm still salty that they mischaracterized my...side's, i guess...argument to "wow you have a lot of scumreads" it doesn't look like they actually tried to understand what i was putting out so it's disappointing. other than that i've felt good vibewise about the slot.

I do not think town would have the same rote antagonistic response to 644; despite its... imaginative argumentation... town would not write it off completely as wasted breath.

I also dislike the self-vote pushing to E-2. It wasn't hammerable.

---

I can't say I'd be incredibly unhappy if Passenger is flipped instead; I think its rather self evident why (and no its not because he didn't change his vote off HPE after posting a reads list), but this opportunity to elim StD probably won't come again.

I might be around again in the hour before deadline but I think you guys can manage an Elim.

[ActionDan]

If Elements is scum then that does not bode well for the flip for either of these wagons

[ActionDan]

I just looked at doctor house m.d. game. It took 25 pages before she made a single post that scumhunted. Is there any other game of hers I can reference?

[ActionDan]

Alright thanks, I will look over noght

[ActionDan]

If scum killed enchant then they think either he is playing to his town meta or else other people can determine that. I am not familiar with either but I'm doubtful that it's due to fear. Also I would assume it means scum thinks they have the town where they want them.

Immediate people to look at are Titus/Passenger/Elements. I never read Elements meta, I ought to do that. I still think HPE / KJ are town. I think Flea is just town now.

[ActionDan]

Oh Passenger is dead. Shows my reading ability. Good vig shot regardless. ty.

[ActionDan]

Will post tonight after work. Titus being the kill makes 0 sense to me I guess good job getting a pr.

I have a lot of this game as town, I'm going to soft reset

[ActionDan]

Reread elements and read up on a town game KJ linked of them from day 1. I cant find appreciable differences and furthermore I think elements posting in this game is town again. I did not take into account the parity role cop like claim which I independently find believable as well as its presentation and rollout.

This also means I quite literally have no scumreads.

I'm going to look through individual isos one by one and see If I can pick up on anything as I go though. I really wish I could spend some more time on this game my work is killing me

[ActionDan]

quote="In post 1098, Bellaphant"]

If scum killed enchant then they think either he is playing to his town meta or else other people can determine that. I am not familiar with either but I'm doubtful that it's due to fear. Also I would assume it means scum thinks they have the town where they want them.

Immediate people to look at are Titus/Passenger/Elements. I never read Elements meta, I ought to do that. I still think HPE / KJ are town. I think Flea is just town now.

Explain any of these??[/quote]

I assume you strictly mean the reads in the 2nd paragraph

I didn't like Titus's end of day vote which was made it seemed purely on info Elim purposes which in general I find scummy because we have an obligation to at least try to Elim scum and choose the better option. Obviously Titus being the nk makes this mute.

Passenger had absolutely no will to live / clamped up nor posted anything remotely towny since.... ever (but not particularly scummy either). Kinda self evident on that one.

I did not perceive elements to make an honest effort end of D1 and in general hadnt made any really since mid d1 or so but on reread the iso looks better than I imagined.

As for HPE/KJ I am clinging on to earlier reads but admit could be wrong. Clearly they look worse on flip

Flea looks better from the flip and my view of them has been steadily improving from their posting since mod day 1 or so. You mentioned tmi from them. Could you pinpoint where you thought that?

[ActionDan]

Mostly, but I'm happier with a passenger elim, specifically because I feel his approach to me specifically is weird: he talks about his read on me a lot, and I'm not the most interesting person in the thread by miles, plus the language copying.
The hpe wagon was worse.

STD has the leading wagon since Thursday.

How is one sentence in one post a lot.

[ActionDan]

Can you also explain why "beyond making an impact" you did not appreciate my StD vote unlike others on the wagon. Unless that was the only reason. You seem to have harbored that opinion all of D1. And presumably today too.

[ActionDan]

I'm going to iso HPE tonight after work and revisit.

[ActionDan]

Picking up prod. when I wake up I guess I'll spend the day pouring over this. that is actually reading HPE / Gimli.

In the meantime.... game advancing post...

I think Bella is scum.

Been harboring this for a while and have had some misgivings just because Bella does seem to be capable of processing topical posts and do have at least some fluidity when making adjustments to their reads as well as being generally responsive but I still think their scum reads overall just don't track well, and are very limiting on what they take into account. For Std its tone (before they read his posts as town), for me its activity/impact or... this?

So it's even weirder that action Dan's top scum reads are in people who didn't make an impact day one, and let's the people who should've made an impact a town pass?!?

For Flea and Passenger it seems to be the content of one post a piece and in each case the justification for the scum read is in Flea's case weak, in Passenger's nonexistent.

Similarly, and considering Bella seems to have had time to have a decent grasp of the game, it does (or did not) appear that Bella considered either Gimli / HPE wagons appealing and has devoted some time to ask people to case HPE railing against the wagon. Meanwhile I would expect more of a push unto Me/Flea instead of being more content to simply list us as scumreads from the sidelines. Of course that might require actually reading our posts for content which either Bella does or chooses not to investigate overmuch.

VOTE: Bella

[ActionDan]

This just isn't happening today, pick someone that actually might get excited

I'm Isoing Gimli / HPE atm.

I've been asking for a full reads list since 1254 and this is the best you can come up with, LurkerDan?

Yes. My readslists isn't worth much since I haven't spent the time commitment to get solid reads regardless of category. I will at least say I think BBT, RR, Eira have risen for me into solidly town status and Mala/Flea are basically there. Yesterday I would have said the same of Gimli and HPE and yourself.

STD I knew was flipping town, the wagon was garbage and I pushed against it and got ignored.

I remember asking specifically what posts you found that were towny of StD which you never pointed out. In your iso you make reference to one only. As far as your push on me goes its not particularly timely nor comprehensive especially since you thought StD wagon was garbage and the majority of my content was scumreading him.

[ActionDan]

There's not going to be 5 scum. I lean massclaim here anyway. Vig didn't get a shot off which means they might be compromised. 2 parity cop checks should be powerful now and scum will likely not fake claim VT or power into it. And lastly massclaim will be impotent in an e-lo situation which we will likely be in after a miselim and i dont have confidence we'll elim correctly.

[ActionDan]

I still think Bella is pretty scummy but I wonder if it would not be irresponsible to not look into HPE wagoners

What do you think Bella!

Mala could you give a concise summary why you think Gimli scum? I agree with you about Andres meta but that's about as far as I go. Thought his iso again looked townie

[ActionDan]

Also don't really know why enchant getting a pass here unless there's something about their Meta I don't understand

[ActionDan]

I don't know if Gimli is scum, I'm open to it overall and I prefer not to vote there today. My solve is "Action" (cough cough) Dan > Gamma > Elements > everyone else. I don't think any of those three slots I named will flip Town and ActionDan with his ISO what it is really should have been flipped D2.

VOTE: ActionDan

I can be persuaded onto Gimli after ActionDan, Gamma and Elements have been flipped pretty much.

One might have been fooled into thinking you had an off chance to develop a sense of humility after sitting on two town elims!

[ActionDan]

In a vacuum KJ has a 30% chance of being scum instead of everyone else's 36.4% chance

[ActionDan]

In a vacuum KJ has a 30% chance of being scum instead of everyone else's 36.4% chance

What is the math for this

Glad you asked! Let's learn and rhyme!

As an outside observer looking in, they see 12 alive as numbers grow thin
black spot removes one from the pool, eleven remain - so far we cool?
4/11 is base chance, and it might seem that way too for KJ at a glance
but we know scum did kill, and KJ opted out of that thrill
So separate 1 killer from the group, and you can conclude in one fell swoop
what's left is 3/10, and that's math you can full send!

[ActionDan]

Feel like I'm going crazy, gimli

Trollollollloll

[ActionDan]

Its going to be a long day for me I've got maybe 30 min in this train and then nothing till midnight. Maybe.

@Bbt why the vote mon ami?

[ActionDan]

Cool, so, very clearly action Dan. I know this is a hard sell to you, because you seem to agree with some of his points on me, but actually go back and look at his case: it's actually untrue. In fact, I mention you in my response, as it was our char about std that made me change my read on him.

His read is also stale: no re-eval, no nothing. Honestly, do you remember anything action Dan has said?

See this was kinda your whole read on me. You confuse activity with scumminess. For someone that had clearly harbored a scum read on me for 2 game days you use 0 of the content I did have to evaluate me which at the very least should be considered to either soften or solidify your scumread.

As for your obsession with progress, what progress have you made this game? You have been weakly pushing me and Flea for two days. At least I had my cake and flipped StD Day 1.

(His final reads list BTW very much turning out to wrong not that I blame him much D1 and lots of pressure on his slot)

Now.

KJ, Bbt and Flea are the people on HPE you'd find scummy is that right? And Eira independently yes?

I will do you the service of reading them again (well not KJ, thats physically painful)

[ActionDan]

Mala hasn't been on town elims. You may be a bit biased since she has vote parked you in this regard.

And it is true we as a collective town are best served scrutinizing those who have been on town Elims first. After rereading HPE as they were being voted I really could not find anything scummy about except maybe a tad bit of an impertinent attitude. We really ought to evaluate how that came about

[ActionDan]

I probably should iso Gamma too

[ActionDan]

I did notice Bella! But its one thing to say that and another to lets say actually go after the worst offenders. Which is why I ask you again, who are they? As distracting as I am for someone unremarkable that ought to be a focus of yours surely.

@gilmi yes but it also means they didn't actively harm town either. I still think it wise to look at wagons first and want to give Bella at least an out here

[ActionDan]

What a coincidence neither am I!

So Bbt and maybe Gamma. I'll read them in 12 hours. At work now enjoy the day!

[ActionDan]

Popping in to say, Elements is correct. I am VT.

And for added bonus. Yes it is true, you guessed it

I'm blackspotted

[ActionDan]

Some of guys have really bad takes. I'll attribute it to shock.

All the PRs I believe. Although I would be a bit cautious with Bellas since that's quite strong to have a superior BP (of we had follower/watcher combo)

Still at work, then trivia then home

[ActionDan]

Read Gimli on train. He's as town as I remember d1 and d2 except please explain how you consistently liked my posting then isoed me and then did a 180 today before my reveal. That's fucked.

[ActionDan]

RR why is enchant maybe town. What posts of theirs do you think are towny

[ActionDan]

And in general for people that claim to be able to read enchant given time: two days have passed whats the prognosis?

Reading Gamma now

[ActionDan]

Read Gamma.

Gamma can you go through what pushed you to vote HPE over eira D2 and your thoughts generally on both throughout the day?

I'm concerned about your vote on HPE because there's no visible support for it.

I do not otherwise think your posting is scummy.

[ActionDan]

Reading eira rr next after work

[ActionDan]

Agree with gimli enchant iso looks quite scummy. No town vibe to it as RR suggests and prefer that Elim over Gamma.

Elements still looks town to me and if there's a fake PR it's Bella.

Not gonna read w.e Flea posted but clearly we are eliming.

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Enchant

Happy to put a vote down but let's also use the day to the fullest.

Gimli can you address the issue I posed to you where you flipped your read on me from town to scum? I generally like things you say but I would like to have some more confidence that wasn't blatantly opportunistic

[ActionDan]

Alright thanks

[ActionDan]

I got home way too late yesterday and passed out immediately. I should be able to be able to post tonight since its a work from home day

[ActionDan]

Saw Malas post, dunno what happened but sorry it did, have a good day! <3

[ActionDan]

gg scum wp.

That was an absurdly terrible game from me

[ActionDan]

I dunno which one of you stole Andres but I want him back thx