i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hi! My name is Niamh, and I'm a Phoenix Summon! I'm not sure what I'm doing here, but I'm Here To Help!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

can you catch me up Gimli? Like why did 3 scum suddenly die for starters?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so should we hunt someone else then, and let Titus SuiBomb NM?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hmm, okay. I feel like if Titus is town she can be pointed at a confirmed scum and say "kill this" and if she doesn't then she's scum anyway and dying and we kill her tomorrow?

Like... we just watched 3 scum die, I gotta imagine we have a little space.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I disapprove of a Quiet Owl elimination.

You have a strong QO read?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

At work so I'm not sqapping accounts >.>

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I will personally reject any and everything that happened in the neighborhood thread that could be scum theatre, in fact I'm scumreading ranger twice as hard just because she apparently had some interaction with mathblade during night.

neighborhood is serving just for scum to pocket and rolefish and do theatrics at night and all things bad.

I enjoy this person.

This is good posting. It coule be scum MOTIVATED good posting but it's good posting all the same.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon. makes me think that whatever she is, she's crucial to scum winning.

purely based on that frigging weird behaviour, VOTE: Ranger

So we kill NM during day and have Titus suibomb Ranger at night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Both are likely biased in their assessments, but Ranger's has more of an agenda of pushing one narrative while sweeping another under the rug.

Yes but in both scenarios NM is scum.

So we do NM, titus kills ranger, rangee kills QO (what did they claim that can do that?) amd we clear all those problems and probably win?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like that is where the scum is IMO. At most 1 remaining outside of that. Well, SK possibles...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm in no rush, to be clear. I'm trying to read up on this game I magically find myself in incase I need to solve this after today. Assuming I'm alive after today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey can I ask a very fair question?

If this is something NM was gifted, why did he claim to have to post a miltank with a hammer as part of it? Wouldn't that be something that would appear in his role PM over an invention?

Furthermore, why did NM withhold that info until the moment it would potentially spare him?

The whole thing is fishy top to bottom.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you have a reason you're appealing to the crowd in this manner? If you find it suspicious, why not make the case and push it? This seems unusual to me.

Not_Mafia was a replacement, so I believe that it makes more sense that it was something given to him midgame, and Enchant was allowed to flavor his inventions. It seems very fitting that he would give Not_Mafia that power, as they both have a joy for hammering.

Appealing to the crowd gives everyone a chance to answer, which solves things like "NM was a replacement" which I didn't know.

that's why, my dude. Because I'm days behind in this game so when I make an argument like that I'm literally asking for someone to disprove it for me or come in and provide more evidence to solidify it because I don't HAVE THAT EVIDENCE

lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like cut me a little slack here as I try to engage with this game, open invitations for engagement are a great tool for this why are you pressed about that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like cut me a little slack here as I try to engage with this game, open invitations for engagement are a great tool for this why are you pressed about that?

Reasonable. It didn't come across like you were looking for more information, it sounded more like you wanted others to come to the conclusion you had. I may have read too much into it, though. It surprised me as an approach, is all.

I mean, it probably came across that way because the implied question was "uh, am I crazy or does this all add up to being this obvious thing?"

it was a sanity check of a question opened to the whole thread for the opportunity to support or deny the take. It's... like playing Cleudo? You present a world and ask if anyone can disprove it and if no one does.... it's a good sign that world has some merit to explore, at minimum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

IDK what to do next. who are we eliminating? QO or ranger?

Honestly, can't NM be SK? the Lycanfire hammer is... a lot to overlook.

But if we're not doing NM...

Ranger's my read preference but I don't trust Titus to shoot QO for us, where as I do trust titus to blast Ranger in the fuckin' face.

So.... QO, I think.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Make me a promise that if they live through the night you don't allow them to change their story again and make excuses, and elim them like we should have on day 2.

Is this to me? If so, about who? Who did you want to kill day 2?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean...

Titus is a claimed compulsive sui bomber. If she doesn't die, we kill her tomorrow on principle no?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

IDK what to do next. who are we eliminating? QO or ranger?

Honestly, can't NM be SK? the Lycanfire hammer is... a lot to overlook.

But if we're not doing NM...

Ranger's my read preference but I don't trust Titus to shoot QO for us, where as I do trust titus to blast Ranger in the fuckin' face.

So.... QO, I think.

If Ranger flips town, I'll shoot QO in the face.

My current world is Ranger+QO Scum with NM SK so... this isn't particularly comforting to me, Titus.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean...

Titus is a claimed compulsive sui bomber. If she doesn't die, we kill her tomorrow on principle no?

By logic, yes. I don't trust people to act logically. I'm asking you and Gimli since I doubt all three of us die and you're the two I expect might listen.

I thought Titus and imaginality were the scummiest slots in the game since the time I started reading the thread when I replaced in at the start of day 2. There was a theory for a while that they were a serial killer lover duo which still seems likely to me.

Oh I'll 100% ensure it.

the other option we have is this.

We could flip Titus today to limit the number of kills and try to slow play this. Flipping titus, if they tell the truth, would flip Imagine and then Mastina shoots her gun + a scum kill + an SK kill is... max 5 kills without any cross kills.

But that world could leave us with possibly 2 scum or a scum and an SK alive

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it's much better to just ensure ALL of them die.

NM, Titus, Imagine, QO, Ranger

all 5 die and if those 5 die we are left with... Gimli, You Me and one other person? Kitty?

I think that's just all townies, personally. So.... it's hard not to want to go for that world.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.

Ouais, je sais. I included it in the write up I just did.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

IDK what to do next. who are we eliminating? QO or ranger?

Honestly, can't NM be SK? the Lycanfire hammer is... a lot to overlook.

But if we're not doing NM...

Ranger's my read preference but I don't trust Titus to shoot QO for us, where as I do trust titus to blast Ranger in the fuckin' face.

So.... QO, I think.

If Ranger flips town, I'll shoot QO in the face.

My current world is Ranger+QO Scum with NM SK so... this isn't particularly comforting to me, Titus.

It's not comforting to me that you want to kill my VCA clear when Patterson and Gimli are much more suspicious.

You think Patterson and Gimli are suspicious?

That's like my top 2 townreads.

You gotta explain those scumreads Titus.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.

Ouais, je sais. I included it in the write up I just did.

Explanation makes sense then. I read it as "we would flip imaginality after", misunderstood.

All good.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Unless we get a doc claim on Ranger or a QO block (unlikely), there's certain scum in Ranger and QO.

QO, why didn't you claim this sooner? Why wait until massclaim?

If we don't have ANY claims that prevent this by the town... isn't it most likely they're both scum? and that this is a final gambit to clear one of them when the other flips?

speaking of claims, our role is N3 Hydra Recruiter which does exactly what it says on the tin. Basically if Furtive survived to N3 they could pull a player outside the game into the game (the player has to accept the recruitment or the ability fails) to join their slot as a part of a hydra, a proven ability as you can see by my existence lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i'll full claim, it doesn't matter

i'm town even day vengeful odd day super saint.

What's a super saint?

-Summon

Supersaint is an ability that auto kills the person who hammered the Saint.

so if we were a super saint, and Gimli cast the final vote to hammer us, we'd die, and then Gimli would die with us.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I feel Ranger is the SK and scum want the KPN. Her post might as well scream SK.

KPN?

-Summon

Kill Power Number. I.E: Scum want another townie to be shot before the SK dies, is Titus' assertion.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't think it should be too much to ask for me to get a straight answer to questions without having to ask 4 times for every question.

Did I miss a question?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We can actually possibly prove Ranger and Kitty's roles and leashish me.

We lim QO.
I target Gimli (to control body county)
Ranger and Kitty both target me or imaginality.

We'd be safe at least wifom. Paterson would be dead. [Confirming this with the mod, otherwise I withdraw it]

This would leave NM, myself and imaginality, Summon, Ranger, KittyTacky, and Paterson.

One would die.

Lim Paterson. Game should end.

You and Imagine won't die in this scenario?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can we just get enough players to agree to the plan (that I thought we already agreed)?

Vote Not_Mafia, Titus bombs Ranger, Ranger targets Quiet Owl (and KittyTacky doesn't).

If someone doesn't do what they're meant to, we have an easy vote tomorrow.

If that all happens, Gimli, Prince of Paterson, KittyTacky and us remain and if we're all town we win.

-Summon

They aren't though.

You're wrong on Gimli. I thought you liked VCA? Besides, his role matches his play today. Prince of Paterson's claim was random but he did seem against claiming beforehand which could explain it. KittyTacky is the one I'm least sure of but I don't think xyzy would put 2 Mafia vendors in on top of a Mafia Inventor, so he's surely town by claim.

-Summon

I'll look at this again but I'd like to verify Ranger and Kitty and keep you me imaginality alive.

wait why are we included in the people keeping alive?

What is your plan here?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But I will go along if QO is the lim and we vig NM. I think Paterson is a better lim though.

We can swap QO and NM in positions, that's not really an issue, the end result should be the same.

We all good with that? It would be

Lim QO
Ranger kills NM
Titus bombs Ranger
Imagineality Lover Dies with Titus' Bomb

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You okay with the plan, Prince?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A quiet owl lim seems like the correct path forward. I disagree with one of the premises stated that we cannot have 2 group scum remaining. I don't think we can make any predictions about balance without knowing the nature of the ??? phase.

But I don't think there's much we can do about that at this point.

I concur.

Do you have anything else you want to talk about today before we go to night? I sort of feel like we've run the gammit on the discussion and I want to have the time to delve into back reading incase this doesn't end the game (though, honestly, it has better odds than not to end it).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You okay with the plan, Prince?

My expectation is that either the game will end upon completion of the plan or Titus and imaginality will still be alive, saying someone must have doc'd them. I don't think they would be able to end the game tonight but it's difficult to know with how many unknown factors this game has. I am somewhat resistant to trying to solve bastard games via mechanics that we don't fully understand, but if the Hated claim is true, Owl has already been hammered so it doesn't matter.

... Oh, wait.

I forgot Owl claimed hated.

Okay yeah for sure we should 100% not have anyone else vote so we can test the hated claim, but it shouldn't change anything.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So Kitty has double vote...?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What is our scenario here then.

Also, no one vote. If Kitty is scum any misvote ends the game instantly.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Wait, actually, I have an idea of what might be going on here. I'd like everyone to check in first. And again, please don't vote.

Please talk to me you are like the only person I am confident is town with me here lmfao.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I had a thought, btw.

Why does scum shoot Gimli there? Probably because Gimli is a Vengeful, so we were likely to eliminate him today and let him fire away.

So my question is who has an argument to try and make them look town, but is afraid of getting hero shot by Gimli?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Does anyone even fit that criteria?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sorry, i didn't include the neighbour thing because i thought it had already been claimed we were part of that giant neighbourhood. we were just mass claiming what our abilities were so i didn't bother to like, write out the full role name, but what Summon wrote is correct.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't think whoever doublevoterized me is town anyhow. I'd think a town doublevoterizer would have given the power to someone who isn't a dumb fuck.

Wait.

You're saying you... aren't a double voter by role?

What is your role again precisely?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Explicitly then, you have no knowledge or connection with what happened directly after Night 3, phase ???, is that correct? If there's anything else going on here and you're town, now is the time to be honest about it. I have some information that suggests something might not be right here, but you may be able to explain it.

Not that we're aware of by our role PM. I just went to check it again now, but the recruitment that occured to me happened PRIOR to ??? phase. I remember because I got pulled into the game at night, saw the role PM and went oh cool, it'll be day 4 it's time to start playing!

and then I had to wait like 72 more hours for that ??? phase which was helpful for reading the game but fucking annoying not going to lie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm going to need you to fill us in here, my dude.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

After Not_Mafia claims. Thanks for clarifying.

Kay. I'm trusting you, lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you not need a Kitty claim?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What in the fuck is that claim

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Town Multitasking is.

No. Just no.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Multitasking what precisely. They are a vendor with a one shot. They can multi task ONCE. Why give them that modifyer?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm a naive cop

I'm sorry what.

Like, as in

The keyword Naive that hasn't been used in like a decade?

As in "Only provides innocent results"?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This game is a fucking shitshow.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm a naive cop

No other restrictions? Who did you target last night?

I received something last night, I'm guessing that nobody alive is claiming to be responsible for that? It wasn't what I would expect to receive if KittyTacky had vended to me.

I can confirm we didn't send anything to you friend.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And if anything our role is proven by my existence. We aren't fake claiming.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And if anything our role is proven by my existence. We aren't fake claiming.

While that aspect of your role is certainly true, it doesn't prove that is the only part of your role.

I'd like to hear if KittyTacky targeted me last night.

I mean yes but look at all the power that has flipped and consider how powerful a just a recruiter is.

Anyway, what did you get sent?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am pretty sure this is scum trying to frame us to save themselves Prince.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But also there are 0 roles that could have sent this to you.

All dead players are flipped and no role shows this.

And if a living player sent this to you they would be scum for lying about their role.

And we would never frame ourselves.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So in my mind one of three things is happening

1) one of kitty (who has multiacying things they can send) or NM (who is claiming no action) sent you this to frame us in LYLO.

2) Ranger has some kind of scum factional ability that lets them send info.

3) You are faking this and you are the last scum Prince

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Truthfully the fact that there is no townie ability claimed or dead that could send a message like this means it is 100% from scum (whether you are faking it or it was really sent).

Which means I'm confirmed town. This is a huge blunder by scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like they tried to do some kind of move but actually confirmed town cleared us by doing this. There is no role in the game that could have sent that to you unless someone is lying scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I encourage someone to make an argument how this comes from anything but scum trying to frame an obvious townie and if you make even a lick of logical sense I'll accept it but

There is no action or role that could have performed this!

Titus trusted us with this game so I'm going to win this for town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Quiet Owl died DAY 4. With a FLIPPED ROLE.

Not possible.

Neither is Blanco.

Once again we remain confirmed town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Quiet Owl died DAY 4. With a FLIPPED ROLE.

Not possible.

Neither is Blanco.

Once again we remain confirmed town.

I'm not sure we're confirmed town. We're confirmed to have our role, and we're confirmed to be the target of a scum ploy (either by a scum messager or Prince lying). There is a nightmare scenario of 2/1/1 if both a Mafia and a SK remain, in which we could possibly be scum and the target of a scum ploy. But yes, we are nearly confirmed town.

-Summon

Two things.

One, if it's 2/1/1, town has lost. I'm not going to live in a world where we have lost..

Two, our role PM says town which invalidates that world lmfao.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I get you want to be fair to every possible world I really do?

But at this point between our voting record our day play and this we are so so so confirmed town.

And here is why stating this so everyone understands it is important.

If KT is scum, all 3 townies must agree.

I refuse to live in a 2-1-1 world. That world is a town loss and I'm playing kingmaker rn. I'll just ignore it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like at this point I invite KT and NM to come into this convo when they come back and read my logic about this whole scenario.

And if you disagree with my being confirmed town please argue why/how that is possible so we can clear this up.

But at this point its really imperative that townies get this leader who can unify them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My first instinct on gut was to tell you to unvote because of wanting to discuss more but

Prince and I cannot both be scum here and Kitty's the one who could hammer from this position so this vote is probably fine?

Can you elucidate for me how you came to this decision, NM?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

There is no reason for me as scum to come into this day phase, while being the only confident townread of yours, and do this. If I were scum I could have easily gotten an elimination on Not_Mafia or KittyTacky.

I'm also not pushing you. I doubt I would vote for you. I believe I have an obligation to share the message that I received.

The fact that there were two messages (received in the same PM, but clearly marked as separate) is part of what made me doubt that this is just a scum mailman or something messing with me. That would only arrive as one message. This seems to be a clearly defined power where the message comes in two parts. That makes it less easy for me to dismiss it as clearly faked by scum.

I get your obligation if you are actually town, but the fact is you're sitting here in an ELO situation and instead of talking to me about who you think is scum between Kitty and NM you're grilling me on a thing you received as two different messages that no living player as of last night could have done without being scum.

And your argument is that a dead player could have sent it. Well, QO made 0 mention to this ability and probably would have claimed it while they were alive, don't you think? I think that QO as a townie would 100% have claimed it, so when a townie GOT THAT MESSAGE they would know who it was from.

So not QO.

And then Bianco, why didn't they use it in days before this? And if it's just them, why is it two split messages?

Let's say I trust you, because I do or at least I want to believe my read on you was correct. Let's say you're telling the truth, and let's then argue for the sake of argument it isn't NM or KT (even though KT has claimed multitasking and could have theoretically sent 2 different messages with 2 different abilities and still killed so that seems to explain it being 2 messages?)

The only other option would be something related to the ??? phase right? Like 3 scum died out of NOWHERE and no mechanic explains it. Maybe it's a game mechanic then, and in exchange for suddenly being dead on day 4 they get to each send a message to influence the game anonymously.

So they know I see you as town and if they send this to you they can try and make a fake story to tell us both down this river.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, I am asking you in a Bastard game, in ELO, to trust your eyes and your reads.

It's one of NM or KT at this point. I want them to cross vote and I want to discuss it with you, because right now I'm leaning KT.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ah we're of different minds then?

Talk to me about why you think KT is town on play Summon.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ah we're of different minds then?

Talk to me about why you think KT is town on play Summon.

I'm not saying that, and if this was mountainous I'd be thinking differently. My argument is that KT is town on claim (or at least

not Mafia

).

-Summon

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly, Kitty if evil is probably group scum not SK.

The one who is SK if an SK exists is NM. To be quite honest.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A thought I had is that KittyTacky sent to Ranger on night 2. Ranger was scum. We don't have any town confirmation that KittyTacky does actually send what he says he does on even-numberered nights.

This is really possible.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

The Usurper phrasing specifically is what made me question things. I don't think you'd be standard mafia. If you're scum then it's third party and your slot needed to kill the mafia godfather and be the last one remaining.

As for the other two, I've read KittyTacky as town by play, but it's believable that he could be a serial killer, since that often allows one to play as uninformed. I think Not_Mafia does have some mafia team equity with his hammer to save Ranger, even if Ranger may have genuinely not wanted him to.

I lean towards KittyTacky as well. I think him falling off in presence as the game has progressed is not a good sign.

That isn't what Usurper does.

Usurper only needs the Godfather to die prior to the end of the game or before the Usurper does. Not be the last survivor.

So my chasing Ranger would have been strictly bad for us if scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also Usurper isn't a third party role. It's a scum role. If we were usurper we would have been on the scum team, and known who the godfather was to get them killed.

And only killed the one person.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like you have to understand it doesn't add up, Prince.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The role, to my understanding, isn't used much and might not work exactly the same way that it does on the wiki. Given the phase ??? I think the role would be necessarily different. I agree it doesn't fully match up, though.

Why do you think Not_Mafia is more likely serial killer and KittyTacky is more likely groupscum? That doesn't make much sense to me.

NM got gifted the hammer. I don't think scum gives scum that when they know NM will be the final scum alive.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The role, to my understanding, isn't used much and might not work exactly the same way that it does on the wiki. Given the phase ??? I think the role would be necessarily different. I agree it doesn't fully match up, though.

Why do you think Not_Mafia is more likely serial killer and KittyTacky is more likely groupscum? That doesn't make much sense to me.

If it were called Usurper it would function the same. If it were different how would anyone know if I was third party?

And if someone wasn't trying to frame us and confuse you, wouldn't they just call us SK as one word or even just Scum? Or Killer?

It makes 0 sense and doesn't match the truth at all.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

Then is your preference to do NM today? My partner will be happy... I don't fully agree though.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like at this point we need to be voting together as town, and with NM and KT likely to cross vote given NM's vote, we have to make a choice.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

Then is your preference to do NM today? My partner will be happy... I don't fully agree though.

Can you explain again why Mafia would have 2 Vendors and an Inventor?
It just seems unlikely to me.
-Summon

I don't know. Why are the mafia disloyal? Disloyal inventors with a single scumteam can only give to townies. That's a disadvantage in a way.

Usually you see disloyal with 2 split scum teams.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

Then is your preference to do NM today? My partner will be happy... I don't fully agree though.

I want an answer to this, tbh.

I'd like to know where you plan to put your vote today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do we know where the double vote ability came from?

0 fucking clue. Not even KT appears to know, by claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

Then is your preference to do NM today? My partner will be happy... I don't fully agree though.

Haven't decided yet. As I said before I lean towards thinking KittyTacky is more likely to be scum overall, but I do think that if he is, he's more likely to be serial killer. I was just explaining why I don't think it's guaranteed that Not_Mafia isn't groupscum.

I see. Well, this is the issue.

Today, if we're deciding between NM and KT, I need you to start actually weighing those options and discussing them with me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Even now we have a lot of kills unaccounted for. I think there almost has to be a serial killer still alive.

Okay, there is a risky play that might be worth considering if we DO have 2 evils alive.

We could choose to not eliminate, and see if the SK and the Scum shoot each other. It'd be a prisoner dilemma on their parts.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If you genuinely think there MUST be two... it is our only winning play as town.

But it's probably better to assume only one scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do we know where the double vote ability came from?

0 fucking clue. Not even KT appears to know, by claim.

So it can only come from scum, right? If I were scum why would I give the double vote to someone to the person I'd likely be 1v1ing, even if I couldn't target myself I'd give it to one of the townie players and focus on getting them to vote with me

I agree with you my dude. I think you'd have given it to me and tried to convince me it was KT.

I'm not the one you need to convince here, I suspect.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not sure why scum KittyTacky claims multitasking when he could just not ever vend meat. Actually, I suppose so that he could claim he vented meat to the kill target if he ever gets tracked or watched.

Why haven't you vended meat, KittyTacky?

Wait, the meat thing wasn't confirmed? NO ONE has received the meat ever?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Even now we have a lot of kills unaccounted for. I think there almost has to be a serial killer still alive.

Okay, there is a risky play that might be worth considering if we DO have 2 evils alive.

We could choose to not eliminate, and see if the SK and the Scum shoot each other. It'd be a prisoner dilemma on their parts.

If you genuinely think there MUST be two... it is our only winning play as town.

But it's probably better to assume only one scum.

If KittyTacky retains his double vote tomorrow he can kill me and use his double vote force a no-lim and win the game the following night.

The winning play is to eliminate KittyTacky

Ahh... I didn't consider that. That's actually possible that it's a factional ability of some form if they're the last scum remaining.

Or that Kitty is the Usurper thing in this game and that town and scum both got to send something, so town sent usurper and scum sent our name?

Ah...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm gonna be honest, Prince.

I really think we have to do KT here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Being honest I really do feel like this is three townies being paranoid and one scum dodging the thread.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I hope so. I don't think KittyTacky has really tried to solve in a while now. There's a couple of things I wanted to reread still but maybe it doesn't matter.

Are you willing to prove me town to make this easier on you?

If you vote KT right now, we will show we're not instantly hammering, and you can feel comfortable we're town.

You've already convinced us you're town, so... I'd like to be able to show you without a doubt we're town so you can really dive into this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not looking to end this early, so as the one in this hydra who actually thinks its KT, I assure you I'm going to say "not voting" and just assure you we are town and then we can discuss between NM and KT.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I definitely want KittyTacky to come and post before we decide anything

The thing I keep coming back to is that all of Not_Mafia's arguments can be countered by him just straight-up lying/being scum.

-Summon

Yeah I'm not looking to eliminate KT right now, I'm just saying I want us to be proven town so we can help facilitate this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh noooo I scared Prince off

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, I am asking you in a Bastard game, in ELO, to trust your eyes and your reads.

It's one of NM or KT at this point. I want them to cross vote and I want to discuss it with you, because right now I'm leaning KT.

Are you sure you want me to vote NM? If NM is town, mafia could hammer.

I have to trust in Prince being town and myself being town.

If you vote NM right now, I will show you that I will not hammer, you'll see I'm confirmed town, and it really will be that easy.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

For me, it's always going to be one of you or NM today, so I'd rather you vote now earlier than later so I have a chance to discuss with Prince from a position of "hey look I'm town you can stop being paranoid now"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I fullclaimed there.

Ah, I see. Hmm.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But yeah, KT, I am 100% positive I want you to cross vote with NM here and to do it when you next come online and see this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I just don't want to vote NM until EOD because it's equivalent to ending the day right then and there and I want discussion.

Because while I understand this, you need to understand that

1) The day isn't going to end. The discussion will be had, all this will do is prove Prince and I are both town.

2) Voting earlier is what PROVIDES that discussion, because right now Prince is doing a handstand and a cartwheel over that nonsense message he received. He literally hasn't spent even a half glance today on either you or NM. It's crucial that we get to force and prove to him and the game what the status of the game is.

Essentially, if you trust me as town here, and you trust Princee as town here, you should vote NM.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

either way, not voting

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm here and not voting.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

there are 2 votes on NM, my vote would be enough to eliminate NM, our slot is town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Not_Mafia

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What can I say?

when I'm recruited for my prowess as scum, I have to deliver a win for the player who recruited me. Nothing else matters.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What were the full roles of Prince and KT?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, the multiple kills, folks, were from 2 different scum factions. That's why there were disloyal members. I did give you a hint ahaha

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What can I say?

when I'm recruited for my prowess as scum, I have to deliver a win for the player who recruited me. Nothing else matters.

back when I designed this, I definitely had in the back of my mind that the hydra recruit ability had the potential to either be a nothing ability or the most powerful thing in the game; I like that it turned out to be the latter.

btw, here's the info from the dead thread:

hello! if you have access to this thread, that means you've died. but that doesn't mean your influence on the game is over! once at least 6 players have died, I will begin running games of Lovers Mafia (2 mafia lovers versus 4 town) continuously in this thread. each time you win a game, you'll gain the ability to send one word to a living player during the following night. each player who wins at least one of these games as both town and mafia before the beginning of each night phase will also gain a one-shot night ability to grant a living player an additional vote for the next day. finally, the player who wins the largest number of these games and isn't part of the winning faction for the main game will be an additional winner at the end of the game.

all the standard rules of the main game thread apply here as well, with the one exception that you're not required to play to the win condition of the lovers mafia subgames as long as you're playing to your main game win condition. if for some reason you want to be temporarily or permanently excluded from participating in the game, please let me know. if you haven't posted here yet, I will assume that you do not wish to play in any lovers mafia games, and I will also do that if you simply stop posting in this thread.

Look I'm happy to lend my expertise to a scum team in need, what can I say?

LLD, Phoenix for Hire.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, the ??? phase was an AB Game Prisonner Dilemma between the two scum factions (Kitty, StP, Ranger vs McMenno, MathBlade and Enchant)

We begin the game as one team. When 1 scum dies, we become different teams for the rest of the game. When a second scum WOULD die, prevent that and instead, play a game where the scum teams choose Cooperate or Betray seperately.

If both teams chose Cooperate, both teams lived.
If one team chose Cooperate and the other betray, the team that chose cooperate all dies suddenly and the team that chose betray lives.
If both teams choose betray, the team whose death would have caused this phase (turns out Ranger being shot by QO's vig was the trigger) all die, and the remaining team lives, however the game then becomes White Flag for them (if scum are down to 1 scum alive only, town win).

In the end, I had Ranger con Mathblade, and sharpened the knives myself, then bussed Ranger into fucking oblivion to ensure our team would win. I was gonna feel real bad for making Ranger betray the other team and bussing them that hard if I didn't win so....

Maaaaaaximum Effort.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can we have the dead thread?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Dead players sended messages who final mafia is.

You still didn't manage.

Mafia deserved this win after such incompetency.

I mean... sending "Usurper" didn't really help. Infact that was the crack I wiggled my way through.

Never underestimate my ability to take a game full of effectively confirmed townies and convince them I'm actually the towniest one in the room.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This game is going to get me so much more paranoia now. Ahahaha

[Lady Lambdadelta]

fool me once, shame on... shame on you. fool me... you can't get fooled again.

make KittyTacky 2x Voter

send "furtiveglance" and "ranger" to KittyTacky

sadhgshkashsdfio;sla

NO SHOT DUDE

[Lady Lambdadelta]

oh damn
Were there spoilers or did the dead thread just have good reads?
I'd love to read it

there were some scum in there who weren't too pleased about dying

Oh, don't worry!

That was alllllllllllll me. Don't worry about Ranger and Furtive. I made a calculation of our win efforts and realized how likely it was that we were in a bad position. Even if we had won and killed all the townies, we would have been left at your mercy not to end game us... which was near impossible.

So I forced them to Betray.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not remotely sorry. I got recruited into this game during the phase where this was happening, never got to talk to the other team and had no illusions we could win otherwise.

In the end, my choices led my team, and more importantly

The Player Who Recruited Me

to a win. That was all that mattered, nothing more, nothing less.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, yeah. I expected that to happen. I knew if there were any dead thread mechanics the betrayed scum would instantly sell us out in a pillar of salt not seen since biblical times.

In truth, probably a fair reaction! I mean, getting betrayed stings.

Ah well!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I needed a town player that I could talk to and unfortunately there wasn't one. I'm not sure why KittyTacky and Not_Mafia both thought I was town yet also disregarded the message entirely.

LLD was pretty clearly pushing agenda there, I just don't really have the strength to fight back against that on my own. Needed stronger town voices to survive to ELO.

Mmhmm!

I knew that you knew. That's why my goal was to lock you down while my partner looked townie. Intentional hydra dissonance and then a little butter up job at the end for KT's votes.

You played very well. I actually thought you might be a third party given how you handled it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No, Hydra Dissonance is town here. We don't have a set PLAN, we're not COORDINATED.

This was intentional, on my part.

I'm known for being a terrible neighbour, and if we're scum we have a PT anyway, a more worthwhile one, even.

It's actually better for us to show that we are "actually solving" in public, and sell that story to others.

that's why I asked what I asked. It's a theatre for the benefit of KT for you to get KT on board voting NM. You have to be the one to do it. If I do it, it looks manipulative at this point, but if you SPECIFICALLY do it it looks genuine.

More than even that, I'm abusing the fact that the mods explicitly allow for my using my own account. It's easier for me, first off, but not only is it easier it's also polarizing. It's showing I'm here and doing my OWN thing. I'm trying to solve this ON MY OWN and so our dissonance looks real.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

From Furtive and I's personal thread, after Furtive asked about the hydra dissonance we were doing (and the lack of talking I was doing to them about it)

I was purposefully ignoring my partner there to achieve something genuine.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like when I say I gave this game maximum effort because I was recruited as someone to come help save/seal this game away for scum, I was personally recommended to Furtive by Ranger.

It's hard for me not to feel responsible when I'm invited into a game that way, as either alignment to be clear. I was going to give this my all, always.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The part that I wanted to reread was your interactions with Ranger specifically. My memory had Ranger not seeming that concerned about dying and also you not pushing as hard for her death as I'd expect given your read on her. I was busy and didn't have time yet to confirm that, unfortunately.

Eh, Ranger put up a sort of fight at the end, but in truth with Titus pushing as hard for Ranger death at night, the real thing I did was come up with the plan that no townie should ever have listened to because it was just a literal "walk me to the end of the game" win plan lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

actually the real thing I did was forcefully leash Titus' suicide onto Ranger so I could kill QO that day. That role seemed scary AF when I read that claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If say we'd tried to lim Ranger D3, would that have resulted in the ??? phase coming before that night phase rather than after? If so then Ranger not being dead from the lim would have been very conspicuous compared to how it played out with it being an attempted NK that triggered it

Correct, I believe!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can we have the threads?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

okie ty

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Clearly

, the mods sent me the wrong role PM. There was

certainly

no way I could make up a claim like I did from scratch, right? Lying is against my mafia religion,

obviously

. Even if it weren't, my inexperience lying means there's

no way

I could invent a full lie,

for sure

.

Naturally

, it must've been mod error.

I don't know what

possibly

could have caused a N2 failure for the vend;

surely

I'd tell the truth, yes? I

definitely

received the role and results I claimed. Lying isn't a skill scum need,

undoubtedly

.

For those who don't get the sarcasm, let me make it clear;
I've been lying since my very first werewolf game, predating my time on mafiascum.

Scum lie; telling the truth is a weakness. There's certain lies which're unethical; as long as none crossing lines are made, anything goes.

If this stance seems out of place for your perspective on my mafia worldview, let me be clear;
I am not mastina, nor an alt of her.
Exploiting erroneous assumptions I am I don't consider unethical. I'll tell the truth when need be; I'll lie otherwise.

I specifically suggested the masonry

because that’s what mastina does

. So you were willing to exploit misconceptions about playing like mastina, but when I stole her gimmick you tried to snap my neck. Do you see how that comes off as shitty and manipulative?

So what you're saying is that two alters in the same system have similar but not identical playstyles, who are willing to when people use that misconception to try and read them don't disavow it because it's against their wincon as scum, but might be uncomfortable with other people trying to emulate who they are because it's one thing for an alter in a system to emulate their internal family and another for an external system to try and do the same?

I'm not sure where the manipulation comes in outside of playing to wincon within a game, to be honest with you. None of this seems particularly out of pocket.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean, if I made 13 accounts for all my alters I would like 1) For people to recognize me as our individual selves 2)to be able to utilize the skills that the other alters have helped us learn through the years and 3) for people not to bite the bits and stylings of my other sisters?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Good glad we agree.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think it would’ve been more fair if y’all were forced to post from a hydra account rather than posting on your mains? I feel like at least for me posting from a hydra can reduce thread presence, it depends on how I’m accessing it. Mobile definitely causes a marked thread presence reduction when on hydra.

I was told explicitly by the mods it was allowed so.