i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[KittyTacky]

Well crap, I missed the start.

[KittyTacky]

Some of this list I remember but much of it is unknown to me.

[KittyTacky]

nono i think i am not explaining well

i am not suggesting that we massclaim nor that it is a good idea or anything,

i am simply asking what others think is the mechanical ‘punishment’ for it or whatever

like if there is a warning for it ending poorly there would be a reason for this, yes?

so i wonder what others think that reason is

Maybe something Mafia have that can give them an extra kill if they can guess enough roles? idk

[KittyTacky]

imo mech spec has a niche in complex games like this, a town that makes sense of the setup is a town that has an edge instead of just being hit with random crap as the game goes on.

[KittyTacky]

tris town.

[KittyTacky]

I will die on that hill.

[KittyTacky]

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

[KittyTacky]

Gamma doesn't seem very much like town Gamma but that might be a "took a break" thing.

[KittyTacky]

Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

Damn, if only I could vote two players at once.

Feels like a soft.

[KittyTacky]

I will die on that hill.

woww!! really

Really.

[KittyTacky]

Oh so this game started... just had a skim so far...

Frogsterking seems to almost be trying to 1v1 vs Gamma. Seems risky if scum? Doesn't mean he's correct though. I want to know more about these meta reasons for scum reading Gamma.

I got a few vibes about others on my skim through but gonna sleep now then see if I agree with myself.

idk man both feel kinda scummy independently but I doubt this is a cross bus this early.

Gonna give y’all a little tip: you might not want to kill me.

Damn, if only I could vote two players at once.

Feels like a soft.

A soft of what? And why bring it up?

A soft of something important. And I brought it up because I think I'd rather you live instead of Frogster at this point.

[KittyTacky]

I'll catch up fully before voting.

[KittyTacky]

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Did anything give you the impression that frog and tris were scum theatreing, besides that read and retraction?

No, it was a quick thought that I discarded.

idk about Frogster, backing out on tris so fast might be scum theatre but I can't say I scumread him otherwise.

Oh come off it, assuming tris is town, then as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them.

I feel like you could have done any number of things, yes. I get why CSF saw an overall pattern of non-commital reads, I don't get how Kitty sees scum theatre because of the one read on tris.

I don't see where Kitty is explaining how this interaction looked like scum to them.

I'm not. It was bad vibes-- but overall I feel tris is too townie for this to be likely.

I have like 4 scum reads. Off the top of my head they're tris for asking some awkward looking questions, Ythan specifically for 62, the doll gimmick player has a first post I think feels safe to make from a scum PoV, and the lycanfire player has a first post followed by a second post which I think are safe from a scum PoV.

I'll read back and clarify on tris I guess: 37, 55, 64 I think can be kinda scummy.

I think furtive, csf and gamma seem OK based purely on meta but I'm not that confident. I don't actually understand Gamma's townread on andree but if Gamma is indeed town then I would probably sheep their townread on andree.

tris for asking some awkward looking questions,

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

I can believe it. You're more null then I guess.

Feels like Kitty was giving a reason to find Frog suspicious without having done much prior analysis. Unless you count "Frog wouldn't want to vote for tris, a scumbuddy" as analysis. I'm sorta suspicious that Kitty only made that post to add heat to frog without actually joining the fight

It was early, and I often read on vibes or sheep another case.

VOTE: Kitty

[KittyTacky]

Gamma became more townie after page 7.

[KittyTacky]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[KittyTacky]

In case anyone is getting burned out trying to read the thread just skip Gamma's posts, they're all intentionally full of shit to waste your time.

What do you mean by 'underperforming'?

Scum hunting, engaging, making posts with more than like five words, having actual reads on the game that they can explain without pretending like they can't understand the question (190, 204)

Gamma became more townie after page 7.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I threw up in my mouth. KT my read here is that you're tired but wanted to play so you skimmed the thread, jumped to this conclusion about Gamma, voted me and then went to bed.

No it's my actual read. Mostly on vibes and their soft claim, but also I don't think your push has much substance behind it.

[KittyTacky]

No one will miss Gamma

You know they nearly quit this site because of shit like this?

[KittyTacky]

Whether Gamma is scum or town this is a shitty thing to say.

[KittyTacky]

Mostly on vibes

That's what you get for sorting this way, then.

but also I don't think your push has much substance behind it.

I haven't referenced any examples yet for my meta read so this explanation makes sense to me.

Reference them then, if I have evidence to believe your push is in good faith then I'll unvote. But for now it seems like a scum push.

[KittyTacky]

@furtive

what do you make of the current gamestate?

Quite chaotic. This is the largest game I've played in (from the start) and I think the usually underrated art of sheeping will be very important, otherwise Mafia could really run riot.

With this in mind,

VOTE: imaginality

I shept in smaller games than this.

[KittyTacky]

Titus town, Ranger town.

[KittyTacky]

Sure Ranger townreads Frog so they're wrong imo but they clearly are putting genuine effort-- though I wish the reads were a bit better explained.

[KittyTacky]

I believe Gamma's ATE was townish ATE. It didn't give off fake emotion vibes.

[KittyTacky]

Lycan probs town. idk about imaginality. I'd rather frog today.

[KittyTacky]

The way I feel about Titu's defense of imaginality depends on imaginality's alignment tho.

[KittyTacky]

*Tiotus'

[KittyTacky]

Titus'

Sorry I'm drunk.

[KittyTacky]

VOTE: elements

Why, after taking another shot at Gamma immediately before?

[KittyTacky]

I'm still trying to get into the rhythm of the game and I feel the best way to do so is to ask questions.

[KittyTacky]

I don't really feel Elements scum.

[KittyTacky]

Give us links to Gamma.

[KittyTacky]

I’m willing to vote Ranger here.

Ranger is wrong town.

[KittyTacky]

Speaking of, Ranger, I'm reminding you about the Gamma meta links.

[KittyTacky]

What kinda scares me about this game is that there's likely a jester, and knowing how I normally tunnel on scummy people, i try to play a lot more cautiously. Which is why I'm not posting much.

[KittyTacky]

You probably don't believe me but i do have readlist!

Show us it.

[KittyTacky]

You probably don't believe me but i do have readlist!

It's not just you as town and everyone else null is it?

No!

I also have NM as Town!
And everyone else null.

Oh lol.

[KittyTacky]

I agree with Titus that Frogster is acting really weird. I've been finding it hard to put into words though.

[KittyTacky]

I don't understand the imaginality wagon, even before the mason stuff.

[KittyTacky]

The Ythan wagon is giving me deflection vibes. Like Frog is trying to change he subject on purpose. I'm looking over that exact event and it stinks so hard for me.

[KittyTacky]

Speaking of, Ranger, I'm reminding you about the Gamma meta links.

Any post not listed is either null or town. (As a reminder, I do see town in there.)
To present the scum half; 43 felt forced. This was andree's iso at the time; Gamma liked andree and nobody else? She had reads on andree and nobody else? 117/196 is a scum "I am not going to do This Thing" post. 146 forced bravado. 151 felt suspect. 192 as well. Projection. 232.
Reaction to vote on her was poor. 278 is a lot more forced than the Princess equivalent.
296 was too weak of a response, and lacked emotion; a town Gamma should've reacted to it. 327 felt out-of-place. 330's defense of imaginality is out of place given 296 prior. 340 felt unnatural. 355 felt too subdued. 436 feels fake. 460 is a scum-oriented thought, at least like that. (Town would try to resolve the conflict in read vs wagon reads.) She also doesn't specify which names on the wagon are what, the very same thing imaginality didn't do. Hated 466.

As a reminder, this is only the scum half; if you want, I can point out the townier things which weaken the scumread there. But she's still south of null for me.

Makes sense. I still don't really get scum vibes from her this game but I can see the case on her. Still think Frog is scummier.

I'd like you to.

[KittyTacky]

Ythan is deffo tilted down, esp with the replacement.

[KittyTacky]

*town

[KittyTacky]

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[/url]

If you weren't the legend himself, I'd have questioned you putting yourself as null.

[KittyTacky]

CSF. Please. Stop. Being. Susceptible. To. Gamma. Radiation.

You're just being a dick regardless of Gamma alignment. Not cool.

[KittyTacky]

Okay and the reasons for Frogger are…?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

Basically I agree with Quiet Owl that Frog is acting weird. Borderline like a jester which makes me stumble for a moment but I think he's just scum trying to lead the game.

[KittyTacky]

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[/url]

If you weren't the legend himself, I'd have questioned you putting yourself as null.

Do you ever feel like you just don’t know yourself?

Yeah mood lol.

[KittyTacky]

But unlike Quiet is doing now I don't think he's just aggravated town. He's scum for those reasons. or 3p.

[KittyTacky]

If he's jest he deserves the win. /hj

[KittyTacky]

Reaction testing all game?

[KittyTacky]

there;s always someone who scumreads me for asking questions. what if i told you i always do that?

I can believe it. You're more null then I guess.

thats funny. i gut wanted to townread her for that.

I'm not feeling it. Do you have some kind of meta reason for your read?

Why do you believe tris (my prior slot) but assign me busy work?

@Kitty: No just this test of pushing me. I haven’t read the game.

He acted like this towards Gamma too earlier.

[KittyTacky]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

You're being an ass here. Back off.

So much for the "Quiet" Owl.

Are you trying to piss off the thread here? *raised eyebrow*

What is your point here?

This is what I mean by borderline jester.

[KittyTacky]

i assume that a jester!frog here wins when dead, in which case the course of action here is probably to ignore him completely until we have reason to suspect that he's a different sort of scum?

mcmenno mentioned having a role that interferes with investigatives so i assume that if true that's a counter to someone else's role. would be a convenient way of resolving the frog conundrum.

The problem with leaving a jest alive is that they can derail discussions and make it hard to scumhunt. I'm still not sure if he's actually jester or just scum acting like jester tho.

I hope there's a vig.

[KittyTacky]

I wonder where Ythan is?

currently the Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, and Ythan slots are waiting for replacements

Not to be that guy, but does anyone TR these slots?

Ythan is a townlean for me.

[KittyTacky]

Vibes, it's weak but I haven't found a reason to scumread her slot. But we didn't interact much and she didn't post much so I'll wait for a replacement to really try to understand that slot.

[KittyTacky]

i assume that a jester!frog here wins when dead, in which case the course of action here is probably to ignore him completely until we have reason to suspect that he's a different sort of scum?

mcmenno mentioned having a role that interferes with investigatives so i assume that if true that's a counter to someone else's role. would be a convenient way of resolving the frog conundrum.

The problem with leaving a jest alive is that they can derail discussions and make it hard to scumhunt. I'm still not sure if he's actually jester or just scum acting like jester tho.

I hope there's a vig.

Why aren't you engaging on any of the reasons people have put forth for Frogs being town & just repeating that Frogs is scum ad nauseam?

They did not convince me, simple as.

[KittyTacky]

Had to look up what psychiatrist does. Frog should have claimed.

Since neither of the kills were particularly scummy, the psychiatrist probably wasn't a red herring and so we have a SK. Fantastic.

[KittyTacky]

Could just be multiball ig.

[KittyTacky]

I do not remember in the slightest what happened day 1

Frog took center of attention.

I think it's completely his fault for playing like a jester.

[KittyTacky]

This is baseless setup spec and outguessing the mod, but I guess there's one single token VT.

[KittyTacky]

Gamma is town.

@Gimli just wait until you get to the later pages, Frogster started out OK but then started talking nonsense.

[KittyTacky]

Gamma is town.

@Gimli just wait until you get to the later pages, Frogster started out OK but then started talking nonsense.

I'm sorry for filling the thread with my BS, but I remember an old mafia player who once said that playing a gameday in mafia is like painting a picture. you can do a wonderful painting the entire day, but if in the end you screw it up, and the painting is ruined, that means you're scum and you need to be killed.

that man said that when he was scum, and he managed a miselim that day.

In this case it's more like making a sketch and then scrawling all over it with crayons instead of coloring it in.

[KittyTacky]

I don't want and apple macbook, I already have meat

I am a little confused.

[KittyTacky]

But I think I unfverstand.

[KittyTacky]

*understand

[KittyTacky]

I don't really agree that psychiatrist is powerful PR, but it points we have Serial Killer.

Let me run you through the process I have.

We know there was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrists specifically cure Serial Killers.

We have two nightkills last night, indicating a serial killer was active last night.

We have a duo, Titus + imaginality, who have claimed masons, but whose play does not match that of town masons.

My conclusion is Titus and imaginality are likely a serial killer duo, who likely could have been converted into a vigilante duo had Frogsterking targeted them.

I would happily vote imaginality as a result. There's arguments to be made on holding back. Leashing the serial killers is potentially viable; the theory of them being 3p, while sound, is not 100% definitive, and usually it's better to hunt for scum than to hunt for 3p. I feel a discussion is warranted, but will happily park my vote on anyone with a high chance of being nontown. What type of scum we eliminate is less important; eliminating scum regardless of type is the goal.

Um. On what you builded this theory

835, 871, 967, 1109, 960 from MT (MT died last night and is conftown), 1185 from Prince, 1187 from Prince, 1194 from Prince, 1197 from Prince.

imaginality's play has been suspect from the onset. The only reason he wasn't put under pressure was Titus covering for him. Titus herself covered for imaginality in a suspect way; instead of defending him by play and only resorting to breadcrumbs, she went straight to breadcrumbs and didn't even try to argue anything else. Their play doesn't match that of actual masons.

Then, we have two kills last night, one of them being Morning Tweet, a player who was suspect of them. Two kills suggests serial killer.
Frogsterking was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrist suggests serial killer.
By mod meta, it is quite likely for there to be a serial killer duo as that is a known role which xyzzy would both be familiar with and likely to employ.

Everything fits.

Strange theory.

Would the scum kill have been blocked or healed in that case? Or would a "serial killer duo" be basically a 2-person scumteam with 1 kill?

[KittyTacky]

VOTE: Gamma

Guess since it’s out there I am a fruit vendor and sent fruit to Ranger.

Based on something I got from the mod I had suspected mod error but now I can’t verify.

*sigh*

I am just going to hit random people with fruit now.

Can we please kill Gamma now?

OK I will claim now to not look sus later.

I am a Town Multitasking Odd Night Fruit Vendor Even Night Vegetable Vendor 1-Shot Meat Vendor neighbor

I enfruited Quiet Owl and enmeated Titus.

That's why I said I was confused about Elements' post. I tried to crumb it a few posts ago (un

fv

erstand) but meh, I am a weak role anyways.

Unless there is a second meat vendor and Titus didn't claim her meat receipt, there is some kind of night action redirector.

[KittyTacky]

imo outing that last bit of info is worth it and +town.

[KittyTacky]

Before someone important gets got.

[KittyTacky]

Ranger town even if I don't agree with her takes fully.

[KittyTacky]

...or there's a second meat vendor and Titus is ascetic SK.

VOTE: Titus

[KittyTacky]

Yeah it adds up, I'd thought town would have claimed a meating.

[KittyTacky]

Gamma gets super emotional as town.

[KittyTacky]

Never played with an encryptor before.

What does an encryptor do?

Give access to a daytalk PT.

[KittyTacky]

Second meat vendor, come out if you exist.

[KittyTacky]

I'm checking with the mod now. I didn't get any meat but I didn't get any daystart pm either. Possible the mod forgot.

However, it makes zero sense Gamma was pushing me as town and Kitty comes in with this claim.

@Mod confirm this.

VOTE: KittyTacky

Unless I was rolestopped or Aliened, KittyTacky is scum.

Also, multitasking I don't believe is mentioned post 1.

How? Redirectors are a thing, this isn't a normal.

I don't want and apple macbook, I already have meat

I am a little confused.

But I think I unfverstand.

*understand

The "unfverstand" is likely not a crumb, given it was corrected AND that Kitty had zero to say in response to Math's claim. He didn't out when it would be a CC.

1. I corrected it so it wasn't obvious that it was a crumb. How does that make it less believable as a crumb? It's still a "typo".
2. I don't think CCs of inconsequential roles matter in a bastard game like this, and I think Math is town so I didn't want to antagonize them.

[KittyTacky]

Math, do you have any qualifiers beyond being a FV?

[KittyTacky]

I claimed soon after I saw Math claim during my catchup because it would be scummier to claim 5 days later or some shit.

[KittyTacky]

I feel a true, town fruit vendor would have eyeballed your crumbs and been very suspicious.

Also, Math is mostly correct. KittyTacky claim did not come in Kitty's next post but it is plausible for a catch up.

I would rather sort things out.

This is a bastard game and mechanics failing redirection and things I would expect.

I also would expect mod errors or complexity.

We can talk things out slowly and patiently.

No mod error. I checked. I got no meat.

Then unless Ranger's theory is correct and you're SKs with imaginality then there was a redirector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[KittyTacky]

I disagree in this instance. They'd want someone unquestionably town to claim the vend. Plus KittyTacky said the vend was weak, which would confirm Elements as town. Therefore, you'd need to look elsewhere for scum on the McMenno wagon.

Oh weak role I think that means in terms of power not role?

@Kitty do you mean the weak modifier? Or just that it’s low power?

I meant literally weak. As in my role is shit. If I was Weak (as in the modifier) I'd have included that in my fullclaim. Sorry for the confusion.

[KittyTacky]

I feel a true, town fruit vendor would have eyeballed your crumbs and been very suspicious.

Also, Math is mostly correct. KittyTacky claim did not come in Kitty's next post but it is plausible for a catch up.

I would rather sort things out.

This is a bastard game and mechanics failing redirection and things I would expect.

I also would expect mod errors or complexity.

We can talk things out slowly and patiently.

No mod error. I checked. I got no meat.

Then unless Ranger's theory is correct and you're SKs with imaginality then there was a redirector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pretty clear this confirms weak.

No it doesn't?

[KittyTacky]

I wouldn't have scumread you on mech if I was Weak.

[KittyTacky]

@furtive: I didn't really see it as a miller claim + I do townread miller claims (even though my days of mafia are way behind me now for me to tell you what I generally townread). I think the phrasing is very specific and not particularly likely to be coming from scum, and I think elements' solve of the slot is sharp in a towny way.

The phrasing was the opposite of specific - my role can interfere with investigatives or something.

McMenno is basically saying don't check me

I think Elements is town if McMenno is scum so we can agree on that

the phrasing is very specific, like, 'dont hit me with investigatives in general' is a very specific thing to say. it's not a miller claim as there are more investigatives than just cop

There's apparently Miller variant that affects every incest.

Tracker sees it visit the night kill, Watcher sees it if it watches a slot that gets killed, Rolecop sees it as a scummy role, etc. Could be that?

[KittyTacky]

INVEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KittyTacky]

Not sure what to expect here. As someone who knows Titus, would you expect that it's likely for her to crumb in her very first post as scum and lock herself in to a specific claim?

There's not a lot of benefit that I can see to claiming suicide bomber as scum even in the event that it's true, because the role can only be confirmed by the player's death.

I have done that but the scum roles were confirmed and loud.

As for the unalive bomber, I am dead n4 unless docced or blocked.

So you're a compulsive Self-oof Bomber?

[KittyTacky]

Why didn't you claim it during the original claim.

[KittyTacky]

Think she means she's going for it one way or another, which is somewhat fair given the circumstances of only having one night to do it.

Then why did Math assume random odds?

[KittyTacky]

Titus, even if scum, is a giant waste of an elim right now when she's likely dead on N4. And if she's still alive come D5? We just start asking questions! It's, really that simple. You don't eliminate a vigilante because "Oh, but they could get town instead of scum!", y'know? Scrutinize her all you want now, in the chance she survives (which could be because of any number of things, town doc or block, scum doc or block, other shenanigans, all of which could mislead us), because then hey, we can present a proper case on if she is or isn't scum. But right now? ALOT better to focus on another slot.

Urgh.

If she's a town Self-oof Bomber, she should just not bomb unless the town has determined someone to be likely scum.

[KittyTacky]

Self-oof Bomber is a negative utility role.

[KittyTacky]

Just play like a named townie unless 2 scum get outed D4.

[KittyTacky]

imo doing otherwise is kinda throwy.

[KittyTacky]

All those assuming the redirection is from scum, why?

If the redirector is town they should come out to clear this up, play depends on this.

[KittyTacky]

Or atl crumb it.

[KittyTacky]

I probably should have found a different video or even gif. Extreme apologies for any offensive content. Please don’t ban me. :/

...what did it have?

[KittyTacky]

There's apparently Miller variant that affects every incest.

Tracker sees it visit the night kill, Watcher sees it if it watches a slot that gets killed, Rolecop sees it as a scummy role, etc. Could be that?

I want to know, as it might provide a positive use later on. Particularly if it's not just negative alignment but roleblock or vanillize or something.

What? Did you quote the wrong post? Am I having a brainfart?

[KittyTacky]

UNVOTE:

I'll give the last few pages a reskim tomorrow, I'm recovering from some trauma IRL.

[KittyTacky]

Jesus ffs

VOTE: Quiet Owl

Just get something moving that's acceptable.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

Beep beep I'm a sheep.

Gonna vote once I finish my catchup to not accidentally hammer while there is discussion going on.

[KittyTacky]

This one currently refuses to vote on imaginality or Titus but it's willing to do Owl.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

In the meanwhile, I want Ranger's yoga instructor. Arguing an unalive bomber is a serial killer is so stretching Ranger might as well be Mrs. Fantastic.

I am not arguing that's a real power a serial killer has.

I'm arguing that a similar power is something a serial killer would have at their disposal, and the self-bomber would be a town fakeclaim version of it.

It guesses...? But like, it feels like a really really weird claim to make as SK. Being alive after N4 would seriously jeopardize both her own survival and the survival of her hypothetical SK duo partner imaginality. It's a house of cards-level gambit where if anything goes wrong before N4, they're both as good as dead, and if she lives come D5, there will be a very large amount of scrutiny against her and imaginality that cannot easily be brushed off as "Oh yeah, I must've been doc'd." without literally outing a doctor which could be Pretty Bad depending on the situation. It's just way too risky for any kind of scum duo to do. Hell, it's risky even as town because mafia could have who knows what tools to frame her for being suspiciously alive and then gets dogpiled. Of course you can call this something along the lines of arguing "too scum to be scum" but in general this one is rather confident that this play is much more town than it is scum.

Why is it so scummy for a Self-oof Bomber to not use their power? Nobody answered me last time I pointed that out. Unless scum gets outed that day it's -town to use it.

[KittyTacky]

I know I wouldn't.

[KittyTacky]

or. hear me out, I know this is not too much fun: let's flip NM. it's a dead slot, and all wagons are garbage.

I disagree with you on QO.

And flipping NM is essentially random. I'm not voting when there's someone I feel is more likely scum than random.

[KittyTacky]

I'm recovering from some trauma IRL.

Stay safe. <3

Thanks. <3

[KittyTacky]

Ultimate locktown.

[KittyTacky]

Quiet Owl, claim or die.

If you claim now you have a chance to not die.

If you don't claim you are guaranteed to die.

[KittyTacky]

And waste the town's time, which could be spent hanging someone you don't 100% know is town (if you are town).

[KittyTacky]

Can we flip Gimli for being boring?

I think Gimlinhas actually engaged with the thread at some points at least but I guess HE'S the boring one tho?

He's engaging with the thread in a boring manner

As oppose to running the same gimmick for years

He feeds off your rage.

[KittyTacky]

Kitten probs town.

VOTE: Quiet Owl.

[KittyTacky]

He feeds off your rage.

nobody cares about NM and he still plays and trolls every single game. what makes me a little sad is that you punished the top poster on d1, on a big game where you just flip scummy UTRs and people not playing first, and you're still gonna give a dead slot a pass on d2 and hope someone wastes a vig on it, while punishing another person who's actually playing.

it's bad and y'all should feel bad

I'd rather kill someone actually scummy.

[KittyTacky]

I don't care if NM dies or lives, I just don't focus on him.

[KittyTacky]

When there is a wagon I can actually sheep behind.

[KittyTacky]

I want a tldr

I'm realising I don't myself know the full claims. What was that meat thing? I asked but no one answered

On the meat thing, and correct me if it's wrong, isn't it that Math was a multitasking FV one-shot MeatVendor (and also VegetableVendor) that vended meat to Titus, but instead the meat got to Elements so we suspect a driver of some sort?

I am fruit vendor (modifiers if any redacted) who sent one to Ranger
Kitty is the one you’re thinking of that hit Titus I believe

Been up all night and about to sleep.

Yeah I gave fruit to Quiet Owl (who I didn't see claim it?) and meat to Titus.

[KittyTacky]

This one currently refuses to vote on imaginality or Titus but it's willing to do Owl.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

In the meanwhile, I want Ranger's yoga instructor. Arguing an unalive bomber is a serial killer is so stretching Ranger might as well be Mrs. Fantastic.

I am not arguing that's a real power a serial killer has.

I'm arguing that a similar power is something a serial killer would have at their disposal, and the self-bomber would be a town fakeclaim version of it.

It guesses...? But like, it feels like a really really weird claim to make as SK. Being alive after N4 would seriously jeopardize both her own survival and the survival of her hypothetical SK duo partner imaginality. It's a house of cards-level gambit where if anything goes wrong before N4, they're both as good as dead, and if she lives come D5, there will be a very large amount of scrutiny against her and imaginality that cannot easily be brushed off as "Oh yeah, I must've been doc'd." without literally outing a doctor which could be Pretty Bad depending on the situation. It's just way too risky for any kind of scum duo to do. Hell, it's risky even as town because mafia could have who knows what tools to frame her for being suspiciously alive and then gets dogpiled. Of course you can call this something along the lines of arguing "too scum to be scum" but in general this one is rather confident that this play is much more town than it is scum.

Why is it so scummy for a Self-oof Bomber to not use their power? Nobody answered me last time I pointed that out. Unless scum gets outed that day it's -town to use it.

Titus has said she's pretty much going for it regardless, so of course the expectation is that she'll, true to her word, blow someone up and explode in turn. If she survives, that raises questions of how and why. It's not about if using or not using it is scummy.

"I saw the arguments against using the role and reconsidered"

[KittyTacky]

Quiet Owl, claim or die.

If you claim now you have a chance to not die.

If you don't claim you are guaranteed to die.

....................... that's why they're probably town for not wanting to claim....

Town doesn't want to die either. Not claiming is dumb and borderline throwing as either alignment.

[KittyTacky]

I REFUSE TO FLIP NOT_MAFIA

Yes because he's convenient cover for distracting people from you.

YES

And if this is the explanation, that frankly smells bad

Welcome to Enchant.

[KittyTacky]

I'm not going there as a matter of policy, I'm going there as a matter of gamestate + I find all three of them scummy tbh. enchant does not feel like town at all, mcmenno showing up to go 'omg im not wagonz' is something that deserves a dayvig, and NM started getting a little survivalistic once we tried forming a wagon around him. gun to head they're all scum.

tbh in Warrior Cats I was a bit like NM here, in other games too. Sometimes I just find it hard to engage unless my life is at stake, then I wake up.

[KittyTacky]

I don't think waking up once pushed is scummy per se.

[KittyTacky]

IMAGINE I AM VIGILANTE

Is this a claim?

[KittyTacky]

Me omw to finish this catchup before someone hammers.


I think kitten is town tho.

[KittyTacky]

IMAGINE I AM VIGILANTE

I doubt two vigilantes here with only two deaths last night.

I kinda think either multiball or single ball SK.

I think mechanically SK is more likely if it’s the Titus/imagine pair, so I am thinking multiball unless someone actually claims some of the kills.

Vig might have holstered tho.

[KittyTacky]

Though Enchant isn't the type of player to not shoot N1 I think lol.

[KittyTacky]

I'm not going there as a matter of policy, I'm going there as a matter of gamestate + I find all three of them scummy tbh. enchant does not feel like town at all, mcmenno showing up to go 'omg im not wagonz' is something that deserves a dayvig, and NM started getting a little survivalistic once we tried forming a wagon around him. gun to head they're all scum.

I think NM is the most likely scum of them all but I think they’re all good dayvig candidates.

McMenno I think is town because of how the wagons formed and it would be nice to have that confirmation.
Enchant never feels like town to me except when scum.
NM though I feel is most likely to hit scum based on the resistance.

If I had a dayvig I would do NM but any of the three are understandable.

I also find it weird I have been loud when I have been sleeping most of the last 48 hours

Enchant is a Day Miller regardless of alignment.

[KittyTacky]

A package is on delivery! Looks like gremlins attacked the MacBook. Going to hopefully be fixed soon.

no worries, i got the package. unless i wasn't meant to get it? worry then, i guess.

First time was here.

Ah I didn't pick up on that.

[KittyTacky]

That means Titus is likely ascetic, or she was the one redirectorized, and I didn't get somehow redirected unless the redirection only affects one action? My head hurts.

[KittyTacky]

I just don't really feel McMenno.

[KittyTacky]

KA's behavior is town imo, especially their ATE seems like town ATE. But they should full claim if they want to live and not faceplant.

[KittyTacky]

I just finished a Normal game where a townie refused to claim and town didn't lose only because of great work by protectives and a weird setup.

[KittyTacky]

UNVOTE:

okay

who do you think is scum, kitty? furtive, how about you? who are we limming?

QO is the most likely imo?

[KittyTacky]

That means Titus is likely ascetic, or she was the one redirectorized, and I didn't get somehow redirected unless the redirection only affects one action? My head hurts.

Sorry, isn't it that Element got meat? So it should be the case that your meat managed to get to Elements, which would point to a redirect rather than Titus being ascetic. What's wrong with e.g. bus driver Titus<->Elements, your meat arrived to the wrong adress and your fruit to the correct one unimpeded?
(There is also the possibility that scum may have a combined Rolestopper RoleWatcher and that Elements is scum and did some theatrics to make us believe in a BusDriver kind of thing, but idk this seems the less likely of the two)

Oh yeah I forgot about Element.

I was away for the game for a small while and got into a Moment IRL so I'm sorry.

[KittyTacky]

Loyal weak vigilante?

Would it still die if it hits scum or is it a complete troll role? Moot point now tho.

[KittyTacky]

Ranger, did anything happen to you this night?

Also what's a death innocent neighbor?

[KittyTacky]

ugh.

[KittyTacky]

I think Ranger successfully ensheeped me on KA but idk if they are scum or wrong town. I have vehemently defended scum as town before.

[KittyTacky]

I sent you a vegetable. Did anyone else get a vegetable?

If nobody claims veggie'd then there are 2 options:
- I was RBed
- Ranger is ascetic

[KittyTacky]

If it's the former then RBer claims are scummy, why would you roleblock a vendor.

[KittyTacky]

I assure you I'm not ascetic. I would've claimed that D1.

Either a scum redirector pogged (see Titus D1) or you're just lying. Or the mod lied but it seems almost too cruel even for a bastard game.

VOTE: Ranger sorry

Also yeah there are 2 vendors, me and Math.

[KittyTacky]

While I suspect Ranger, roleblock on a claimed loyal vendor makes sense.

(I did not claim loyal.)

UNVOTE:

FOS: Ranger

[KittyTacky]

Okay! Nevermind about Gimli or Lycan. I cannot see a world where either are scum. Ranger looks a whole lot worse and everyone else probably wants my blood now And I deserve it.

Okay so they were a... Compulsive... Disloyal... Doctor...

Okay... So they were a doctor, that used their ability every night regardless of user input, but the doctor ability ONLY worked on townies? So a negative utility for the mafia? Did they get to control who they targeted at all or was it random? If it was random that'd be annoying for them because they could target who they were trying to kill. If it wasn't random it'd be useless because I'd just target some townie that we weren't touching that night.

I thought my role seemed odd.

Anyway, who are we voting for Ranger today Gimli?

Nothing in the role indicates it being random.

I think it might have some utility in getting a vig hanged? But that's a weird gambit.

[KittyTacky]

Kill: Ultimate Gamer

If I die, UG isn't mafia. Could be some other evil, but isn't mafia.

[KittyTacky]

well UG as conftown is good I suppose

Unless SK (and Ranger's theory is wrong). But yeah I'm fine locktowning them.

[KittyTacky]

309/310, though empathetic, I feel demonstrate knowledge Gamma was town, since it feels like the "if Gamma is scum" was added as an afterthought to what spewed knowledge Gamma was town. (I feel terrible for essentially saying basic human empathy is +scum, but it's the specific wording/post order which gives me those vibes, not the message itself.)

Calling this out specifically... you know how I often split thoughts between posts? It was the same thought, I'm just corrupted by Discord and press the submit button often and add additional thoughts after.

[KittyTacky]

*same thought stream

[KittyTacky]

This case on me feels like a lame turnaround after I shept the case on you and felt you not getting a vegetable was scummy.

[KittyTacky]

Jesus Christ what was that mafia massacre.

Also it's funny that NM seems to have some kind of hammering power.

[KittyTacky]

Titus should only self-oof an outed or highly likely scum as I said before. So more than 50% scum chance. Otherwise not worth it imo. But that could be different now since scum seems to be pretty fucked.

[KittyTacky]

Though what if scum team was oversized and now we have a normal ratio.

[KittyTacky]

Oh.

[KittyTacky]

BTW I vended to UltimateGamer but they died.

[KittyTacky]

Did anyone get fruit? If they did then there is a redirector.

[KittyTacky]

Of the "ToS Witch" kind.

[KittyTacky]

Yeah, if someone also got fruit then claim it now, it's important.

If nobody got fruit then there's either a RB or both Titus and Ranger are ascetic.

[KittyTacky]

Ranger has felt like quite obvious town and claimed a vig shot last night in the neighbourhood

Speaking of, to the surviving neighborhood members: do you think I should fullclaim here?

Yeah, scum knows your claim, share with the class.

[KittyTacky]

Sorry was busy IRL, catching up.

[KittyTacky]

Posting this for ease of reference:

Dead town roles:
Frogster - psychiatrist
Save the Dragons - encryptor neighbour
Morning Tweet - one-shot neapolitan neighbour
Cat Scratch Fever - even night tracker
biancospino - neighbour death innocent neighbour
GeorgeBailey - night 2 compulsive loyal weak vigilante
Elements - ???
Lycanfire - bus driver
HighPrincessErinys - even night doctor neigbour
UltimateGamer - backup innocent child

Dead scum roles:
kitten around - compulsive disloyal neighbour
McMenno - 1-shot cop immune godfather
Mathblade - fruit vendor neighbour
Enchant - multitasking gunsmith compulsive disloyal inventor

Claimed roles:
Titus - night 4 compulsive suicide bomber neighbour*
imaginality - night 5 rolecop neigbour*
Ranger - indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor [neighbour] (Ranger didn't state neigbour in the role title when claiming but obviously is in the neighbourhood)

Other:
Gimli - ?
KittyTacky - ?
Not_Mafia - ?
Quiet Owl - ?
Prince of Paterson - ?
Summon the Phoenix - ?

You missed my claim! town multitasking odd night fruit vendor even night vegetable vendor 1-shot meat vendor neighbor.

I sent meat to Titus and fruit to Quiet Owl N1, a vegetable to ranger N2, and a fruit to UltimateGamer N3.

[KittyTacky]

Sorry was busy IRL, catching up.

Quick, before your read through claim all your vends.

[KittyTacky]

This log is confusing and I have class very soon.

[KittyTacky]

Will do.

[KittyTacky]

So Kitty has double vote...?

It's not in my role? What the fuck?

[KittyTacky]

Someone doublevoterized me but I didn't get any message? Or is it just a mod error.

[KittyTacky]

I don't think whoever doublevoterized me is town anyhow. I'd think a town doublevoterizer would have given the power to someone who isn't a dumb fuck.

[KittyTacky]

SO probably scum counting on me doing a Kitty moment.

[KittyTacky]

Multitasking what precisely. They are a vendor with a one shot. They can multi task ONCE. Why give them that modifyer?

I can vend a fruit or a vegetable depending on the day evenness BUT in addition to that I can also give out meat at any time, but once. What's why multitasking.

If I was an activated doublevoter I'd have claimed it.

[KittyTacky]

I sent to Titus again like asked but they died.

[KittyTacky]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

There is no reason for me as scum to come into this day phase, while being the only confident townread of yours, and do this. If I were scum I could have easily gotten an elimination on Not_Mafia or KittyTacky.

I'm also not pushing you. I doubt I would vote for you. I believe I have an obligation to share the message that I received.

The fact that there were two messages (received in the same PM, but clearly marked as separate) is part of what made me doubt that this is just a scum mailman or something messing with me. That would only arrive as one message. This seems to be a clearly defined power where the message comes in two parts. That makes it less easy for me to dismiss it as clearly faked by scum.

I get your obligation if you are actually town, but the fact is you're sitting here in an ELO situation and instead of talking to me about who you think is scum between Kitty and NM you're grilling me on a thing you received as two different messages that no living player as of last night could have done without being scum.

And your argument is that a dead player could have sent it. Well, QO made 0 mention to this ability and probably would have claimed it while they were alive, don't you think? I think that QO as a townie would 100% have claimed it, so when a townie GOT THAT MESSAGE they would know who it was from.

So not QO.

And then Bianco, why didn't they use it in days before this? And if it's just them, why is it two split messages?

Let's say I trust you, because I do or at least I want to believe my read on you was correct. Let's say you're telling the truth, and let's then argue for the sake of argument it isn't NM or KT (even though KT has claimed multitasking and could have theoretically sent 2 different messages with 2 different abilities and still killed so that seems to explain it being 2 messages?)

The only other option would be something related to the ??? phase right? Like 3 scum died out of NOWHERE and no mechanic explains it. Maybe it's a game mechanic then, and in exchange for suddenly being dead on day 4 they get to each send a message to influence the game anonymously.

So they know I see you as town and if they send this to you they can try and make a fake story to tell us both down this river.

One question: how is me claiming multitasking relevant. If I was scum fakeclaiming I'd not claim MT.

[KittyTacky]

Like, I am asking you in a Bastard game, in ELO, to trust your eyes and your reads.

It's one of NM or KT at this point. I want them to cross vote and I want to discuss it with you, because right now I'm leaning KT.

Are you sure you want me to vote NM? If NM is town, mafia could hammer.

[KittyTacky]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

The Usurper phrasing specifically is what made me question things. I don't think you'd be standard mafia. If you're scum then it's third party and your slot needed to kill the mafia godfather and be the last one remaining.

As for the other two, I've read KittyTacky as town by play, but it's believable that he could be a serial killer, since that often allows one to play as uninformed. I think Not_Mafia does have some mafia team equity with his hammer to save Ranger, even if Ranger may have genuinely not wanted him to.

I lean towards KittyTacky as well. I think him falling off in presence as the game has progressed is not a good sign.

I fell off in presence because I was busy IRL. I have a life.

[KittyTacky]

So Kitty has double vote...?

It's not in my role? What the fuck?

Someone doublevoterized me but I didn't get any message? Or is it just a mod error.

I don't think whoever doublevoterized me is town anyhow. I'd think a town doublevoterizer would have given the power to someone who isn't a dumb fuck.

SO probably scum counting on me doing a Kitty moment.

These posts do seem like a genuine reaction to me.

Multitasking what precisely. They are a vendor with a one shot. They can multi task ONCE. Why give them that modifyer?

I can vend a fruit or a vegetable depending on the day evenness BUT in addition to that I can also give out meat at any time, but once. What's why multitasking.

If I was an activated doublevoter I'd have claimed it.

I sent to Titus again like asked but they died.

The only thing that's concerning to me is the lack of any reads in these posts, or even an idea of what KT is thinking.

-Summon

Well I think you're town and so is Paterson. NM is most likely scum. But this game has been very hard for me to read.

[KittyTacky]

I just don't want to vote NM until EOD because it's equivalent to ending the day right then and there and I want discussion.

[KittyTacky]

Actually.

What if NM is some kind of scum special-case inventor that gives out vote-related abilities, and the ability to give himself stuff? He gave himself the hammer and me a double vote, counting on me to mess up.

[KittyTacky]

Not sure why scum KittyTacky claims multitasking when he could just not ever vend meat. Actually, I suppose so that he could claim he vented meat to the kill target if he ever gets tracked or watched.

Why haven't you vended meat, KittyTacky?

I vended meat to Titus D1 but she didn't get it. I don't know what happened.

viewtopic.php?p=13632265&hilit=meat#p13632265

[KittyTacky]

I fullclaimed there.

[KittyTacky]

I will vote NM after people respond to my post.

[KittyTacky]

But yeah, KT, I am 100% positive I want you to cross vote with NM here and to do it when you next come online and see this.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[KittyTacky]

Oh it works that way.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Not_Mafia

[KittyTacky]

Actually wait. In case NM is town and I'm wrong.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
UNVOTE: Not_Mafia

[KittyTacky]

(One vote. I will throw the second there eventually.)

[KittyTacky]

Actually no wait the plan wouldn't work then.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Not_Mafia

Two votes. If we lose now I'm sorry.

[KittyTacky]

GG WP all! I had my suspicions about your tone, Phoenix, but I was successfully sheeped and decided to take my chances with NM.

Sorry town for losing the game for you.

[KittyTacky]

What were the full roles of Prince and KT?

I did not lie about my role.

[KittyTacky]

Did I suck as much as I think I do?