Open 102- Lover Mafia (Game Over) before 712

[SilverPhoenix]

Vote: charter

Timestamp...?

[SilverPhoenix]

I'm fine with a vote, and won't back down at all. I think it is a very realistic possibility that SP is either buddies with Sekinj (in which case hammering is an insta-loss) or else that he's Scum with someone else and knows hammering likely leads to him being lynched tomorrow, losing.

Jesus, what a false dichotomy. I'm not lynching someone on the first page no matter who it is. Weak arguments = weak reason to make arguments.

FOS: SensFan

[SilverPhoenix]

Hey look, even more reluctance to vote! Put your vote where your mouth is.

If that's the case,

Unvote, Vote: Sensfan

.

I think you would have said something bad about my comment even if I voted for you.

[SilverPhoenix]

Question: What is the timestamp issue? Were the lovers posting at the same time or right after the mod or what? I read some of the other Lover's game, but I can't find what the issue is.

Maybe I did; maybe I didn't.

Oooh, mysterious. Why do you have something to hide about trying to roll sekinj?

What matters is that SP didn't do it. Didn't even vote me until I called him on it.

What does this suggest? That you are my lover? That I'm actually

careful

with my vote?
Not impressed either way.

[SilverPhoenix]

Maybe. Let's put it this way, do you think I have more motivation as Scum to call for a page 1 hammer than as Town?

Under standard situations, I would say Town because a town lynch would result in your own lynch as scum, but in reality, that's full of WIFOM. That's because the town is obviously in LYLO, and the scum could pin up the main proponent of the townie lynch, get one person to vote for town and hammer.
All in all, the town gets two shots, and there was no way that I would leave it to a 33% chance that sekinj was scum.

I have no votes on me

You talking about then (when you noted me not hammering sekinj) or now?

I suggest you concede the point, or I will meta you and 95% likely bust you for lying.

Go right ahead. I find myself almost never voting for lynched players. Check my wiki for my newbie game, Mini Normal 682, and Mini Theme 693 for all the times I am not involved in the lynch. I'm not saying that it is a good thing, but I do it a lot, so consider it a meta.

[SilverPhoenix]

You are Scum looking for a quick lynch. You don't want to hammer me. Your buddy doesn't even have the balls to put a first vote on me, so you are trying to get me to hammer myself. Failing that, you wanted me replaced.

1. My vote was the second. ZazieR voted for you first. Technical, but precise enough to show you are twisting the blatant facts.
2. Repeating the fact that I am scum refusing to hammer my buddy isn't going to make it truer. If I hadn't posted and say ZazieR did a random vote, you would have done the same to her. The fact was that you are supporting a true, yet weak argument to suggest I'm scum. As I said before, scum make weak arguments because they can't make any other ones.
3. How can she be looking for a quicklynch AND not be voting for anyone? And why is it okay for you to push a lynch on page 1 and not sekinj on page 2? You can't say I am scummy for

not

voting for a superquicklynch and say that sekinj is scummy for wanting a quicklynch. Can't have it both ways.

[SilverPhoenix]

I suggest you concede the point, or I will meta you and 95% likely bust you for lying.

Go right ahead. I find myself almost never voting for lynched players. Check my wiki for my newbie game, Mini Normal 682, and Mini Theme 693 for all the times I am not involved in the lynch. I'm not saying that it is a good thing, but I do it a lot, so consider it a meta.

Are you quite certain you do not want me to meta the fact you are defending your not voting for me?

No, I do. I want you to meta me for this if you really want to. I'm just saying it is more of a personal preference than anything.

I am confused as well about the "I endorse my lynch" comment. sekinj took it too far by saying he should be replaced, but the point is that there is no sensible explanation for it.

[SilverPhoenix]

SP, I have a question for you: If you can randomly vote someone for having an unpronouncable username, why can you not vote someone for something you consider scummy?

How are those two related? They aren't, really.
In one of my current games (I'm dead in it), there was another guy exactly like you (iLord) who had a problem with me not putting my vote where my mouth was. I really don't see why when and who I vote for when I make arguments is your business. Just because I find one thing about a player scummy, it doesn't mean that I think he is scum, cut and dry. The tunnelvision that both you and iLord have simply looks ridiculous when you step back from it.

1. Wow, I make a absolutely minor, irrelevant, inconsequential mistake and I am 'twisting the blatant facts'?

You used it your "irrelevant" fact as fuel to the fire: that I "didn't have the balls to put a first vote on you". I just needed strong language of my own to set the facts straight.

2. Of course I would have. Random lynches favour the Town...

I do not agree. Although it is more likely to hit scum and win in this setup, it doesn't help the town because I'll be damned if I can't use logic to figure out who are scum. I also think that you are trying to come up with a explanation after the fact as to why you even pushed for a random lynch in the first place. Why didn't you say this before?

3. Because she doesn't want to be seen on the wagon. There is a difference in the wagons. Sek's was random, mine is Scum-driven.

Just reinforcing your tunnelvision I see. Still doesn't mean it has any correctness at all.

What I don't get is that you say a random lynch is better for the town, yet you still want to lynch sekinj for being scummy. The fact is that the lynch that you say is "random" clearly isn't anymore (as both you and charter have offered non-random reasons for your votes), and attempting to pass it off as such will clearly give you an alibi D2. I'm not buying your "random" wagon mess any more, as the time is clearly up for random. The fact that a random lynch would help the town is irrelevant, as the game has moved on.

[SilverPhoenix]

Can I get some of the crack you are on which has you seeing things this way? Seriously, if you are willing to vote for someone having a funny name, you should ALWAYS 100% be willing to vote (in the "random") stage for someone doing ANYTHING EVEN MINUTELY SCUMMY.

Yes, in the random voting stage, I am willing to

VOTE

for any random reason. However, I am

NOT GOING TO LYNCH

for any random reason. There is a huge difference between the two, and like I said, I'll be damned if I

EVER

do that.
There are levels of scumminess. The higher ones deserve votes, the lower ones don't IMO. LIKE I ALREADY SAID, it shouldn't make one bit of difference where my vote is to you. You don't control my vote, I do. Stop trying to enforce your black-and-white view of scumminess on me and saying I'm scummy for not sharing it.

[SilverPhoenix]

Can I get some of the crack you are on which has you seeing things this way? Seriously, if you are willing to vote for someone having a funny name, you should ALWAYS 100% be willing to vote (in the "random") stage for someone doing ANYTHING EVEN MINUTELY SCUMMY.

Yes, in the random voting stage, I am willing to

VOTE

for any random reason. However, I am

NOT GOING TO LYNCH

for any random reason. There is a huge difference between the two, and like I said, I'll be damned if I

EVER

do that.
There are levels of scumminess. The higher ones deserve votes, the lower ones don't IMO. LIKE I ALREADY SAID, it shouldn't make one bit of difference where my vote is to you. You don't control my vote, I do. Stop trying to enforce your black-and-white view of scumminess on me and saying I'm scummy for not sharing it.

Explain how putting a first (oh, I mean second. Damn, that ruins the whole argument right there...) vote on someone means lynching them.

I was talking about me not lynching sekinj, which is still the root of your argument.

[SilverPhoenix]

I commit something you consider rather scummy, and you think its normal not to vote me?

I noticed this during an overview, and it is in reference to this.

I'm fine with a vote, and won't back down at all. I think it is a very realistic possibility that SP is either buddies with Sekinj (in which case hammering is an insta-loss) or else that he's Scum with someone else and knows hammering likely leads to him being lynched tomorrow, losing.
...
Hey look, even more reluctance to vote! Put your vote where your mouth is.

Now, you say that I call you "rather scummy", where that is not the case.

Jesus, what a false dichotomy. I'm not lynching someone on the first page no matter who it is. Weak arguments = weak reason to make arguments. FOS: SensFan

Call me being technical, but an FOS is a really wimpy way to say someone is scummy (which you point out in your comment above). The fact that you use "

rather

scummy" instead of "scummy" makes me think that you actually recognize that there are levels of scumminess like I do. Additionally, the only thing at that point that I said about your attack on me for not lynching sekinj was that it was a weak argument to make, yet you consider that argument as "rather scummy". Calling an argument weak and calling an argument scummy is two different things that are related, but not directly correlated. Your evaluation on my position against you is mistaken, as I find your case against me weak, not scummy (directly).

[SilverPhoenix]

SP I think is scum for his defending sekinj in 48-49, I'd actually be amazed if they aren't the scumteam. Tell me why would he defend sekinj, who has said virtually nothing serious and done zero scumhunting this whole game?

Criticizing one's attack of a different player doesn't mean I was defending that player (this is in reference to 48-49).

You fucking FoS'ed me. Finger of SUSPICION.

I once again quote you.

Hey look, even more reluctance to vote! Put your vote where your mouth is.

You think FOS's are weak by that quote (right?), yet you say I am creating grand accusations against your position with that FOS. If that isn't what you meant, then just say so, don't get so emotional. Tilt isn't a-ok.

[SilverPhoenix]

You criticized an attack at sekinj, why not let her do it herself?

Because criticizing a player's attack on another because it was based in faulty logic or scumminess makes sense to me. Just because it was directed at someone else, it doesn't mean that it isn't scummy and should be ignored by everyone else except the target.

Obviously possible they aren't, but I've seen a strong link between them, so I'm fine acting on that day one.

This is so ridiculous, you said yourself that you find it silly to assume I am scum simply by not lynching sekinj (which would be the only plausible link between her and I if there was one).

Yes, what you said is a possibility, but it's also very possible that someone who is town didn't want to hammer in the first ten posts. I find that much more likely. You've already decided you're not backing down, which is ridiculous.

You even agree with me that SensFan was tunnelvisioned on me at that point. I don't see how you changed your mind so easily to think that sekinj and I are lovers.

[SilverPhoenix]

Hey look, even more reluctance to vote! Put your vote where your mouth is.

You think FOS's are weak by that quote (right?), yet you say I am creating grand accusations against your position with that FOS. If that isn't what you meant, then just say so, don't get so emotional. Tilt isn't a-ok.

A fucking FoS means shit-all. You should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have an FoS on someone if you're not voting anyone unless that person is at Lynch-1. [/teach]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOh. That isn't my definition of FOS, but I understand more clearly where you are coming from. I think of it as the wiki version (not that the wiki is all knowing): It can be an implicit way of saying "I might vote for you." That is what I meant by my FOS, as I most certainly didn't mean a vote when I made it. I simply voted afterward because you asked me to.

[SilverPhoenix]

Hey look, even more reluctance to vote! Put your vote where your mouth is.

You think FOS's are weak by that quote (right?), yet you say I am creating grand accusations against your position with that FOS. If that isn't what you meant, then just say so, don't get so emotional. Tilt isn't a-ok.

A fucking FoS means shit-all. You should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have an FoS on someone if you're not voting anyone unless that person is at Lynch-1. [/teach]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOh. That isn't my definition of FOS, but I understand more clearly where you are coming from. I think of it as the wiki version (not that the wiki is all knowing): It can be an implicit way of saying "I might vote for you." That is what I meant by my FOS, as I most certainly didn't mean a vote when I made it. I simply voted afterward because you asked me to.

What's the point in that? If you have a vote availible, I'm nowhere near hammer-point, and you "might" vote me, just grow a pair and vote me.

But saying I'm scummy for not voting you is false, as it is just a personal difference between us. And I wasn't "afraid" of voting for you, I just didn't think a vote was warranted at that point. You don't need to vote for people to make points.

[SilverPhoenix]

This is kinda stream of consciousness, so bear with me.

You plan to get any meaningful reactions from someone if you don't pressure them? Good luck with that.

So should we lynch sekinj or SP (on the chance that it matters)?
...
Meh, doubt it will make any difference.
unvote, vote SP

I don't know what meaningful reactions you got with your vote on me at that point or even now (although this post may be considered so ), considering you said your vote didn't matter. So why should it matter now?

Since you give no (legit) reasons for your vote, why pick me over someone else?

I have heard you say about me at the time is that I was "scummy". No reasons, no quotes, no nothing. There isn't even any attempt of a reason, so calling out ZazieR for doing the same is hypocritical. You then passed off this as saying "you could have asked", which since it was done after the fact, makes me think you didn't even know it at all until it was mentioned.

Note that I believe flippant voting to be a minor tell. Votes are important. It is our only power, after all.

You criticized an attack at sekinj, why not let her do it herself?

After my response to this, you never mentioned again why I am scummy. It may be that it got lost in the rest, but I need you to give a good reason as to why I'm scum, as this statement I have already addressed.

Now this is the juicy part:

I don't view hammering sens as putting scum closer to winning. There's a 33% chance he's scum. 40% chance if you are like me and are not scum yourself. As Wall-E would say,
ODDS FROM THE LOINS OF JESUS.

If he's town, then tomorrow it becomes a 50% chance. There's a 50% chance of winning this game on pure luck, add scumhunting in (aka, you and SP are scum) and the odds go above 90%.

Actually, no sense in making it a sens hammer. I view sekinj as much more likely scum than sens, and my math holds true to everyone regardless of who's lynched. Might as well make it a scummy person.

unvote, vote sekinj

This is the biggest turn-around I have ever seen in a game. You first present IIoA as your primary motive to supporting a Sens lynch, and then 10 minutes later you suddenly change your mind and decide that sekinj and I are a scum pair? How could you not think of that when you made your first post? I mean, you want to lynch someone, shouldn't you start with the "scummy" people first? Instead of the one closest to the lynch? Your entire flip-flop is ridiculous, and with absolutely no prior indication that you thought of me or sekinj as scum (you even voted Sens for the whole me-not-lynching-sekinj deal!), and really am having a hard time believing that it was genuine. I think this was the biggest "following" moment that ZazieR mentioned, as scum really flow in the direction of town resentment.

Unvote, Vote: charter

Present a genuine case and I will respond. Present what you were thinking in the last posts I quoted and I might reconsider.

[SilverPhoenix]

Zazier needs to come and hammer SP. Or vote sek so rolf, charter and I can move onto him.

Looks to me like you expect them to follow you. Good luck trying to explain that tomorrow, should I be lynched. How manipulative this sounds...
Your mind is absolutely set, I guess? Was it that way even from the moment I didn't kill sekinj?

[SilverPhoenix]

Here are the possible situations of scum that I find plausible.

1. SensFan is scum

Fuck this. This should convince you dumb fuckers.

Vote: charter

.

Sorry man, its for a good cause. I'll make sure these fuckers lynch Scum tomorrow.

This isn't the thought process of a townie. You don't lynch someone who you obviously think/know is town to prove a point. Not in a two-lynch game. And by cutting off ZazieR, not allowing her to change her vote or give any new input for several days, you denied the opportunity to possibly obtain more information. It is the same reason why scum self-hammer (and why I decided not to).

Back to the lynch, you knew there was no impending deadline, yet you couldn't wait for a lynch (whether it be mine or charter's) to happen? Instead of trying to convince people voting for charter to vote for me, you lynched charter to "prove a point", while providing absolutely no information. Additionally, I am not buying the "sorry man, it's for a good cause" BS. It actually makes it sound like you

knew

he was town, and there is only one possible way to really know in this game, right?

2. One or two of the semi-lurkers (roflcopter, Zazier, sekinj to a lesser extent) are scum

These three have been for the most part ducking out of the spotlight. I think Zazier posted maybe 5 or 6 times. In this situation where there is a heated argument in between two possible townies, the scum may find it easier to just let them self-destruct the town by subtlety voting and causing a lynch. With the first missed lynch, I find this result more likely than before.

Result:

My strong feelings against SensFan is stronger by his absolutely selfish (and seemingly knowiing) hammer, and my suspicions that the scum are simply waiting for the town to self-destruct have also become a much more serious problem. SensFan makes it a simple choice, really.

Unvote, Vote: SensFan

[SilverPhoenix]

Goddammit.

[SilverPhoenix]

I had the chance to unvote, and I didn't. I terribly apologize, SensFan. My vote was a gambit to see if the scum would possibly attempt a hammer. I can assume that roflcopter was second scum, yeah?

[SilverPhoenix]

But thanks again Charter

Why thanks to charter?

[SilverPhoenix]

EDWOP: This is also my first finished game I have lost.

[SilverPhoenix]

But thanks again Charter

Why thanks to charter?

because he handed the game to them.

Well, technically you did....a hammer on D2 could have been avoided.

[SilverPhoenix]

I nevertheless personally think that four townies aren't enough in this game. Two days to lynch scum? Too many ways to go wrong.

[SilverPhoenix]

SP - You have been town in two games I have been in. This one had the worst town I have ever played with, but the other had the very best town I'd ever played with! Smile

Like I said in my vote post, I was pretty suspicious that the scum were just hiding it out, but I didn't really want to believe that.
But you are right about the C9++ game. That was easily my best game ever. I really glad it turned out the way it did, as I was just so afraid before I claimed that I would die N2. Who were you going to try to lynch D2 anyway?

[SilverPhoenix]

btw - how long were you on the open modding list?

I've been on it for about a month, for reference. At current pace though, I don't expect to mod until late January/early February.

[SilverPhoenix]

Ahh crap, forgot the game is Nightless. So scum would have to get 3 Townies lynched to win in 7p...hrm.

The main problem is on D2 with 6 players, only one townie has to vote another townie to get a scum hammer. Since the chance of that happening is 50/50 (2 scum, 2 townies), it is chances of town winning D2 drop below 40%. Of course, the hammer could be caught in the act (I almost caught it this time, but I decided against it), but if it is orchestrated enough, then the chance that town wins D2 drops to 20%, which is worse than D1.
Having three days is a problem too, though. The scum have a much less win percentages. I suggest maybe the lovers are "odd day" lovers (on D2, if one is lynched, the other doesn't die), if that makes sense.

[SilverPhoenix]

It was dumb of sens to switch like he did. It would have meant rofl had to switch...
It was dumb to pile votes on sens at the immediate start of day two, has no one played in LYLO before?

Like I said, I wasn't really anticipating that sekinj would vote for Sens, and I was unsure of how quick the hammer was going to be (as in within minutes after my vote). I mean, I knew it was obvious why she did it, this was a difficult lylo situation, and if SensFan got his way, we would still be having this conversation. sekinj's vote really made me have a hard time to unvote. I did have a chance (like 1 min), but on the chance that Sens was scum, it would have looked pretty bad on my part.

[SilverPhoenix]

Really? sek had been playing 100% driven by

emotions

and OMGUS. Which is why he was obvScum.

Fuck this. This should convince you dumb fuckers.

Vote: charter.

Sorry man, its for a good cause. I'll make sure these fuckers lynch Scum tomorrow.

A fucking FoS means shit-all. You should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have an FoS on someone if you're not voting anyone unless that person is at Lynch-1. [/teach]

You fucking FoS'ed me. Finger of SUSPICION.

since it was almost impossible from anyone's point of view that I was Scum.

And you still think that

you

could have won the game. You can't be pulling triggers at townies and expect to really mean that. By your last comment, you were going to go right after me. YOU WERE OBVIOUSLY WRONG. You expected a policy lynch (lynch the one that doesn't lynch in a lover game) to work and it failed, time to move on. And "anyone's point of view" comment was obviously bullshit, as you had

all

the remaining townies convinced you were scum. You can't expect to be so fucking manipulative and haughty as a townie and win/stay alive.