Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Aureal]

You can't mislim me day one now! Bwahahahahahaha! My plan to keep my D1 mislim rate from hitting 50% is in full force!

'k, gonna go read more than the first few pages now. WTF is with that Arko/Oc fight on pages 2/3, anyway? Did not care for Arko's posting to that point but going ALL CAPS over the word "technically", really?

[Aureal]

Page 5:

I like that Oc called out Arko's 26, because that was a ridiculous post.

Please tell me Ranger isn't going to keep up with these bracketed readlists in every post. I hated that there was one on page one and I see no purpose in smashing them into posts constantly.

Vanderscamp making pretty good posts.

[Aureal]

Page 9:

I'm largely agreeing with Oclax's reads at the bottom of the page, except I am still struggling with what I think of Oclax! So this is a bit confusing. Ranger might have a point about Oclax's phrasing- I'd more likely let it go in most cases if Oc hadn't started the game by having a fit over the implications of the word "technically" and saying that grammar is important. Although I don't actually get the feeling from their posting that it is so much an issue when making their own posts. So... Much confusion.

I can't believe Ranger thinks 26 was a great post, when it's just nonsense. I could maybe buy the one argument on Oc but these wall arguments just make me feel z_z

Aisa being a little weird about giving a townread but at least she acknowledged it probably looks a little weird?

Conveniently, I'm replacing a slot that apparently was on pretty much the same page as I am.

[Aureal]

And then I flip over to page 10 and see Oclax with Vander and Oclax in top slot and Kawaii nowhere to be found. Uhhhh? Putting someone else at just as likely to be town as you yourself are makes no sense.

[Aureal]

Page 12:

Ranger getting slightly better, at least there's some reasoning coming out that I can understand. I don't really agree with it, but I don't understand how people can work from a perspective of defaulting to everyone being town either. Yet some people do.

I feel like the "last post before bed" thing is mostly nai, possibly a bit scummy as it could generate a sense that the poster is working hard participating in this all the way until bedtime. But probably not on page two, in this case, it'd be more effective deeper in the game.

I do find it interesting though that Ranger put all that effort into describing how people are tired at the end of the day and can be weird about posts, then actually knocks Arko's townread down a few pegs because he posted a vote before bed that he took back in the morning. Gonna have to think about the implications of that, if it doesn't get addressed later.

Bella finally posted something again, omg. Zero memory of anything of theirs from earlier. This stuff on Aisa is syncing reasonably well with where I am. She's kind of flittering around and I don't like where she lands sometimes but argues it decently.

[Aureal]

Day 3 of seeking an answer to this
I'm probably being a little petty because I can barely remember why I cared so much about this in the first place, lol

Oh man I feel that so much. NVM, Aisa is town.

(I just remembered I could use my laptop which was 10 feet away and still read while laying on the couch rather than using my phone so maybe I'll quote more now.)

[Aureal]

Damn, Drew apparently reads really fast. Under 50 minutes for 14 pages? Yeah, he admitted to skipping a bunch of stuff and doing some skimming, so maybe that's why he ends up not making much sense by the end.

[Aureal]

That's right, I'm still the same limbaity badtown on a streak of dodging red role PMs.

Now I know why I feel this slot so much...

[Aureal]

Page 16:

Ranger continuing to gain credibility with the revised view of Arko. I didn't like those last posts of Arko's either and I'm not feeling Drew yet. Now her reads are pretty close to mine.

I'm fading though and will continue with the last five pages in the morning.

Aisa town
Vander likely town though I think he's good at looking town as scum from reading Death Note
AV and Bella townlean
Ranger and Oclax scumlean
Drew scum

[Aureal]

Page 16 revised after some sleep and pondering implications a bit more:

Ranger really didn't notice Oclax's post about being an English major until now? That's a bit strange- without it and the "technically" argument on page 3 I don't think I even consider Ranger's Oclax case to be possible. It just seems like the way people are likely to naturally write in this game as they're making an argument towards people who are positioning themselves as town.

I see Aisa is the one to lead the wagon on Kowah here, after indication that Bella wants that wagon. Not great- I guess I have to open up the possibility that she's scum with Ranger trying to get the wagon to divert to a target people would actually take up in time to save Ranger. I mean, she's basically already said that what she wants, just a question of why. Slight demotion for Aisa's town status. It'll be interesting to see how this actually goes down.

[Aureal]

Page 17:

Oh my, Kowah moved their vote off Ranger who was set up to get plurality limmed to vote Oclax instead. Not a very self-preserving move! Drew vote to shift the lim to Kowah is bad. Why is Oclax now willing to hammer there? Stay tuned for the next page to find answers! Hopefully.

[Aureal]

Page 18:

Ranger hammers with an apparent misunderstanding of the plurality elimination rules? Weirder and weirder.

Both Vander and Oclax are arguing for Ranger to get voted out D3 and it's hard to argue with that, even though Drew seems a little scummier. Ranger is looking very much like a linchpin here with Drew, Aisa, Vander, Oclax, all having significant interactions. Drew/Ranger/Aisa team maybe? Will have to look into it more in-depth later, but a few more pages to go!

[Aureal]

Page 20 (*yawns* almost there...):

Vander and Aisa are looking like the most likely heaven candidates. This matches my TRs. So I should feel good about that. It also makes me feel nervous. Is one of them pulling the wool over our eyes? (Please not both, ow.) Definitely going to need to dig more in-depth into what people are doing, and ponder more what scum seem likely to do here. This is such a different mechanic and setup than a regular game that I feel scum are going to play differently.

AV pointing out that it's dangerous to send a saint to heaven who SRs you is interesting. I hadn't considered that yet, though I've hardly had any time to think about the implications. Making that point is something that feels like it should mean something, but I'm not sure what. Is this something we really should be wary of?

If we do send a town up here, then wrongly send one down tomorrow, that does put us at Judgement Day with the town we send today making the call on who to condemn to save the game.

The game wincons are based on sending scum places. Nobody has advanced their wincon yet with yesterday's elimination. Sending town off in either direction just makes the ratio of scum to town higher. And thus bringing a Judgement Day closer in addition to making it harder for town to function without scum influence. So... I'm definitely going to have to think more about strategy. Might not want to go for the obvious.

Aisa's questions list is interesting. I hope she's going to have some answers too.

[Aureal]

And page 21 is mostly me! Yay! I know what I said already (I think) so I don't have to read it! I'm caught up!

Now I just have to actually process it and decide what to do!

[Aureal]

What, that you skimmed stuff? No, not at all. You skimming stuff was a reason to maybe

not

sr your catch-up because I thought you'd missed stuff and that could be why your conclusions seemed so off. I was scumreading Arko and you haven't turned that around at all.

[Aureal]

Alright, I went through Vander's ISO and tried to note every interaction to get a better picture of how he feels. Next up, Aisa (but not until a more reasonable hour).

Arko/Drew:

"mild town" in 24; not scum with OE in 89; likes the Oc/Arko read even more in 146; not obvious what's super towny in 195; null, vaguely towny in tone in 270; doesn't think he's made a dozen posts that are towny in tone like Ranger thinks in 292; more likely town if Ranger is scum in 547

Blood/Aureal:

agrees with Blood that they don't agree with OE's case in 90; quite towny and agrees with everything in 272; has sounded fairly towny in 548

Oclaxian/Enchant:

disagrees with case in 90; questions OE's reading an implication in 91; top scumread in 93; disagrees that meta is unreliable in 106; not feeling an Oc vote in 107; likes the Oc/Arko read even more in 146; "Stop" to Oc's self-vote; posts this page have been very towny in 199; towniest player so far in 240; response to Ranger's case was very towny in 262; willing to vote Oc for heaven but thinks it wouldn't get through unless incorrect in 453; most likely town but non-consensus opinion in 456; townier than Aisa in 548

Aisa:

disagrees that page 3 sounded like playful ribbing in 92; replies to Aisa's reply that she skimmed in 123; answers questions on Oc/Arko interactions in 145; asks why TR is terrifying in 194; asks if Aisa thoroughly read Ranger's Arko read; response on Arko sounds more real in 278; response to questions was fine in 297; agrees with Bella towncase in 543; had been mostly null until Bella towncase in 544; not comfortable with sending Aisa to heaven in 548; feels worse from association with Ranger vote in 549

Ranger:

asks why Arko is by far the towniest in 195; doesn't believe Ranger has TRs on all those Arko posts in 196; elaborates that if those reads were true Ranger would open with them not an associative in 199; more disagreement that Arko read is too strong to be real in 202-206; acknowledges error about associative read and continues to disagree because Arko read and asks about Arko's E-2 backpedal in 258; case on OE is okay but not sold in 262; sardonic question in 263; Ranger is assuming Arko is town and working backwards in 278; response to Ranger's accusation of hypocrisy in 292; scum justifying a read on someone in 293; concerned that Ranger hammered Kowah in 345; more disagreement on hypocrisy/Arko read in 433; should be snap limmed D3; still arguing that Ranger's argument/read isn't true in 444; legacy is to kill Ranger in 445; doesn't like just about anything she's posted in 446; questioning Ranger's wagon analysis in 545; asks why Aisa thinks he hasn't been trying to convince people Ranger is scum in 546; probably just open wolfing with vote in 549; keeps posting things he doesn't like and asks for reasons why Ranger is not evil in 554

Bella:

notes that Aisa's response to questions was fine in 297; more towny than not in 300; agrees with Aisa's towncase of Bella in 543; had been mostly null but Aisa's towncase post is quite strong in 544; townier than Aisa in 548

Kawaii/Kowah:

question reeks of fake hunting in 318; doesn't think it was a relevant thing to discuss in 345; Kowah hammer seems fine in 432

AV:

also interested in answers to AV's questions in 197; has sounded fairly towny in 548


TL;DR:

Arko/Drew:

mild town read pretty consistent throughout even as he argues about Ranger's stronger TR

Blood/Aureal:

no interaction, townread stays consistent

Oclaxian/Enchant:

disagreement initially causes drop to top scumread but lets a feeling stop him from voting then indicates growing townread

Aisa:

questions Aisa with expectation of scumread but response is fine so she remains null until towncasing Bella but still has concerns about association with Ranger

Ranger:

constant barrage of trying to tear down Ranger over the strong TR of Arko and then arguing over several more things

Bella:

no interaction, towny null until Aisa's towncase which strengthens read

Kawaii/Kowah:

little interaction but disagreement/suspicion in what little chance there was to have any

AV:

no real interaction, no read at all until talking about who is towny in comparison to Aisa in 548


I think it's pretty solid overall. Reads make sense, some change as circumstances change, no real about faces other than letting gut feeling stop him from pursuing Oclax. A few players get basically ignored but it seems fairly natural given the state of the thread, though it does feel a little weird that AV is one of them and the most ignored since it feels like he was more active than the others?

[Aureal]

Enchant, you saved me from having to spend hours writing up an Aisa case! Thanks, man! For once your trigger happy hammering was useful! XD

[Aureal]

Well obviously I couldn't hammer while sleeping, not that I would've if I hadn't been since I hadn't started writing up the Aisa case yet. Some of us like to be a little more methodical than just hammering whatever comes up!

[Aureal]

So anyway, Vander, what do you have for scumreads now? You obviously were scumreading Ranger- does Aisa being town affect that? She was most interested in defending Ranger, do you think she was wrong? And who else would you see as being scum with Ranger since it seemed like you were most wary of Aisa? You've been feeling most everyone else is somewhat towny, but there's got to be two more scum in there.

[Aureal]

I really liked the catch up for town but dislike 555 quite a lot.

BTW could you elaborate on this?

In long run it didn't matter it's all mafia ploy.

8 players
5 good
3 evil

And Aisa didn't vote for self.
So mafia helped.

Also, this makes one of(if not both) Aureal and Vander town confirmed.

*scratches head* How's that? Obviously I know I'm town, but from your POV what's stopping Vander and I from being scum and just the third one voting Aisa?

[Aureal]

I guess I'd never seen it before? The reads from other people worked out in that depth seemed to have more scum than town utility. Especially in this game where we have to work out who's going to vote who If we end up at two two, etc. Can you talk me through your why a little bit?

Seen someone go in-depth into evaluating a player's positions? Yeah, can't say I've done that before either, but I haven't replaced into a game with 20 pages and weird mechanics before either. If I'd been here all along I'd be feeling it more organically, I expect, but getting it all infodumped at once left me unsatisfied with my grasp on things and felt I needed to start digging more. And it did give me some things to think about, so I think it was useful for me at the least. I think I want to poke around more at what AV's been doing next- I clearly got next to nothing on him from Vander's ISO.

So it wasn't anything in particular you didn't like then, you didn't think my perspective was misleading or dangerous or anything like that, you just don't find it useful?

[Aureal]

@aureal, thats not what I said? I said it felt scummy because scum need to know more clearly with this mech who would vote who when, etc, Ans that's what it seemed a bit like.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from with that I guess, though I think trying to understand what scum's plan could be can be helpful.

Mostly I was just wondering if you thought that case was a read on Vander and you didn't like it, when it was mostly just trying to evaluate what he's been doing.

[Aureal]

@vander it's the why I feel is missing? Maybe I'm tired but it feels like conclusions, not procees. This in particular ' understand why scum would want to send Aisa to heaven over me if they know that Ranger is town and they can get an extremely reliable kill there to win the game if they can lim someone other than Ranger today.'

I don't understand this either. The last stuff Aisa was saying indicated that she was very confused about how to feel about basically everyone. I don't think there's any 'extremely reliable kill' coming from her.

It does seem somewhat more likely that they'll be trying to go that route for the win now than trying to go the much longer way and get two scum voted into heaven. Which maybe makes it more likely that Ranger is town? They wouldn't think everyone would drop their scumreads just because we saw Aisa, who was defending Ranger earlier, flip town.

[Aureal]

Because that "get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today" part seems like a potentially huge step? It seemed pretty likely then and still seems pretty likely that Ranger is the target today. You were calling for her to be snap limmed here and saying that if you were sent to the martyr thread that was your legacy.

[Aureal]

But as far as the Aisa read on Ranger, that really is a big wifom sandwich you are you are proposing here.

Oh yes, absolutely.

Also you are defending Ranger without actually 'defending' her. A bit sketch imo.

If I had explicitly spelled out the wifom argument as well for extra confusion and indecision, would it still be "defending without actually 'defending'"?

[Aureal]

@aureal, aisa had been consistent about one of her trs being wrong, yeah. I'd been good with just auto-voting ranger or Dr drew but I haven't liked anything from enchant and they normally town it up, especially Inna game this mech heavy.

Really? I guess I've never been in a game with Enchant long enough to see it, they've all been pretty brief encounters. Or I just have no idea how to read him.

I don't know how I feel about what ranger said just then about aisa.

I don't really like it. Aisa was not defending Ranger anymore by the end. She started out doing that and it faded so I don't find the conclusion that scum realized it'd be advantageous to remove Ranger's defender to be very grounded in what's actually been happening.

For clarity, my read on Dr drew seems to flip every post they make: I didn't like their poarinf at all a few pages ago but liked their recent one. I don't know what that means.

Im pretty sure ranger/ox-enchant isn't scum/scum, can I get a sense check on that?

I haven't given it that much thought and would want to investigate more deeply before giving a stronger answer, but yeah, doesn't feel quite right.

[Aureal]

I literally have no idea what you said there but it didn't seem like an answer to the question.

[Aureal]

@vander it's the why I feel is missing? Maybe I'm tired but it feels like conclusions, not procees. This in particular ' understand why scum would want to send Aisa to heaven over me if they know that Ranger is town and they can get an extremely reliable kill there to win the game if they can lim someone other than Ranger today.'

In a world where Ranger and I are both town, if scum sent me to heaven yesterday and then get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today, they can probably just assume I will send Ranger straight to hell, right?

So why not try to do that?

I actually like the reasoning here from vanders, but as was then pointed out by Aureal, that was not a likely scenario to occur since Ranger was going to be likely limmed anyway…I mean, I can see a world in which vanders is making a play that they’re all about this scenario to distance from ranger should they flip scum with the ascension to heaven, but like, is anyone going to buy that after they flip?*

Aureal what are your thoughts here with the vanders questioning? Like I’m not sure what longevity a play has where vanders promises to judgement day Ranger if vanders is scum who’s looking likely to go to heaven?

My thoughts are about whether all the Ranger/Vander fighting has been distancing, yeah. It does suck up an awful lot of Vander's attention.

Arghhh but then the thing that’s gnawing at me is I’m ALSO not sure why Ranger supported the vanders wagon, as town or scum that doesn’t make sense from Ranger if vanders is town. Unless it’s both of them are scum together and Ranger just got a bit eager and derailed his own partners wagon by offering support for it??

I have no answers for that either. I feel like if they were scum together and that was all a plan to get Vander voted to heaven, Ranger could be a little more patient there. But I think that was about the time I got in so maybe they suddenly got nervous that I was going to sway things to Aisa's side? I'll have to look back at that.

*actually…does vanders get more distancing cred with the above play if ranger is limmed, ie ranger flips scum and vanders then looks super townie for saying they’d judgement day them? Vs the distancing cred ranger would get if vanders was sent to heaven. Like could the play here have been gain the maximum cred for a d2 heaven vote for vanders???

:s

Not sure I'm entirely following you there, but I'd think they'd have preferred Vander getting the heaven vote we just had, unless that's what you meant by d2? Terminology is a bit weird in this game. The plan could've been that Ranger would get bussed D1 to get Vander the cred for the following heaven vote. Then the third, who's stayed hands off enough to not be easily identifiable, gets another heaven vote. But then since Aisa and Bella turned the wagon onto Kowah even after it looked like Ranger was going down, Vander didn't quite have the oomph for the heaven vote?

[Aureal]

@aureal, I'm pretty good at reading enchant! I'm surprised you've never seen him town it up, he often becomes obv! town, often by solving/mech, or obv scum by lack of engagement/effort.

Like I said, our interactions have been pretty short-lived. In our first game he was coaxed into hammering me not halfway through the D1 deadline then everyone went quiet the rest of the game. He's replaced into a slot that was masons and that day didn't last 12 hours before there was a hammer and he got nightkilled. And he replaced into a banned troll's slot and was scum in a game which was winding down D1 and had many nightkills so all he had to do D2 was wait for a quickhammer opening.

I can kind of see the difference in the town game you linked, but not for a good bit of time. Looks like he basically sat out day one and didn't start doing anything but trollpost for over a week and 50 game pages. So I'm still not sure what to expect from him here, other than trollposts.

[Aureal]

Because that "get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today" part seems like a potentially huge step? It seemed pretty likely then and still seems pretty likely that Ranger is the target today. You were calling for her to be snap limmed here and saying that if you were sent to the martyr thread that was your legacy.

Sure, but if Ranger is town, do you think it's better or worse for me or Aisa to be in heaven?

If Ranger is town and we flip her here, I don't know who either of you vote from heaven. Aisa was confused and you... haven't really given any recent scumreads other than Ranger. Still no thoughts there?

[Aureal]

No rush, we've got over four days, you take care of yourself. Looking forward to what you have to say when you're able!

[Aureal]

A few thoughts from some browsing of AV's ISO.

Pretty sure AV is NOT scum with Ranger because of 239 and is probably just town (the opening about Aisa reads pretty towny, are scum going to talk about how they want to read someone, doesn't seem so likely). I just can't see any reason why scum would make an argument directed to their scumbuddy only to have the scumbuddy misintepret it, forcing the original questioner to have to clarify and ask again. Ranger does not look as good for the misinterpretation, though. The original question in 181 and called out to Ranger again in 209 seems pretty clear and yet Ranger somehow digs up 45 and uses it in her response which clearly is not what AV is talking about- he literally quotes the 'freaking out' in 181; and if Ranger only saw 209's question it says Arko putting Oc at e-2 was "earlier in the thread" than the freaking out and 45 clearly is not earlier than the vote in 54.

It's also seeming less likely from this that Oc/Enchant is scum with Arko/Drew, as Oc was the one who triggered Arko's e-2 shenanigans. I could see this sequence as Arko starting to break down under early pressure, then coming back the next day to see feedback in the scum PT that his OMGUS stuff was bad and he unvotes.

I'm thinking Bella is town, though I haven't dug deeper on her yet. Vander/Ranger/Arko makes sense as a team to me. Arko gets pressured early but also seems to have decent support so Ranger defends in over-the-top fashion, trying to get Vander towncred for a heaven vote by bussing Ranger and then hopefully people think Ranger was white-knighting townArko so he has a heaven shot later? The heaven voting is maybe a little weird if so but I think makes enough sense... Drew puts Vander at h-1 and Ranger doesn't hammer, but that could be because obviously Ranger shouldn't want Vander there and maybe Ranger's slot is salvageable once we see Vander was scum, but not if Ranger hammers. It seemed reasonable to wait and figure Bella or I would be amenable to voting Vander. But AV switches to Aisa, Drew votes Aisa to see if that'll get AV back, Ranger obviously can't do anything but vote Aisa, then Bella brings out her Aisa read and Enchant loves hammers.

I'm moving towards voting Ranger but we've got time and she's got stuff to deal with. And I'll keep doing more poking around.

[Aureal]

Ok, lol. Why suddenly so passionate, after I just said I'm moving towards voting Ranger, your big scumread? Shouldn't that make you feel better?

I'm trying to solve here, and I'm not seeing you doing it with only the same ol' one scumread. Even if we are going to vote Ranger here, I want to try to have as much information out there on how people connect to others, particularly if we get it wrong and Aisa needs to try to save things. A task which I wouldn't envy, having to sit around and watch but not be able to interact.

[Aureal]

How do you come to the conclusion that I spend about half of the game shitting on Ranger's Arko read, and then when someone (I don't remember who) asked me why I shouldn't have Arko as super town if I think Ranger is spewing Arko, I actively argue against that line of logic?

You mean 547? "I think it's more likely they're town if Ranger is scum but I could easily be wrong. If I were 100% confident that it was spew, then I would townread him as strongly." This isn't really what I would call 'actively arguing against that line of logic'. This doesn't really have any sort of conclusion at all, it's a lot of handwaving. Rather like could come from a scumpartner who doesn't want to be seen as too strongly linked to Arko but not trying to actively sabotage Arko's rep since Arko needs to be credible enough to win a heaven vote (or not get chosen by the martyr thread on judgement day).

If that team "makes sense" to you with all of our imo extremely unlikely scum/scum interactions, wtf team does not make sense?

I like how you instantly responded to call your interactions "extremely unlikely scum/scum". As if that's exactly what you were trying to make them look like and are upset that someone isn't reading it like that. Doesn't really seem like a townie perspective- a townie

knows

their interactions aren't scum/scum.

@aureal, I don't think my aisa read was a surprise?

I don't think it should've been a surprise that you might vote her, no. I don't think it was entirely clear you

were

going to until you did it, you'd been talking about both her and Vander.

Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.

The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where? Seems like a drastic statement from someone who hasn't been giving a lot in the way of solving or reads lately.

I wasn't quite at a 'pushing' state for that team yet, more of a 'this is where my thoughts seem to be leading' state. But the reactions from you two are making me feel like I struck a nerve. It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading. We literally only have to catch two scum. Don't even need to bother seeing if I'm right on him if I'm right on the other two, because the game will be over.

[Aureal]

Well, by the same logic, shouldn't you be happy with my game-long push on the person you're currently voting for?

Uh, I haven't even voted yet. I don't think you're paying a lot of attention to this. And the rest of that line makes no sense. You're the one who suddenly got upset and developed a scumread on me because I dared suggest that you could be bussing Ranger. Nothing remotely similar the other way around has happened. "I think they're bussing" - "shouldn't you be happy about it" is a rather silly train of thought. I think you're just trying to discredit the read.

Arko read - someone's asking me "shouldn't you have Arko as super towny" and I explain why I don't.
That's my conclusion, it's not handwavey, and our conversation is the opposite of me trying not to sabotage Arko's rep.
Especially if you think I'm scum with Ranger, the best thing I can do in this situation is say that yes, I think Ranger is spewing Arko town and Arko would be obviously town if Ranger flipped.
If my goal is to look super good from hard bussing, why not do that?

C'mon, this isn't that hard to think through. You were townreading Arko, but mildly, and arguing that Ranger's STRONG townread was in bad faith. You two got some mileage out of Ranger accusing you of hypocrisy for also townreading Arko- you haven't forgotten you were townreading him have you? Aisa asked if Arko shouldn't be spewed town if Ranger was scum and you basically said "I don't know". This makes perfect sense if you're hoping to get voted to heaven next phase and thus worried people will look back at that with the knowledge that you're scum.

Townie knows their interactions are scum/scum - Are you serious?
This is a higher level of "nitpicking" than whatever the hell OE was talking about on page 3.
Like, when I posted "FIRST" I know that I didn't do it as scum, because I'm not scum, but if someone tried to tell me that me posting "FIRST" was scummy, I wouldn't say "no way man it's impossible for this to be scum because I know that it wasn't a scum post."

I'm talking about what it should look like from your perspective and it's baffling that I would even need to explain this.

Why is "it's impossible for Vander to be bussing Ranger" what it should look like from my perspective? The only argument I've been seeing in all of this is your own argument that it's against your meta. Obviously self-meta is hardly very useful. If I told you that I must be town because I only ever roll town, would you take that very seriously?

Even if you don't normally bus partners, I would suggest that this setup makes it especially favorable as a strategy because it's not based on outnumbering town. In most cases, you're delaying a win by doing so, and thus making it harder to achieve. Here, you don't need to be delaying anything because only two mafia need to enter heaven. You have an extra scum partner.

"It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading." - I'm outraged in the sense that you saying this is extremely scummy because I find it very hard to believe that you actually think this.
Btw I agree with you that also hate Ranger's comment about there definitely being one scum between us, that made no sense at all and is scummy.

But I think your recent posts have also been extremely scummy and I think you're probably together.

So do you disagree with Ranger's comment that it's the two of us who are most strongly pushing her?

[Aureal]

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where?

Difficult to explain exactly, but combination of gamestate and your reads/reasons.

I am being near-universally scumread. You are the strongest two pushers of me being scum. You are both pushing me as scum with solves that are objectively terrible. Vanderscamp refuses to name a team of three, or even a team of two, involving me; your team involves Ranger-Vanderscamp.

The pushes are equally terrible and equally backed by bad logic. Yet, if you were scum together, you wouldn't be pointing out how the other's takes are terrible. Vanderscamp wouldn't be pointing out the flaw in your solve if you were scum with him; you wouldn't be so critical of him if you were scum with him.

I'll ask you too. What is the 'flaw in my solve' other than it just apparently being impossible for Vander to be bussing you because you say so? You're both just huffing that it's impossible, which doesn't do anything to convince me that you aren't working together.

The gamestate suggests one of you is scum because of how if both of you are town the scum would be doing absolutely nothing at all. It'd require all three scum within {Doctor Drew, AurorusVox, Enchant, Bellaphant}. Only one of them is voting me. If you were both town, then why have I not been voted by all three scum?

Not following that logic. This isn't ELO, a quickhammer wouldn't end the game. If you're town, scum aren't all going to want to pile on just cuz since that will trigger judgment day for Aisa to make a last ditch effort to eliminate a mafiaoso. They ought to be worried about piling onto a bad wagon. Instead, what I saw was the two people I'm suspecting of being teamed with you voting you early and easily, which makes me feel they're not worried about being on a bad wagon. Even Enchant got worried at how fast that wagon got to e-1.

[Aureal]

@ranger, I asked you a question you may have missed.

You may have missed this, but I've been reconsidering my Vander read from as early as the end of Hell 1. I'm still figuring my read out on Vander.

By the way, where does this come from? I don't see anything indicating you were reconsidering Vander before, you weren't shy about townreading him during the heaven phase:

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{Bloodb0t}
{Doctor Drew}
{Oclaxian Empire}

Think I like this better.

That’s maybe a townie perspective more than not.

I agree Vander is town.

If Vanderscamp is town (my current theory), it's because the scum believe Vander in heaven is +scum.

Ranger, if I'm to believe you're town, what sort of scumteam am I supposed to believe is reasonable? Bella and AV feel town from their posting style, so that would leave me just Vander/Drew/Enchant. And nobody thinks Drew and Enchant are scum together because of the Arko/Oclax fight to start the game.

[Aureal]

The words are backed by actions, and are not just words. Objectively, no solve is

impossible

. Any team could happen.

Suggesting that team is disingenous, because the actions and words both back up it being quite unlikely.

Isn't making it seem unlikely that your partners are your partners kind of an important part of being scum? You're making an argument that it's unlikely that partners would spend half the game having protracted arguments and I just don't see what that's supposed to be so unlikely. There isn't a magic amount of arguing between people going on that erases their ability to be scum partners. I'm looking at the

way

the interaction goes when I say things like AV is not scum with you, because I think partners wouldn't have that specific interaction where it looked like you were trying to duck his question by answering something else, but all he did was clarify it and it was Vander who went on to try to use it against you. It's a genuine interaction, not something that would've been staged.

By the way, where does this come from?

From a post that got eaten by the thread being locked.

When I said "end of hell 1", I meant

end

of hell 1. I was making a post detailing my suspicion when the thread was locked. My immediate heaven1 posting was recreating the post I lost there, but I admit you've only my word it was typed during hell1.[/quote][/quote]

Your first post in the heaven phase doesn't say anything about re-thinking your Vander read. Or any post anywhere else that I could find until you mentioned it just now.

[Aureal]

Ranger, if I'm to believe you're town, what sort of scumteam am I supposed to believe is reasonable? Bella and AV feel town from their posting style, so that would leave me just Vander/Drew/Enchant. And nobody thinks Drew and Enchant are scum together because of the Arko/Oclax fight to start the game.

Well "from posting style" is a poor method of clearing slots in a team game where people have incentive to be strongly town as scum.

Maybe I'm not making myself entirely clear here, but I think you ought to know what I'm saying with that. You're the one who strongly townread Arko because you don't think scum would think to say stuff he said in 26. That's what I did with Aisa, I was wondering about her a little and then she made one post that just resonated so much I had to call her town. And I was right. So yeah, I think that's a perfectly valid way of trying to figure alignment.

I'd also point out it IS worth reconsidering clearing the team from a fight involved between two slots no longer in the game. The Arko/Oclaxian fight looked unpaired at the time; it is worth reconsidering

every

assumption later on. In particular, the slots' more recent interactions.

Alignment doesn't change with the player.

I feel your doubt of Vander-Ranger being antibuddies while clearing Drew/Enchant of the same is quite suspect for instance. There's far far

far

more evidence against Vander-Ranger than there is against Drew-Enchant.

Show me, then. What interactions between you do you think couldn't be faked? I haven't gone through a fine-tooth comb reading everything in the game with that lens. It's just something that occured to me, I posted about it, and the reactions to it aren't doing anything to send me in any direction other than continuing to consider it. After I posted about going through Vander's ISO, it didn't take long for me to realize that it was maybe a little

too

solid. Townreading basically everyone seems like a good way to keep on the good side of enough people to win a heaven vote. At first I considered AV a likely third since Vander had basically ignored him, but after I started going through AV's ISO I found that 239 interaction and ruled it out.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Aureal

Can you give an example of a team of three that has interactions and associative reads that you think makes less sense than Ranger/Me/Arko?

I already have, if you were paying attention. I considered Ranger/Vander/AV before this, and discarded it while going through AV's ISO because I don't think Ranger and AV can be scum together.

I think you and Drew are pretty much just open-wolfing at this point with these votes. Why are you abandoning your big scumread that you spent half your iso on for a last-minute spiritual omgus? We still could've voted Ranger out here if you weren't pulling shenanigans.

[Aureal]

Maybe it's confirmation bias but it's really hard to see these actions as something other than trying to get Drew limmed instead of Ranger because I spotted more opportunities to clear people based off of Ranger's flip. I've had the opportunity to hammer Drew for a while now but would have preferred Ranger for that reason. But with deadline 9 hours away, no word from Bella yet, and AV still vla I guess it's on me to do so soon here, before I go to bed. I'm the most confident that he's scum here anyway.

[Aureal]

Should be Vander and Drew voting me, with AV, Enchant, and Ranger on Drew. Hence my wanting to resolve this before going to bed, since Ranger deciding to shift to me like she said she'd consider would end up with me getting deadline eliminated by plurality. And while it probably wouldn't be too hard for Aisa to get a scum in that case, it's still better to not end up in that situation.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Aureal]

OK. Wow. Glad Aisa is better at this than I am.

I think that might actually mean Ranger is town then, and all hell wagons were on town. 3 Mafia OP.

I might have at least been onto something with Vander and AV not really interacting though?

@mod:

is judgement day once per game or does it happen every time parity is reached? That is, if we vote out town here are we done or does Aisa get to carry the whole thing?

[Aureal]

VOTE: Vanderscamp

I am bad at this game

Me too.

VOTE: Vanderscamp

[Aureal]

Because, while it's obviously possible from your pov that I as scum decide to HARD townside for the entire game, I just can't understand your perspective of thinking that this is actively a likely team from your pov compared to just a random three.
Like, you saw me play as scum in the Death Note game, and it's not like I was doing any real bussing at all in that game, I was pretty much exclusively pushing anti-town lines.

To be clear, Vander is citing Death Note, a game in which scum's win condition is to not let scum leader "Kira" die. He is citing this as evidence that it's ludicrous of me to think that he could bus here in this game. Trying to bus in Death Note would have

literally

been game throwing. (Not to mention pretty damn hard seeing as scum didn't have communications or even much knowledge of each other.)

Also, "HARD townside" huh? I guess this is just him saying he's super-towny because he says so?

[Aureal]

I've reviewed my read that Ranger and AV wouldn't be scum together, and I still think it's pretty solid. I cannot see why scum would come back to the same point about Arko's E-2 trying to communicate in all of posts 181, 186, 239, 241, 245, 249, 251, 252, and 256. They'd be talking in the mafia PT doing something like "hey let's talk about how Arko was inconsistent about voting to E-2" and work out their angles there rather than talking past each other constantly in the main thread like what happened in these posts.

Ergo, I must conclude that Ranger is likely town. Which leaves me three possible teams: Vander/Bella, Vander/Enchant, and Enchant/Bella. And we only need to catch one of them, and Aisa gets another try if we don't get it. I think we're in a pretty good position here.

[Aureal]

Enchant reaction test: completed

I think Enchant just might know Vander's alignment. Uninformed Enchant seems most likely to stick with that vote rather than promptly unvote.

VOTE: Enchant


I'll probably address some other stuff later.

[Aureal]

If you're so concerned about haste, why vote in the first place? This is not RVS. You ought to know a vote can lead to an elimination easily enough here.

[Aureal]

Bella, what do you think Enchant's motivation here is?

[Aureal]

Sorry for that quote fail:

Can you explain that?

What was the reaction test?

Of the three teams I consider possible solves, Enchant/Vander was looking the least likely due to Enchant promptly voting you here. Scum lose if just one of them gets caught either by us or by Aisa if we fail, so they're not going to want to help town vote their own out. So Enchant shouldn't vote his partner here.

Except they don't want to get caught by Aisa either so voting a partner to start as distancing then finding some way to move on to someone else seems plausible, especially since it's Enchant so reasoning is not really expected. So I voted too to see if he would move his vote off, and he did.

Now, he could also be skittish about being that cavalierly on a town elimination. But what I don't find likely is that he doesn't know your alignment, put a vote out as his best guess, then decided to go back on it just because e-1 (a measly one more vote!). Particularly given his followup in 743, which makes zero sense if he's concerned about e-1!

[Aureal]

Then either I was right and victory is attained or Aisa would get to try to sort it out again with what we've done, and I think we're in a pretty good spot for her to do so. Not much reason to think a quick hammer would come though; Bella hasn't really been after you so a lolhammer would be mega sus and Ranger said she was going to review stuff in 24 hours so I trust that her suddenly dropping a hammer beforehand was not going to happen.

[Aureal]

I feel like these terrible grab-bag posts are basically just Enchant scumclaiming.

[Aureal]

Bella, what do you think Enchant's motivation here is?

You're the one most familiar with Enchant, your input would be appreciated here!

[Aureal]

I'm going to just go ahead and throw out my partially-done interaction read of AV's ISO which I had stopped after coming to 239 and deciding Ranger/AV wasn't a possible team and AV was likely town. I guess that was premature so I'll get back into doing the rest soon.

Arko/Drew: agrees Arko at top of pile (22); sus of Arko's 'panic' unvote and that Arko is also e-2 (152); argues against use of "technically" (181)
Blood/Aureal: agrees with doing scum+townhunting (95); slight townlean (97); agrees with posts (98)
Oclaxian/Enchant: vote w/o reason (95); agrees over "technically" (103); unvotes (109)
Aisa: unsure how to feel about Aisa/Vander silliness (210); asks for town/scumhunt preference (211); disarming and he wants to read as town (239)
Ranger: asks Bella if Ranger's contribution is better than Arko's (27); asks for opinion about Arko's e-2 backpedal (209)
Bella: responds on Arko-read (27); presses after Ranger misunderstands the Arko e-2 question (239)
Kawaii/Kowah:
Vander: agrees Arko's mild town is top of list (28)

[Aureal]

Ranger's first half of #676 and last part of #677 are pretty good explanations of why Aureal's stuff made no sense.

Sorry for trying to brainstorm in your mafia game. If you think my thoughts don't make sense, explaining why would've been more productive than going OMG YOU SO SCUMMY!!

He was giving a lot of credence to the Arco/Ox interaction as never being scum/scum, but not the Ranger/me interaction, when that interaction should have been far more obvious, and additionally I was the main person (correctly) advocating that Arco/Ox wasn't scum/scum, and he was putting me as the third member of that scum team.

He? Who are you talking about here, me?

Drew and I are open wolfing huh

Wtf do you mean "we could have voted Ranger here?"

You spent the entire day having the opportunity to vote Ranger and declined to do so, despite saying at the start of the day that my logic about Aisa or I getting voted to heaven was pointless because getting a non-Ranger mislim today was such an unlikely event.

It means exactly what it means. You spent all that time wanting to vote Ranger. Then after I said I was getting ready to do so as well, you jumped on me instead, apparently leading Drew to follow you because the other votes were on himself. If you'd stayed on Ranger I would've been a third vote there, and Enchant being Enchant would likely have hammered. You left me with the only option being to vote Drew out instead. I kept my vote out of play so long because there was no reason to risk the day ending quickly- I know Enchant likes hammers. AV was away, Ranger was sick, game activity was low in general, and I was trying to think and read things- that's not the time to rush a vote.

Maybe it's confirmation bias but it's really hard to see these actions as something other than trying to get Drew limmed instead of Ranger because I spotted more opportunities to clear people based off of Ranger's flip. I've had the opportunity to hammer Drew for a while now but would have preferred Ranger for that reason. But with deadline 9 hours away, no word from Bella yet, and AV still vla I guess it's on me to do so soon here, before I go to bed. I'm the most confident that he's scum here anyway.

Also, this post is complete nonsense.

Wtf are you talking about with it being hard to see what I'm doing as anything other than trying to get Drew limmed?

This would maybe be believable if I had said at ANY POINT yesterday that Drew was scummy.
I never put any pressure on him at all and I think limming him in that spot over you or Ranger was absurd.

Can you quote anything that involves me "trying to get Drew limmed" to justify what you're saying here?

Your actions speak louder than your words. Ranger was the likely wagon for most of the day, and was still viable even though Drew went e-1 as I explain in the above response. But then you decided to vote me at the end instead.

[Aureal]

Firstly, I think your progression on me this game on me was super weird.

I'm super weird.

You apparently deep dived my entire iso and called me pretty solid overall.

Yup. I posted that, went to bed, and as soon as I got into bed I started thinking "but that's exactly what scum here are going to want to look like, ugh that was premature to say."

After that, you make post #622, which is essentially you starting to sheep a read by Vox of all people that Ranger and I could be distancing.

Yeah that was also actually a bit of why I thought AV wouldn't be teamed with you two, forgot to mention that- he wouldn't have brought that idea up in that case. I can't even remember for sure now, but maybe it was reading that that started me thinking along those lines, though I'm

pretty

sure I did start wondering if the big Ranger/Vander fight could be a bus first and then saw that and it encouraged me to think that way.

I'd like to address the bold part.

During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.

If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either

A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together

It's A. I was just answering Vox's question- looks like it confused me and I tried to think of explanations under the assumption that what he was saying was true. The scum lied about what happened and confused me. And I'm only just now realizing this, because I don't specifically remember writing that response but I do remember checking Ranger's ISO later expecting to see a Vander vote somewhere that got moved and being confused when it was just an Aisa vote.

Re: hard townsiding, yes, if your solve was Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko, what would you call it?

If the three of us are scum, and my scum partner gives a town read on my other partner, and I spend probably more time than anyone else has spent going after any other player this game just relentlessly shitting on my scum partner for their terrible townread on my OTHER scum partner, what would you call that?

C'mon man, you act like bussing is not a concept that exists. I already explained why that would be an even more valuable strategy in this setup, so it's only prudent to be on the lookout for it. My very first game back here after 16 years away featured a very strong scum bus that caught us his partner whom nobody was going after and thus got him the towncredit to endgame. It happens.

Also, as I already said a while back, I don't think it's ludicrous to think that I could be bussing Ranger this game.
It's not actually within my scum range, but it's possible if you don't know me very well to think that I could be some kind of extremely playing-against-my-wincon maniac scum busser, and it's not ridiculous to think that it's at least an option.

You're so over the top. Bussing isn't playing against your wincon, especially in this setup.

What I do find ridiculous is for you to just casually mention that as a team.

Sigh. What even is the difference- I'm allowed to think it but I'm not allowed to bring up that I'm thinking about it? When I hold back on what I'm thinking and play very carefully and precisely think about what I'm saying, people think that's scummy because scum are careful. When I say things I'm thinking about without spending hours analyzing every nook and cranny of its possible ramifications, well apparently that's scummy too.

It's a little frustrating.

If you thought Ranger and I were scum together, it's in spite of our interactions together, not because of them.
Right?
Are you disputing that, or do you think that someone relentlessly trying to lim someone is above random to be scum vs scum as a general rule?

I... don't think I really have much in the way of 'general rules', I've only been playing for three months really. I take situations as I find them, and I can be a bit of a rebel in how I look at things vs. how things are generally looked at.

You never gave any real reasoning why you thought that that was particularly likely, and especially not for it to be WITH Arko, based on the nature of my push on Ranger, especially since you recently ISOed me.

I admit, the Arko as the third part didn't feel exactly right, but after ruling out AV that seemed the best fit. He was always on my scum radar, much moreso than Bella or even Oc.

I'm not trying to say that this is the same game as death note, but that was your experience of seeing me play as scum, and it certainly wasn't an example of me bussing / playing against my wincon.

You literally couldn't bus in that game. I already said that. Stop equating bussing with playing against wincon. What you did do in that game was get very highly townread as scum, so I know it should likely be in your capability here.

Like, let's take the Arko/Ox interaction.
If we all saw this obviously not scum/scum interaction and I started saying stuff like "yeah I think Arko/Ox/Aureal makes a lot of sense, I can see Ox and Arko just raging at each other at the start of the game," and I didn't have any real reasoning about why I thought that combo of scum was especially likely other than just trying to discredit the reasons why it wasn't unlikely, I would expect to (rightly) take heat for that stance unless I could bring up some kind of relevant past player-specific history on why that kind of scum/scum interaction would be likely from either player.

People are allowed to perceive interactions differently. I don't think Ranger/Vander and Arko/Oclax interactions are all that comparable. Yours is a lengthy battle on several topics - Arko and Oclax was more personal and the emotional response seems real.

[Aureal]

But, if what you're saying is true, that "I left you with the only option being to vote Drew out instead," then why did you accuse Drew and me of open wolfing?

Uh, literally read the words in those quotation marks for the answer to your question?

If I'm forcing your hand in that way, then surely you would have known that we weren't scum together, right?...

Clearly not. Why would I?

[Aureal]

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

[Aureal]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

[Aureal]

Is there a particular reason why Bella/Enchant isn't a world, other than that we would all suck?

Mostly?

No.

I see you as scum;
I see Aureal as scum;
I see you two can't be scum together.

It's certainly

possible

you're both town, yes. In that world, we all suck.

I want to trust in my competency.

I think it's entirely possible that we all suck. Which is why I'm glad we don't control Aisa, she's the only one catching scum.

Is there anything specific you'd like me to address?

[Aureal]

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

He didn't lie, Ranger did support it, just never voted for me, because of the reasoning that I would probably just send Ranger to hell in the next phase.

"I'll vote Vander if there's no other option" sure doesn't sound like support to me, just resignment. IDK how you two can think it's reasonable to call it that. He certainly confused me with it. So let me come back to this:

During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.

If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either

A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together

If YOU had a look at this at all, which you clearly must have since you point out Ranger never voted you and had Aisa as top town, where is this stuff on Vox coming from at the end of the first paragraph? Ranger never specifically mentioned Vox, who was in the middle of her reads; she just did some analysis that there must be scum voting you. You apparently thought her reluctance to vote you was because of that analysis during that phase, and Ranger corrected you in 553, which you promptly acknowledged. So why are you back to your old argument, and specifically bringing Vox into the argument?

[Aureal]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

I get that, but it's more town! Enchant in that he wants to win, rather than to survive. I'd like everyone to respond whether it's a good or bas idea, basically

What reason would townEnchant have to think that flipping the two of us would lead to a win? It wouldn't. He's given no reason to think I'm scum, let alone "10/10 scum" that guarantees a win. If he were actually trying to solve I think he'd see that. Why would I suddenly go after him if I'm scum? You've pointed out that he doesn't get eliminated easily, but I do and he knows it.

[Aureal]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

I get that, but it's more town! Enchant in that he wants to win, rather than to survive. I'd like everyone to respond whether it's a good or bas idea, basically

What reason would townEnchant have to think that flipping the two of us would lead to a win? It wouldn't. He's given no reason to think I'm scum, let alone "10/10 scum" that guarantees a win. If he were actually trying to solve I think he'd see that. Why would I suddenly go after him if I'm scum? You've pointed out that he doesn't get eliminated easily, but I do and he knows it.

How does he know? I thought you didn't have much experience with him?

What's the benefit of scum! enchant posting that?

As far as past games, Enchant helped mislim me day one in both our prior games (and if he'd read the day one of the game where he replaced in during the night he'd have seen that I was at significant risk of it happening there there too were it not for Klick being stellar with his reads there and turning the lim onto scum instead).

And of course, in this game specifically I'd already antagonized both Vander and Ranger with my speculation about a bus there, before zeroing in on Enchant to get him worked up and you also deciding you could vote me.

TBf noone else wants to talk about your plan so I am getting worried that I'm being thick here. But we have two days and noone wants to talk to me about consensus either.

There isn't really anything to talk about. I'm clearly on everyone's potential vote list and we couldn't really put a comparable list of who would be willing to vote others together since he's not going to say anyone other than me.

[Aureal]

I save your time: I will not vote anyone else. Therefore you can't elim anyone without my help or mafia help (protip mafia will not vote each other)

Wrong. You're the deadline elimination as things stand because you got voted first. How can you make a basic mech fail like that?

[Aureal]

I am so damn confused.

Basically every time Vander or Bella does something my opinion on which is more likely to be scum changes.

And now Enchant is actually seeming like he could be town?

fffffffffffffffffffff

Maybe I should just vote whoever Ranger votes.

Guess I could at least finish going through Vox's interactions first though.

[Aureal]

Aureal has just helped to solidify the townie vibes I was getting from bloodbot

If people don’t like vanders for heaven then they need to be proposing alternatives that aren’t themselves.

Based on my calculations earlier the only person who could contend with vanders for heaven is Asia. I’m guessing aureal would accord with that which I think gives Asia the necessary support too.

Tbh I’d be happy with either, drew being on vanders as well as Ranger maybe pushes me towards

VOTE: asia

VOTE: Aisa

Ok now I am on Aisa, you gonna switch to Vanders now?

Agree Aureal is fairly good vibes

Seconded.

This does necessitate a reassessment from he.

VOTE: Aisa
I'm comfortable sending Aisa to heaven.

I need to reassess my reads to find who to send to hell. (My pool had Aureal's slot there, so with Aureal towning it up, my reads need a reset.)

I'm a bit busy today so I'll handle a reassess tomorrow.

Not sure how to process this, but Vox was not sure about sending Vander to heaven because myself and Ranger were on them.

I then vote Aisa wondering if they would jump off Aisa(and I was liking her for town at this point).
Then Ranger sheeps.........and Vox kinda was gone.

Trying to re-calibrate here.

Okay, I'm reviewing things and this is kind of sticking out to me.

The Aisa wagon was started by Vox. I was replacing in and getting caught up at the time. I'd just put Aisa as town and Vander "likely town though I think he's good at looking town as scum from reading Death Note". At the top of the page the Vander wagon was Vander, Oc, Vox. Drew joins it, and we get this 517 post from Vox, whom we now know is scum, shading Drew and Ranger (I'm not clear exactly why Vox brings Ranger into this at all as she wasn't voting Vander but he acts like she was?? I don't really wanna get back into whatever this is, but looks like Drew got confused by Vox's talk about Ranger supporting Vander too, though.)

So, it's entirely possible that Vox was seeing support building for his preferred wagon, Vander, and taking the opportunity to get off to spare his credibility when Vander flipped scum. I'm not actually sure why he would swap wagons like that if they're both town. Only reason I can see is if Ranger is his partner and he's worried about the judgement day threat, but I don't think they are teamed from their prior interactions.

And then the wagon got away from them, with Ranger, Drew, and then Bella quickly piling on, making it too awkward for Vox to go back? Enchant hammering it is actually slightly sus since I'm not sure a townie would be that sure and it was clear Aisa could make it to heaven now with a self-vote so it could be for some cred for helping send town to heaven. But it is Enchant, who likes hammering things, so just slightly.

[Aureal]

You keep talking about how much you want to get Ranger, but when push came to shove last phase you came after me instead and made that impossible. And now you complain about how Ranger keeps getting away. I don't get it.

[Aureal]

It's like you've paid no attention to anything I've said. I was intending on voting Ranger

last

phase. The Vox flip totally changed my mind and I have no intention of doing so anymore. I've already addressed my reasons for waiting as long as I did to put my vote in play. Once I voted there the phase was likely to end shortly thereafter, so I waited as long as possible to gather my thoughts, give Ranger time to recover from her illness, and others like the VLA Vox to possibly pitch in. I don't see any reason to speed through the day hardly ever so if I'm concerned that might happen, my vote is not going to be where it's going to encourage an abrupt end to the phase.

[Aureal]

Alright, dunno if that's enough to get Bella onboard and I'm terrible at convincing anyone of anything, but hopefully chipping in a VOTE: Vanderscamp will do it anyway.

[Aureal]

You even mentioned on D2 that you didn't want to vote me for heaven partially because Vox was voting there, but that didn't stop you from voting either Aisa D2 or Drew D3, which continues to be very confusing to me if you are town.

Vander I already addressed this untruth about Ranger and Vox in 797, you can stop trying to make hay with it.

[Aureal]

And while I'm feeling decent about this vote; I'll throw my completed Vox iso read notes out here too just in case it's helpful. I didn't get around to summaries this time, got more distracted with the post I made earlier.


Arko/Drew: agrees Arko at top of pile (22); sus of Arko's 'panic' unvote and that Arko is also e-2 (152); argues against use of "technically" (181); doesn't like that Arko hasn't engaged with e-2 issue (322); slot is preferred lim (385); Drew vote on his is suspect (472); questions on wisdom of voting him for heaven when he'd been voting Drew's slot for hell (477); potentially rethinking read on slot due to Drew's support (478); votes over 'fabricating a lack of knowledge' of setup (575); responds to Drew's posting about swapping vote to Aisa because of Drew (635, 636)

Blood/Aureal: agrees with doing scum+townhunting (95); slight townlean (97); agrees with posts (98); likes posts (385); Aureal solidifys townie vibes (517); agrees w/Aureal it's not a likely scenario and asks for thoughts about Vander questioning (608)

Oclaxian/Enchant: vote w/o reason (95); agrees over "technically" (103); unvotes (109); likes at times but hard to read (385); asks Enchant for priority read on Aisa's slot (537); asks why Enchant posts about looking incompetent for hammering Aisa (575)

Aisa: unsure how to feel about Aisa/Vander silliness (210); asks for town/scumhunt preference (211); disarming and he wants to read as town (239); asks for comment on Arko's e-2 fiasco (322); not seeing someone's scumread of Aisa (385); understands and is guided by TR (472); using Aisa's reads to sort uncertainties on Bella/Ranger (493); offers Aisa as possibly having the support for heaven and votes (517)

Ranger: asks Bella if Ranger's contribution is better than Arko's (27); asks for opinion about Arko's e-2 backpedal (209); presses after Ranger misunderstands the Arko e-2 question (239); clarifies issue with Arko's e-2 (245, 251, 252); can't tell if reevaluation on Arko is legit (322); keen to see Ranger's conclusion on Arko (323); could be scum or hardheaded townie, Aisa's TR is main thing swaying him away from Ranger lim (385); intent to hammer before deadline (398); not sure why Ranger 'supported' the Vander wagon and suggests maybe scum together (608)

Bella: responds on Arko-read (27); null- townslip seems shifty but clumsy for scum to do (385); responds to Bella asking for engagement by asking for her to tell what she thinks of his 'draft' heaven vote proposal (472); asks why self-votes seem desparate (473)

Kawaii/Kowah: asks about Kowah's one post they felt strongly about (324); didn't like attitude (385); votes (399); suspect of Kowah putting e-1 but not announcing it (402)

Vander: agrees Arko's mild town is top of list (28); strongest townread (385); asks for take on Aisa/Bella (472); votes for Vander to heaven (482); people who don't like Vander for heaven need to be proposing non-self alternatives and offers Aisa as possibly having the support (517); likes reasoning on heaven vote though agrees w/Aureal it's not a likely scenario, not sure why Ranger 'supported' the Vander wagon and suggests maybe scum together (608)

[Aureal]

I am really good at this.

No, wait, it's the other person whose name starts with A.

>_>

Aisaaaaaaaaaaa MVP!

[Aureal]

Well if town wasn't so bad at finding scum we could've had one.

That seems like it could be problematic to have multiple martyrs though, what would if they don't agree? I guess they'd have to use the same deadline votes system.

[Aureal]

Also I feel like Vanders deserves a special shout out, fmpov all 38 pages of you screaming that Ranger was scum were sorely necessary and I’m not sure how this game would have gone if not for you

I'm going to take that as meaning it's better that we flipped him rather than me so you got the benefit of knowing his better reads were for real and not my gullible ones.

[Aureal]

Bella oh my god!! My reads were so so cooked when I got voted into heaven
All three of you have nice scumgames well done

*lightbulb*

[Aureal]

I for one find it quite shocking how much Aisa was townreading me for a good chunk of that time, because nobody ever does.

I felt a bit emboldened that last phase and started trying to push the envelope like a good unselfconscious townie or something and it apparently had the opposite effect. XD

[Aureal]

Drama! Plots! Hijinks!

I totally forgot AV still got to participate in the scum PT after getting zapped.

[Aureal]

@aureal, klick read your posts right after replacing in and said 'oh cool aureals town' and I said 'i know, how annoying'. So people clearly do tr you.

Well, Klick is Klick! Not sure he counts as 'people' so much as some sort of read-god.

[Aureal]

Post 1000 is so close, yet so far...

O rly?

[Aureal]

We did it!