Mini 2292: Anything uPick - Game Over!

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:07 am

@Ali, please unvote and lets talk where PB does not have hammer potential anymore.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:12 am

Like, I want to take a walk and stop being heated from that exchange, and then come back.

But I am worried that if I actually make compelling posts in an exchange with you, PB might just hammer for survival. To avoid us turning on him.

So, it is like, I feel like I can't actually even try until then

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:13 am

In post 1813, Pink Ball wrote: I could've hammered before you started speculating shit, I could hammer right now, you still make no sense and it's still pretty obvious you're derailing LLD's wagon

You and I both know that if you hammered after the big deal you made about not hammering, it would out you.

So, just hammering here is not an out for you, unless you literally have no other choice.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:13 am

And right now it is Just Me.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:52 am

I am not posting more about it until Ali has unvoted, for the reason stated in 1814.

I just wrote the post I will send once that happens and saved it as a draft.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:00 am

In post 1821, Pink Ball wrote: Pocketing Ali, noted

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:25 am

I keep refreshing hoping for the Ali pop-in.

But it I am going to have to go offline soon :/

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:30 am

In post 1701, Alisae wrote:WAVE

In post 1704, Alisae wrote: WAVE I HAVE CHECKMATE
YOU WANNA SEE IT?

In post 1712, Alisae wrote: That’s sadge I was really hoping to try to talk to a townie before I went to bed

Ali, our different schedules have cursed us this day.

This is now me.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:40 am

I'm EST, so 10:30 AM

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:53 am

Makes sense.

But I do have to go now, so I guess my post will have to wait :/

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:26 am

In post 1837, Alisae wrote: No quickhammer from flea, pb, or you

Sas has his vote in play and is gone

We should probably stick in SAS vs LLD

Are you not willing to unvote at least long enough to hear me out about my concerns?

I agree that the lack of hammer means that 1 scum is very likely inside of LLD/SAS, but that does not fully address my concern

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:27 am

If you are not even going to listen to me, I guess I can just vote LLD because I am powerless if you are not even hearing me out :/

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:31 am

You do not get it.

If I am right about him being third party, we can be setting ourselves to be fucked.

I pathed out the possible outcomes if PB is 3rd party, and LLD is town. It is BAD

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:31 am

In post 1842, Alisae wrote: Like I’d love to kill PB
But that requires waiting for a SAS replacement, convincing that SAS replacement to do it.

I am not really convinced that not waiting until the stephen slot has been replaced is a bad thing, seeing as how who ever gets it might need to choose who to make hated tonight.

But even without waiting, You+Me+Flea+LLD = Dead PB.

LLD will likely agree because anyone else is better then her, even if that someone else is her partner.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:31 am

I guess, I will just post it

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:31 am

But you unilaterally deciding that you get to choose where a Melo day ends is kind of frustrating.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:32 am

Now that we know that we are never in a 3:2:1 world, and only 4:2 or 4:1:1, here is a run down of what happens if we go ignore the possible SK.

If we ARE at 4:1:1 right now, and we kill town!LLD, here are some possible worlds:

1 death, 1 disappearance (both town)

---1:1:1 -- it is now

impossible

for us to win. We would just be king makers between the two anti-town factions.

1 Disappearance, but no flips

We have no idea what is happening

. Did they double up? Did the SK eat the scum? Who knows? Not us.
It could be 1:1:2 (which is again, unwinnable, we are just king makers) or
it could be 1:3, but the 1 has upto 2 scum inside which also feels hard.
And we don't even know what world we are in.

The only good outcome for the town is if the scum team kill the SK.

But what if they don't? If they shoot else where, the town basically always loses. IF PB really does spit people back out if he dies, then why would they even bother? They can risk getting eaten, and then come back with his elim down the line anyways.

This is the world that I am worried about. If we get it wrong between Stephen and LLD, and PB is 3rd party, we are fucked.

If we are in 4:2, then killing PB first is NOT BAD, because we get to see his flip to help find the scum. Either way. Either we confirm him group scum, and we are expressly looking for a PB partner.

OR

We confirm him not group scum, and we get to reset and come back to MELO with more information.

Frankly, (especially after the last page or so!), I am prepared to bet the game on PB being Not Town, of one variety or the other.

You seem to think that the only world where PB is town, I am scum. If I am wrong, then I will take the miselim tomorrow and this loss will be on me.

You talked me out of pushing for the third party kill yesterday, but I want it today.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:33 am

I had kind of accepted that if he was 3rd party, we were largely going to be at the whim of the anti-town night actions when 3:2:! was possible, but we can potentially lock that out now that we know we are never at 3:2:1

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:36 am

If PB is 3rd party, which is my best guess at how this game makes sense, then this is the wrong game plan. We are setting ourselves up to lose.

If you are right, and I am wrong, THEN WE WIN WITH EITHER PATH.

But if I am right, and you are wrong, then your path could be throwing the game.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:36 am

In post 1847, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1842, Alisae wrote: Like I’d love to kill PB
But that requires waiting for a SAS replacement, convincing that SAS replacement to do it.
I am not really convinced that not waiting until the stephen slot has been replaced is a bad thing, seeing as how who ever gets it might need to choose who to make hated tonight.

But even without waiting, You+Me+Flea+LLD = Dead PB.

LLD will likely agree because anyone else is better then her, even if that someone else is her partner.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:38 am

In post 1855, Pink Ball wrote: Wave your logic is really really off and I can only see this kind of logic that omits key information coming only from scum!you

If you think that the scum team is LLD+Me, then this path is STILL a town victory.

You flip town -> We kill me and LLD in the last two days of the game.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:39 am

The path that I am saying we take wins if I am right. It wins if Ali is right. It wins if Pink Ball is right.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:39 am

And if we are all fucking wrong somehow, then we were losing anyways

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:40 am

Well, I wanted the unvote, because I thought that if I was able to start to sway you, then PB might hammer. And I did not want him to have that option anymore once you started considering what I had to say.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:42 am

What scum team do we lose to by doing my path?

It is the safest path, and it is feeling really shitty that no one actually seems to care about my concern for the way this could lose. (Not PB, he has to argue against it if I am right, so :shrug I guess)

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:43 am

In post 1865, Alisae wrote: What world are we dealing with if LLD is town?
A SAS and PB wolfteam?

Yes.

I was leaning SAS>LLD before your case.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:43 am

In post 1538, Wavelength wrote: I think I might be leaning SAS > lld for group scum.

But I am not confident in that at all, and want to do some rereading before we commit to anything

So please don't speed the day @ali / flea / pb

Like I posted this, and you voted anyways

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:45 am

SAS was single mindedly focused on PB in a way that I felt like could be him as scum trying to avoid having other scum reads, and his push was fairly ineffectual at first.

But looking back, his push actually had an uptick after PB claimed that the people in his hood could come back. Suddenly, he was interested in "saving" the people in PB's hood.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:46 am

In post 1870, Pink Ball wrote: IF IT WAS SAS AND ME I WOULD'VE HAMMERED FOR FUCKS SAKE

I am saying you 3rd party, and SAS group scum.

So no.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:46 am

In post 1867, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1865, Alisae wrote: What world are we dealing with if LLD is town?
A SAS and PB wolfteam?
Yes.

I was leaning SAS>LLD before your case.

I misread when I said Yes.

I was saying yes to SAS+Penguin Power, not PB

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:48 am

In post 938, Stephen A Smith wrote: Kokichi is dead and Pink Ball is making shit up

In post 939, Stephen A Smith wrote: he can't talk to dead people he just kills people

In post 940, Stephen A Smith wrote: or maybe they're stuck inside his stomach or something

In post 948, Stephen A Smith wrote: I am here to rescue Best Bird

You can see the transition right in the ISO, from "PinkBall is lying about everything" to "wait, lets kill PB to save the people he kidnapped"

Like, even the tone and mood of his posting up ticked here as he saw that as a possibility

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:51 am

In post 1333, Wavelength wrote: Okay, running through the numbers like stephen did, but with there being 6 alive instead of 5

If we are at 3:2:1, and we kill Pink Ball, and then there is a night kill, that would make tomorrow 2:2

We lose...

So yeah. We should have killed pink ball yesterday

In post 1335, Wavelength wrote: I guess there is the possibility that one of PB's targets were scum since they did not flip, but it seems scary to bet the game on that. So I am gonna work from the assumption that we are 3:2:1 right now.

I think that flea is the person that I am most prepared to treat as 100% town.

In post 1338, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1335, Wavelength wrote: I guess there is the possibility that one of PB's targets were scum since they did not flip, but it seems scary to bet the game on that. So I am gonna work from the assumption that we are 3:2:1 right now.

I think that flea is the person that I am most prepared to treat as 100% town.
That just leaves 1 more town in [Ali, Stephen, LLD]

I really want to believe its Ali, but Stephen+LLD going at one another so much leading into the end game makes me question if they can be teamed

In post 1339, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1338, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1335, Wavelength wrote: I guess there is the possibility that one of PB's targets were scum since they did not flip, but it seems scary to bet the game on that. So I am gonna work from the assumption that we are 3:2:1 right now.

I think that flea is the person that I am most prepared to treat as 100% town.
That just leaves 1 more town in [Ali, Stephen, LLD]

I really want to believe its Ali, but Stephen+LLD going at one another so much leading into the end game makes me question if they can be teamed
Maybe the game actually makes more sense if one of Kokichi / Penguin was scum?

Because Ali being town, and then it being *one of* Stephen/LLD makes a lot more sense to me with how I have been reading this game.

PB is acting like I am suddenly having these thoughts because I am trying to save LLD, but these were my thoughts walking into the day.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:53 am

In post 1879, Alisae wrote:
In post 1871, Wavelength wrote: SAS was single mindedly focused on PB in a way that I felt like could be him as scum trying to avoid having other scum reads, and his push was fairly ineffectual at first.

But looking back, his push actually had an uptick after PB claimed that the people in his hood could come back. Suddenly, he was interested in "saving" the people in PB's hood.
he didn’t believe for a second that people would come back from pb’s hood.
SAS doesn’t have to play this way if he’s a wolf with PB. If he’s a wolf with pb he decided to immediately hard bus his partner and LLD played a major role in getting most town dead compared to SAS.
And everyone who had a read on SAS was like “ya I believe he has this read.”

Also if this were really the case, wouldn’t the game be over now?
Like why wouldn’t a wolf pb hammer a town LLD here if those 2 are the team?

I am going to stop using abbreviations, because you are not understanding me.

I do not think that the team is Stephen + PinkBall.

I think that it is possible that it is 3rd party pinkball and then group scum Stephen + maybe Penguin Power.

Pink Ball cannot lol!hammer in that world. He is outed.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:56 am

Ali you have yet to give me a single scenario where your path wins, but mine loses.

And you refusing to consider my path WHEN IT WINS IF YOU ARE RIGHT TOO.

Is incredibly frustrating.

Like, you unilaterally have decided what we are doing today, and are not treating this like the team game it is supposed to be.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:59 am

In post 1885, Wavelength wrote: Ali you have yet to give me a single scenario where your path wins, but mine loses.

Like in all worlds you have presented, it wins on the exact same DAY PHASE. We do not even delay the win.

If it is LLD+PB, then we win tomorrow with an LLD kill. If it is me+LLD, then your plan was already kill LLD->PB->Me. So switching to PB->LLD-ME wins in exactly the same amount of time for both teams you have said are possible.

But if you are WRONG, and I am RIGHT, you are throwing this game for no reason other then you deciding that we are doing it in your order just because.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:00 am

In post 1886, Alisae wrote: He’s not a third party.

I disagree, and you are not willing to budge to cover my concern? Even though from your POV, it should be exactly the same?

from your POV there should be NO BENEFIT to doing it in your order, and even if you think that it is fruitless, you could do it just to make me feel better, instead of stripping me of all agency this day phase.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:02 am

In post 1889, Alisae wrote: Ur path is better, I’m not the person who you should be convincing here unless you really just want me to unvote.

I need your vote, so yes. I need you to convince you, and I need you to unvote.

And then I can talk to Flea.

I am genearlly assuming that I have LLD's vote by default, when the alternative is her own elim.

You are the one who gets to decide which path we are doing here.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:04 am

In post 1889, Alisae wrote:
In post 1885, Wavelength wrote: Ali you have yet to give me a single scenario where your path wins, but mine loses.

And you refusing to consider my path WHEN IT WINS IF YOU ARE RIGHT TOO.

Is incredibly frustrating.

Like, you unilaterally have decided what we are doing today, and are not treating this like the team game it is supposed to be.
Ur path is better, I’m not the person who you should be convincing here unless you really just want me to unvote.

You’re frustrated but I don’t entirely get how you think it could still be something like Sas + pp where I feel like I’ve explained where I’m coming from from d1 to now.

I don't think that your explenation for PB's play / role makes more sense then him being third party, and you are literally world building from a starting point that I dont agree with.

If I am right, and PB is 3rd party, you don't think that suddenly your solve path would be different?

That is what the PB flip gets us. The chance to start from the same place when trying to sort between LLD and SAS

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:05 am

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:05 am

ALI THIS IS WHY I FUCKING ASKED YOU TO UNVOTE

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:06 am

I didnt want you to accept responsibility, I wanted you to be willing to be a team player.

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:07 am

because someone you think is town is begging you not to ignore them

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:07 am

In post 1901, Pink Ball wrote: And I wanted to be a teamplayer but you kept calling me 3p

IF I AM WRONG, AND YOU ARE TOWN, THEN YOUR SOLVE OF ME + LLD WOULD HAVE STILL BEEN KILLED.

LIKE JESUS CHRIST

Wavelength · Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:08 am

I am logging off, fucking hell

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:15 am

I really did not expect to have to play this game anymore

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:16 am

In post 1897, Pink Ball wrote: I'm targeting SAS and bringing back PP to the game so game won't be over even if LLD flips town, so bye bye good night

Pink Ball, what changed your night action choices?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:25 am

I don't care. We should have killed pink ball for the last two day phases, and he is the elim for today.

It is possible that the last group scum is inside of him. Which could mean that all other elims are town elims, so he is the only correct elim.

If the last group scum is Enchant, even if we kill group scum enchant, then 3rd party Pink Ball one of us and wins.

If we kill town, then he eats one more and he wins.

Mechanically, Pink Ball is the ONLY correct elim.

Once again.

I am tired of not being listened to

VOTE: pinkball

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:29 am

In post 1918, Enchant wrote:
My ability didn't work. It means half of living players are evil.

Thinking on it, you claiming that your blashpehmous should be on, but its not, actually gets rid of the Ali scum paranoia that I had over the night, so thank you for that.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:30 am

Yeah, you just ninja'd me on that

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:32 am

If it is 2:1:1

Then if we kill mafia, we make the 3rd party win.

If we kill the 3rd party, and the people he kidnapped die, we make the mafia win.

If we kill the 3rd party, and the people he kidnapped are released, then we have a chance. This is the only path to a possible town victory.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:33 am

In post 1931, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 1920, Wavelength wrote: I really did not expect to have to play this game anymore
Why were you paranoid if you thought you wouldn’t play this game anymore?

I thought that you were going to eat me, but that did not mean that turned my brain off thinking about how Ali played last day phase.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:34 am

Like, I was your biggest threat, and I also had an invest, so you could claim to be trying to stop the mafia kill.

So I expected you to take it.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:36 am

My invest result was that you have submitted a killing action btw

But you already seems to have taken responsibility for the penguin kill, so pointless.

I lowkey expected that if I were to live the day, you would be claiming to have had your action fail again like last day phase, and I could use the info on if you submitted such an action, but :shrug:

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:37 am

PinkBall, from your POV, you seem to be calling me scum.

What is your answer for why Enchant's blasphemous ability is not working in that world view?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:38 am

In post 1935, Pink Ball wrote: You thought I would eat you, yet you asked me why did I change my targets when I said I’d target SAS

You did not do what you claimed you would do.

You also did not do what I expected you to do.

So yeah, I am asking for you to explain your actions lmao

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:46 am

@Flea, given the facts:

1) The game is currently still happening, and
2) Enchant has claimed that they tried to use their blasphemous ability, and it failed

There are only 2 possible worlds that we live in.

A) We are currently at 2:1:1, and since there is a third party that lives here, it is pink ball. OR
B) We are at 3:1, and Enchant is lying about his blasphemous ability.

That is it.

Those are the only two possible mechanical worlds at this point. However, I don't think that I am ever voting Enchant this day phase, because I am convinced that Pink Ball is third party.

Pinkball is trying to claim that he is town, and that I am scum, which is not a possible world for us, because either the game would be over because me+you/enchant are at parity, and the game would be over, or it is just me, and enchant's blasphemous ability should be on.

Pink ball is once again, just calling me scum, because he needs people to not listen to me.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:47 am

In post 1939, Wavelength wrote: you seem to be calling me scum.

What is your answer for why Enchant's blasphemous ability is not working in that world view?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:48 am

In post 1943, Enchant wrote: Why you don't consider me.

I actually think you are most likely the last mafia, but killing you this day phase = losing the game to 3rd party Pinkball.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:49 am

If you are, claiming to have tried to use your blasphemous ability was a misplay, for what its worth.

You should have claimed to not have read enough of the game to use it.

That would have given you plausible deniability.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:49 am

Here is the mafia win con:

In post 779, SirCakez wrote: You win once the Mafia
control 50% of the population, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

We cannot be at 2:2

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:50 am

Anyways, we are a Flea Waiting Game at this point

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:51 am

In post 1950, Enchant wrote: Hey, i know how to solve situation i think.

What cha got?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:54 am

omg, with PP flipping mafia, and enchant messing up the blasphemous claim, that means I was fucking right about everything yesterday, and Ali just would not listen to me

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:55 am

In post 1954, Pink Ball wrote: I’m catching a flight right now Wave, give me some fucking time instead of reposting questions that I can’t answer at this moment

My question did not come with a deadline for you to answer.

Catch your flight, and come back when you have the time my dude.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:58 am

Moving to current page for flea.

In post 1942, Wavelength wrote: @Flea, given the facts:

1) The game is currently still happening, and
2) Enchant has claimed that they tried to use their blasphemous ability, and it failed

There are only 2 possible worlds that we live in.

A) We are currently at 2:1:1, and since there is a third party that lives here, it is pink ball. OR
B) We are at 3:1, and Enchant is lying about his blasphemous ability.

That is it.

Those are the only two possible mechanical worlds at this point. However, I don't think that I am ever voting Enchant this day phase, because I am convinced that Pink Ball is third party.

Pinkball is trying to claim that he is town, and that I am scum, which is not a possible world for us, because either the game would be over because me+you/enchant are at parity, and the game would be over, or it is just me, and enchant's blasphemous ability should be on.

Pink ball is once again, just calling me scum, because he needs people to not listen to me.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:07 am

Why are you considering town pink ball after your blasphemous ability failed?

If we are at 2:1:1, and Pink Ball's targets dont come back, then the town can never win at this point. We have already lost, and we are just king makers. Who ever we kill, the other wins.

So, the correct way to play at this point is under the belief that pink ball's targets come back if we kill him, because that is the only world where town can win.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:22 am

If the mod does not correct the win condition after it being pointed out to him, then I am going to assume that means it is the correct win condition. Or else the game is bastard.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:35 am

@enchant, who did you try to use your hated skill on, and why?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:51 am

No, I actually missed it. My bad.

In post 1915, SirCakez wrote: So i didn't really invested in searching for mafia: What point if we lose anyway lol.
I don't consider other options: If Pink evil, we just plainly lose.
If we rate likehood of mafia then i think i bet on this:
Flea>Wave>Alisae>Pink>Me

If you did not hunt for mafia, how did you come up with this ranking?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:01 pm

Also, standing questions for pinkball for when ever he is done traveling:

Why did you choose to take Ali>Enchant?
Why did you choose to kill PP, when you seemed pretty convinced that he was town last day phase?

Why is enchant not confirmed last scum from your PoV?
Like, why do you not think that Enchant's "we are in Elo not melo" claim is factually impossible if you are town, because it sure does look factually impossible if you are town from my PoV. (game would end if we are at 2:2, and his blasphemous should be up and running if we are at 3:1)

Why did you land on it being one of Me or Flea over the night?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:18 pm

If pinkball's targets do not come back, then we have lost already. And in that case, I agree that PB does not us kingmaking him. But given that is a 0% chance to win world, the right play is to ignore this possibility, and play towards the possible win.

If PB's targets come back (which seems at least plausible since we know that they are all in a hood via LLD), then killing PB directly should give us a chance to win. Like that seems like the best chance at having a path to victory we have left.

-----

If we no elim, and PB eats town, and Mafia shoots the other town, then the game wins with a Mafia win given the Mafia wincon. They would be at 50% of the population 1:1

If we no elim, and there is just the one disappearance (either PB eating mafia, or PB and the mafia hitting the same person), then we come back in tomorrow and just are left needing to vote out PB again.

What is the benefit of the no-elim that you are seeing that I am missing?

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:21 pm

I guess the PB could eat one of us, and then the mafia shoots pink ball.

And in that case, if Ali/Kokichi fall out and we are fine?

But I don't think that that is better then just guaranteeing that that happens.

If we kill Pinkball, and Ali and Kokichi fall out, we win.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:22 pm

If we kill pinkball, and ali and kokichi die with him, then we lose.

But in that world, we have already lost.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:37 pm

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:39 pm

I might just ride out the deadline, and if you guys want to let it go to no elim, more power to you.

I put everything I had in trying to convince Ali last day phase what we needed to do to win, and if that was not enough for you to see that I am town trying to actually win this game, then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:46 pm

Yeah. My bad.

I am sorry that i responded that way, but last day phase was really frustrating, and feeling like I am still not going to be listened to is frustrating me all over again.

I do feel like my arguments for what we need to do this day phase, last day phase, and even the one before that, were all pretty clearly fighting for a town win condition, but I have kept being ignored / argued against.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:48 pm

In post 1992, Wavelength wrote: I do feel like my arguments for what we need to do this day phase, last day phase, and even the one before that, were all pretty clearly fighting for a town win condition, but I have kept being ignored / argued against.

And like, I don't know how to show you that I am town any more then this.

So, yeah. You are wrong.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:51 pm

Part of the defeatism of 1990 was that I had already felt frustrated that Pinkball and Enchant were both arguing against what I think is objectively the right move (with very faulty arguments imo), but I had told myself that it was silly to get mad at them for playing to their win cons, and that is why I reached out to you.

But you also came back saying that we should not listen to me again today, and even have me down as scum, and.. yeah.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:55 pm

In post 1997, Pink Ball wrote: Wave, you're town, let me do my thing

Go for it.

You have your work cut out for you though.

You don't just have to convince me that you are town, but also give me a reason why killing town!you and releasing Ali/Kokichi is a bad outcome.

I am pretty sure they are both confirmed town at this point, so like, trading you for a confirmed town seems like it is always a good deal.

But, you can try to wow me if you want.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:46 pm

I don't know what I was expecting, but a 3rd party confession was not it. I do feel a bit vindicated at least

It's like 2 am, and I don't have the brain power to think this through atm. So for now at least I'll

UNVOTE:

I'll read that through again tomorrow and try to think through the possible worlds.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:28 am

In post 2032, Enchant wrote: What wave even claimed and what results?

My results were:
Night 2: Ircher had not tried to kill anyone
Night 3: Pink Ball is "The Dream Kid"
Night 4: Pink Ball has submitted a killing action.

I targetted Pink Ball night 4, because pink ball had claimed that they had attempted to release Kokichi and had been blocked, and was also claiming to attempt to release PP last night. So they were claiming to not have submitted any killing actions, but I did not actually think that they had the ability to bring anyone back, and thought that I could catch him in a lie if he had submitted a killing action at some point and claimed he hadn't.

Night 4, I also used the self watcher ability from Flea to check if I was redirected or not. No one targeted me.

In post 2034, Enchant wrote: Blatant fake, no objection meme.

Objection! is on my role PM lol. Its part of the flavor for my killing invest.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:29 am

In post 2048, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 1321, Wavelength wrote: Pinkball is "The Dream Kid"
Yeah here it is. I don’t know what to think about this. How did you act this night if you had the bunny mask??????

I have not used the bunny mask. I choose when to activate it, and felt like my invests were more important.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:33 am

In post 2019, Flea The Magician wrote: I lose either way honestly. I just don't want you to win after those awful hammers.

I guess I just still don't really understand why if this is your world view, you are voting for No Elim instead of voting for Pink Ball directly?

What series of night actions do you think could result in us winning if we no elim?

ftr, I am pretty sure that PinkBall's kill would stop the mafia kill if they cross shot, since it functions like a jailkeeper, and appears to have stopped night kills already

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:39 am

In post 2017, Pink Ball wrote: But yeah your best strat is to no vote here and redirect me and kill me and try to win on MELo tomorrow. I get that.

If scum had a redirector left, this is not how to play it btw.

They would redirect you to Me and then kill the other townie (or vice versa)

And the game would end 1:1 right then, no need for Melo.

But I seriously doubt that the redirector still has shots, because nothing has appeared to be redirected since N2

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:41 am

In post 2004, Flea The Magician wrote: Again, less of the emotional spearing.

I haven't said I'm not going to listen, I'm freaking clueless. I'm going on mechanics and probably getting kirby'd tonight.

That was just me explaining...

Also, I said that I was town surrounding that. I also made the argument for the world where we could possibly still win if we killed PB. Why not respond to those posts if those are the types of posts that you are looking for from me?

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:46 am

This game was so clear cut on the only possible right path last night, and now every thing is murky again :/

PinkBall, I am not really convinced that it has to be Flea from your argument.

It is confirmed that SAS/Enchant could do their hated + 1 more ability each night, because on nights 3/4 they used his hated ability AND sent a message.

But on Nights 1 and 2, he did not send a message, and there has so far been no explanation on why he would have sat on it.

So, that is how I was accounting for the missing scum actions on night 1 and 2. I just was not interested in casing Enchant when I was sure that killing you was the right path.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:50 am

In post 2062, Wavelength wrote: But on Nights 1 and 2, he did not send a message, and there has so far been no explanation on why he would have sat on it.

I kind of hate that the replacement happened, because we cannot even really ask Enchant why Stephen did not use his message ability nights 1/2

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:02 am

I mean, I don't think that the blasphemous thing is all that strong personally. Look at you, you were blasphemous 2 days in a row and here you are.

And the message thing is also super weak.

I was thinking like 2 shot redirect + those two that SAS claimed to this point, and the power of his blasphemous was that it did not count as his night action, but made it look like he was not doing anything else.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:05 am

In post 2067, Pink Ball wrote: Enchant is conftown and if he isn’t we just take the L and go on with our lives

We have actual evidence that his slot can submit at least 2 actions a night...

Like, its right there in the mod iso.

Your claim that it is flea would require fea to be handing out a mask night 1 AND stop Ali.

That would imply that the masks has a secret Bad Affect when fea handed them out in addition to the good effects we were told about, but I have not seen any sign that either mask given to me had a bad effect on me

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:08 am

All three of my results were correct, and one of my results was proven.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:11 am

And like, if you would care to read the game, you can go back and see me going from "WE MUST KILL IRCHER" to "I am not so sure that it is Ircher anymore" the night that I targeted him, and judge for yourself it I got a invest check on him that night or not.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:13 am

The fact that it was public/start of day made it fairly weak in the hands of scum imo.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:15 am

In post 2071, Wavelength wrote: Your claim that it is flea would require fea to be handing out a mask night 1 AND stop Ali.

That would imply that the masks has a secret Bad Affect when fea handed them out in addition to the good effects we were told about, but I have not seen any sign that either mask given to me had a bad effect on me

And you just skipped past this

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:32 am

Honestly, this is the biggest reason that I was thinking it could have been Stephen.

Right after Pink Ball claims, he immediately does not blelieve it, and says that PinkBall is just a serial killer

Spoiler:

However, once Pink Ball claims for Penguin, Stephen has a sudden change in tone:

Spoiler:

But then he goes back to only saying that PinkBall is a serial killer, and nothing about Penguin coming back.

Spoiler:

That middle set of spoilers is wildly out of place for the world view he is presenting in the first and the third spoiler.

I thought that Stephen got excited about the possibility of getting PP back, since he was solo scum at that point, and that bleed through into his posting.

But then he realized, that he needed to not look like he was focused on saving PP, so he fell back into only referring to PinkBall as a Serial Killer. He needed to look like a townie trying to kill the serial killer, and not like mafia trying to save his partner PenguinPower.

I honestly don't know the other explentation for him suddenly posting about saving PenguinPower, and then just as suddenly going back to exclusively saying that PinkBall is just a serial killer.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:44 am

In post 2078, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 2076, Wavelength wrote: The fact that it was public/start of day made it fairly weak in the hands of scum imo.
Yes, but combined with Marashu’s and PP’s roles scumteam would be loaded in a 9v3v1 were said 1 can scumside if they want.

Makes more sense to have a scum player that can rolestop but in order to do so, to give masks?

Think about it: the rolestops stopped when I targeted PP. Send a mask + rolestop and having to do the night kill? Flea became vanilla, makes more sense that what you’re proposing

I am still trying to understand what you are conceptualizing Flea's role to look like.

Is fea giving a mask to a townie AND also doing something bad to that townie? (ie, redirected Ali into Kokichi)

Or are you saying that fea was giving a mask to a townie and also putting a rolestop on fear partner?

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:47 am

I am gonna stop and think more.

I read stephens iso last day phase, and that is when I saw the tone shift about killing you.

I need to do a Flea iso read, but don't really have time for that right this second, so Ill stop arguing with you before I actually do that.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:48 am

In post 2081, Pink Ball wrote: I mean I’m personally involved in believing that SAS was scum voteparking me and not actually solving the game,

That was not my argument though.

My argument was that his tone shift in exactly 2 posts was a perspective slip when compared to the rest of his iso.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:00 am

The real issue with this day is that sorting between Enchant and Flea only even matters for this phase if I accept that your win con is survivor and not that of a serial killer.

Which is not something I get to *just* believe.

But I am lowkey avoiding working through that (because it seems hard) by talking about Flea and Enchant. I should probably flip those priorities tbh.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:20 pm

Having thought on it more today, I just don't think that I believe that your win con is that of a survivor.

Like it was a good claim and all, because it is possibly the only thing that you could have said to try to sway me when I was at

In post 1998, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1997, Pink Ball wrote: Wave, you're town, let me do my thing
Go for it.

You have your work cut out for you though.

You don't just have to convince me that you are town, but also give me a reason why killing town!you and releasing Ali/Kokichi is a bad outcome.

I am pretty sure they are both confirmed town at this point, so like, trading you for a confirmed town seems like it is always a good deal.

But, you can try to wow me if you want.

And its realty hard to believe that you just so happening to be the only possible thing that could sway me is more likely then you just stopping to come up with the only lie that could give you an out in that position.

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:24 pm

So I think that just puts me back at:

If your targets don't come back, we have already lost, and nothing matters.

But if your targets do come back, we need to kill you.

But also, no one else seems all that invested in killing you (for some reason) so I feel like I (once again) just don't have the votes to kill you

So :/

Wavelength · Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:26 pm

Anyways, its like 4 am and I really should be asleep.

Maybe I can wake up to Flea and Enchant both having a sudden change of heart / desire to kill you?

A boy can dream.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:14 am

Hey pinkball, wasn't I obvtown just a second ago? lol

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 am

If pinkball is a SK, and we vote for town or mafia, we lose.

If pinkball is a SK, and we no elim, then no matter who he eats over night he will claim tomorrow: "Welp, I was wrong. The person I just ate was revealed town to me, ___ has to be the last scum"

And we will have no idea if that is the truth, or if he ate mafia and needs us to miselim town, because his targets don't flip.

Like, from a SK!Pinkball PoV, whether he props his targets or not, then he has found his only possible path to victory and claimed accordingly.

I am also starting to think that PK is full bullet proof, and that is how he is supposed to win against scum this game.

Because scum trying to shoot PinkBall, and it failing, makes more sense to me then anyone here shooting Ali.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:26 am

In post 2078, Pink Ball wrote: Yes, but combined with Marashu’s and PP’s roles scumteam would be loaded in a 9v3v1 were said 1 can scumside if they want.

Pinkball, for the record, it was this post that pushed me over the edge back to you are most likely the SK wincon.

Because you being able to scum side, regardless of who the last scum is, is way too much power.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:34 am

In post 2106, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 2104, Wavelength wrote:
In post 2078, Pink Ball wrote: Yes, but combined with Marashu’s and PP’s roles scumteam would be loaded in a 9v3v1 were said 1 can scumside if they want.
Pinkball, for the record, it was this post that pushed me over the edge back to you are most likely the SK wincon.

Because you being able to scum side, regardless of who the last scum is, is way too much power.
A game being swingy is not too much power for any faction in particular. Your logic is getting worse

Pinkball: Enchant can't be scum with hated+Redirect because that is just too much power for the scum team if I can scum side,

Wave: Both options (Enchant with Hated+Redirect and Flea with rolestop) is too much power if you can scum side (so I don't think you can scum side),

Pinkball: A game being swingy is not too much power for any faction in particular. Your logic is getting worse.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:47 pm

In post 2113, Pink Ball wrote: Do you realize where the idea came from that you could bring my targets back to life by killing me

Yeah, I am aware.

I do think that the most likely game state is that you are a serial killer, and your targets die with you. But in that game state, we have already lost. So in order to play to my win con I basically have to ignore this possibility, and sort between the other options.

To just lay it all out there, from my PoV, here are all of the possible options:

1) You are a fancy SK, and town has already lost and we are just kingmakers.

I must ignore this possibility to play optimally

.
2) You are a Kidnapper Serial Killer, and if we kill you Ali and Kokichi come back, so if we want to win, we need to kill you
3) You have a survivor win con + Enchant scum. You have declared that you will never vote Enchant, and even if you are wrong on Flea you are eating me. In this world, we have already lost, and there is no way for me to win.

This is now also a possibility that I must ignore to play optimally

4) You are a survivor win con + Flea scum. I need to vote flea in order to win.

So, option 2 and option 4 are the only options that I get to even consider when choosing what to do today, despite option 1 being the most likely from my PoV.

I think that your targets coming back is at least plausible now that we have proven that your targets are sitting in a hood with you instead of in the dead thread. I do not really think that that is *more likely* to be true then option 1, but plausible at least.

I do however, think that it is *more likely* to be true then you just so happening to be the exact role you needed to be to have a fighting chance today + you are a role that could potentially scum side in this game, because that seems unbalanced + my reads are flipped (only to be corrected by the 3rd party who has no incentive to actually get it right today).

I just think that "since his targets are in a hood, maybe the come back" is more likely then all three of those other things being true.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:48 pm

In post 2113, Pink Ball wrote: I'm in a better negotiation position than you are.

I don't actually think that this is true btw.

Like, I think that voting Flea means we lose. And you are now threatening me that if I don't do that, then you are going to eat me and we will lose.

That is not a negotiating position. Its a meaningless threat.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:51 pm

But like, either way, you have to fight to survive.

So like, I get it. You are doing what you have to do.

But you making the exact arguments that you need to survive are not really very effective at convincing me that I am wrong, just that you are fighting to survive.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:56 pm

I have generally come to the conclusion that scum!Flea does not fight me on killing you by putting fear no elim vote down once you voted for fear.

While Enchant has been doing the same thing you have been doing for the last several phases, which is calling me scum any time I make an argument that he is not town. Which feels like he is just calling me scum because he needs people to not listen to me.

And also, it lines up with how I was sorting this game last day phase / over the night anyways.

So like, it really does feel like you just came and threatened me with "You better vote out the person you think is town (and you lose), or I am going to kill you during the night (and you lose)"

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:01 pm

In post 2122, Pink Ball wrote: And yes, I am threatening you, wasn't that clear enough?

I was not pointing out that it was a threat (it was clear) I was pointing out why the threat seemed meaningless.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:05 pm

In post 2125, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 2121, Wavelength wrote: "You better vote out the person you think is town
(and you lose)
, or I am going to kill you during the night
(and you lose)
"
I don't understand what you wanted to say here then

The point that I was making was that both options presented to me had the same likely out come from my pov, and therefore the threat is meaningless.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:08 pm

Oh gee, how silly of me for not taking the Claimed Not Town Player at their word lmao

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:09 pm

Also, just to touch back on you claiming to be relaying info from Ali to me about forcing me to handle today the way that she/you want.

That frankly makes me want to dig my heels in even more after how last day phase went.

I am not all that inclined to say "ah yes, lets do what ali wants instead of what I want" atm.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:11 pm

In post 2130, Pink Ball wrote: I repeat: you believe that if I die Kokichi and Ali could come back because I said so, but you don't believe that they would die with me because I said so

No.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:16 pm

In post 2132, Wavelength wrote:
In post 2130, Pink Ball wrote: I repeat: you believe that if I die Kokichi and Ali could come back because I said so, but you don't believe that they would die with me because I said so
No.

To expound, I have already said that I think that the Most Likely world that we live in is that you are a SK and they don't come back.

But that just means that we are kingmakers this day phase, and you need me to 3p side > scum side.

And I am quite literally having to argue for the path that has a chance to win in the world that I don't think is the most likely.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:21 pm

I am gonna be real with you, I don't know what you can possibly say to me at this point to convince me that you have a survivor win con.

So, it does seem like we are at the point where we cannot work together.

So really, seems like our goals at this point should probably be focused on getting Flea/Enchant on board with our respective goals for the day.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:21 pm

VOTE: Pinkball

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:26 pm

In post 2133, Pink Ball wrote: are you going to reevaluate at some point of this phase

Also, I did re-evaluate. You just did not like where I landed, because my path forward means that you lose.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:30 pm

In post 2137, Pink Ball wrote: "I have two alternatives: either I already lost and I'm a kingmaker, or I can still win if I believe the 3p"

And you keep trying to say that my thoughts on what possible worlds there are that we can win require believing you. They dont.

This is what I think the most likely world is:

You have a Serial Killer win con.

And your targets die with you when you die.

The only way that we win is if one of those two statements are wrong, and I am asking myself which one I think could possibly be the incorrect one. And I think that the second half is more likely to be wrong then the first one.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:35 pm

I don't know, with the threat that you might eat Flea, fea might be willing to help me kill you of going to night and being eaten.

I lowkey don't understand why Flea thinks that a No Elim is better then killing you out right from either alignment's perspective.

And that is what I am hoping that they will see that eventually, or at least take the time to explain why they think that a no elim is good.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:37 pm

And now it is just a matter of whether Flea checks in to do that before or after Enchant shows up to hammer the No ELim.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:40 pm

In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win

In the world that you have a survivor win con, and you can win with the town if you kill the person that you believe to be the last scum.

But thanks for confirming that you are not thinking of how you win with a Survivor win con lol

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:43 pm

In post 2150, Pink Ball wrote: Fuck off Wave

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:44 pm

In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win

In post 2149, Wavelength wrote:
In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win
In the world that you have a survivor win con, and you can win with the town if you kill the person that you believe to be the last scum.

But thanks for confirming that you are not thinking of how you win with a Survivor win con lol

I can quote things too

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:52 pm

In post 2155, Pink Ball wrote: "I need fae's shot to win" is EXACTLY what a survivor's win con looks like.

Not it doesnt.

If your wincon is a Survivor, then eating scum = a guaranteed win.

IF your wincon is a Survivor, eating town = a chance at winning.

Scum could shoot you, meaning you lose. Or you and scum could double up leading to a 1:1:1 day tomorrow.

So "I need fae's shot to win" means "Killing scum does not = I win" I.E. You don't have a survivor win con.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:56 pm

But you said that you NEEDED Fea's shot to win.

Fea shooting Enchant in the scenario you presented does not help your win con over that of just killing scum. It would only help Flea.

Anyways, that slip has made me feel way more confident in my belief that your win con is that of a SK.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:58 pm

In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win

This does not say "Fea won't shoot me, because I am scum siding with Fear"

It says IN WHAT WORLD would you eat flea, because you NEED fea's shot to win.

Those are not equivalent.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:02 pm

If you are a survivor who can townside like you are claiming, then eating the last scum is an INSTANT WIN.

If that is true, then you DO NOT NEED the scum's shot to win at this point.

So yeah, your statement on "in what world would I do that", I think that you just slipped that it is not true.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:05 pm

Talking to you about this is pointless, because you can never stop arguing that I am wrong.

But it for SURE made me way more confident in my view of the game.

So thanks

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:11 pm

In post 2171, Enchant wrote: No i mean, i think if Pink Ball still wants to help town and survivor, he can just... Uh... Kill mafia at night.

Right. If he is a survivor, then killing mafia means that he wins. Right? But:

In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win

In post 2149, Wavelength wrote:
In post 2148, Pink Ball wrote: In what world would I eat Flea after a no elimination... I need fae's shot to win
In the world that you have a survivor win con, and you can win with the town if you kill the person that you believe to be the last scum.

But thanks for confirming that you are not thinking of how you win with a Survivor win con lol

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:16 pm

In post 2179, Enchant wrote: What point of reading? You already voted no-lim and said we lose.

So yeah, let's go with that. I replaced, I don't care.

He wants you to hammer the No Elim vote.

And I don't.

Just know that he is never a survivor here, so regardless of your alignment, he is never siding with you. He is always just fighting for his own individual win con.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:19 pm

He is saying that in some games, no elim takes 1 less to hammer when on evens. Which is not something that I have actually even considered.

I actually think that I have seen before? But I have no idea if Cakez does it that way or not.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:20 pm

I guess I'll pm the mod

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:22 pm

In post 2189, Enchant wrote: We can ask.

But it's done because if half of ppl vote no-lim, then... What? Just wait for deadline ticking? Lol.

No, like I said, I did not think of it before, but the moment you said it it sounded familiar.

I've sent the PM, so guess we just have to wait and see

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:30 pm

In post 2184, Pink Ball wrote: I don't want him to hammer, I WANT HIM TO READ.

STOP BENDING FUCKING REALITY

Just btw, pink ball, I am not even really sure why this post upset you?

Flea was voting for a No Elim. You voted for a No Elim. It seems reasonable that you now want one of me/enchant to eventually hammer that, and you were not getting me there.

I feel like you wanting Enchant to hammer no elim this phase is not even a disagreeable take?

Unless you read my post as quick-hammer maybe?

Idk, but I am genuinely confused by where this post came from.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:33 pm

Enchant, I am going to take a page out of Pinkball's playbook and ask:

Is there ever a chance that you are voting for Pinkball this day phase? Like, are you reading my posts and considering that possibility? Or am I wasting my time?

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:34 pm

In post 2197, Enchant wrote: Wave you acknowledge that he doesn't need our hammer?

Like he can just stale before end of deadline.

I am aware that timing out the day is another way for him to achieve a no elim, yes.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:34 pm

In post 2198, Wavelength wrote: Enchant, I am going to take a page out of Pinkball's playbook and ask:

Is there ever a chance that you are voting for Pinkball this day phase? Like, are you reading my posts and considering that possibility? Or am I wasting my time?

And same for Flea when ever fea comes back to the thread

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:38 pm

Like, I feel like arguing that we kill Pinkball is the only way to play to a potential win con.

But also, you (enchant) seem like you are not even reading most of the posts of this game.

And Flea has also not engaged with me when I asked a few times why they even think that No Elim is good here.

I have also not really sat down and truly figured out if it makes sense for scum to be willing to compromise on killing pink ball > no elim here? I should probably think it through from that PoV too.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:39 pm

The only person who has actually be engaging with me this phase has been the 3rd party lmao

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:40 pm

In post 2202, Pink Ball wrote: You're either scum convincing the remaining town to vote with you, or town expecting that the remaining scum votes with you

In post 2201, Wavelength wrote: I have also not really sat down and truly figured out if it makes sense for scum to be willing to compromise on killing pink ball > no elim here? I should probably think it through from that PoV too.

You don't say?

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:42 pm

In post 2205, Enchant wrote: Killing Pink Ball only makes sense if his targets come back.

Yes.

That has been my argument.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:46 pm

idk

But I need both of you, and I gotta start somewhere

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:46 pm

In post 2207, Enchant wrote: Okay presuming you get my vote. But you really expect support from Flea?

This seemed like a more likely possibility when Pinkball was pushing Flea / threatening to eat Flea, then it does now that his vote has moved over to me.

But we shall have to see

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:51 pm

I actually ran the numbers, and I am not all that sure that which ever of you is scum is actually better off with a no elim. Like:

If we kill Pinkball and Ali/Kokichi die, that is a win for you.
If we kill Pinkball and Ali/Kokichi come back, that is a 4p melo

If we no elim, you can lose if PB eats you.

So, even if you are scum, you can agree with me?

Just say that it is because of all of the other stuff I said lol

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:51 pm

In post 2210, Enchant wrote: Why you not consider no-lim strongly better though?

What makes no-lim a better option?

I have asked you and flea both this (while explaining what I saw the benefits were to killing pinkball) and neither of you answered

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:07 pm

In post 2215, Pink Ball wrote: Scum!Wave however knows that he loses if we no vote 'cause I'm targetting him so he can't win if I'm a Survivor or a Killer.

Ah yes, lets explain my actions using a motivation that was not even there for most of the time that I have been doing those actions.

Like, I had this stance even when you said that you were sure that I was town and that flea was scum.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:11 pm

Here is the issue that I see with no elim.

If only his kill goes through, then we come back to 3p elo tomorrow. No matter who he ate, he claims that they were confirmed town to him when he ate them, and he was wrong, and it is ____.

And we will have no way to distinguish between:

Pinkball ate the last mafia and is lying
vs
Pinkball and the last mafia doubled up on the same target

And we will be back at having the exact same argument on whether he has a SK win con or if he has a Survivor win con.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:12 pm

The other options are the same for both killing pinkball or doing a no elim.

Either we lose the game on the spot
or
We come into a 4p Melo with a confirmed townie

But doing a no elim adds in that third option.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:14 pm

But if you guys are set on doing a no elim, I literally don't have the power to stop you.

I will also admit, that at least a portion of my conviction on Killing Pinkball > No Elim comes from having tried and failed to kill Pinkball for the last 2 consecutive day phases, and not really wanting to fail at that again.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:17 pm

In post 2221, Enchant wrote:
In post 2217, Wavelength wrote: Here is the issue that I see with no elim.

If only his kill goes through, then we come back to 3p elo tomorrow. No matter who he ate, he claims that they were confirmed town to him when he ate them, and he was wrong, and it is ____.

And we will have no way to distinguish between:

Pinkball ate the last mafia and is lying
vs
Pinkball and the last mafia doubled up on the same target

And we will be back at having the exact same argument on whether he has a SK win con or if he has a Survivor win con.
Well, yes. Exactly. Situtation will not really change.

But we will give chance if he is real survivor though and eats mafia. If not, well, just vote him and then roll for "If dying players can come back".

What ever. I guess I am failing for the third time in a row

VOTE: No Elim

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:18 pm

UNVOTE:

I got cold feet

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:19 pm

I'm gonna not vote while I am frustrated, and come back tomorrow

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:38 pm

I was laying in bed losing the battle with insomnia once again, and I was wondering if I really am just overly focused on killing pinkball because of the last day phase.

But that lead me to asking "how do we handle 3p elo if that is where we end up tomorrow?" But like... it doesn't work.

If pink ball and the last mafia double up, and tomorrow is 1:1:1, how does the last townie vote pinkball, without getting crossvoted in return -- and therefore allowing the last scum to hammer the townie for a scum win? Like what do we even do?

So voting out Pinkball tomorrow only works if Pinkball eats scum tonight. There is no and "then roll for "If dying players can come back"" if it does not work out.

It also adds the lose condition of : Pinkball and Mafia target different townies.

Both of those lose states (double deaths tonight and 1:1:1 tomorrow) -- are avoided by killing pinkball directly today.

So no,I don't think that I can vote no elim.

And my mission is now to convice mafia that killing pink ball is better voting no elim lmao

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:39 pm

If the day ends with no elimination, Pinkball is not going to set up a joint win with you.

He is not a survivor.

Not only is he not going to set up a joint win,

he is going to be hunting for you.

If he kills a townie, he loses the game.

Either you kill him (and he loses) OR you target different people (and he loses because of your win con wording) OR you both kill the same townie (and he loses the moment he cross votes with a townie and gives you the hammer)

So, to be clear, if the game goes to a no elim, he is going to spend the night coming up with his best guess for mafia, and try to eat you. And then tomorrow he is going to argue that you were town, and that he is still a survivor, and then try to miselim one last townie for the win.

That is his only path to victory, and it is over your dead body.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:48 pm

And to hopefully convince a townie.

Pinkball is not a survivor. The only way that we win this game is if pinkball gives us back Ali and Kokichi when he dies. That is it. So we must assume that it will happen. If we kill him directly, then 2 confirmed townies will pop out and tomorrow we get to actually do Elo with a confirmed town.

If we no elim, and:

The mafia and Pink ball kill us both.

The Mafia wins.

The mafia and Pink ball target the same one of us. Tomorrow at 1:1:1, and when one of us vote PB and he crosses with us,

the mafia will win.

* (possible third option)
Pinkball kills mafia, and then tries to get a miselim tomorrow. If we vote him out tomorrow, we win.

A no elim is betting the game on Pinkball finding the last mafia. But does that really seem more likely that he can land it, then we can do tomorrow? With either Ali or Kokichi confirmed town out here with us?

---------

* The third option is not so clear cut, so it is gonna get its own section:

If Pinkball hits a townie, and the mafia tries to kill Pinkball.

This looks like it could be a reasonably good outcome. But now I am going to ask a question: "where was the night 5 mafia kill?" I don't think that it makes any sense for the mafia to have killed Ali > Pinkball or Me last night.

PinkBall was a threat to the last mafia AND pinkball had PenguinPower inside of him. Why would the mafia leave a claimed serial killer, who was claiming that their partner would come back if he died, alive?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the mafia tried to kill Pinkball, and it failed because he is bulletproof. I am not actually convinced that the third option is even possible, and if those night actions were submitted, it would result in the 1:1:1 split for 3p.

Wavelength · Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:50 pm

That's it. If either of you are still all in on No Elim, then so be it.

But I can at least say that I tried.

Its 4 am again, and I should not be awake.

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:55 am

In post 2233, Flea The Magician wrote: Pinkball shoot mafia, mafia go bye bye, tomorrow is 2vs1 ez win. I don't believe they come back

You know, this is the most distilled reason why you are arguging for a no elim, and I think is the first time I have actually seen something that at least made sense on why you are even arguing for it

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:57 am

Maybe I have been over complicating it, by thinking about all the possible worlds, and trying to account for all of them, and every time I run into new loss states, shying away from it.

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:58 am

In post 2236, Flea The Magician wrote: I mean I havent read tbh, i just went to last page and skimmed.

Do you want me to give you time to read, or should I just vote no elim?

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:02 am

In post 2234, Pink Ball wrote: All his opening and ending statements are performative, like he stopped playing mafia and became a lawyer trying to convince a jury.

I do actually feel like this is quite literally what I was doing with those posts, I hit a point where I thought "convince both the townie and the scum that this is the right path" and so I went into "make the most convincing cases mode"

But like, I was not hiding that. So it is funny to see you grab those snippets like a "gatcha"

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:03 am

In post 2233, Flea The Magician wrote: Pinkball shoot mafia, mafia go bye bye, tomorrow is 2vs1 ez win. I don't believe they come back.

I actually think that I would have saved a lot of time and energy if these exact words had been typed out like a day or so ago lol

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:05 am

Its okay pink ball, we are going for the no elim, so you don't need to keep arguing with me.

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:06 am

@Ali and Kokichi

At least do your best in helping him aim

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:13 am

In post 2247, Pink Ball wrote: I'm aiming you and Ali agrees, Kokichi is talking about hopes and despair since the begining of this phase

Sad if true.

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:24 am

In post 2244, Pink Ball wrote: It's not a "gatcha", is that your tone changed because now you don't believe what you're saying

The funny thing is that I actually did not really believe the mafia argument, but I felt like I needed to convince them anyways. Because if I am right about it being Enchant, he can fairly safely go for the no elim because I doubt you ever actually shoot him. But I had to dance around actually talking about your reads, because I thought I needed possible scum him on board too, so it was written as a scare tactic for the scum.

But I did full heartedly believe the town post. I pulled out a note book and outlined every possible outcome for where your shot landed and where the mafia shot ended up. Like we start at 1:1:2, and then who dies and what the numbers mean if Ali/Kokichi pop out. And then what that Elo looks like the next day.

And I kept hitting loss states.

But with Flea's post that I quoted, it dawned on me that I was putting too much stock into the idea that "THE ONLY WAY THAT WE WIN IS IF ALI AND KOKICHI COME BACK."

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:28 am

In post 2250, Wavelength wrote: And I kept hitting loss states.

I was seeing the:

If they both take out townies, we lose
If they double up, then we lose in the 1:1:1
If mafia hits pinkball, and he is bullet proof, then we are back at 1:1:1 and we lose.

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:50 am

VOTE: No elim

Wavelength · Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:54 am

I got the feeling that you are saying that you are going to shoot me in order to keep the mafia from shooting you.

Which, is a reasonably good plan.

But the mafia should 100% shoot you, and hope that you miss them.

But I could not say that out loud before you voted.

Anyways, good night.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:26 am

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:27 am

Pinkball, are you claiming you did not act, or that your action failed?

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:28 am

Also,

I am VLA until the 25th

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:47 am

In post 2275, Pink Ball wrote: say that scum shot me and that I'm a full BP and that obviously makes me a SK

I was actually thinking about Enchant's comments on Flea no killing.

Which looked to me like he could have been laying the ground work for that argument today if you did eat me.

But no, I did not do anything to stop your shot

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:49 am

It was a weird comment at the end of the day.

But yes, you being BP could also explain the lack of a mafia kill.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am

In post 2278, Enchant wrote: You still trying to pull i am mafia?

I mean, it literally has to be one of you or flea.

And yes, I am thinking that you are the scum and the flea is the town of the two of you.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:44 am

In post 2284, Enchant wrote: And i stop Pink from eating you because?

I think that he holstered.

He told you and flea that he was going to target me. If one of you are scum, and listened to him, and he ate me, then the game would have gone to 1:1, and the scum would win.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am

We already know that he has holstered once already this game, and then claimed that it failed.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:47 am

In post 1316, Pink Ball wrote: Because my action failed; I can't bring someone back if the dream dimension isn't full.

I targeted SAS and released Kokichi.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:51 am

It is almost like you are not town, and I have to look at your statements and the rest of the game and determine what it true or not. Wild.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am

In post 1332, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1331, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 1327, Wavelength wrote: -Pink Ball is lying to stay alive
I had a more incendiary reaction when I read this but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: what are you implying with this?
That there is a possibility that you are just a janitor/serial killer, and you needed to claim your action action failed since you could not actually bring kokichi back to the game.

(also I deduced it that day too lol)

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:56 am

I meant that as evidence that you stop and consider the benefits of a holster. It is something in your wheel house.

But what ever.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:58 am

@mod

What are the rules behind no elim -> anti town holstering -> no elim

Is there a max number of cycles? At some point do eliminations / night kills become compulsory? Does the game end in a draw after so many cycles?

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:59 am

In post 2295, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 2292, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1332, Wavelength wrote:
In post 1331, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 1327, Wavelength wrote: -Pink Ball is lying to stay alive
I had a more incendiary reaction when I read this but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: what are you implying with this?
That there is a possibility that you are just a janitor/serial killer, and you needed to claim your action action failed since you could not actually bring kokichi back to the game.
(also I deduced it that day too lol)
So? You didn’t know it back then, you just speculated about it.

And now that you mention this, it’s even more clear that you thought that I targeted you that night. So this was a slip after all!

Are you arguing that I am untargetable ? Ascetic?

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:01 pm

In post 2295, Pink Ball wrote: So? You didn’t know it back then, you just speculated about it.

I am just annoyed that everytime I present what I think is happening in this game, you are boiling it down to believing/not believing you, instead of me looking at everything I know in the game and coming up with my best answer

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:08 pm

I think that the most likely thing that happened last night was double holster, which is just annoying because I am lowkey ready for this game to be over.

Also, me being ascetic does not answer how ali and dragons both failed night 1, nor how I ended up with Flea's mask. But go off I guess.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:09 pm

Anyways.

Gonna wait for mod answer on how this plays out if we keep submitting a no elim.

Back to my VLA

pedit: no, I mean the mask that flea claimed they sent to the Dragons.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:18 pm

This:

In post 2253, Enchant wrote:
In post 2249, Pink Ball wrote: If you're scum, I win, if you're town, Flea shoots Enchant to avoid WIFOM, I win
Or Flea doesh't risk you being SK and holster, then votes you out.

Or this:

In post 2277, Wavelength wrote: But yes, you being BP could also explain the lack of a mafia kill.

But the thing is enchant, SOMEONE either holstered or shot into a BP Pinkball.

So like, asking why you did it only matters if you have a better reason to why me or flea would do it or why you have a good argument why you SPECIFICALLY wouldn't do it.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:47 pm

In post 2309, Enchant wrote: I think we just should no-lim again idk

Just vote fast night this time, because i did and bruh

I am kind of waiting for the mod answer to my question before deciding what to do today.

Wavelength · Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:01 pm

Oh, I used my flavor shot in Enchant. He is Stephen A Smith.

I did not expect a useful answer for either flea or enchant since both have had parts of their flavor confirmed at this point ("blasphemous" and the masks)

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:48 am

I have not idea what you opened the day with talking about the bunny mask.

I used it last night, but targeted flea.

VOTE: pinkball

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:49 am

I am still VLA, so not really ready for a 1v1, but I will be checking in if you have any questions Enchant.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:50 am

In post 2343, Enchant wrote: Why you used it.

Because I was out of shots for everything else, and figured why not.

It was a fruit vendor

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:52 am

In post 2346, Enchant wrote: Let me put simple.

You used Bunny Mask which confirms you don't perform NK... Now?

I don't think that I understand the question.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:54 am

That night I was leaning Ali as the last scum, and she had already claimed that she had tried to kill someone, so I did not think that that ability would help.

But I thought that you were lying about what actions you had been doing

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:58 am

My actions were:

Psudo-inno result on Ircher, who was on the chopping block. I don't think that I give him that life line if I was scum.

Flavor cop check on the person that I most thought was lying about their flavor (Pinkball), but he was telling the truth.

Checking to see if Pinkball was lying about submitting a killing action, because he claimed he was going to "release" someone, and I wanted to be able to say "He is LYING! He submitted a killing action" if they just died.

Random Flavor cop because it seemed useless
Use the Bunny Mask.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:00 am

I honestly did not realize that the bunny mask would clear me of trying to night kill, until just now, because I do not have a night kill.

I was just thinking of the fact that a fruit vendor seemed useless, and that it would stop my invests.

Which actually makes me feel kinda dumb, ngl.

But, if I was scum I would have used it last night to clear myself. There was no reason to wait a night, if I was not killing last night anyways.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:04 am

I caught Marashu, I tried to save Ircher, I tried to save LLD.

I have been fighting protown this whole game.

Maybe I have been suboptimal with my night actions, because I was overly focused on killing Pinkball after failing that one day phase, but i don't know what to tell you.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:05 am

In post 2360, Pink Ball wrote: Wave stop trying to convince the conftown that you are town, be honest for once

I agree that enchant is confirmed town, and you/ali were right in the enchant v flea argument.

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:05 am

In post 2363, Pink Ball wrote: You didn't catch Marashu, Ali and Dragons caught him and it became inevitable to unvote him. Don't lie Wave

I was all over Marashu before that

Wavelength · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:11 am

Enchant, you know 100% that Pinkball is not town.

He has thrown away all pretense that he is a survivor at this point. If he is a survivor, and I am scum, he votes you to win on the spot. Not doing so would be PLAYING AGAINST WIN CON. But he is not doing that, because he is not a survivor, and I am not scum, so he cannot do that. When evaluating Pinkball, the options are : he is a serial killer playing to win con, or he is breaking site rules not playing to win con.

I am town, and I feel like my iso makes it very clear, but I also don't know how much of it you have even read :/

But if you think that there is even a 1% chance that I am town, you have to vote pinkball here