Weird Dreams Mafia I [Gone]

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame

preliminary nightmare vote for now

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli

[DragonEater70]

Botanical Rat is very towny.

Temporal Lich's #34 looks like campaigning to be placed in the Nightmare?

Don't really see it.

I'd say Botanical Rat is null with maybe an iota of town.

34 was me trying to explain the nightmare mechanic, and saying I'd put people who are good at solving the game in the nightmare as that's how to get the most town benefit from that mechanic in my opinion

pedit: good question... I can't answer that myself sadly.

Agreed.

Botanical Rat is very towny.

Temporal Lich's #34 looks like campaigning to be placed in the Nightmare?

Do you think they are good at solving?

No, I don't know them, but they're nearly the only person who's actually solving so far and certainly the person doing the most so far.

Actually it feela you are solvong as well.

HURT: Enchant

Mmm power

VOTE: Enchant

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame

preliminary nightmare vote for now

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli

I have some questions

did you eat a baby dragon, Mr frog?

or maybe the frog is very large and could eat a big dragon

Did you 70 dragons or are you the 70th frog who ate a dragon?

please help me with my so many serious questions

I probably ate a baby dragon.
The 70 comes from the *tortoise*'s age.

[DragonEater70]

Ebwop: this is not whatasapp
Imagine there were bold tags around the word tortoise.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

[DragonEater70]

oh and also can you write 1 line why you town read each of those 4 people you voted for?

I just sheeped Temporal lich with StD.
Kawaii town pings me for paystyle.
TP is trying to gamesolve and be a town leader
Explained the rest I think.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I surprise you, but in most cases roles like these doesh't work in ELO so your logic are faulty.

Why wouldn't it? Ans also wouldn't mod say so in advance?

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I'd argue that town potentially losing in elo just because a particular member of their faction is alive over the others. (I.e. Gimli just gets autohammered by scum in elo and loses)
Although it's also just fairly standard procedure to disable voting manipulation in elo anyway, so doesn't really mean much either way.

May be relevant for gimli to confirm whether or not his role is making him hated or if it's something else.

Good point.
@Gimli is it your role?

[DragonEater70]

Because it forces police elimination on player which is unfun.

Mod probably say it. In Role PM. Did you ask Gimli?

I just did

[DragonEater70]

I don't know who thinked that OMGUS is scummy and writed this on wiki (now people parrot this as universal scumread without thinking), but if someone thinks that selfvoting for PR is scummy, then they DESERVE the vote in response.

Self nightmare isn't scummy, it was mainly an RVS vote.

[DragonEater70]

Kyoko might be pocketing Eater.

Really? I literally didn't see any interaction directed at me from them.
But might've missed, will ISO them later.

[DragonEater70]

It's still bad

Idk.

I also don't like how you present yourself as tryong to avoid a vig trollshot when knowing you, you would give yourself vigshot at first opportunity.

[DragonEater70]

Wait do you mean that Kyoko saying fluffy thongs about my username is an attempt to pocket me? It's literally just fluff.

[DragonEater70]

It's still bad

Idk.

I also don't like how you present yourself as tryong to avoid a vig trollshot when knowing you, you would give yourself vigshot at first opportunity.

Anyone would give self vigshot at first opportunity because they are smartest/deserved it/it's funny/insert reason, it doesh't mean it's best for town.

Nah I would probably give mysepf cop or FN or something (I forgot what the abilities are so yeah).

[DragonEater70]

Enchant changing the story on their vote or Kyoko pocketing Eater?

Do you not think both is possible at once, why these mutually exclusive?

They are not, Empath is asking ehat TP is failing to see out of these two things.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I don't like this post.

1- hated modifier is usually not for ELO, vote modifiers get disabled on elo for obvious reasons most of time.
2 - We don't know what skills a scum player might have. It might be strong enough to justify the hated modifier.
3 - You're town hunting more than scum hunting

Would you call that your play style?

I don't know who thinked that OMGUS is scummy and writed this on wiki (now people parrot this as universal scumread without thinking), but if someone thinks that selfvoting for PR is scummy, then they DESERVE the vote in response.

Self nightmare isn't scummy, it was mainly an RVS vote.

This sounds a bit like panicking, the vote was initially done on a serious context/post. Why would you drop a random vote in this:

Botanical Rat is very towny.

Temporal Lich's #34 looks like campaigning to be placed in the Nightmare?

Don't really see it.

I'd say Botanical Rat is null with maybe an iota of town.

34 was me trying to explain the nightmare mechanic, and saying I'd put people who are good at solving the game in the nightmare as that's how to get the most town benefit from that mechanic in my opinion

pedit: good question... I can't answer that myself sadly.

Agreed.

Botanical Rat is very towny.

Temporal Lich's #34 looks like campaigning to be placed in the Nightmare?

Do you think they are good at solving?

No, I don't know them, but they're nearly the only person who's actually solving so far and certainly the person doing the most so far.

Actually it feela you are solvong as well.

HURT: Enchant

Mmm power

VOTE: Enchant

So I feel like you're saying its RVS just to get away from a discussion about it

Kyoko might be pocketing Eater.

Really? I literally didn't see any interaction directed at me from them.
But might've missed, will ISO them later.

really?

1&2 - that's fair. I don't know if Gimli is town or not, I'll change my vote later cause too lazy atm.
3. I feel it's easier to townhunt at the beginning than scumhunt, because I struggle to get scum reads on people before we have big wagons and readlists and all this kinda stuff. But as the game develops it gets easier for me to scumhunt.

[DragonEater70]

And yeah the only interaction before this post was a bit of fluff and asking me to clarify my townreads. I don't see how this is pocketing.

As to RVS/not RVS - I don't know how other players see it on this site, but in my eyes there's several levels of RVS. I don't feel we've gotten to the point in the game yet where we can be 100% or even 90% certain someone is scum, but we can sorta vote people for semi serious reasons mainly to gauge reactions. I definitely didn't look at Enchant's post and said "okay they are scum", but neither was the vote completely random. It was somewhere in the middle.

[DragonEater70]

if you want a run-on sentence than sure

Save The Dragons has towny vibes (though has no real towny content), KawaiiKame also has towny vibes and also is pretty game solvey with their nightmare votes, DragonEater70 is quite solvey and good at townhunting, and Kyoko Kirigiri is quite towny and good at asking questions to gain info

pedit: uhh... who is TP?

Oh I meant TL, mb.

[DragonEater70]

And yeah the only interaction before this post was a bit of fluff and asking me to clarify my townreads. I don't see how this is pocketing.

Yeah that's fair,

it was just that you said it there like you don't remember that we had any kind of interactions with each other

Sorry, there are a lot of users here I don't really know so I might take a while to remember who everyone is.

[DragonEater70]

LAMIST? Lemme get acronyms

That means "look at me I'm so town", which is trying to appear town without actually doing towny things if I understand correctly.

pedit: lol I got ninja'd

LAMIST

I still have no real scumreads as of now as we still are in RVS stage (not everyone has posted yet!) and I haven't seen anything I'd consider truly scummy

Scummy.


VOTE: TemporalLich

HURT: imaginality, Morning Tweet, DragonEater, Enchant

Why do you these as scummy and LAMIST?I truly fail to see what you are seeing.

[DragonEater70]

idk what the nightmare mechanic is, is it a vigilante kill?

if people wanna give a good townie vig this thing I'll campaign for it and refer to the last open game that just ended where I was town cannibal and I killed a wolf in n1 and then I targeted the serial killer on n2. it was a hard carry and amazing vig play.

something to consider...

Yeah you were doing great, mate.

[DragonEater70]

enchant very likely town

why do you townread enchant?

I don't really see how enchant could be towny especially since enchant has no reads other than scumreading dragoneater for voting enchant because enchant self nightmare voted

yeah that was a good post I think. scumreading dragoneater's RVS vote and whatnot, I agree it was a bad vote even for RVS. I think enchant feels engaged and happy with the game in a way that mirrors his town game well. but its early, I'm just strong townreading it atm.

I actually agree that it was a bad RVS vote but since when do you scumread ppl for bad RVS vote? At best Enchant's counter vote is another bad RVS vote.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I'd argue that town potentially losing in elo just because a particular member of their faction is alive over the others. (I.e. Gimli just gets autohammered by scum in elo and loses)
Although it's also just fairly standard procedure to disable voting manipulation in elo anyway, so doesn't really mean much either way.

May be relevant for gimli to confirm whether or not his role is making him hated or if it's something else.

Good point.
@Gimli is it your role?

yes I'm hated as per my role. I don't very much enjoy the modguessing that this means I'm town, but I'll take the townreads nonetheless.

Okay do you prefer that I modguess you as being scum instead?

[DragonEater70]

Vc latwr

Is it already tomorrow for you? How much do you sleep???

[DragonEater70]

I don't want to place a serious vote until I hear from bianco, but I definitely have one in mind

I want you to talk about this RR

who you wanna vote?

DragonEater. I think his tone is off, and his assertion that being hated only makes sense as Town is very silly. I think he could potentially be attempting to pocket you

I didn't assert anything, I only theorized.
I have ZERO prior experience with vote manipulation mechanics, or with bastard games, or theme games in general. So you'll have to excuse me if I make incorrect meta-mod-guesses regarding mechanics.

Also IDK how my tone is off, go read my completed games it's how I talk in all of them.

[DragonEater70]

Anyway, UNVOTE: Enchant

[DragonEater70]

Morning.

Anything spicy in te 9 pages I'm not going to read?

VOTE: Rat
HURT: Flea The Magnificant, Gimli, Tweetie, Kyoko

A wagon on Enchant, an OMGUS, way too many people accusing me of being scummy for random stuff like voting Enchant or theorizing about what the hated thing means.

[DragonEater70]

I like the 'i'll wait for my partner' line cause it feels more organic hydra being townies but it's a thin read ofc

Idk how that soubds organic, that's exactly what I would say if I were scum playing hydra.

[DragonEater70]

@dragon: his suspicion of you is good though, so whatever I felt in that post was likely right

Wdym?

[DragonEater70]

Okay so. Scum being able to communicate with partners while in the Nightmare makes it absolutely IMPERATIVE that scum not be allowed in. Otherwise they can just shoot whoever gets the invention the same night.

Good point.

[DragonEater70]

@dragon: his suspicion of you is good though, so whatever I felt in that post was likely right

Wdym?

Nvm I understood what Gimli is saying.

I really don't know why BR is scumreading me but if you agree with it, fine.

[DragonEater70]

Currently I have a lot of towbreads, some of which are based on flimsier premises than others. I don't

really

have any scumreads, so I'm intending to do a bit of ISO diving on some players either later today or sometime tomorrow and see if I can dog our anything scummy.

[DragonEater70]

Fair point, Gimli.
So do you think scum is in the inactives?

[DragonEater70]

Currently I have a lot of towbreads, some of which are based on flimsier premises than others. I don't

really

have any scumreads, so I'm intending to do a bit of ISO diving on some players either later today or sometime tomorrow and see if I can dog our anything scummy.

Townreads*
Dig out*
I should really proofread my posts.

[DragonEater70]

Am I the only one who is not actually town reading gimli.

I think him going after TL was not fine I think still and he is not doing much rn but talking about how many town reads he has

Like I just want to know why is everyone town reading him

No, I null read them.

[DragonEater70]

I'm not there yet saying the lurkers are >rand scum, not in this game. I think people are posting the right things. I'm really only townreading you, RR and enchant rn. I'll move my vote later.

Okay.
Can you at least hurt me?

btw going now to review my last hurt vote and update it, brb.

[DragonEater70]

Apparently it wasn't RVS but can you explain why
it would be a bad vote for RVS?

It WAS a RVS vote?

Okay I really don't want to drag out this discussion, so I'm going to make a post about what I mean when I say RVS/Semi-RVS/Post-RVS, once and for all, and will refer all further inquiries to this post.

So, I have read several games on this site and also played a few so far. In my experience and analysis, the way games tend to develop out of RVS is in several stages. Unfortunately there is no developed vocabulary to refer to these stages, so I'm inventing my own:
1. RVS Phase I (Also simply called "RVS"): this is when people make votes based on completely random reasons, such as "I don't like your username", "this player was town last game so now they must be scum" or "they confirmed last so they scum".
2. RVS Phase II (I also call this "Semi-RVS" or "Post-RVS", but many people either call it RVS or ignore the existence of this stage completely): this is when people tend to start criticizing and analyzing other people's votes and actions, but often scumread people for things which really

shouldn't

be used as valid scumtells - unless it's in this stage. Examples include voting someone because their entrance is seen as scummy, or because they were the third person on an "RVS" wagon, or because they opposed someone's RVS vote and said it was scummy.

I personally think these reasons are not good enough to make a case against someone, and I consider this part of RVS, although a more advanced part where

useful

content is actually being generated through discussion. Unfortunately I don't believe many players share my opinions, and think that votes made during this stage are fully legitimate and people should be held 100% accountable for them

. It's this stage normally people start trying to solve.
3. Then of course there is the early stages of the actual deep game, which develop by reacting to and analyzing the things done in the phase II RVS. And this naturally develops into later stages of the deep game.
An important point to note is that some players might be in a more advanced stage than others at a particular time, the others having had less interactions in the game and therefore less reads and so on. These stages can mix.


Now, my vote on Enchant WAS NOT a Phase I RVS vote. But it WAS a Phase II RVS vote. I was not making a serious case against Enchant but I also wasn't picking a random target and voting them completely randomly.
Does that make sense?
I'd like us to move on from this because I want to concentrate on actually doing some real scumhunting.

With that said, Gimli is not giving the same game solving vibes he did in Open 874, and I feel all of their townreads are really bad (including the townread on me which is really unexplained except by "he's doing really well".
So I'mma VOTE: Gimli

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Kyoko, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Empath, DragonEater

[DragonEater70]

@Mod

Does the Nightmare take place in the main thread or a PT?

And are scum in the Nightmare still allowed to talk to their partners?

In a separate PT that I will send to all players involved at the start of night.

And yes, scum are allowed to talk with their partners while alive. Being in the nightmare doesn’t prevent you from submitting actions.

This has been edited to reflect a correction. I’m at work and quickly typed n2 without thinking. Nightmare Runners will be sent their PT at night-start, a little bit before I post the flip. They do not get their PT at n2, for n1 runners LOL.

Appreciate the clarification.

[DragonEater70]

empath I can't follow your line of thinking

so you think enchant is scummy cause he voted someone for a possible rvs vote while saying it was a bad vote?

I Thought Enchant was scummy because voting Eater for an obvious RVS vote seems ridiculous to me (Although if Eater RVSed someone who was v:la or such that would be a different story.) and they contradicted themselves. Eater seemingly claiming that their vote was not RVS has given me second thoughts.

I never claimed it wasn't RVS.

[DragonEater70]

LAMIST for the first post because they saw someone had already answered but still posted their own answer anyhow which is of no pro-town value but which does offer a chance to show people "hey everyone, look, I'm a nice helpful townie".

Scummy because the first rule of RVS is you don't talk about RVS. I mean, it's one thing to not have any actual reads yet but it seems overexplainy to feel the need to justify it like that compared to give an RVSy bullshit scumread which might help spark reactions or progress things in some way.

Disagree with the LAMIST point - I often explain things somebody asked only to find they were explained just a post after.
I understand your other point though. I'll look into it tomorrow as I'm heading to bed.

Botanic Rat's post seems like words for the sake of words. We don't want scum to be in the Nightmare? Well duh.

Agreed, which is part of why I think Gimli's TR on them is pure BS.


Imaginality is +town at the moment even though I don't 100% agree with everything they say.

[DragonEater70]

{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice}
{TemporalLich}
{Morning Tweet}
{DragonEater70}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{MegAzumarill}
{KawaiiKame, Enchant, Gimli}

P6.

So nothing I've ever said was AI at all?

[DragonEater70]

Oh NVM he's at page 6.

[DragonEater70]

She*

[DragonEater70]

DragonEater70's repeated waffling on whether his vote is serious or not is extremely concerning and definitely unfit for the nightmare

I'm not waffling, I said it was semi rvs from the beginning and people kept questioning it so I had to keep answering. I really don't want to make it a point.

What's making you townread Gimli though?

Gimli not guaranteed scum, but haven't liked his posts mostly. (Exception was 227, and only there.)

Seconded.

Also @everyone who tr's Botanical Rat and Doctor Drew: care to explain your TR's? I really don't see them.

[DragonEater70]

4 - What is your take on how empath voted enchant. What do you think about the interactions surrounding his vote on enchant

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I just wanna chime in and say I've also taken note of the vote and felt it was a bit scummy, however I didn't feel it was enough to change my read of Empath. But maybe I could've at least questioned it, looking back.
So I would like to direct a question for Empath:
Why did you vote Enchant?

[DragonEater70]

How do you get reads of everyone page by page? This is genuinely impressive, I hope to be this skilled in time

I've been playing games of werewolf since 2009. I've never stopped. That's 14 years of experience. Most of those were blitzes, too. And EpicMafia. Developing reads quickly was a must. I've slowed down in my old age.

Big help: intellectual honesty. Let people move for any reason.

Any

reason. A single good post up. A single bad post down. Out of sight out of mind move down. Sucks to let go of correct reads, sucks to change to wrong reads, but the honesty is worth it.

{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice}
{TemporalLich}
{DragonEater70}
{Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Clone, Flea The Magician}
{Morning Tweet}
{MegAzumarill}
{imaginality, KawaiiKame}
{Gimli}
{Enchant}

I realize I've too few scumreads. Hopefully will solidify these later. I did like Kawaii this page.

I do wonder why Kawaii is so low, along with Morning.......and I have been lock town apparently, even I would say I haven't been blatant town.

Okay I can kinda see the Doctor Drew tr but I agree that they shouldn't be so high up. Especially because they've done no scum hunting this far, only a bit of mech talk and townhunting.

[DragonEater70]

I think given the questions and the places where the suspicion is allegedly coming from, I think it can be a >rand scum thing instead

This is probably your first analysis of any slot in this game thread and I actually welcome it. So far you reacted vote to lich for something I feel town you would be more hesitant/analytical about, you threw some rand commentary about feeling good about most slots with almost no elaboration. The last one was about someone voting for you to be in nightmare without even sharing anything about how they read you.

Thats why I want to see you talk more about your reads. It seems so shallow that I think its very likely that your published perspective in this game thread is entirely forged.

I want you to explain why you think me asking these questions is me being rand scum and why where my suspicious is not towny in your mind.

Fully agreed.

[DragonEater70]

you're really gonna make me have to play this d1 aren't you kyoko

hood <<<< vig, no? why would you prefer a hood over a vig instead?

You really shpuld be playing D1 when it's your town meta to be very active D1. Idk why town you wouldn't want to play D1.

[DragonEater70]

I'm very active regardless, and I am playing the game. the things kyoko want from me are really hard, cause I don't have good reads to share other than enchant = town for simple meta reasons.

I don't like that you're using that post to push me, DE. even though I'm saying 'you're gonna make me play d1', I don't get how your perception of me is of someone who wasn't playing d1 until now. you were really obvtowning our last game together as well and you just seem different here.

You weren't playing much until around the time Kyoko and I started pushing you.
Now you are playing more, I just find it weird that you are saying Kyoko is "making" you play.

[DragonEater70]

just ISO'd DE and am fine with him being a townie in this game actually, I missed a bunch of posts

You already said that earlier. Still waiting for you to move your vote away

But for real I actually do like the answers you gave Kyoko so I am gonna UNVOTE: for now.

[DragonEater70]

I am going to have a look at some of the-less-recently-active players and see if I can spot scum there.

[DragonEater70]

However it appears your vote was serious and I'm the only one here that can't see it being a serious vote at all?

Why do you keep saying it's serious?
I thought we'd gone over it already.

[DragonEater70]

TWTBAW?

Talking with the bats and wolves?

It's apparently "too wolfy to be a wolf", meaning "too scummy to be a real scum".


Also, sorry for not posting here in a while. I'm back. I haven't done any analysis of anyone at all. Doing it now.

[DragonEater70]

Going to do a quick ISO of all the less active players (who I also have less to read off of), as I promised in 355

Starting with Flea:

Morning.

Anything spicy in te 9 pages I'm not going to read?

VOTE: Rat
HURT: Flea The Magnificant, Gimli, Tweetie, Kyoko

Yeah this feels like town!Flea

enchant having wim/not trolling/doing mech spec is probably town enchant

Not always, he did mech spec in the scum chat in Mutiny.

This is weird reasoning because scumchat is very different to main thread. And if Flea knows that then why are they posting that?

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Gimli, Ranger, Doctor Drew, Morning Tweet

updating nightmare vote, removing kyoko for potentially having scummy pushes (exactly what we

don't

want in the nightmare) and adding doctor drew because of 398 giving good reasoning for reads and being proactive.

also adding morning tweet for the proactive post 396

I still think imaginality and Flea The Magician are scummy, and 357 is self-admittedly forced (very bad for nightmare votes!)

its more the readslist is force than the post, I haaaaaate having to spew D1 reads because they're like 1 point in either direction usually, sometimes 2... out of 10.

Also feels like town!Flea (from the one town game I played with faer).

Verdict: leaning town.

[DragonEater70]

Next up: Doctor Drew:

I know this is wacky, even more wacky than a Korina game normally is, because they didn't make me CL.

Now I am all out of sorts.

Kinda reads like scum trying to make a town-sounding post and deciding to post about nothing.

HURT: Gimli, Meg, Botanical

I think I do remember people saying we want the most solvy players to run the nightmare?

To me, at least who I have played with recently, Meg and Gimli would be at the top of my list. As far as the hydra, they both are quality as well....but I figure two heads are better than one in this scenario (it pains me to compliment a hydra lol)

I don't understand how anyone can read this as solvy? This is literally hurting players based on how good DD thinks they are at solving. It's basically meta and mech based, no solving.

I do wonder why Kawaii is so low, along with Morning.......and I have been lock town apparently, even I would say I haven't been blatant town.

This is kinda NAI on the surface, my brain says it's even a bit townie but my guy says it's actually scum trying to sound townie. Especially in Donner Party Firebringer (who was scum) was also posting about how they are not towny at all and they were scum.

you're really gonna make me have to play this d1 aren't you kyoko

hood <<<< vig, no? why would you prefer a hood over a vig instead?

You really shpuld be playing D1 when it's your town meta to be very active D1. Idk why town you wouldn't want to play D1.

This just screamed of 'hey fellow scum, don't act so scummy'

So I'm just going to say this sounds a bit like a stretch. If scum!me wanted to warn scum!Gimli about being scummy, I would've done it in the PT.

And TL, tbf I did say I think they are solid players, not that I was town reading them per se.

Maybe this is actually a townie post? Acknowledging they haven't made any reads so far (except the one on me). Hm.

Overall verdict: moderate scumlean.

VOTE: Doctor Drew



And to answer your question,

I bit on the nose yes for scum for scum, as I stewed on it a little bit more it seems more of a S v T thing.

I don't understand why town would say that though.

Maybe because I was really surprised Gimli was acting that way, and wanted to point it out? I was actually thinking that if Gimli refused to play this D1 actively then that'd be a meta scumtell. Gimli explained it quite well here:

DE just expects me to play harder than this since last game we played together I played it pretty hard and was hard TR'ed throughout

I'm just not finding my footing in this game much but I'm starting to come around in townreads and I might have a semi functioning POE in a bit

[DragonEater70]

Morning Tweet:

I once had a dream that Enchant.....
once had a dream that DragonEater70..........
once had a dream that imaginality.....
once had a dream that imaginality..........
once had a dream that KawaiiKame.....
once had a dream that Enchant..........
once had a dream that Ranger.....
..........
once had a dream that Ranger.....
once had a dream that Empathice..........
once had a dream that Save the Dragons.....

woke up

VOTE: Dragons

NAI

Spoiler: wallpost

I like DragonEater for town

I think Enchant could be scum trying to control the nightmare mechanic

Anyone can be scum trying to control the nightmare mechanic, this is not exclusive to Enchant

not everyone is going "hand me the gun lest these heathens get a hold of it first", that is a line exclusive to enchant

Granted, I think him being blatantly overt about wanting power is wifomy nai at best. But i can see the rationale

Which means you thought the possibility of it being a RVS vote was enough to warrant mention. AKA you said it could be a RVS vote.

VOTE: Enchant

I feel this is such an inconsequential thing to vote Enchant in on...

Yeah it's an odd semantic reason to vote Enchant.

I do think there's something a bit weird about the interaction though.

HURT: Enchant

Mmm power

VOTE: Enchant

VOTE: DragonEater

Bad vote even for RVS.

I think that Enchant is playing in a way that is sus intentionally in an rvs jokey way but the OMGUS back on dragon in 97 calling it a bad vote ... its just like why? That's a weird thing for Enchant to think is a bad vote because i found the way enchant playing to be traditionally suspicious (As in "ooo gimme da power") so getting at least a l ittle voted for that is usually an expected part of the fun

So I guess, Enchant is a little more defensive than I would have expected I guess is my summary of that. But maybe his reaction is an intentional continuation of the joke and the jokes actually on me for being dumb enough to find it suspicious. Wine

I see this is a somewhat townie post.

enchant having wim/not trolling/doing mech spec is probably town enchant

Reflecting.. I'm inclined to agree I think. I think him getting upset at people voting him plus sweating over the nightmare mechanic for some reason probably comes from a genuine place.

It's less likely that he's reacting in a frustrated way in response to OMGUS as scum i think, I think he'd be more likely to brush it off. And I think his fixation on how the mechanic is used is more likely to be real, not sure what the obvious motive is for scum

HURT: DragonEater This is a very good bet.

Someone said that scum can't get in the nightmare. Sort of. I mean, if scum shoots the person who receives the nightmare, we're still gonna learn there's scum running the nightmare. The more people we put in there that we're sure are town, the better the result could potentially be. And the less likely scum will want to do that

Ideally it still needs to be as towny as possible so this nitpick im making doesnt rlly matter. But if scum get in we can still work w that is what I mean

Like this one, feels like townie mindset.

Spoiler: another wallpost

Spoiler: TL, Kyoko

Doctor Drew however is pretty solvey this game.

is he?

pedit: that post tells me "kyoko might be scum with her calculated pushes"

what part of it do you think is calculated?

is he?

uhh... I think so? maybe?

302 is what gives me the impression that Doctor Drew is "pretty solvey this game".

what part of it do you think is calculated?

gimli's post about your pushes makes me think they could be set up to try to get Gimli to slip up and become LHF - they seemed like okay and somewhat towny pushes before that post

There isn't a single read in post 302. what were they solving there?

so you say based on what gimli wrote, you got the impression that I was trying to set them up as an easy mislim and not sorting them? can you elaborate what you saw there that gave you this impression?

What are you trying to achieve here, Kyoko? There are three expressed townreads in post 302, to start off.

Your probing of TL feels unnecessarily aggressive in approach, why the questions..

Spoiler: Kyoko on Gimli

I actually am going to go ahead and do

VOTE: Gimli

I have a few questions for you:

1 - Is your hated modifier for all phases or just this one
2 - Imagine you were in the nightmare, what invention would you choose and why?
3 - How is your read on temporallich developing
4 - What is your take on how empath voted enchant. What do you think about the interactions surrounding his vote on enchant
5 - Who would you vote to hurt right now? Please write one sentence about each.

We need to verify your alibi, please show us your e-handbook!

I'm skimming p.13 etc a bit and agree some of my townreads could've been unwarranted and coming from informed places

I do like kyoko calling attention on that so I think she is more likely than not to be a townie.

pedit: that post tells me "kyoko might be scum with her calculated pushes"

On second thought, TL responding to this with "This seems like Kyoko is making a calculated push" but not elaborating on why was a pretty good invitation for questions. I can imagine why you may have been a bit extra suspicious in your questioning. So I can appreciate being proactive.

That being said, curious what exactly made you decide to let off of Gimli.

some of the questions kyoko made to me are not gonna provide answers that help her figure out my alignment

idk why she'd be suspicious of me being hated? I understand the modguess that this is a town role is too much, but like being suspicious about my role is a bit ????

I'm retracting my idea that her push was a >rand town thing, I think given the questions and the places where the suspicion is allegedly coming from, I think it can be a >rand scum thing instead

I like this post by Gimli. He has an instant reactive read (Kyoko is probably town because pushing me is hard, i assume they've played previously) which he posts instantly upon seeing her questioning.
Then an hour later after reflecting Gimli writes this post

I think Kyoko and Gimli having previously played together in a game that they probably both interacted in a lot adequately explains why this interaction is happening in the first place

Mmm... I think the content Kyoko is generating from Gimli is coming from a genuine place from both

Enchant is probably town too. But the way I'm getting there isn't because im convinced he's solving it's more that he's playing in an outspoken suspicious kind of way where he keeps giving what he's thinking no matter how bad it looks. I'm also kind of convinced he wants to control the Nightmare mechanic which seems like something he'd be more likely to want as town

HURT: TemporalLich, Drew, Kyoko, Gimli, Enchant

Another very good post, feels very organic, I like how you can see MT's thought process unfold while writing the post. Very very townie.

Spoiler: third wallpost

I played with Gimli and Kyoko in said recent game.

I will say that thinking of that games reminds me of townGimli, he isn't afraid to point out when he thinks he was incorrect.

Pre Edit: Slips are usually subtle

Hmm i dont usually believe in slip type reading the vast majority of cases due to how often and how confidently people will call me out for "slipping" but i can see what you mean. I could miss a lot of deceptive cues by mistakenly dismissing them as just 'particular' phrasing. but there are still a load of false positives

I'm curious why exactly I come across like im forcing a townread on Dragon to Ranger. And also prolly why Ranger has Enchant so low

why is Enchant so low to you?

I disagree with the meta townread.

{Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice}
{TemporalLich}
{DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Clone, Flea The Magician}
{MegAzumarill}
{Morning Tweet}
{imaginality, KawaiiKame}
{Gimli}
{Enchant}

13.

I can understand disagreeing with the meta but what has Enchant at the bottom of your possible suspects at the bottom of your reads since P4 onwards to present

I'm looking through his ISO and he basically does nothing but fluff, OMGUS Dragon, and focus on the nightmare. Okay so he's not exactly town to the naked eye. But to the discerning viewer, maybee... I'm actually not really as sure now I'm kinda surprised he doesnt have any reads at all. I think I got convinced by someone elses explanation

enchant having wim/not trolling/doing mech spec is probably town enchant

Yup twas this post, sire

Agree with doing mech spec. He's kind of trolly/fluffy though, light on content (with his full ISO now). I took his investment in the nightmare mechanic as efforty but i dont really read it that way now. He definitely seemed to care about that, for some reason, at the beginning, i dont really know why. if he thinks he is a bad player (198) then why does he also feel qualified to be the voice of reason who should be dictating what's done with it. And why would he expect people to trust him

I don't really know, I feel silly having him near medium level confidence. I'm pretty low confidence on that one now

HURT: TemporalLich, Kyoko, Gimli, Dragon

I really like the critical thinking here.

Verdict: Strong town.

[DragonEater70]

Meg ISO:

egg

VOTE: Doctor Drew
zzzzzzzz

Someone make reads so I don't have to

You should put me in, otherwise these idiots will try to use vig.

You should put me in, so I can use the vig
HURT: MegAzumarill

These feel very carefree in attitude, in a way that is usually townie. I don't think scum would fake this very easily. Like when Enchant fakes it, it's obvious.

Not really sure how to parse imaginalities opening here because it feels very forceful and I don't think scum would draw that attention to themselves but also I don't think town has reason to do that.

Not really sure how to parse imaginalities opening here because it feels very forceful and I don't think scum would draw that attention to themselves but also I don't think town has reason to do that.

Reason to do what, exactly?

Empath, what do you mean by the fn bit

Having moderately scummy players is ideal for making use of FN so Rat's comment has value.

I mean it feels like making a mountain out of a common occurence (discussing RVS) and making a read purely off of that feels a bit unnatural

I get you said that but you followed it up with that if that wasn't the case then FN is the best option. Do you think FN is just the best option?

I kinda like the critical thinking here, even though it's not a lot.

Dragoneater prolly town

Would love an explanation of this read, at least in 1-2 sentences.

Verdict: townlean.

[DragonEater70]

Hmmm maybe I should just get myself a note PT, do all these ISO's in there, and then just give you guys a readlist at the end of all this.

[DragonEater70]

Unless ya'll are actually interested in these ISO's.

[DragonEater70]

Okay heading to sleep and will continue this tomorrow, maybe. But not before I HURT: Temporal, Kyoko, Tweet, Kawaii, Dragon, Empath, Ranger
Ranger is not particularly because of a TR but more because of a solvey feeling.

[DragonEater70]

Can't fall asleep so I'm gonna squeeze in one more post before I close this game for the night:

Does it though? Wouldn't that be super on the nose? This just seems like the way it was phrased that is pinging you more than anything. like by saying "town!you" twice it seems slightly lecture-y in tone but other than that im not sure it implies anything about Dragon. He could have phrased that like "You're usually very active D1 as town" and it wouldnt read the way it does, at least to me

I agree with the sentiments. There was nothing bad about that DragonEater post.

However, while I agree with the conclusion of DragonEater not being scum (I'm quite sure DragonEater is town now), I believe Morning Tweet's defense to be out of place. I don't think it's because of being aligned with DragonEater--quite the opposite. It looks like forced White Knighting to me.

I agree with you actually about the defense being overblown and out of place, but I feel the rest of MT's posts are very very good posts and I don't feel it's fair to SR them based on that defense alone. Further, I don't actually see a scum motivation for defending me?

That being said, I'm not really alarmed by anyone at this moment. I'm trying to see if someone shows some sort of dispersal in their thought process so I would love more if everyone would write down their top town and top scum reads and elaborate on what they see about them

Top town read is you. While a lot of people feel townie here and like they are trying to solve, I can say with confidence that you are not TRYING. You are SOLVING. Your investigations are very on point and you have a keen perception of small details (but you don't latch into random NAI stuff)
As to top scumread, I can't really say I have a strong scumread on anyone, but the strongest I have are probably on DD followed by Enchant. It's probably true that either we have very townie scum right now, or very inactive scum.

I can understand disagreeing with the meta but what has Enchant at the bottom of your possible suspects at the bottom of your reads since P4 onwards to present

I'm looking through his ISO and he basically does nothing but fluff, OMGUS Dragon, and focus on the nightmare. Okay so he's not exactly town to the naked eye. But to the discerning viewer, maybee... I'm actually not really as sure now I'm kinda surprised he doesnt have any reads at all. I think I got convinced by someone elses explanation

enchant having wim/not trolling/doing mech spec is probably town enchant

Yup twas this post, sire

Agree with doing mech spec. He's kind of trolly/fluffy though, light on content (with his full ISO now). I took his investment in the nightmare mechanic as efforty but i dont really read it that way now. He definitely seemed to care about that, for some reason, at the beginning, i dont really know why. if he thinks he is a bad player (198) then why does he also feel qualified to be the voice of reason who should be dictating what's done with it. And why would he expect people to trust him

I don't really know, I feel silly having him near medium level confidence. I'm pretty low confidence on that one now

HURT: TemporalLich, Kyoko, Gimli, Dragon

I think you should SR Enchant here, honestly. Their meta is always a bit trollish, but the blatant lack of contribution and reads is actually scummy. Just read their opening posts in Gnosia because it was mentioned, they were efforting a lot more there (and were apparently town).

doctor drew still feels slightly towny and solvey to me tbh... so doctor drew is still in my nightmare vote for now

Honestly, I don't want to be mean but is it possible that you just don't want to admit that you were wrong with your read?
Like I'm open to the possibility that DD is towny, but I'd like you to post a paragraph explaining why, if you can. Would be very helpful for both of us I think.

As I said, Enchant is reminding me of Gnosia so if he was town there...

Weird, I just read the first 20 posts of Enchant's ISO on Gnosia and they have a completely different playstyle here. I think if anything, you should conclude that they have the opposite alignment here than they had in Gnosia.

[DragonEater70]

I have a towncore of DE, TL, kyoko kirigiri and MT atm.

I like this as a towncore, honestly.

Newbie question alert:

Is talking too much about a towncore/townbloc anti-town?

[DragonEater70]

Ranger’s posts reek scum. The posting method they are following is super easy to do as scum.

Weirdly, I get very strong scum pings of your posts being precisely this.

I'm looking and I can see your posts being either alignment, so I can see how you'd reach this conclusion as town, but it feels like you are doing a super-easy to do style as scum.

{Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice, TemporalLich, DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Gimli, Flea The Magician}
{Save The Dragons}
{imaginality, Enchant}
{Clone}
{Porkens}
{Morning Tweet}
{MegAzumarill}

Agreed

[DragonEater70]

Ranger’s posts reek scum. The posting method they are following is super easy to do as scum.

Weirdly, I get very strong scum pings of your posts being precisely this.

I'm looking and I can see your posts being either alignment, so I can see how you'd reach this conclusion as town, but it feels like you are doing a super-easy to do style as scum.

{Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice, TemporalLich, DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Gimli, Flea The Magician}
{Save The Dragons}
{imaginality, Enchant}
{Clone}
{Porkens}
{Morning Tweet}
{MegAzumarill}

I know you are but what am I? Adding OMGUS to your list of crimes.

Spoiler: side-tangent:

Since Porkens brought up the ease of my style I'll note he's not wrong, my readslist style is explicitly something I designed to make games easier on myself. It's easy for me to track my thoughts as town or to fake thoughts as scum. It's faster. It saves brainpower, it saves time, it saves effort, it makes things faster, easier, and more efficient. I adapted the style for blitz games with 48-hour days after having burned myself out from trying too hard and needing to go casual.

So when I came to mafiascum with the style, I maintained those casual vibes. By my nature I try too hard regardless of my alignment, but a casual posting style makes my tryharding be less stressful. Thoroughly recommend minimalism if you're feeling burnout. I could play 5-8 games with this style, whereas a different style would risk burnout with 3 or fewer.

over defensive and over explanatory. my vote stays.

Commenting on what's been happening here recently:
Both of these posts feel they

could

come from town in their content, but are a bit scumsided in tone. Overall ambivalent here.

I do want to note though that Ranger's constant use of readlists in NAI since she does it as both scum and town, so if we want to analyze her we should look at her other content. For me, it's a (rather weak) townlean on Ranger based on the non-readlist content.

[DragonEater70]

Actually let me correct that, I'm scumleaning Porkens due to tone because honestly tone is more important than content for my reads.

[DragonEater70]

idk... if it comes at the expense of having any scumreads than definitely

Well that's definitely not my intent lol. In fact I think this is my cue to go back to ISO diving some players here.

[DragonEater70]

@Kyoko could you post your reads? You have done quite a lot of investigation and questioning and I'd like to know what your conclusions are based on this.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I like MT's townspew just now.

Will ISO a few more players in a bit.

[DragonEater70]

More ISO's!

I know ISOing someone with one post is a bit laughable but I thought might as well address it, since the entire point of doing the ISO's was to find out if scum is in the lurkers.

thought I had missed something for a minute, im not one to get notifications, anywhere

lets do this

VOTE: Vote: Dr. Drew

still don't trust you especially not with those eyes

Obviously an RVS post, but I am getting a slight scum vibe from saying "lets do this". Like this is what I would say in RVS if I were scum.
So verdict is slight scumlean, obviously need more posts.

[DragonEater70]

Enchant ISO:

HURT: Enchant

Mmm power

NAI

VOTE: DragonEater

Bad vote even for RVS.

I agree.

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I surprise you, but in most cases roles like these doesh't work in ELO so your logic are faulty.

This mech talk is not on the same level at all as in Gnosia and ABLOAF?
Still ig mech talk is aligning with Enchant's town meta.

It's obviously not RVS vote and even if is, it sucks.

It is RVS and it sucks.

I don't know who thinked that OMGUS is scummy and writed this on wiki (now people parrot this as universal scumread without thinking), but if someone thinks that selfvoting for PR is scummy, then they DESERVE the vote in response.

Feels townie tbh

Why i even trying.

This actually feels like scum!Enchant from mini 2289, and a bit of why I scumread them earlier.

If you were really scum you'd already know the answer to that question

pedit: I'm not seeing what you're seeing Empathice

So if i am scum i know answer and if i am town i don't know answer and you refuse to give me any. Because i am confirmed scum already and therefore not worth answering.

Makes sense. Now piss off.

I think this is possibly townie? I could see scum being frustrated here as well, but the frustration is actually geniune and I kinda get how Enchant feels here.

enchant very likely town

why do you townread enchant?

I don't really see how enchant could be towny especially since enchant has no reads other than scumreading dragoneater for voting enchant because enchant self nightmare voted

yeah that was a good post I think. scumreading dragoneater's RVS vote and whatnot, I agree it was a bad vote even for RVS. I think enchant feels engaged and happy with the game in a way that mirrors his town game well. but its early, I'm just strong townreading it atm.

I actually agree that it was a bad RVS vote but since when do you scumread ppl for bad RVS vote? At best Enchant's counter vote is another bad RVS vote.

Issue is i am bad player.

You should had knew better.

I think you are only a bad player when you scum, Enchant. You said a lot of stuff like this (about being a bad player) in Mini 2289 where you were scum, but in ABLOAF and Gnosia you were kinda contributing not too badly.

But I don't know if I should SR you based on the fact that you are contributing here and therefore I'm disagreeing with your assessment that you are a bad player.

I still think this is scum indicative specifically for Enchant, ig.

Idk i remember town!ranger also put me as scum in Gnosia, but tried to kill me more actively than that.

Feels actually solvey.

I am not convinced that Dragon is town

I would like to hear more from you about this read.

Verdict: ambivalent, I could read Enchant as both town or scum. Slightly leaning scum due to meta, but I think if they explain their reads more and engage the game this could easily change.

[DragonEater70]

Enchant ISO:

You should put me in, otherwise these idiots will try to use vig.

HURT: Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame, Temporal Lich, Gimli, Empath, DragonEater

Btw Gimli I think is town because, from a mech standpoint, being hated only makes sense for town (basically makes ELo more dangerous) but doesn't work really with scum. Of course it could be a red herring though.
And nightmarin' myself because I'm conftown in my eyes.

I surprise you, but in most cases roles like these doesh't work in ELO so your logic are faulty.

Only invention worth giving away first night is Friendly Neighbour.

This mech talk is not on the same level at all as in Gnosia and ABLOAF?
Still ig mech talk is aligning with Enchant's town meta.

EBWOP: added missing quotes.

[DragonEater70]

KawaiiKame does have towny vibes but I did an ISO skim on them and they have some reads but I don't see any scumreads from KawaiiKame. 242 feels more likely genuine than not.

pedit: good reasoning, though DragonEater's waffling discredits his solvey vibes and I indeed do like Gimli's vibe and posts

I can definitely see KawaiiKame being scum, but I still have a low confidence townread there (the scumminess comes from a concerning lack of scumreads)

It takes me a long ass time to scumread anyone, I have to have strong conviction to scumread someone initially and no one I know is explicitly scum to me as of now, I'm open to any and all possibilities but I feel it's best to see who I see as town and see who's left, I'm usually not confident in any/most of my reads, so many people makes it hard to know who is scum especially with everyone acting vaguely townie in my eyes, I will have to deeply analyze the game and see what I find

I'm town reading Rat, Empath, Enchant, Ranger, Save The Dragons, Temporal Lich
HURT: Rat, Empath, Enchant, Ranger,Save The Dragons, Temporal Lich , KawaiiKame
Tweet is below this line, I like how observant/solving she is in spite of only 3 posts, willing to trade in someone above with Tweet
Kyoko is below this line, I'm willing to trade someone out of the above line if I continue to like what she says in challenging people
Tweet/Kyoko exist in the same line interchangeably to be next in line in who I hurt vote into the Nightmare
9/17 town, let's see the 8/17 in P2

Hi Kawaii, I don't know if you've noticed but it kinda feels with those quotes of yourself like you are talking to yourself (especially since the reads are not really explained).
So I would actually love if you shared the reasoning behind these townreads you are mentioning here.
Like why are you TRing StD for instance?

[DragonEater70]

btw I had terrible sleep last night so I'm too tired to make a multi quote but I ISO'd Kawaii and I think they are towny but maybe not good enough at solving, so if a better candidate comes I will replace their nightmare vote with someone else.

[DragonEater70]

Unless Kawaii is just going to sheep town in nightmare, which is honestly not a horrible option?

[DragonEater70]

@Gimli - I feel like independently of meta you feel somewhat townie, but in comparison to our recent game it still feels very different. So I'm a bit conflicted, but I think I know how to solve it:

I've just finished reading this article by Mathdino. This article is about how it's important to actually listen to other people's opinions, especially in things like meta reading a player which the others might be more familiar with than say, I am.
So I am going to extend a question to Kyoko and Temporal Lich, who both seem to know Gimli's meta well: do you feel Gimli is townie by meta?
Actually I guess Lich already said yes, which is why I was thinking they know Gimli in the first place. So just Kyoko then.

But I'm willing to give Gimli a tentative TR until I get an answer (and until I do a full ISO of them this game).

[DragonEater70]

so guys, I really had a very long day (not really a weekend for me)

and I'm super exhausted. I think I'll catch up and do the stuff I plan to do tomorrow night instead

Hey no problem, just note I asked you two questions so feel free to answer them tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Temporal, Kyoko, Tweet, Gimli, Dragon, Empath, Ranger
For now.

[DragonEater70]

It's really funny that you are softing considering we're all PRs this game, but fine. I accept your softclaim.

[DragonEater70]

I said resolving myself

it means I go boom boom

Suicide bombing?

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Temporal, Kyoko, Tweet, Gimli, Dragon, Empath, Ranger
For now.

I was very important town PR in that game so I was just projecting townie from the beginning. here I'm hated and also I have ways to resolve my slot that can be good. I'm softing here just because it won't matter, I don't think scum wants to kill me in this game given the majority etc elimination aspects of my role, being neg. utility and all.

Btw this is a good meta tell that you are town.

[DragonEater70]

I'm not saying how come on

Okay okay, you were the one hinting though.

[DragonEater70]

506 is not a towny post imo (it feels like low efforting), but I still townread Gimli as that's only a drop in the bucket

Agreed.

[DragonEater70]

Lich, since you don't agree with me that DD is scummy, do you think we should try for a Porkens/Enchant wagon?
Also, what's your read on Enchant actually?

[DragonEater70]

I do see one or two scum-indicators in Drew’s posts but actually reading through his iso highlighted that people in this game put way too much town credit to “solving” and use “solving” as a town signal, even if that “solving” is like basically just saying “this scum this town”

When did Drew highlight that exactly?

[DragonEater70]

I do see one or two scum-indicators in Drew’s posts but actually reading through his iso highlighted that people in this game put way too much town credit to “solving” and use “solving” as a town signal, even if that “solving” is like basically just saying “this scum this town”

Sorry I misread that horribly.
I agree that there's a bit too much emphasis on "solving" as town indicator. That's why I am not TRing some players who are "solving" but only people who actually sound townie.

[DragonEater70]

so it should be trivial to speedwagon Porkens

Maybe I am misreading your tone but isn't this sentence basically open wolfing in itself? Like why would you want to speedwagon anyone?

[DragonEater70]

The above is essentially just a color coded list of arbitrary assignment of reads with more words to distract from the fact it is what it is.

Are you talking about Lich's post?

[DragonEater70]

I'm genuinely asking because there are no colors in it.

[DragonEater70]

What is openwolfing?

From the mafia.gg wiki:
"To behave, as a mafia, in a way that invites discussion and suspicion, typically to attract town attention away from another mafia. Likely to cause town to miscondemn, but also likely to cause town to condemn the player openwolfing."

[DragonEater70]

posts with nothing but quotes and buzzwords are simply low effort posts that anyone could make

This is actually a sentiment I disagree with. Yes,

anyone

could do these posts, even town! In my first game on this site I had a player who had maybe 5 posts at one point two of which were naked votes based on a quote, and they were town, and they actually caught the scum that nobody else were even considering a possibility. So quotes with little content is very very far from scum indicative.

[DragonEater70]

Doctor Drew
TemporalLich
Morning Tweet

Gimli
Enchant
imaginality
Flea The Magician

DragonEater70
MegAzumarill

KawaiiKame
Empathice
Save the Dragons
Kyoko Kirigiri

Botanical Rat (Radical Rat + biancospino)
Clone
Ranger

VOTE: Ranger Join me.

HURT: Doctor Drew, TemporalLich, Morning Tweet

I would actually like your reasoning for bottom 4 reads (I find Kyoko's position especially curious) and top 4 reads as well.
I believe you that you read 19 pages, but if there's no reasoning it does feel a bit scummy and weird.

[DragonEater70]

If you feel personally attacked I apologize, that was not my intention at all. I can see how 527 could be interpreted as that. I just woke up and was trying to be funny. My bad. I don’t want anyone to feel attacked and I’m if I made them feel that way I am sorry.

FWIW I didn't get offended but the post didn't make me want to townread you either.

[DragonEater70]

Lich, since you don't agree with me that DD is scummy, do you think we should try for a Porkens/Enchant wagon?
Also, what's your read on Enchant actually?

Doctor Drew is null leaning scummy to me... still see no scumreads from Doctor Drew and he even nullreads Porkens (which is not a scumread and doesn't do anything to shift my read either way)

Porkens is openwolfing (on Day 1, no less) so it should be trivial to speedwagon Porkens... 527 tells me Porkens has no intent on being towny this game whatsoever.

Enchant was scummy early D1 but 232 is when Enchant started having towny vibes... oh and 234 is a factor in me thinking Enchant could be town.

All in all, Enchant feels hard null to me right now.

pedit: Porkens might have a town mindset but openwolfing is openwolfing, there's no such thing as 0.5 openwolfing

The above is essentially just a color coded list of arbitrary assignment of reads with more words to distract from the fact it is what it is.

How am I “openwolfing?”

I skimmed the game, posted my gutty reads, and am engaging. How is that openwolfing?

I guess you scumread Ranger then?

Openwolfing is obviously scummy behavior, such as personally attacking the entire playerlist and mocking playstyles and making it clear you have no intentions of game solving or giving out reads. Seriously, 527 is openwolfing.

posts with nothing but quotes and buzzwords are simply low effort posts that anyone could make

pedit: when you make a low effort post then start personally attacking the entire playerlist I have nothing to believe other than openwolfing

I can't help but feel that Lich's interaction with Porkens here is in bad faith. I wanted to say that it doesn't matter because Lich retracts the push a bit later ("as for wanting to speedwagon Porkens... I did think that would be a good idea ... but now I don't think it would be a good idea since Porkens might have a town mindset"), but the don't really retract it, in fact they vote Porkens right after saying that Porkens might have a town mindset?
TL has definitely dropped position on my readlist and I would like to hear what they have to say about this and also what other people think about this interaction.

[DragonEater70]

Doctor Drew - On initial read, I felt this was town Drew. Scum Drew feels more manipulative in my experience. However, on reread iso, I do see a couple scum indicators (there's a very suspicious "lol" in 402)
TemporalLich - Like obviously trying to solve in a protown way from the very beginning.
Morning Tweet - Again vibes felt this was town MT. Scum MT has less to contirbute.

Gimli - Not sure why I thought Gimli was townlean. Entrance is super scummy. Later on seemed to be engaging but I can't say it's super duper town. Tinfoil hat says DragonEater asked specifically for my top four reads to make me enforce their scumpartner's townread.
Enchant
imaginality
Flea The Magician

DragonEater70
MegAzumarill

KawaiiKame
Empathice
Save the Dragons
Kyoko Kirigiri - grilling like making sandwiches. It just catches me wrong like presuming they can figure out the setup by asking questions.

Botanical Rat (Radical Rat + biancospino) - first few posts feel very VERY "pressure of speech" motivated (scum just talking to talk, "oh hey look at that duck" kinda stuff)
Clone - one post very scummy thats all
Ranger - already explained

I would actually like your reasoning for bottom 4 reads (I find Kyoko's position especially curious) and top 4 reads as well.
I believe you that you read 19 pages, but if there's no reasoning it does feel a bit scummy and weird.

To be honest this feels like a busywork assignment, butt sure. See above.

Look, it's all gut at this point I don't have solves or reasons beyond that. I read, I color coded, that's what you got. Now I'm under fire and feel like welp that's is what it is. Hope that helps.

Okay I kinda like Porkens now. I really do feel that these are honest reads.
Your take on Kyoko is very onteresting and I might need to reevaluate my read on them since they are currently my top townread.
As to Gimli, if anything I wanted you to think ab9ut their townread more critically because I myself don't really like my TR on them.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: MegA, Porkens, Ranger,

Interested what people think about the possible Imaginality signaling.

What do you mean by signaling?

[DragonEater70]

I agree that there's a bit too much emphasis on "solving" as town indicator. That's why I am not TRing some players who are "solving" but only people who actually sound townie.

Tangent: defining "solving" here is important to understand the difference.

I agree 'sounds solvey' is not a town indicator and shouldn't be used to clear someone. All players try to sound solvey as scum. In fact, sounding solvey is actually a scumtell.

I disagree

solving

isn't a town indicator. Solving shows signs demonstrating their solvey sounds are genuine.

Looking like they are solvey without solving is a scumtell.
Genuinely attempting to solve is a towntell.

Still, people sounding townie is a huge aspect of my reads as well--and can actually be a contributing factor in determining the difference between the two.

Okay yeah, this is much better put than how I said it. And I agree with the idea.
That's exactly why I SR DD though: they SOUND solvey, perhaps, but have they done anything at all to solve anything? Really not.
I don't see a world where town just puts a bunch of people into the nightmare and leaves it at that, except in order to make a very strechy (or do you call that "reachy" here? Not sure if it's the same thing), out of context scumread, and then give uo the push without any indication that they were satisfied with the defense. That's not an attempt to solve the game IMO.

With that in mind, apt demonstration:

(snip)

This list start to finish tanks my townread because while I can see the thought behind it possibly being town, the nature of it feels very,

very

"off".

Putting Kyoko that high is fine; her company being MT and

imaginality

of all people is very suspect.

Lumping TemporalLich (one of the most efforting slots in the game who looks plenty town) in with Porkens (whose posts are filled with far less effort and is a main suspect) with the same exact justification (too wolf to be wolf) is a take I can't grasp.

You are right, there is something off there. Though I disagree about Imaginality being scummy, but that's another subject entirely.

[DragonEater70]

well there's also 535 so I saw a pattern or at least I thought I did

but yeah that was an unintentional exaggeration

pedit: I mean I guess that makes sense, but that doesn't discredit a read so a push based on that would just be strange

I think you are misunderstanding 535, they are no accusing you of gutreading them but are saying that it's weird/unfair you are allowed gutreads and they're attacked for having gutreads.

[DragonEater70]

Porkens's content could be either alignment. Hypocrisy is (sadly) not

inherently

a scumtell. Being disingenuous is (sadly) not a scumtell. Having random takes which largely feel out of touch is not a scumtell. The main reason I feel Porkens is scum is he seems "off". His approach is heavyhanded, forced, and feels entirely artificial.

His content could come from either alignment.
The tone behind it makes me feel it's +scum.

This particular hypocrisy is very open and indicates a lack of self-consciousness that I find to be towny/TWTBAW.

Lumping TemporalLich (one of the most efforting slots in the game who looks plenty town) in with Porkens (whose posts are filled with far less effort and is a main suspect) with the same exact justification (too wolf to be wolf) is a take I can't grasp.

Use the aforementioned "looks like they are solving but aren't solving" scumtell and look at TL. Their reads are the least genuine of anyone in this game. I Still believe they are probably town regardless though.

How can you believe someone is town if their reads are not geniune?

[DragonEater70]

Good job Meg

[DragonEater70]

So you are just gut reading me in 1000 words, cool.

Not exactly.

I believe your actions are +scum regardless of alignment

.

What does this even mean?

[DragonEater70]

Go look up greentexts for what I specifically meant.

I looked it up. You were incredibly townie there, not getting the same vibes here. Like there you were offering legit scumreads and interacting in a meaningful way and here not so much.

But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Can you point out three players you think are/can be scum here? Or even two? Can you point out some players which you think are townie?

[DragonEater70]

#422 has a really forced use of the word nightmare from imaginality. Feels possibly like a signal which makes my mind jump to traitor as from the OP bad dreams are the scumteam.

Okay this is actually a very good point and I think Imaginality could be scum here trying to signal his role (what with the capital N). Nightmare sounds like a role scum would have.

[DragonEater70]

Go look up greentexts for what I specifically meant.

I looked it up. You were incredibly townie there, not getting the same vibes here. Like there you were offering legit scumreads and interacting in a meaningful way and here not so much.

But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Can you point out three players you think are/can be scum here? Or even two? Can you point out some players which you think are townie?

I meant my entrance and overall ruffling feathers.

And the vibe wasn't that I was incredibly townie there, so that is interesting.

I literally just said that TL is scum, still feel Dragon is scum(voting them after all). And literally just said Pork and MT are town.

Are you even paying attention or just trying to act like you are?

There's a lot happening on the last few pages, I will read them more in depth when I have time and am focused (either later on today or sometime tomorrow).

[DragonEater70]

High chance it's not MT ability.

I actually think it's a StD ability since there are two faceless guys nightmaring MT and StD is not on the votecount for nightmares IIRC

[DragonEater70]

Nvm StD IS on the VC. One sec.

[DragonEater70]

Is it Clone and Porkens who aren't hurting anyone?

[DragonEater70]

Anyway I think there's someone or two who are able to cast hidden nightmare votes.

[DragonEater70]

Guys I am just letting you know I'm sorry for not contributing much today, hopefully tomorrow I will be able to post much more.

[DragonEater70]

Okay so Kyoko's death confirmed there's scum in the nightmare.
I think we should vote BR based on this.
VOTE: Botanical Rat

[DragonEater70]

Last night, the Nightmare Runners awarded the 1-Shot Vigilante ability. All future Nightmare choices will lack this ability.

Last night, I saw in a dream that Save The Dragons could kill another player.

Wait whatttt
StD could kill another player????
Confirmed by mod?

Ugh...

Gimli, Temporal Lich - are you guys thinking what I'm thinking?

Pedit: who said anything about DD?

[DragonEater70]

I have a gun.

Since when?
And when can you use it?

[DragonEater70]

Flavor

later

Nooo I demand flavor!

[DragonEater70]

Anyway I guess we have 1 cleared town and 1 almost confirmed scum now.
I wonder what would've happened if Ranger hadn't died, would we actually have an all-town nightmare?

VOTE: StD

Pedit: oh cool so I guess that makes 2 confirmed towns?
PPedit: I somehow don't believe you, StD. I would like you to claim but obviously that might require a fee more votes before you are convinced.

[DragonEater70]

There's 2 votes on him, how can we hammer?

[DragonEater70]

Honestly I think it's protown to out Kyoko's mason partner because scum already know who it is based on the Kyoko kill.
However I won't do it without consensus from the nightmare runners because I could always be missing something.
Pedit: Flea, I know who's Kyoko's partner so that's who am clearing.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: MegAzumaril, TemporalLich, DragonEater70, Gimli, Morning Tweet, Botanical Rat, Flea The Magician
Just in case day ends somehow?

[DragonEater70]

Wait I made a mistake

[DragonEater70]

HURT: MegAzumaril, TemporalLich, DragonEater70, Gimli, Morning Tweet, Botanical Rat, Doctor Drew

[DragonEater70]

From the rules:

There is at least one guaranteed moderator lie present in this game. Your role, alignment, and any abilities you possess will always be truthful. I will never lie to you about what you can do, or who you win with, or if you know anyone else is aligned with you. Anything else in the game could be lied about. The exact things I will lie about have been determined in the review.

@mod: would saying "Last night, I saw in a dream that Save the Dragons could kill another player" be a possible moderator lie or would it fail the "I will never lie to you about what you can do" condition given Save the Dragons is one of the players reading your post?

Mod never said actually that StD can kill, they only said "I saw it in a dream"
So it could technically not even be a lie?
Anyway I still think StD is scum because of PoE (I know there's at least one scum among nightmare runners, everyone else there is towny af).
I'm also thinking that if StD flips scum, vig should shoot Imaginality for an associative.
But not Porkens, the other vig.

[DragonEater70]

wow thats really subtle

You mean what I did? Yeah that was something wasn't it?

[DragonEater70]

Honestly I think it's protown to out Kyoko's mason partner because scum already know who it is based on the Kyoko kill.
However I won't do it without consensus from the nightmare runners because I could always be missing something.
Pedit: Flea, I know who's Kyoko's partner so that's who am clearing.

the only think I don't think we should out is who we gave the gun to, on the offchance scum isn't there

we out that info on d3

Fair point

[DragonEater70]

BTW IM IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH MORNING TWEET AND IM SCARED

I would love to join in, thanks in advance.

[DragonEater70]

wow thats really subtle

You mean what I did? Yeah that was something wasn't it?

lmao yeah

Well regardless of how subtle it was or wasn't, I can tell you I sincerely meant to include DD the first time but forgot to so I had to kick out the one I was least TRing.

[DragonEater70]

From the rules:

There is at least one guaranteed moderator lie present in this game. Your role, alignment, and any abilities you possess will always be truthful. I will never lie to you about what you can do, or who you win with, or if you know anyone else is aligned with you. Anything else in the game could be lied about. The exact things I will lie about have been determined in the review.

@mod: would saying "Last night, I saw in a dream that Save the Dragons could kill another player" be a possible moderator lie or would it fail the "I will never lie to you about what you can do" condition given Save the Dragons is one of the players reading your post?

Mod never said actually that StD can kill, they only said "I saw it in a dream"
So it could technically not even be a lie?
Anyway I still think StD is scum because of PoE (I know there's at least one scum among nightmare runners, everyone else there is towny af).
I'm also thinking that if StD flips scum, vig should shoot Imaginality for an associative.
But not Porkens, the other vig.

Actually scratch that, Porkens is the one who should shoot Imaginality if StD flips scum, the other vig knows already who to shoot.

Pedit I love the reference to the Kira game where you actually didn't even find out StD.

[DragonEater70]

I'm stupid you did find him out. Sorry for brainfart

[DragonEater70]

BTW IM IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH MORNING TWEET AND IM SCARED

I would love to join in, thanks in advance.

I think we should kill her instead of std right now that's how much this hood is scaring the living shit out of me

Nah man let's just get Kira
I want to join in the fun!

[DragonEater70]

Okay imaginality already brought that up. I got jumpy because I saw people tossing votes

Don't worry we ain't that stupid.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Flea The Magician

Can you hurt me and Gimli as well please? I promise I'm town and I believe Gimli's town as well.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I was memeing I don’t have a gun. I did receive an ability last night though.

Hmmmmmmmm......

I kinda wabt to just forget about this and vote StD but at the same time this is a possible scumtell?
Porkens, what kind of ability did you get? Or if you don't want to tell, can you at least reveal whether or no you know it's source?

[DragonEater70]

Honestly I think it's protown to out Kyoko's mason partner because scum already know who it is based on the Kyoko kill.
However I won't do it without consensus from the nightmare runners because I could always be missing something.
Pedit: Flea, I know who's Kyoko's partner so that's who am clearing.

No. While the Kyoko kill is INCREDIBLY concerning, there's a non-zero chance it was just a lucky shot. No reason to hand scum the other one, just in case.

Okay fair point.
I guess we just know who not to lim today, then.

[DragonEater70]

Those of us from the Nightmare can verify the mason claim if they choose to come forward, but otherwise we should keep a lid on that

Yeah makes sense

[DragonEater70]

I still feel Save The Dragons' reaction to the mod message is kind of scummy... basically denying it with no elaboration

that being said, with three green flips I want to re-evaluate my reads

oh and I will add myself to my nightmare vote as it is clearly important to make sure town is in the nightmare

HURT: KawaiiKame, Gimli, Morning Tweet, DragonEater70, Doctor Drew, TemporalLich

pedit: I mean I guess... Kyoko was very towny so it's not too far off from what would be a normal scum nightkill

Wouldn't it make more sense to claim to be a Town killing role instead? Clearly we have them.

You mean if he were scum?
perhaps.
you think Enchant was killed by town? Because ot could be SK as well.

[DragonEater70]

Oh another important question:
Does anyone want to claim responsibility for the Ranger execution?

[DragonEater70]

at least a softclaim if not a hardclaim, that message still reads like a red check to me

Softclaiming his role? Or softclaiming what exactly?
Though as I said earlier I would love for Kira to claim.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I was memeing I don’t have a gun. I did receive an ability last night though.

Hmmmmmmmm......

I kinda wabt to just forget about this and vote StD but at the same time this is a possible scumtell?
Porkens, what kind of ability did you get? Or if you don't want to tell, can you at least reveal whether or no you know it's source?

I don’t know the source

So tell me something please.
You have gained an ability. You don't want to say what it is, you don't know its source. What good does {saying it's a gun and then backtracking} does to town?

[DragonEater70]

This might be a wild goose chase but I want to engage in it anyway since at this point I am basically waiting for other players to vote fenrir so that Fenrir can claim and then we can get somewhere.
So up until that happens I'll chase wild geese and who knows, maybe I'll find a scum player or two.

IDK why I'm even explaining that, I guess just because I like to be open with my thought process.

[DragonEater70]

Catching up from p. 33:

what we need to talk is about me being in a hood with MT

if MT is town she has no reason to do it

I actually think she does, I see a very good townie reaaon to do it and immediately when ypu mentioned it it seemed like something town!tweet would be the cause of. That's why I also asked in.
I really can't say what the exact townie reason is in this thread but all of our discussion of possibly having scum listening in on the nightmare kinda leads into it.
Also I just realized that on the nightmare PT's opening post there's no list of users with access to the thread as is traditional with PTs, whoch raises the possibility that maybe all scum have access to the nightmare PT but they are just not allowed to talk in it. This is a side tangent, but gives us even more reason to have a hood so we can discuss things privately, basically.

I think kyoko died because scum was in the hood. there she was really obviously just a townie with a bunch of good ideas and probably reads. I don't think she showed anywhere near that in this thread, so the kill feels like scum had the instinct of making a proper strong player kill on someone who was unlikely to be a doc target. it became a hider target even...

And she also softed mason in the PT and I tend to think that scum thought that we all believed her (I did, at least). So I am definitely with you on scum being able to see the nightmare, but with what I mentioned above there is actually a non-zero possibility that none of the runners were scum.

Spoiler:

From the rules:

There is at least one guaranteed moderator lie present in this game. Your role, alignment, and any abilities you possess will always be truthful. I will never lie to you about what you can do, or who you win with, or if you know anyone else is aligned with you. Anything else in the game could be lied about. The exact things I will lie about have been determined in the review.

@mod: would saying "Last night, I saw in a dream that Save the Dragons could kill another player" be a possible moderator lie or would it fail the "I will never lie to you about what you can do" condition given Save the Dragons is one of the players reading your post?

^ This feels solving town to me

What??? How is that post tangentially related to solving?
SOLVING means "making an effort to find out who is town and who is scum", in other words "working to achieve a clear picture of everyone's role and alignment, thus SOLVING the game".
This post is not solving, it's at best asking a mechanical question and at worst an unwarranted defense of Fenrir (StD).

If no one is claiming locking MT into the nightmare then chances are it wasn't town who did it. But she was likely to be in it anyway so scum motivation to lock scum MT into it isn't there. So I still think MT more likely town, with scum hoping to cast suspicion on her. I bet some of the push on her today is from scum.
The neighbourhood thing could easily also be scum wanting her to be under more suspicion.

I also like Porkens for town. So of Gimli's options StD and Clone are the two I can see myself voting today.

My question to the mod certainly wasn't a defence of StD and DragonEater painting it as an associative seems like a stretch. We know there are mod lies in this game, understanding what could or couldn't be a lie seems useful to me.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

Overall there's still a lot of stuff up in the air. Hope to find some silent headspace to figure a bit more out today and tonight.

Well I guess Imaginality is NOT aligned with Fenrir?
I am not sure what this means because unlike most of you I actually townread Imaginality's first few posts but then felt they gradually became scummier. I'll look at their ISO shortly. And when I am less tired I might as well see if I can understand Ranger's meta townread on Fenrir.

[DragonEater70]

@Kawaii:

Clone doesn't look any better today.

Meg's not posted recently. Depending how today goes they might be a possible lim.

I need to reread the two Es (Enchant, Empathice), I've seen some people suspicious of one or the other but they've blurred together a bit in my mind. I do remember wondering about possible associatives between you and Enchant and TemporalLich but you at least seem towny to me today so I was probably wrong about that.

I'm a bit wary of Gimli's sudden push on Morning Tweet and being so concerned about being in a neighbourhood with her. Seems to me like that should help Gimli read Morning Tweet rather than otherwise. Whereas scum would definitely not want to be in neighbourhoods with players who might be able to read them. So Gimli pushing MT early today does ping me a bit. Along with just now saying he only likes one post in her entire iso when in 729 he was 'still' townreading her - that seems like quite a dramatic shift?

Okay is this a townslip of Imaginality not realizing Enchant was dead?
Or am I misunderstanding what they are saying here? Because I am not sure I even understand what Imaginality is saying here. I am really tired so that might be it.

[DragonEater70]

I need to reread the two Es (Enchant, Empathice), I've seen some people suspicious of one or the other but they've blurred together a bit in my mind. I do remember wondering about possible associatives between you and Enchant and TemporalLich but you at least seem towny to me today so I was probably wrong about that

Enchant is dead, died in the night w/ Kyoko, you want Empath
Idk about Gimli suddenly pushing Morning Tweet, maybe it's paranoia? If Gimli genuinely fears MT then this makes sense, anything outside of it doesn't to me. Idk what hood means but I assume it's the nightmare, the shift is notable tho
You scumread me yesterday since I was being self-conscious, that's how I am sometimes, fear of failing
I'm down with eliminating Clone, open intent to be inactive, feel meg ghosted but that's usually to things beyond someone's control, so Clone > Meg if I had to choose between the 2

Hood is short for neighborhood. If you are not sure what that is, look up "neighbor" in the wiki (too lazy to do it myself. But basically neighborhood is a provate thread between people that unlike masons or scum, doesn't indicate they are the same alignment.
The nightmare has a PT which is basically a neighborhood, but Gimli is also claiming being part of a neighborhood with MT.

[DragonEater70]

From the rules:

There is at least one guaranteed moderator lie present in this game. Your role, alignment, and any abilities you possess will always be truthful. I will never lie to you about what you can do, or who you win with, or if you know anyone else is aligned with you. Anything else in the game could be lied about. The exact things I will lie about have been determined in the review.

@mod: would saying "Last night, I saw in a dream that Save the Dragons could kill another player" be a possible moderator lie or would it fail the "I will never lie to you about what you can do" condition given Save the Dragons is one of the players reading your post?

I just realized that I badly misread the intent of tue question here.
Yeah there's no associative, sorry Imaginality for the weird push.

[DragonEater70]

I Do think STD's reaction is +town but I'm not sure what's up with that info being posted SOD though.

What's SOD?

[DragonEater70]

Isn't it ideal to vig Clone and eliminate someone moderately active?

Probably

[DragonEater70]

Isn't it ideal to vig Clone and eliminate someone moderately active?

Maybe, but it would be a pretty telegraphed shot. Usually vigilantism work better as an ambush

We should probably get Clone while we have him right where we want him

Hmm good point. I guess if we don't vote fenrir we can go Clone.
Still need to do Fenrir's ISO.

Willing to say imaginality has been consistently keeping up seeming like town to me. I'm not quite willing to bet on it as hard as my other reads

HURT: Drew, TL, Gimli, DragonEater, Kawaii, imaginality, Morning

I like this team.

HURT: Drew, TL, Gimli, DragonEater, Kawaii, imaginality, Morning, Rat

(yes these are 8, obviously only 7 of them will go in but I think any one of the 8 is fine to go in at this stage)

[DragonEater70]

Isn't it ideal to vig Clone and eliminate someone moderately active?

Maybe, but it would be a pretty telegraphed shot. Usually vigilantism work better as an ambush

We should probably get Clone while we have him right where we want him

Hmm good point. I guess if we don't vote fenrir we can go Clone.
Still need to do Fenrir's ISO.

Willing to say imaginality has been consistently keeping up seeming like town to me. I'm not quite willing to bet on it as hard as my other reads

HURT: Drew, TL, Gimli, DragonEater, Kawaii, imaginality, Morning

I like this team.

HURT: Drew, TL, Gimli, DragonEater, Kawaii, imaginality, Morning, Rat

(yes these are 8, obviously only 7 of them will go in but I think any one of the 8 is fine to go in at this stage)

For someone who apparently has insight on me your list is lacking.

Hurt me and I'll hurt you, deal?

[DragonEater70]

Also I don't have much insight on you except that you are townie by meta.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Gimli

HURT: Kawaii, MT, TL, Drew, Rat, Imaginality, Empath

I actually missed this, why the hell are you voting Gimli?

[DragonEater70]

DragonEater did Kyoko claim anything like mason in the nightmare? Also moderator lies, StD could also be any alignment. 759

The softed mason, they also said who their partner is but can't out them because of this:

Honestly I think it's protown to out Kyoko's mason partner because scum already know who it is based on the Kyoko kill.
However I won't do it without consensus from the nightmare runners because I could always be missing something.
Pedit: Flea, I know who's Kyoko's partner so that's who am clearing.

No. While the Kyoko kill is INCREDIBLY concerning, there's a non-zero chance it was just a lucky shot. No reason to hand scum the other one, just in case.

[DragonEater70]

Why the nightmare gave porky a gun is beyond me, I'm tempted to call BS personally here.

Porky says he was trolling, and he doesn't claim gun anymore.

[DragonEater70]

I'm not touching Gimli with a 10ft barge pole.

HURT: Flea, Gimli, Botanical Rat

How come?

[DragonEater70]

flipping std will get us to know if we can trust or cannot trust or give any weight to the messenger. I suppose we're gonna have that in the following gamedays as well.

I don't mind you guys joining me on the Fen wagon so if that's your reasoning for it, go ahead.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry Flea, I don't know why I got your hopes up (or maybe I do? )

Anyway since the discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere and since nobody seems very interested in a Fenrir lim, and nobody is voting Clone either, I might as well go ahead and make a case for scum Empath.

I did an ISO of them and this is what I came up with:
Their posts feel kinda fake, like theatre, you know? Like,
#84 - you townreading me and BR? Surprised Pikachu face (When they townread BR just a few posts back, mind you).
Then, 123, 125, 127, 129, 241, - Engagement with, vote and subsequent unvote on Enchant, all feel like theatre
136 - "Kyoko might be pocketing Eater", is sooo random and I don't like it.
Questioning whether or not my vote was RVS multiple times was also weird but not necessarily AI. However in context it strengthens my feeling of their posts sounding fake.

Also overall tone of posts (for example, 66, 273) just doesn't feel the same as in 2113 where they were very actively scumhunting. This game they are barely scumreading anyone.
And then there is the thing of them only casting 3 serious votes, two of which being a somewhat scummy wagonning of a wagon that I started (check out Mastin's "butter zone" scum tell). Then voting Gimli with no explanation (yes they have them as a scumlean in the D1 readlist, but the scumlean isn't explained at all).

Another point is that the readlist itself just feels empty of content? Like I honestly don't know what it's trying to achieve, except maybe an excuse to push DD who was being pushed at the time Empath posted the readlist.

VOTE: Empath

[DragonEater70]

Yeah I've been writing this post for a long time so the first sentence is actually in reference to #913

[DragonEater70]

Also I'm fine with limming Fenrir as well if you guys are down for it.

[DragonEater70]

Also overall tone of posts (for example, 66, 273) just doesn't feel the same as in 2113 where they were very actively scumhunting. This game they are barely scumreading anyone.

EBWOP: Newbie 2113, that is.

[DragonEater70]

@Mod can we get a VC please?

[DragonEater70]

@Kawaii, random question but what do you think about Empath? And why about Porkens?

[DragonEater70]

@Kawaii, random question but what do you think about Empath? And what about Porkens?

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

We should probably get Clone while we have him right where we want him

VOTE: Clone

You don't think Fenrir or Empath are better eliminations today?
Also, since you are engaging might as well ask: Do you agree with Gimli that Fenrir is giving off Kira energy? Or do you think they are playing more similar to their town game (I.E. Donner Party esque)?
I'm genuinely interested in your opinion, also because I suck at reading Fenrir.

[DragonEater70]

I think kawaii is town

I think so too.

[DragonEater70]

Do you agree with Gimli that Fenrir is giving off Kira energy?

Fenrir is Kira-esque in posting, with one exception,

willingness to die

,

My role makes it okay if I die

In the Death Note game STD kept asking, "Am I?" in an attempt to dissuade people in him being Kira, claiming Follower to look to Kira, when he was Kira, in this game he accepts death instead of pushing the blame to someone else, without this it would be a Kira-esque game, but with this it's not in my eyes

Yeah I think a major difference here is that in the Death Note game Fenrir surviving D2 meant a win, dying meant a loss. Whereas here if they are scum their team can win without them which could potentially make them fine with dying?

Don't really want to make a firm opinion on this because I do think it's possibly a mech thing that's causing Fen to be okay with dying.

However, Kawaii could you tell me which posts you found Kira-esque?

Also StD, what exactly is sucking your WIM?

[DragonEater70]

Okay this reaction is so bizzare.
Can you just claim if you want us to kill you anyway?
And can you tell me who you think is scum in the N1 hood, if anyone?

[DragonEater70]

Do you realize people are not voting you right now? I don't get the defeatist attitude, at all.

Pedit: Okay that's legit annoying, I can understand that.
Do you think someone else was scum on N1 hood or do you think my crackpot theory is right about scum having access to the PT secretly, just unable to talk?

[DragonEater70]

Fair, I am not demanding a role claim right now.

[DragonEater70]

Okay.
IDK if this is actually scum AtE but I want to believe you are genuinely frustrated.
Let me ISO Temp and Tweet and see if they are possibly scummy and I missed it.

[DragonEater70]

I will add your Nightmare Runners of: Morning Tweet, TemporalLich, DragonEater70, Kyoko Kirigiri, Gimli, Botanical Rat, and Save The Dragons to the PT before resolving the rest of the flip.

@Kawaii

[DragonEater70]

Korina, i belive, created a game constructed ENTIRELY out of lies once. Quote me on that I'm pretty sure it's true. Could have been someone else. The point im trying to make is that They're definitely on the "moderators can and should deceive the players" side of the argument.

I can believe that due to the game's theme and overall vibe.

Fine. I won't push an StD lim unless someone hardclaims being responsible for the start of day message and that it is 100% reliable.

I agree with you that mechwise the kingmaker (or king?) shot was very damning, but it could as easily be scum who thought "hmm Ranger is a strong player, if I end the day now then Clone will be the natural suspect. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I don't think it's impossible this is what scum thought. If we eliminate Clone I want it to be based on reads rather than pure mech.

Now, there's much time left on the deadline so let me see if I can get Clone to participate and squeeze a read out of him.

[DragonEater70]

at least I came back after a prod lul
VOTE:
Vote Gimli

Hi bud, you are currently being voted.
If you are town, you should at least make minimal effort to participate and steer town in the right direction.
So can you tell me some things?
1. Why the Gimli vote?
2. What do you think about the Empath case?
3. Do you have anyone you townread? Specifically anyone you townread that is not based on a consensus townread?
4. Do you have anyone you disagree with the consensus townread on? Why?

If the questions are too much, just answer the first two for now.

[DragonEater70]

Dragons reaction is tricking me enough to want to kill our man. we've got him right there

What does this mean?

[DragonEater70]

Welcome, Clone! You are an Falsely Prophetic Fridge (Mafia Compulsive Inverse Public Role Inquisitor), and aligned with The Horrible Dreams.

I had a dream once that this fridge would talk in riddles, but none of its riddles made sense. It kept saying "I saw in a dream" something happened, and then it never happened. But the most disturbing part about it, was how it proved these things didn't happen.

Your personal abilities are as follows:
~ Defaults: You have your voice, and your vote. You may use both of these to try to kill whoever you think is not aligned with you.
~ Compulsive: Each night you are alive, you must take actions with all your personal abilities.
~ Inverse: All your actions will return the opposite result of what they should.
~ Public: All of personal abilities results will be publicly posted by the mod. This will be posted with daystart as "I saw in a dream... (feedback)."
~ Role Inquisitor: You may ask the mod a question about another player's role, excluding their alignment. The moderator will truthfully respond about this. For example, you may ask the mod if this player possesses a kill, or if this player may learn information about another player.

Your factional abilities are as follows:
~ Private Communication: You have access to The Abyss, which is located here.
~ Secret Identities: You know that Empathice, KawaiiKame, and MegAzumarill are also aligned with The Horrible Dreams
~ Factional Kill: The Horrible Dreams have access to a factional kill, which you may use every night in an attempt to kill another player in the game.

You win if The Horrible Dreams compromise half the town, and all threats to your faction are dead, or if this situation is impossible to prevent.

Please confirm you have read this PM by submitting your flavor back to me OR by posting in your PT.

Wtf is this gamethrow?

[DragonEater70]

I was really looking forward for this game man :[

Yeah and it seemed we were on the right path with the Empath wagon and possible clone vig!

I'm so upset!

[DragonEater70]

anyway thanks korina for modding, and I'm really sorry this happened in one of your games

I think town would have this in the bag tbh, but kawaii was doing really well

I'm not signing up for any mafia games for a while but ofc unrelated to the trolling

gg hope to play with everyone again <3

Yeah catching Kawaii would require a fluke.

[DragonEater70]

Also GG, really liked to cooperate with you, nightnare friends. Can't believe we actually had an all-town nightmare!

[DragonEater70]

clone/std/empathice

of course, thats too easy. but I think we should clear those slots now.

std always limbait lol

Yeah lol

[DragonEater70]

if this game wasn't enough for your mafia fix, please consider signing up for demon slayer mafia here: viewtopic.php?t=90609 7 slots left!

Thanks I needed this

[DragonEater70]

DE the towniest player in the game with the IC role

Yeah it was so funny because the role was useless.
I would've needed to try really hard to get anyone to vote me past D1 tbh.

[DragonEater70]

Also GG, really liked to cooperate with you, nightnare friends. Can't believe we actually had an all-town nightmare!

MT was a cultist! lmao

Oh he was! That's just incredible! I guess your suspicion was justified after all.

[DragonEater70]

Also I see your claim about mayhem ensuing was just for show.

[DragonEater70]

MT's alt win-con was the thing I was most interested to see because that's so interesting to play around.

Also, a very key design principle that I was hoping would come up: If DE got culted, he'd be revealed as a cultist instead, since MT's recruitment retains all abilities.

Ohhhh
Well I did ask to be neighborized, maybe MT would've culted me at some point if the game continued long enough.

[DragonEater70]

Also I see your claim about mayhem ensuing was just for show.

wanted to be alive d2, thought there'd be scum in the hood but I also softed it in the main thread, so much so that at least kawaii thought I was pgo which was more or less the goal

I thought you were supersaint or something similar

[DragonEater70]

I might try to salvage some concepts and ideas from this setup and run a successor to this one as well, just so some of the roles from this setup see the justice they deserve.

Yeahhhhh please
Honestly the nightmare mechanic was SO fun and ingenious! I really loved it, in fact I want to nominate it for best mechanic for the scummies.

[DragonEater70]

@Korina: I feel genuinely bad, this game is genius conceptually, who knows if someone would notice the PT leak down the line since Empath was being built up to being eliminated, sad it ended this way... MT's role should definitely be in the successor game, even if it's a spiritual one, thought of nking MT N2 with how town she seemed, wanted to see if I could solo the game to the end, c'est la vie

Honestly there was a possibility you could solo the game. I was seriously considering giving you the doc on the N2 nightmare, haha.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I just posted an official nomination for the scummies.

GG despite the gamethrow, and thanks for Korina for making this beautiful setup!

[DragonEater70]

I might try to salvage some concepts and ideas from this setup and run a successor to this one as well, just so some of the roles from this setup see the justice they deserve.

Yeahhhhh please
Honestly the nightmare mechanic was SO fun and ingenious! I really loved it, in fact I want to nominate it for best mechanic for the scummies.

seconded the nomination, I have to say I was having the greatest time with this game, both from a mechanical standpoint it was really interesting and chaotic and fun and also the playerlist was perfect with one very unfortunate exception

Agreed, the playerlist was amazing!

[DragonEater70]

The bit about becoming as powerful as a nightmare (the phrase I used D1 that led to discussion of whether it was a crumb (which it was since my ability was kinda the same as the Nightmare voters')).

Oooooh so it was a crumb! Honestly a cool crumb but a bit confusing.

[DragonEater70]

No redactions on my PT, though it's mainly ramblings.

[DragonEater70]

PTs

Mod PT -> Released
Dead PT -> Released
Review PT -> Released
Specator PT -> Released

Liminal Space (Mentor PT)
Backrooms (Neighborhood)

The Abyss (Horrible Dreams PT)

Fortress Sanctuary (Masons PT)
Limbo (Graveyard Medium PT 1)
Limbo (Graveyard Medium PT 2)

Nightmare 1
Nightmare 2
Nightmare 3
Nightmare 4
Nightmare 5

Doctor Drew Notes
Carl (Hydra PT)
DragonEater70 Notes

Actions

Spoiler: D1

StD cannot submit.
Empathice hammers Ranger -> Successful.
Drew forces Morning Tweet into the Nightmare -> Successful.
DragonEater70 does not reveal.

Spoiler: N1

Nightmare gives Gimli the vigilante shot.

Botanical Rat vends to Gimli

-> Fails, JK'd by Meg.

Meg jailkeeps Botanical Rat

-> Successful

Empathice strongman ninja kills Kyoko

-> Successful.

Kawaii flavor cops StD

-> Successful

Clone inquisits StD with "Can this player kill another in the game?"

-> Successful.

Kyoko heals Flea

-> Successful.

MT neighborizes Gimli

-> Successful

MT cults Kyoko

-> Fails, Kyoko dies.

TL cops Drew

-> Successful

Enchant hides with Clone

-> Successful

imaginality invents Rolestop for Porkens

-> Successful

Gimli does nothing

Porkens does nothing

Feedback:

MT:

Your target died last night and could not be recruited. You have one shot left.

MT + Gimli:

Last night, you inexplicably clipped out of reality and into

The Backrooms

. You may find your new neighborhood, and talk with your neighbor here. This message is being sent to

Morning Tweet

and

Gimli

.

Gimli

: Last night, the walls of the Nightmare shifted and changed for you, leading you into a secret room with a gun. You were awarded a 1-Shot Vigilante ability, usable at night. Its power is detailed below.

Nightmare Gun

Vigilante:

Once per game, you may target another player in the game and attempt to kill them. The ability being awarded to you is announced at the start of the day, but not that you were the one awarded it.[/b]

Enchant

: Your knowledge of the Nightmare lets you know that

1

player that cannot win with

The Good Dreams

was involved in the Nightmare last night.

Kyoko Kirigiri + Enchant

Unfortunately, you've ended up dead. You woke up from your dream, and must face reality now. This is a very eloquent way of saying - you died. There are certain mechanics in the game that enable living-dead interaction, so I would recommend continuing to read the game, just in case. You never know if they might effect you. viewtopic.php?t=90644

KawaiiKame (to be posted in the mafia pt

: Your target's flavor is: I had a dream once that there was the corpse of a great beast, and it served as a graveyard of souls. You could freely communicate with them, and they could communicate with you, but someone had to be willing to be the conduit. I was that conduit.

Porkens:

Last night you had a dream. The scenes swirl around your sleeping mind. So many people, so much is happening. The dream logic pulls you along inexorably, like a log in a river, the current too strong to resist. If only you could become as powerful as this Nightmare... but for now, at least, you can focus enough to create a silence within it, to shape a place where the swirling stops, where everything is still. Respite, just for a moment... but maybe, that moment is enough to reshape the dream.

You have a 1-shot Rolestop invention. It's power is detailed below.

Invention

Rolestop:

Once per game, you may target another player in the game, preventing all actions from effecting them tonight. This action takes priority over any other actions that would effect your target.

Posted at daystart:

"The Nightmare Runners awarded the Vigilante ability last night."

Also posted at daystart:

"I saw in a dream that

Save The Dragons

could kill another player in the game.

TL:

Your target is aligned with

The Good Dreams

.

Is there an expected date for the PT release?

[DragonEater70]

yeah I'd never figure it out

but in fact it does suck to play from a position where the forum glitched this hard, just horrible position to play from

I think even if no one notices, this was enough to compromise the game

btw everytime this thread gets bumped I feel a little sad that we couldn't play this out. especially being the first game with town shared powers that I got to participate in actively and they even trusted me with the vig! :/

Yeah it's such a freaking shame.