Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Alianna]

3.02

Votecount 3.02

Ranger (2):

Doctor Drew, Vanderscamp.

Doctor Drew (1):

AurorusVox.

Bellaphant (1):

Enchant.

Not Voting (3):

Bellaphant, Ranger, Aureal.

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to condemn someone to the fiery pits of

hell

.

The phase deadline is in (expired on 2023-03-27 11:43:23).

[Bellaphant]

I enated some (yours, but anyone's) opinion about the serve onto aisa from vander Ans if it meant anything about their alignment

[Aureal]

How do you come to the conclusion that I spend about half of the game shitting on Ranger's Arko read, and then when someone (I don't remember who) asked me why I shouldn't have Arko as super town if I think Ranger is spewing Arko, I actively argue against that line of logic?

You mean 547? "I think it's more likely they're town if Ranger is scum but I could easily be wrong. If I were 100% confident that it was spew, then I would townread him as strongly." This isn't really what I would call 'actively arguing against that line of logic'. This doesn't really have any sort of conclusion at all, it's a lot of handwaving. Rather like could come from a scumpartner who doesn't want to be seen as too strongly linked to Arko but not trying to actively sabotage Arko's rep since Arko needs to be credible enough to win a heaven vote (or not get chosen by the martyr thread on judgement day).

If that team "makes sense" to you with all of our imo extremely unlikely scum/scum interactions, wtf team does not make sense?

I like how you instantly responded to call your interactions "extremely unlikely scum/scum". As if that's exactly what you were trying to make them look like and are upset that someone isn't reading it like that. Doesn't really seem like a townie perspective- a townie

knows

their interactions aren't scum/scum.

@aureal, I don't think my aisa read was a surprise?

I don't think it should've been a surprise that you might vote her, no. I don't think it was entirely clear you

were

going to until you did it, you'd been talking about both her and Vander.

Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.

The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where? Seems like a drastic statement from someone who hasn't been giving a lot in the way of solving or reads lately.

I wasn't quite at a 'pushing' state for that team yet, more of a 'this is where my thoughts seem to be leading' state. But the reactions from you two are making me feel like I struck a nerve. It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading. We literally only have to catch two scum. Don't even need to bother seeing if I'm right on him if I'm right on the other two, because the game will be over.

[Vanderscamp]

Ok, lol. Why suddenly so passionate, after I just said I'm moving towards voting Ranger, your big scumread? Shouldn't that make you feel better?

I'm trying to solve here, and I'm not seeing you doing it with only the same ol' one scumread. Even if we are going to vote Ranger here, I want to try to have as much information out there on how people connect to others, particularly if we get it wrong and Aisa needs to try to save things. A task which I wouldn't envy, having to sit around and watch but not be able to interact.

Well, by the same logic, shouldn't you be happy with my game-long push on the person you're currently voting for?

I like the Ranger vote but I still think your perspective is very weird.

[Vanderscamp]

I don't have any strong scumreads other than Ranger though.

That's a problem.

There's three scum. I asked my question for good reason. If I were scum I'd have scumbuddies. So who are they?

How can you have Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko as your team? It feels pretty unbelievable that you think that, that's probably one of the worst predictions it's possible to have, with the possible exception of something involving OE/Ranger, and probably not even then.

This is also correct and is also a problem.

What do you make of the callout which makes no sense?

Ok, lol. Why suddenly so passionate, after I just said I'm moving towards voting Ranger, your big scumread? Shouldn't that make you feel better?

A good question.


Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.

The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.

What do I think of the call-out that makes no sense?

I hate it, independent of your alignment.

[Vanderscamp]

How do you come to the conclusion that I spend about half of the game shitting on Ranger's Arko read, and then when someone (I don't remember who) asked me why I shouldn't have Arko as super town if I think Ranger is spewing Arko, I actively argue against that line of logic?

You mean 547? "I think it's more likely they're town if Ranger is scum but I could easily be wrong. If I were 100% confident that it was spew, then I would townread him as strongly." This isn't really what I would call 'actively arguing against that line of logic'. This doesn't really have any sort of conclusion at all, it's a lot of handwaving. Rather like could come from a scumpartner who doesn't want to be seen as too strongly linked to Arko but not trying to actively sabotage Arko's rep since Arko needs to be credible enough to win a heaven vote (or not get chosen by the martyr thread on judgement day).

If that team "makes sense" to you with all of our imo extremely unlikely scum/scum interactions, wtf team does not make sense?

I like how you instantly responded to call your interactions "extremely unlikely scum/scum". As if that's exactly what you were trying to make them look like and are upset that someone isn't reading it like that. Doesn't really seem like a townie perspective- a townie

knows

their interactions aren't scum/scum.

@aureal, I don't think my aisa read was a surprise?

I don't think it should've been a surprise that you might vote her, no. I don't think it was entirely clear you

were

going to until you did it, you'd been talking about both her and Vander.

Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.

The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where? Seems like a drastic statement from someone who hasn't been giving a lot in the way of solving or reads lately.

I wasn't quite at a 'pushing' state for that team yet, more of a 'this is where my thoughts seem to be leading' state. But the reactions from you two are making me feel like I struck a nerve. It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading. We literally only have to catch two scum. Don't even need to bother seeing if I'm right on him if I'm right on the other two, because the game will be over.

Arko read - someone's asking me "shouldn't you have Arko as super towny" and I explain why I don't.
That's my conclusion, it's not handwavey, and our conversation is the opposite of me trying not to sabotage Arko's rep.
Especially if you think I'm scum with Ranger, the best thing I can do in this situation is say that yes, I think Ranger is spewing Arko town and Arko would be obviously town if Ranger flipped.
If my goal is to look super good from hard bussing, why not do that?



Townie knows their interactions are scum/scum - Are you serious?
This is a higher level of "nitpicking" than whatever the hell OE was talking about on page 3.
Like, when I posted "FIRST" I know that I didn't do it as scum, because I'm not scum, but if someone tried to tell me that me posting "FIRST" was scummy, I wouldn't say "no way man it's impossible for this to be scum because I know that it wasn't a scum post."

I'm talking about what it should look like from your perspective and it's baffling that I would even need to explain this.



"It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading." - I'm outraged in the sense that you saying this is extremely scummy because I find it very hard to believe that you actually think this.
Btw I agree with you that also hate Ranger's comment about there definitely being one scum between us, that made no sense at all and is scummy.

But I think your recent posts have also been extremely scummy and I think you're probably together.

[Vanderscamp]

Good news, Ranger, I've found another scum read!

[Enchant]

I feel myself out of place.

I don't like being ignored you know.

[Bellaphant]

Hi enchant, what do you want to talk about?

[Enchant]

Hi enchant, what do you want to talk about?

Who you think are mafia

[furtiveglance]

Prodding AurorusVox and Doctor Drew.

[Doctor Drew]

Ahhh sorry, didn't realize I didn't post at all yesterday, been a long couple days but will be back a little later with actual stuffs.

[furtiveglance]

Prodding AurorusVox and Doctor Drew.

I missed that AurorusVox was V/La, prod retracted.

[Doctor Drew]

We have a little under 2 days, we really need to shit or get off the pot.

[Enchant]

We have a little under 2 days, we really need to shit or get off the pot.

You are right.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Doctor Drew]

We have a little under 2 days, we really need to shit or get off the pot.

You are right.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Hey, at least we have some action now.

[Ranger]

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where?

Difficult to explain exactly, but combination of gamestate and your reads/reasons.

I am being near-universally scumread. You are the strongest two pushers of me being scum. You are both pushing me as scum with solves that are objectively terrible. Vanderscamp refuses to name a team of three, or even a team of two, involving me; your team involves Ranger-Vanderscamp.

The pushes are equally terrible and equally backed by bad logic. Yet, if you were scum together, you wouldn't be pointing out how the other's takes are terrible. Vanderscamp wouldn't be pointing out the flaw in your solve if you were scum with him; you wouldn't be so critical of him if you were scum with him.

The gamestate suggests one of you is scum because of how if both of you are town the scum would be doing absolutely nothing at all. It'd require all three scum within {Doctor Drew, AurorusVox, Enchant, Bellaphant}. Only one of them is voting me. If you were both town, then why have I not been voted by all three scum?

It takes four to eliminate and I have two votes on me. That implies scum is already on me, confirming scum in {Vanderscamp, Doctor Drew}.

If Vanderscamp is town, then Doctor Drew must be scum. Who works as a scumbuddy for Doctor Drew? My current thoughts are you.
If Vanderscamp is scum, then Doctor Drew could still be scum but isn't required to be scum.

[Ranger]

Good news, Ranger, I've found another scum read!

Bad news, Vander! You're working with your scumread!

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Let's shake things up here:

VOTE: Doctor Drew

This is l-1.

I'm starting to think Doctor Drew is scum regardless of which of {Vanderscamp, Aureal} is scum.

[Doctor Drew]

Good news, Ranger, I've found another scum read!

Bad news, Vander! You're working with your scumread!

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Let's shake things up here:

VOTE: Doctor Drew

This is l-1.

I'm starting to think Doctor Drew is scum regardless of which of {Vanderscamp, Aureal} is scum.

And you would be incorrect.

But yes this is the save yourself vote I was hoping from you. You saw the opportunity to put me on the verge of elim and couldn't resist.

And all it took was my prod of the game lol.

[Ranger]

And all it took was my prod of the game lol.

I'm familiar with using Slayer's Gambit as a defense as you are right now.

"This scummy action I did was meant as bait, rather than just being a scummy action".

I'm quite certain you're making stuff up by clinging to it.

You did a +scum action.
You've been scumread for that +scum action.
You trying to claim the +scum action was bait is, suffice to say, not convincing.

[Doctor Drew]

And all it took was my prod of the game lol.

I'm familiar with using Slayer's Gambit as a defense as you are right now.

"This scummy action I did was meant as bait, rather than just being a scummy action".

I'm quite certain you're making stuff up by clinging to it.

You did a +scum action.
You've been scumread for that +scum action.
You trying to claim the +scum action was bait is, suffice to say, not convincing.

What are you on about.

The game was very slow and I made a post 'to shit or get off the pot' with less then two days to go, when you were top wagon.

How is that a scum action? Wouldn't ScumMe just lurk with everyone else and let a town you get mis-elimed?

Especially since I already prod dodged, I didn't need to post more.

[Aureal]

Well, by the same logic, shouldn't you be happy with my game-long push on the person you're currently voting for?

Uh, I haven't even voted yet. I don't think you're paying a lot of attention to this. And the rest of that line makes no sense. You're the one who suddenly got upset and developed a scumread on me because I dared suggest that you could be bussing Ranger. Nothing remotely similar the other way around has happened. "I think they're bussing" - "shouldn't you be happy about it" is a rather silly train of thought. I think you're just trying to discredit the read.

Arko read - someone's asking me "shouldn't you have Arko as super towny" and I explain why I don't.
That's my conclusion, it's not handwavey, and our conversation is the opposite of me trying not to sabotage Arko's rep.
Especially if you think I'm scum with Ranger, the best thing I can do in this situation is say that yes, I think Ranger is spewing Arko town and Arko would be obviously town if Ranger flipped.
If my goal is to look super good from hard bussing, why not do that?

C'mon, this isn't that hard to think through. You were townreading Arko, but mildly, and arguing that Ranger's STRONG townread was in bad faith. You two got some mileage out of Ranger accusing you of hypocrisy for also townreading Arko- you haven't forgotten you were townreading him have you? Aisa asked if Arko shouldn't be spewed town if Ranger was scum and you basically said "I don't know". This makes perfect sense if you're hoping to get voted to heaven next phase and thus worried people will look back at that with the knowledge that you're scum.

Townie knows their interactions are scum/scum - Are you serious?
This is a higher level of "nitpicking" than whatever the hell OE was talking about on page 3.
Like, when I posted "FIRST" I know that I didn't do it as scum, because I'm not scum, but if someone tried to tell me that me posting "FIRST" was scummy, I wouldn't say "no way man it's impossible for this to be scum because I know that it wasn't a scum post."

I'm talking about what it should look like from your perspective and it's baffling that I would even need to explain this.

Why is "it's impossible for Vander to be bussing Ranger" what it should look like from my perspective? The only argument I've been seeing in all of this is your own argument that it's against your meta. Obviously self-meta is hardly very useful. If I told you that I must be town because I only ever roll town, would you take that very seriously?

Even if you don't normally bus partners, I would suggest that this setup makes it especially favorable as a strategy because it's not based on outnumbering town. In most cases, you're delaying a win by doing so, and thus making it harder to achieve. Here, you don't need to be delaying anything because only two mafia need to enter heaven. You have an extra scum partner.

"It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading." - I'm outraged in the sense that you saying this is extremely scummy because I find it very hard to believe that you actually think this.
Btw I agree with you that also hate Ranger's comment about there definitely being one scum between us, that made no sense at all and is scummy.

But I think your recent posts have also been extremely scummy and I think you're probably together.

So do you disagree with Ranger's comment that it's the two of us who are most strongly pushing her?

[Aureal]

"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where?

Difficult to explain exactly, but combination of gamestate and your reads/reasons.

I am being near-universally scumread. You are the strongest two pushers of me being scum. You are both pushing me as scum with solves that are objectively terrible. Vanderscamp refuses to name a team of three, or even a team of two, involving me; your team involves Ranger-Vanderscamp.

The pushes are equally terrible and equally backed by bad logic. Yet, if you were scum together, you wouldn't be pointing out how the other's takes are terrible. Vanderscamp wouldn't be pointing out the flaw in your solve if you were scum with him; you wouldn't be so critical of him if you were scum with him.

I'll ask you too. What is the 'flaw in my solve' other than it just apparently being impossible for Vander to be bussing you because you say so? You're both just huffing that it's impossible, which doesn't do anything to convince me that you aren't working together.

The gamestate suggests one of you is scum because of how if both of you are town the scum would be doing absolutely nothing at all. It'd require all three scum within {Doctor Drew, AurorusVox, Enchant, Bellaphant}. Only one of them is voting me. If you were both town, then why have I not been voted by all three scum?

Not following that logic. This isn't ELO, a quickhammer wouldn't end the game. If you're town, scum aren't all going to want to pile on just cuz since that will trigger judgment day for Aisa to make a last ditch effort to eliminate a mafiaoso. They ought to be worried about piling onto a bad wagon. Instead, what I saw was the two people I'm suspecting of being teamed with you voting you early and easily, which makes me feel they're not worried about being on a bad wagon. Even Enchant got worried at how fast that wagon got to e-1.

[Aureal]

@ranger, I asked you a question you may have missed.

You may have missed this, but I've been reconsidering my Vander read from as early as the end of Hell 1. I'm still figuring my read out on Vander.

By the way, where does this come from? I don't see anything indicating you were reconsidering Vander before, you weren't shy about townreading him during the heaven phase:

{Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{Bloodb0t}
{Doctor Drew}
{Oclaxian Empire}

Think I like this better.

That’s maybe a townie perspective more than not.

I agree Vander is town.

If Vanderscamp is town (my current theory), it's because the scum believe Vander in heaven is +scum.

Ranger, if I'm to believe you're town, what sort of scumteam am I supposed to believe is reasonable? Bella and AV feel town from their posting style, so that would leave me just Vander/Drew/Enchant. And nobody thinks Drew and Enchant are scum together because of the Arko/Oclax fight to start the game.

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, been on a plane, will look properly before deadline