I made a Normal role tier list

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I made a Normal role tier list

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:18 pm

Post by GuyInFreezer »

It's based on my opinion it's not to be treated as 100% truth yadda yadda. I also viewed the roles mostly from town PoV as mafia is already considered as informed group and most of these roles are designed to find mafia. This also assumes that there are no modifiers attached on these roles.

Tier List


S:
Cop, JoaT, Role cop, Strongman
A:
Alien, Commuter, Doctor, PT Cop, Roleblocker, Role Watcher, Security Guard, Traffic Analyst, Watcher, Town-only power roles
B:
Babysitter, Bodyguard, Detective, Gunsmith, Hider, Jailkeeper, Neapolitan, Psychologist, Tracker, Follower, Voyeur, Rolestopper, Universal Backup, Visionary
C:
Role Finder, Inspector, Mailman, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Reporter, Shield, Vanilla Cop
D:
Checker, Enabler, Encryptor, Fruit Vendor, Motion Detector, Visitor, Miller [VT is here for reference]
F:
Traitor


Alien
is a role that both roleblocks and rolestops target. It has a "jailkeeper" problem where the player must decide whether they want to risk roleblocking the target for the sake of protection, but in a game with multiple kill sources this role can be stronger than doctor. A tier.

Babysitter
is a doctor but with a potential of double town death. So it has to stay below Doctor. B tier.

Checker
... checks self to see if player is roleblocked. Even considering the niche uses of this role I really don't see it doing anything important 99% of the time. D tier.

Commuter
prevents player from being targeted. Commuter without being X-shot is insanely strong. As town, you have no reason to not commute unless you want to be targeted by actions or something. As mafia, you have 0 reason to not commute every night. However, while it is very strong role, I don't think it deserves S tier as commuter can really only affect themselves. A tier.

Cop
needs no explanation. S tier.

Detective
checks if target has performed a nightkill before. So in normal Normal game (heh), getting a positive is basically a cop guilty. The only caveat is though, is that this role really works from N2 and onward. So, B tier.

Doctor
saves target. Pretty straightforward and easy to use, and its effect is powerful. Even the hint of this role's existance can make mafia hesitate on choosing optimal nightkill targets. But actually saving someone from nightkill is actually harder than it can look. Mafia doctor is also a thing to fool gunsmith, etc. A tier. S tier if doctor manages to protect nightkill.

Enabler
enables a role. I think this role exists to nerf the role it's tied to. So I consider this role a negative utility role. D tier.

Encryptor
allows a daytalk. It sounds pretty powerful especially for mafia. But games these days have daytalk available as a default. D tier.

Role Finder
is nerfed role cop that can only find the role it's tied to. Which is usually 1 positive out of, well, rest of the playerlist. C tier.

Follower
is basically tracker but instead of target, learns action performed instead. It can be informative but like its brothers (tracker, voyeur), it is inconclusive. B tier.

Fruit Vendor
... gives fruit. It can confirm its role to someone else. It could
maybe
prove itself to be town when there is only one mafia left, but even then it's not 100% and very niche. D tier.

Gunsmith
returns positive on set roles. It can find mafia, vig, or cop, security guard, etc. It can be informative but it has lot of false positives, and a potential false negative on mafia doctor. False negative is very dangerous in a mafia game. So B tier.

Hider
is basically commuter but with potentital of double death. So I can't put this as a same tier as commuter. B tier.

Inspector
is a voyeur but with whether target is targeted. So it's worse than voyeur. C tier.

Jack of all Trades
gets 1-shot of multiple roles. So it has to be S tier in theory.

Jailkeeper
protects but also roleblocks. It has this whole dilemma of "do I really want to roleblock my target to save my target." So I think this role is strictly worse than doctor or roleblocker. B tier.

Motion Detector
is like inspector but gives positives in both ways. So it's actually worse than inspector. D tier.

Mailman
sends message to player during the night. These kind of roles can either be useless or very strong depends on the player. But the role itself doesn't confirm anything so C tier.

Neapolitan
is technically a role finder but on VT. In normal games there are lot of VTs, so this can successfully confirm targets as town. B tier.

Neighbor/Neighborizer
has PT to talk to. Role strength is dependant on players using them. But role wise it doesn't confirm anything either, so C tier.

Psychologist
is like opposite of detective. It shines at N1 and its power wanes each passing day. I think Psychologist has higher chance to find guilty than detective, but I don't think it belongs in A tier where PT cop is. So B tier.

PT Cop
is... basically a cop. It has false positives like mason and neighbor. But while masons and neighbors are not always in the game, mafia always is. A tier.

Reporter
is checks if someone has acted. I guess it's better than motion detector. C tier.

Role Cop
learns roles. No false positives. Pure and simple. S tier.

Roleblocker
is simple and easy to use. You want someone to not take an action? Use it. It's a strong role as well. A tier.

Role Watcher
is watcher but roles. I rank it as same as watcher as upon targetting the NK target you basically get a confirmed scum in the list. A tier.

Security Guard
is watcher but target gets the result instead. It's slightly worse than watcher but it's also very strong. A tier.

Shield
is bodyguard but has to target a killer instead. It's hard to predict the nightkill. It's even harder to predict the killer. C tier.

Tracker
is one of those informative-but-inconclusive role. So I place it at B tier like its brothers.

Traffic Analyst
is basically a PT cop but false positive on Mailman. Who uses mailman in normal games? A tier.

Universal Backup
basically gives double role. Its tier really depends on the setup. But as a concept, I think it's a B tier since it's a way a faction can recover lost role.

Vanilla Cop
is worse Neapolitan since it gets positive on Mafia Goon too. C tier.

Visionary
is basically security guard but with voyeour. So B tier, a tier below security guard.

Visitor
... visits. That's it. It serves basically no purpose. AND it requires roles like tracker to even confirm things. Treat this as a miller and claim this in your first post so potential tracker doesn't bother to check you. D tier.

Voyeur
is like watcher but with actions. I think action names are weaker than player names so I'm knocking it down a tier and giving it a B tier.

Watcher
gives names of players who visited target. If target is nightkilled watcher basically gets a list that contains scum in it 100%. A tier.

Now for explicitly alignment-specific roles.

All explicitly-town roles except miller get A tier from me solely because having that role makes players confirmed town, and more often than not they can prove it too.

Miller
exists solely to get in cop's way. D tier. Claim this in your first post.

Strongman
bypasses basically all protect and roleblock attempts town throws at them. Easy S tier.

Traiter
is a bad role and you should never use it. I'm putting it in F tier.

EDIT: I forgot about Miller.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:21 pm

Post by Alisae »

I think it would be more interesting to look at these and like modifiers in a tier list under a design lens
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:32 pm

Post by Alisae »

Doctor is an S tier role to me
The ability to guarantee a key player alive is enough. It doesn’t have to stop the kill for it to be powerful. It just has to keep the most important villagers alive.

I would probably argue babysitter A tier as it can be used aggressively

Watcher forces wolves to trade a wolf if they want to kill an important village player. Also probs S tier tbh
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:35 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

I thought about giving watcher S tier, but in the end I decided that cop is just much better in terms of conclusiveness of result. Cop doesn’t need to trade a village player to get a guilty. But yeah Watcher is more closer to A+ if I had them in the tier list.

Babysitter I kept it a tier below doctor and vigilante because of the similar reason why I put jailkeeper a tier below roleblocker and doctor. It could be used like doctor or it could be used like vig, but player has to choose. And unlike doctor it can backfire with double town kill. This would be more B+ than B really.

Because of how I think about the potential to backfire, I would’ve put Vigilante and Vengeful in B tier if they weren’t town-only role. Town-only roles has merit of being unable to be scum while being provable after all.

Doctor I could put in S tier yeah.
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The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
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"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:04 am

Post by Ythan »

Oh cool ego
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:09 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

In post 1, Alisae wrote: I think it would be more interesting to look at these and like modifiers in a tier list under a design lens
I plan to do modifiers too.
It’s just that it took way too long to write this to do both in one night.
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"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:11 pm

Post by N »

heck yeah babysitter
GTKAS

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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:58 am

Post by Enchant »

You forgot to put Vanilla Townie as SS tier.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:43 am

Post by fferyllt »

Vanilla Cop belongs up there, too
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:45 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

and Mafia Goon

maybe 3 of them
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:43 am

Post by implosion »

For those who aren't aware I posted a tier list to help guide mods who don't have a good sense of relative role strength here. Lots of interesting differences between this list and that one. For reference that list was made by me making a list and then schadd_ making some edits that I broadly agreed with.

I think perhaps the starkest difference is rolecop. IMO, it's actually a somewhat weak role for town. There are two axes that you can think of informational roles as living in: reliability, and usefulness. The info that a rolecop gets is 100% reliable, but it's not automatically useful - it's only useful if it helps catch scum fakeclaiming or helps verify a town role that couldn't possibly be scum like miller. It can't distinguish between goons and VTs, which means its results are almost completely worthless on half the player list.

Contrast that with a role like Neapolitan, which I put in the top tier. Neapolitan is both consistently reliable (because the only "false info" it gets is on town power roles, and you don't have to act on it) and useful (because clearing players is good, and VTs are the best players to clear). A rolecop can't get a useful guilty or inno on a player without the setup being designed to make it so.
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