Mini Normal 2296: Pictures of my cat, sometimes | GAME OVER

[Dessew]

Mitillos, my friend!

VOTE: Mitillos

How are you doing?

[Dessew]

Alright. How about you? I believe you've been absent from the site for some time.

I'm doing great 😁 my life's been quite comfortable recently

[Dessew]

Readlist in order of scumminess:

CCGeek
Mitillos
T3
redFF
bristep123
Tchill13
Malakittens
KawaiiKame
DeasVail
Dr Easy Bake
CollegeGoer
Emperor flippyNips

However, IIRC, in principled play you shouldn't give out full readlists on page 3, so I won't tell you if the order is ascending or descending.

[Dessew]

Readlist in order of scumminess:

CCGeek
Mitillos
T3
redFF
bristep123
Tchill13
Malakittens
KawaiiKame
DeasVail
Dr Easy Bake
CollegeGoer
Emperor flippyNips

However, IIRC, in principled play you shouldn't give out full readlists on page 3, so I won't tell you if the order is ascending or descending.

In principled play? What does this mean? What defines these principles?
And yeah this out of the blue read list feels town

An actually complete list would've 1. forcefully pushed us out of the early game 2. telegraphed my innate biases very clearly (unless I lie, which I shouldn't do). I haven't played all that much mafia recently, but I'm pretty sure both of those are bad.

Whadddup gangsters? The party can officially start now

Actually UNVOTE:
I prefer them honey roasted.

Full read list in alphabetical order

bristep123
CCGeek
CollegeGoer
DeasVail
Dessew
Dr Easy Bake
Emperor flippyNips
KawaiiKame
Malakittens
Mitillos
redFF
Tchill13
T3

This I don't buy though. Feels forced in a scummy way.
VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

What do you mean by this?

I doubt doubt the need for a VLA I'm just saying he didn't have to vote someone not in the game beforehand as an introduction.

You voted someone not in the game as an introduction!

Can you walk me through this? I don't think I understand your reasoning.

[Dessew]

I doubt doubt the need for a VLA I'm just saying he didn't have to vote someone not in the game beforehand as an introduction.

You voted someone not in the game as an introduction!

Can you walk me through this? I don't think I understand your reasoning.

whats to walk through? Tchill is attacking T3 for voting the mod to start the game. Tchill voted the mod to start the game

Mitillos' post explains it pretty well that there's a bit more to Tchill's reasoning than that. It'd be nice if you could elaborate further.

I doubt doubt the need for a VLA I'm just saying he didn't have to vote someone not in the game beforehand as an introduction.

You voted someone not in the game as an introduction!

Can you walk me through this? I don't think I understand your reasoning.

whats to walk through? Tchill is attacking T3 for voting the mod to start the game. Tchill voted the mod to start the game

What do you think about redFF and bristep?

[Dessew]

@Mala: Splendid! That's all in order, so you can be leanTown, for now.

@Dessew: Whom are you asking about redFF and bristep? Because it looks like you're asking redFF.

Sorry, I meant to ask you :D (and to quote #105).
I'm on my phone, and it seems it got a little too crowded on my screen to notice the mistake, my bad!

[Dessew]

@Mitillos: my reads have evolved a little, but they haven't changed too much. I'd like to hear a bit more from Kop first, then share.

[Dessew]

It seems we won't just simply get over this random vote topic :/ The underlying question is, as I understand it, is whether modvotes are worse than regular random votes. If they are, then T3's start was bad, and possibly scummy. Even though I've seen some arguments here why that vote was completely okay, originally I was of the same opinion as Tchill (but now I'd say it's not a tell). In any case, this discussion is less about the gamestate and more about what I'd call "advanced theory", and I doubt it can bring us far. Shifting the discussion to the presentation and changes in the arguments would be more fruitful imo.

My list on page 3 was ordered from mafia to town.

College, DEB and Flippy are obviously town. I don't want to present any arguments here, but if you vote them, you need an absolutely unassailable case for that, as far as I'm concerned. DV has been proactive town, I really like their play, and KK doesn't make sense to as mafia. These are my townreads.

My scumreads (including lean-scum) are bristep, Mitillos, redFF and Mala, in this order. RedFF's and bristep's utter refusal to understand Tchill's posts is baffling to me, I think it introduces a kind of chaos mafia wants during the day. Bristep's piggyback is an especially bad look. Mitillos is super sus, I'm happy with my vote where it is. Mala's concerning, she's being way more passive than expected, but we'll see, my read on her is fairly weak.

The rest is roughly null atm.

[Dessew]

Ahaha, Dessew, you're so full of shit. DEB was town but CCGeek was scum when neither had even picked up their role PMs yet?

VOTE: Dessew

I don't think this is a genuine reaction. DEB and CCGeek were on the opposite ends of the list from the very beginning, so why raise this point now? Besides, by that time everyone was distinct gameplay-wise.

[Dessew]

But hey, I'll give you a chance to convince me I'm wrong.

Thank you, daddy uwu
Convince you you're wrong about what? Even if you were town, you haven't made an accusation. Or if it's about whether I'm joking: I'm not.

1. There's no need for distinctness to get a read, but then the reads wouldn't be distinct either. I thought being flaky was a scumtell, and I also didn't want to put Mitillos on the top, in reality they were more like number 3 at the time. But it was close enough, and I figured my read on him was going to evolve anyway when finally posts.

2. I thought there was a reasonable chance that at least one mafia would be eager to get all of them associated with some other players, it helps to blend in. No one was talking about KK, so I put them in the middle.

3. I try to put myself in the other player's shoes, imagine they are town, imagine they are mafia, then draw my conclusions. KK's posts struck me as odd, and I can't place them as mafia. I might be wrong, but this is what I think now.

4. Explained it in my previous post.

5. There was this piggybacking business that I misremembered, so I guess we can remedy that.

@bristep: Sorry, for some reason I thought you'd voted Tchill, my bad :)

[Dessew]

Uh. I have definitely made an accusation. I'm accusing you of being mafia and making your reads up with little actual reference to the gamestate (i.e. "full of shit").

I didn't take that as an accusation, but you do you.

You're the one who brought distinctness up.

So? What's your point? I don't get it.

You said everyone was distinct by the time you made post 51, and that meant you could put CCGeek, KK, and for that matter DEB at vastly different positions of your reads, despite them having no posts at the time.

They're different players and the "discussion" around them was also different, so it makes sense to have different reads on them.

You claim that this is based on whether these players were being mentioned by others, but the only player to mention CCGeek before post 51 was bri placing a (seemingly random) vote on him. You had bri on the top half of your list, so by your stated reasoning, a neutral or lean-scum player was trying to associate themselves with a missing player, and this somehow made the latter's flakiness a scumtell. This is all labyrinthine nonsense.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of my point because this isn't what I said at all.

Your responses are disjointed and incomprehensible at best. I'm very happy with my vote, yet my happiness is tempered by you rolling scum, meaning we can't be on the same side.

Don't be so dramatic, we're playing together, even if on opposite sides /forbiddenhugemoji

Also Dessew, I’m keen to talk about the redFF read. What gives you the impression that their push on tchill is from mafia rather than being proactive in their own way?

I think Tchill's point was already crystal clear before #83, but redFF simplified it so much that it was misleading, then made no attempts to address the parts they disregarded. Then in #104 they misrepresented it again. In the end, the discussion redFF started was based on a statement that's objectively untrue (and we call all check because it's in the thread), but it resembles reality enough that they could've thought (if they're mafia) that it could pass for the truth. What's the town motivation behind this?

[Dessew]

Ofc I’m obv town and maybe my boy flippy is, but how could you be so certain about college without being scum yourself?

That's an old-fashioned, traditional read. I believed his first post was genuine, and I feel vindicated by his subsequent posts. If mafia puts up such a façade, I'd expect it to be rather one-note, but #37, #38, #90 and #91 all come from different angles (still ostensibly from the same place, though). This playstyle would be yield mafia more risks than benefits, don't you agree?

[Dessew]

I had a busy day at work today, and was hoping for a busy thread to come home to :/ (I'm in the greatest not-a-country of the world, if you're confused.)

I would like to hear more from Enchant because College's role is a hot topic. Perhaps we can get to the bottom of it on D1, hopefully.
I'm also looking forward to hearing from Mala.

[Dessew]

College's (now Enchant's) role could be something that might be discussed in a certain PT somewhere, but as far as I can tell, it hasn't been directly discussed in the thread (except by Dessew) for several pages. It was briefly mentioned by DEB and DV in passing, and technically implied as a topic by KK's vote, but that's about it.

Isn't this a quaint thing to say? Mafia can't usually communicate during the day. I know they can sometimes, but not in most cases.
So if that's where your mind takes you and if you're mafia, then you must have daytalk or whatever the mechanic is called.

- Post 166: T3 votes DEB. Dessew does not question this.

There's only so many things I can do at the same time, and I'm pushing you. My top scumread is more important than a "placeholder vote". The vote is bad, though.

- Post 171: KK votes Enchant (college). Dessew does not question this.

College got replaced, and I see no harm in pressuring the replacement. It's unnecessary imo, but I can see a rationale behind it.

[Dessew]

A vote is a vote. If anyone made a push on Enchant, that's one extra vote on the wagon, that's pressure.

DEB is guaranteed town, College/Enchant is almost guaranteed town as far as I'm concerned, also a noob. What am I supposed to ask?

You'll note that I said "might", because in fact, I don't know if this particular setup has daytalk

This is a brazen lie. Let's take a look at the original quote:

College's (now Enchant's) role could be something that might be discussed in a certain PT somewhere

Does anyone actually believe that here Mitillos is wondering if there's daytalk in this game? Come on, no, he isn't. He wanted to be snarky, but slipped up in the process.

Then you look at his most recent post, asks about College's vote on DEB. Town doesn't ask this question. I honestly can't see what you guys can, because his posts have been imo null at best, and recently they've been just screaming mafia to me. Town shouldn't even mention College's vote on DEB at this stage of the game (or possibly ever). We should agree on at least this much.

[Dessew]

It's also pretty dumb that only one player has tried to game solve at all.

That's not true. Aside from me, there's also DV. and DEB, College/Enchant and Flippy get a free pass from me, although not all of them for the same reason (as it should be obvious).

In Normal games, mod need to specify that daytalk and multitask active somewhere.

I can't see anything, so there's no daytalk and mafia can't multitask.

This means Enchant is confirmed town. I doubt Shea would tolerate mafia noticing a mafia-specific moderation irregularity and then commenting on it before he posts about it.

With daytalk in mind, I think #166 implies T3 is mafia. The vote doesn't make much sense, and I was busy pushing Mitillos, so it could be expected that I wouldn't comment. There's a real chance that it was a setup for Mitillos' legalistic nonsense argument. Notice that then he tried to push the narrative with College's vote on DEB, which is an immediate scumtell, regardless of anything else.

Also, I'd put Tchill as lean-town for now, and I'm less worried about Mala.

[Dessew]

Then you look at his most recent post, asks about College's vote on DEB. Town doesn't ask this question. I honestly can't see what you guys can, because his posts have been imo null at best

in this situation, where multiple people who you think are town believe that Mitillos is town and are feeling partial to the case on you, why do you become more convinced of Mitillos being scum, rather than question your view of the game?

I have been listing problems I have with Mitillos' posts, has anyone addressed them?
Also, does your question mean you think I'm town? You wouldn't ask this from mafia.

Maybe I do a question. Why am I obv!town to you @dessew? I mean, I know it’s obvious but in your words

I've been a bit torn on this, but I guess if there's daytalk, then it helps town more if we say it openly. You breadcrumbed being neighbours with DEB, right? It was very obvious, and you also messed up the spoiler tag. Neighbour is a town role afaik, and of all the roles, mafia should be tha least likely to fakeclaim it because if we have any investigative town role, they only need to check one of you, so it's a definite towntell for me.

On that note, even if you don't concede that Mitillos is mafia, we should also establish that he's on some PT because of his slip-up. I have this theory that T3 might be in the same PT, but I'm not 100% about this.

[Dessew]

@Kop: I said in the post that I think putting pressure on Enchant is unnecessary. I mean, it's right there in the post, just read the post, right?

[Dessew]

I think you are confusing neighbors with masons.

Neighbors are players who share a pt, but do not know each others alignments.

Masons are neighbors who are confirmed town to each other.

You're right, I've also confirmed it with the wiki. I have to rethink the game.
Btw, the pink starfish is the yellow cheese's neighbour.

What I'm saying about T3 is that if Mitillos is mafia, then T3 is likely also mafia.

Are there any popular normal setups with neighbours? The role sounds like a nightmare to balance.

We've still got a little more than an hour. The deadline is also during the day for most of us, I think (not for me, though).

[Dessew]

i just saw john wick 4,.,what a picture

I’m gonna see that tomorrow, watched the first one last month but I don’t remember the other two at all

I saw John wick 4, it was pretty good

This is probably a dumb question that brings us nowhere, but why didn't you go to the cinema on the 26th as you planned?

[Dessew]

RNG betrayed me

What do you mean by this?

[Dessew]

Enchant, why are you voting for Mitillos? You haven't given a reason yet.

[Dessew]

Mala and Tchill were very town on the Enchant wagon. They were the ones who made it a viable elimination when I was actually the number 2 choice after T3, there's no reason to do that as mafia.

I'm also slightly townreading bristep. Their post about me was unnecessarily contrarian, what's the scum motivation supposed to be there? Although I don't agree with their reasoning because if you do the maths, keeping both around for just result in a hard confirmed town if I were mafia. I would add, though, that for scum!me it would've made more sense to kill DEB and not Flippy.

What I'm interested in is the fact that Enchant moved onto me, after T3's claim. A Dessew vote would have been far more viable, as it had reached L-2 before people switched to T3. So, why did Enchant not move there but decided to join Dessew and vote for me, instead?

VOTE: Dessew

I actually feel that Miti is my strong townread. I'm willing to follow him on this because this actually makes a shitton of sense.

VOTE: dess

What exactly makes sense here? Yes, Enchant not pushing me makes me look suspicious (they were one of my strongest townreads, though. It would've made sense for them to keep me around). But Mitillos is also trying to make a point out of Enchant voting him, an apparently universal townread, whom only I find scummy, and whom only I have ever voted for (iirc). I don't think it makes me look bad overall.

I've also gone through Mitillos' stuff from the previous day. I tried to keep an open mind, but his posts still read to me as sloppy, made-up gibberish, grasping at straws. I'd really appreciate if someone explained to me why they're supposed to be both town and good because I don't see either.

[Dessew]

Mala and Tchill were very town on the Enchant wagon. They were the ones who made it a viable elimination when I was actually the number 2 choice after T3, there's no reason to do that as mafia.

Why Mala, and not Kop?

It's a bit embarrassing, I forgot about Kop, sorry ':D

Btw, how's the site meta for self-hammers? My knee-jerk reaction would be that eliminating mafia earns you townie points by default, so mafia wants to be on the wagon unless they have a good reason not to. Therefore the self-hammer means the wagon already had all available mafia by the end of the day. Now, this shouldn't clear me or Mitillos because he had an immovable vote on me, and Enchant was one of my strongest townreads. But we should all agree that DV and bristep are town. Let me know if there's some specific site meta why this reasoning might not work.

Having thought a bit more about Mala, I think part of my read on her is due to me taking some of her expressions of confusion, which I see as genuine. My read on College/Enchant had similar foundations, and look how that ended up. Nonetheless, I'm still inclined to see Mala as more town than scum, the evolution of the wagon is still enough to keep her as lean-town (for me).

I'm not as happy with an Enchant elimination

as with a Dessew one, because to me Enchant looks like a shitposter in the style of Not_Mafia, so their posts look NAI to me. Either way, Enchant, someone claimed intent to hammer, you should probably claim now.

Not a fan of directing T3. Either he dies and then we learn stuff, or he survives the night and we see what he says tomorrow. Directing him will almost definitely lead us to some ambiguous situation, where we learn less, e.g. only one person dies, and we can't be sure what happened.

p-edit: Well, never mind, that works too.

What I'm interested in is the fact that Enchant moved onto me, after T3's claim.

A Dessew vote would have been far more viable, as it had reached L-2 before people switched to T3

. So, why did Enchant not move there but decided to join Dessew and vote for me, instead?

VOTE: Dessew

The underlined is why im pretty positive mitillos is town.

Thank you! Regarding the first one, I think I addressed this in my previous post. The argument has two parts. Firstly, Enchant didn't vote me, even though I was the other viable wagon at the time, this indicates that I'm mafia. If that were it all, I couldn't argue with it because it makes perfect sense. However, Enchant didn't just not vote me, they also voted someone else, which is the exact thing that gives the vote any significance. Enchant voted Mitillos, a completely non-viable wagon because by that point there had been one single player willing to eliminate Mitillos, namely me, the supposed scumbuddy. Meanwhile redFF was still pushing the T3 wagon because they didn't like the novice claim. There's a disconnect here: why vote Mitillos if I were on the same team as Enchant?

If anything, Mitillos' post reads as mafia to me. It's right there in his own post that Enchant voted for him, but he refuses to address this point. His posts are full of this intellectual dishonesty, and I think it's a scumtell for him. I mean, he's not an idiot, he's actually a fairly intelligent guy as far as I remember.

Just to make it extra clear: the issue isn't just that he doesn't bring up that Enchant voted specifically him. In fact, it's the opposite: he explicitly (and correctly) says that Enchant voted him, but he refuses to address this matter even though it's not trivial, and as far as I know Mitillos, he must know this. The issue isn't that he's scrumreading me for Enchant's vote. I'm sure you could argue about it either way. The issue is that he doesn't argue for why Enchant voting specifically for him indicates that's I'm mafia.

Tchill, you'll have to explain the second one to me in a bit more detail because I don't get, and it's seems I'm not the only one. The only thing it seems to confirm is that Mitillos' absence from the Enchant wagon shouldn't be taken as town (see above). I guess that makes it technically a weak scumtell in context, but even on its own I'd say it's null.

[Dessew]

@Mitillos: you're vote is on me omnomnom you're not taking it anywhere else, not even to hammer Enchant. And you categorically refuse to consider where the vote you're building your case around was cast. That isn't town.

Regarding the cohesive scumteam, there's daytalk. They can discuss their steps.

I still haven't liked Bristeps logic Re: The NK and how it relates to Dessew. Starting to think there is some connective tissue there. I like making the elim between them.

VOTE: bristep

Went back and checked the VC, should be 3 votes apiece for both bri and Dess.

This isn't town either. When/if I flip town, that clears bristep, but bristep doesn't clear me, so town who scumread both of us would vote me.

VOTE: Dr Drew

[Dessew]

Also, Mala voted that the self-hammer was NAI, is there a consensus for this?

[Dessew]

I didn’t ask your reasoning because clearly my activity was what changed your mind, either current or historic - I would like some comment on my questions though. Are you now saying that you read Dess as town?

I haven’t devoted full thought to the viability of you and Dessew being scum together, but the reason for me expressing my intention to vote you is that I think you’re less likely to be town than Dessew.

Will post more on this later today.

If you think bristep is more likely to be mafia than me, then you also mathematically must think that there's a possibility that bristep is mafia and I'm town. What would scum!bristep's motivation be for defending me at the start of D2 then, when there wasn't even a wagon on me?

[Dessew]

Mala's promised to be obvtown soon, I'd give her time until D3. I genuinely don't think it's a good elimination. She shouldn't be allowed to get to lilo the way she is now, though.

@redFF: why's Dr Drew such a strong scumread for you?

[Dessew]

A lolhammer would've been fine because I'm VT, very towny.

Kop and Tchill are clearly town, and so is T3, but do I really have to say that?

DV and bristep are also townreads for me, albeit I'm not as certain about them

By the middle of D3, Mala needs to be obvtown big time. Otherwise she's probably the best elimination because she really hasn't done anything yet.

redFF hasn't answered my question, even though it's quite relevant, someone please keep pushing him on that. Also, let's not forget that Mitillos is in a PT, and I doubt he's the other mason. On the same note, I'd be surprised if there were more than one mason left in the game, it'd be too strong.