Mini 2295 | Star Trek uPick - Fin!

[Wavelength]

I didn't get my first choice

VOTE: Rogue

[Wavelength]

@mods, VLA until the 25th

Sorry for poor timing

[Wavelength]

If the frogs slot was just Ali, I would vote her for 238.

Strongest scum pings of anything else when I just skimmed through

But I don't think I will be voting for Cakez day 1 this game.

Interestingly, 2nd place is probably Black for 211, but I don't know that the two slots make sense together on a cursory glance.

VOTE: black

[Wavelength]

He gets eliminated day 1 in too many games that he plays in, regardless of alignment.

I do think that the better "play to win con" play would be to vote frogs given my current read of Ali.

But, still don't plan on doing it

[Wavelength]

Interestingly, 2nd place is probably Black for 211, but I don't know that the two slots make sense together on a cursory glance.

VOTE: black

Why would I not want to help eliminate hebi if I was a wolf- is she a wolf?

LLD and Grey seem to think so

This all Black said in this post, why does this scum ping you? Feels pretty innocent to me-unless semi sheeping is scummy to you

They had previously stated that they had their own independent scum read on Hebi in 132, so it seems unnatural for someone who scum reads Aureal themselves to answer this way.

[Wavelength]

If the frogs slot was just Ali, I would vote her for 238.

Strongest scum pings of anything else when I just skimmed through

it is day 1.
We are not even 24 hours into the day yet

I do not know what that has to do with anything

[Wavelength]

I found that post scummy.

It was overly deferential to LLD in a way that feels somewhat reminiscent to how you engaged with me day 1 in our first game together.

It is making promises to do something that you really should not know yet, at this moment, if you are going to be willing to up hold when the time comes. Which makes it feel more like a "establish a cordial relationship with LLD" post instead of a stance that makes sense for town!you to believe.

And it is not in line with how I picture you approaching games when town.

Pedit: @Frogs

[Wavelength]

Like I said, I am not voting you today, so you have plenty of time to town it up before this even matters.

Anyways, back to my VLA

[Wavelength]

It's likely scum is within the Black/hebi wagons, though it's possible they outside of them

who are the scum you are pointing to here? this is vague handwaving

-sc

It is vague, I'm voicing my thoughts on what's likely/wanting to narrow down who in the Black/hepi wagons is most likely scum, making notes

I'm kinda unfamiliar or just have played with a lot of these people in a long time. Anyone being uncharacteristic in how quiet rhey are since voting?

0nly one who fits this is Kokichi

I considered this then considered it could just be bad hours for him.

I feel like I lost the plot in this exchange between Hebi and Kawaii. I am seeing:

Kawaii saying that they expect scum to be

inside the people voting black/hebi

. (the alternative is still possible, just less likely)

--(Kawaii is asked for specifics.)

--(Kawaii responds that they are still working through that.)

Hebi asks if anyone has been uncharacteristically quiet since voting. Given the above, I read this as Hebi asking "uncharacteristically quiet since voting [

black/hebi

]"

Kawaii says Kokichi.

[Except Kokichi has never voted for either Black or Hebi.]

Then Hebi soft

agrees with the idea, saying that the considered the same thing

, but saw an alternate explanation.

[Wavelength]

Kawaii, did you think that Hebi was asking about people being quiet in general? Or did you think that Kokichi was on one of the wagons?

Hebi, how did you intend your question when you asked it, and did you mean it in a way that made you think that Kokichi was a reasonable answer to your question? Did you think that Kokichi was on one of the wagons?

[Wavelength]

I have a feeling it is the lack of contractions. Maybe I sound robotic to you XD

No contractions but yes "XD" is an interesting role play choice lol

[Wavelength]

Popping in to say that I don't think leaving a wagon (that you joined as rvs) because it hit e-2 on page 4 is scummy.

"Wagon big. Wagon fast. Am suspicious."

Is a perfectly plausible townie thought process.

[Wavelength]

And also, kawaii, you did not answer my question for you

[Wavelength]

Thank you.

So both Kawaii and Habi said that they switched from the context of voting inside of [habi/black] mid conversation, but I actually think that it only makes sense for one of them.

Kawaii's response just now made it clear that they were responding to just the most recent post, not the whole chain. So lets look at just the most recent post that each one was responding to.

[Wavelength]

Kawaii:

I'm kinda unfamiliar or just have played with a lot of these people in a long time. Anyone being uncharacteristic in how quiet rhey are since voting?

0nly one who fits this is Kokichi

This seems plausible. Just reading this post, the question is divorced away from the wagons, and it is just about people going quiet.

But here is Hebi:

It is vague,

I'm voicing my thoughts on what's likely/wanting to narrow down who in the Black/hepi wagons is most likely scum, making notes

I'm kinda unfamiliar or just have played with a lot of these people in a long time. Anyone being uncharacteristic in how quiet rhey are since voting?

Hebi is responding to a post that is explicitly saying that they are trying to narrow down the people voting those two. AND has made notes on those people.

Even with narrowing down on the most recent post they are responding to, I don't actually believe that Hebi switched to talking about votes in general.

VOTE: Hebi

[Wavelength]

Hebi feels to be saying what I'm saying yet you see hebi as scum and me as town, why don't you believe Hebi switched to talking about votes in general? I feel this is what happened in hebi's posts

I feel like my post fairly clearly showed the difference between the post that you were responding to vs the post that Hebi was responding to.

And to be clear, the question post was not the issue. It was soft agreeing with you about Kokichi.

[Wavelength]

Hebi feels to be saying what I'm saying yet you see hebi as scum and me as town, why don't you believe Hebi switched to talking about votes in general? I feel this is what happened in hebi's posts

I feel like my post fairly clearly showed the difference between the post that you were responding to vs the post that Hebi was responding to.

And to be clear, the question post was not the issue. It was soft agreeing with you about Kokichi.

Ah yeah, by the tone you feel hebi is implying discussion within the hebi/Black votes but goes onto talk about Kokichi with me?

Yes. Given the post that Hebi was responding to, switching to a general discussion on people going quiet does not seem real.

So, when they agreed with you, and said that they considered the same thing, I think that that is a lie. They were just agreeing/disagreeing to appear engaged in the discussion, despite not actually having been thinking about Kokichi's alignment in that way at all.

[Wavelength]

I didn't get my first choice

VOTE: Rogue

two of my 3 choices were borg, and I did not get either of them

I'm so mad

[Wavelength]

@Hebi, if you reach parity, do you win and leave, or win and end the game?

[Wavelength]

our win con is specifically "achieve numerical parity with all other teams"

Because this sure does read like we have to kill you to me.

[Wavelength]

Sure, I'm in a third party survivor faction with the ability to flavor cop hunt for borg or former borg and neighborize them when I find them.

No one in my hood but I do have other people in my faction. Not gonna out them since our win con is specifically "achieve numerical parity with all other teams" and it'd probably hurt their chances if I outed.

No, it creates a separate qt from my faction qt. One of my other faction members is an inventor who can give borg players a One shot ability. But the third person in my qt is not a borg flavor wise or ability wise.

I do not feel like all of these things even make sense together.

You are borg/former borg.
One your our faction mates is borg themed, and already in a PT with you.
But then you are targeting other former borg to add to different, unrelated borg hood.

That would imply that there are a LOT of borg out there. You+your faction mate + other people for you to hunt down.

[Wavelength]

I requested the borg queen and seven of nine, and got neither.

I would not be surprised if someone is out there that is Picard, and falls under a "borg / used to be borg" title. (I could even see this as the 3rd both in the borg faction that Hebi did not think was borg in flavor for what its worth)

But I don't think I could name a single other borg off the top of my head?

[Wavelength]

No, the third member of our faction is not janeway or Picard, and the wiki entry never mentions they were a borg and our factions flavor isn't even borg themed

Oh, interesting that your faction is not borg themed.

Also, I did not remember that Janeway had been assimilated, but a quick google tells me that a a few of the voyager cast got assimilated / reverted to normal at one point.

[Wavelength]

I mean look, my neighborhood power is very confirmed if you have like borg collective, Picard or janeway. I can verify with anyone who claims including kawaii.

I fully believe you have that ability, because it opens you up to someone forcing you to use it on them.

But I am not sure that it sways me either way when debating killing you.

[Wavelength]

I think that both town and scum are both fairly incentivized towards killing Hebi at this point on the basis of "not my faction"

It is likely nai for basically everyone who has said we kill hebi since hebi has claimed 3rd party.

People considering not killing hebi might be interesting, but I have not really looked at it all that closely

[Wavelength]

Killing Hebi is the right play, and I doubt we will get any more useful information out of this day phase now that Hebi is claimed

[Wavelength]

Oh look.

Both of my scum reads died and flipped town.

I am very good at this game.

[Wavelength]

Thinking about how Hebis ability to know all of our secret lines would work, the only thing that really makes sense to me is a list of

This flavor= This secret

Unless it is something silly like, whoops we all have the same thing.

So, that role looks like a way for scum to "punishment" us for claiming flavor for no reason, so the claims that have happened today, probably should not have included flavor.

[Wavelength]

GreyIce, did you read the sample town role pm during day 1?

[Wavelength]

I mean, I do it every game lol

[Wavelength]

Also, greyice, can you confirm your role name?

[Wavelength]

Greyice has left the chat.

[Wavelength]

I get that him walking away is fine, but his answer means a lot less if it is not a very quick reply.

[Wavelength]

I get that him walking away is fine, but his answer means a lot less if it is not a very quick reply.

Do tell us what it means

The reason that I asked was because I knew that your original role name claim did not match everyone else's

And I wanted to see if you could quickly get it into the right format.

Taking as long as you did, the answer means nothing, so :shrug:

[Wavelength]

I get that him walking away is fine, but his answer means a lot less if it is not a very quick reply.

right but he also claimed his name earlier?

It was not the flavor name

I'm Weyoun Six,

member of the Temporal Alliance.

This is never a real town role name.

So I wanted him to confirm his role name quickly.

If he had answered right away, then I would have taken it as evidence that he was able to just check the pm, and copy it the right way vs having to first figure out why I was even asking the question.

But also, could be that he walked away.

So a quick reply would have been a meaningful reply. But it was not a quick reply.

Weyoun, Sixth Vorta Clone of the Temporal Alliance.

[Wavelength]

i do think it's weird you didn't read the sample role pm though and realize "oh this doesn't make me miller" but

This was in fact the reason why I asked if he had looked at it

[Wavelength]

Hebis wincon is a scum wincon.

It is not written to allow for a win alongside town or scum.

I also read the flip to mean that the black ops are the scum team

[Wavelength]

So uh, is Borg actually 3rd party or scum? A bit confused

Hebi was borg, and was a part of the Black Ops faction, but their ability implies that there are non-Black Ops borg in the game. So

Black Ops = scum
borg =/= black ops

Although, the assimilate ability Hebi had does imply at least on other borg member of black ops.

[Wavelength]

BTW Grey, why did you claim on demand from LLD?

Thinking about how Hebis ability to know all of our secret lines would work, the only thing that really makes sense to me is a list of

This flavor= This secret

Unless it is something silly like, whoops we all have the same thing.

So, that role looks like a way for scum to "punishment" us for claiming flavor for no reason, so the claims that have happened today, probably should not have included flavor.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. What 'ability to know all of our secret lines'?

This ability that Hebi had:

Critical Intelligence:
You know that the second to last ability in every Temporal Alliance
role pm is

Means that the Black Ops team was given the secret lines on our Role PMs

Strange New Worlds:
There may be aspects of your role you have not yet learned.

And when thinking about how Hebi would have been given the information, the way that made the most sense to me was as "This flavor = This secret line" as a way for the scum team to be able to punish us for flavor claiming.

[Wavelength]

I requested the borg queen and seven of nine, and got neither.

Hey guys I have a theory.

What theory?

His theory was that I am actually the borg queen and said that as a half truth. Instead of it being me processing the possibility of Hebi's ability existing in reference to how many borg I was already informed of existing in the game.

But he seemed to kind of drop the idea when he said maybe I am bad town?

[Wavelength]

I used the zora mask on night 4, when I used my second cross examination shot, so that I would know if I had been redirected. No one targeted me that night.

[Wavelength]

Oh. That is for the wrong game.

Please ignore.

[Wavelength]

I feel like I am just spinning my wheels at this point, because my reads were largely wrong last day phase, and I kind of just want to sheep LLD while I reset, but she is not pushing anywhere.

[Wavelength]

Are you saying that you think hebi had more information on our possible secret role aspects than we do?

....

Did you read Hebi's role pm?

[Wavelength]

Oh. Actually, maybe I am the one who is dumb here

[Wavelength]

I read Hebi's ability as "You know WHAT the second to last ability in every Temporal Alliance role pm is"

And so thought that it meant that she knew the secrets.

But that is apparently not what it says.

[Wavelength]

Aureal, did you think that Black was obviously town day 1?

[Wavelength]

This is largely where I am at after staring at the player list for a while. Not really sorted within tiers

Town
Lady Lambdadelta

Town Lean
KawaiiKame
xyzzy

Null
Kokichi Oma
PenguinPower
~gap~
Rogue

Lean scum
GreyICE
Aureal
Porkens


VOTE: aureal

[Wavelength]

I actually think that I might feel more strongly in my reads that GreyIce and Porkens looks like they are individually positioning around a sinking partner then my thought on Aureal.

Aureal is more of a looks scummy read, then a looks partnered with Hebi read.

[Wavelength]

But Aureal was the one with a wagon, so that was kind of my tie breaker when debating between the three

[Wavelength]

Actually

VOTE: porkens

[Wavelength]

Basically, Porken's big post 280, and its reads list, look like scum positioning around hebi's flip.

Every single one of his red colored reads is dependent on Hebi being scum, and how that person could be partnered with a scum Hebi.

Which is a bad way to scum hunt in general, but if you are hunting based on preflipping your top scum read, then it does not make any sense to be open to eliminating any of the potential partners before hebi, but his post ends with

"I could vote for any of the bottom 6 right now."

[Wavelength]

They put me at the bottom of their reads list yet voted you

Not really sorted within tiers

Not really sorted within tiers

[Wavelength]

As others have noted, xyzzy's hop onto hebichan's wagon slightly smacks of distancing. I agree that if hebichan is scum, xyzzy is partner-leaning

Rogue might be looking for a reason to townread hebi? (130). Also 137 gives me "no we aren't in a scum PT look we are chatting here" vibes.

Similarly don't like Frogs' vote on black and I don't see the relevance of the quoted posts.(235)

Wavelength joins the bad counterwagon on black

I don't see a town motivated reason why Aureal unvotes hebichan in 91. At that point, I don't have a strong townread on hebichan. Aureal doesn't express one either

All of these reasons to scum read people fall apart if Hebi is town, because they all boil down to be "looks partnered" or "are jumping off the righteous hebi wagon" or "joining the scum designated couterwagon to Hebi."

(I know that you said that Aureal's was regardless of Hebi's alignment, but I don't care. It does not change my opinion on it.)

These all look like they were written from the PoV of someone who knew Hebi's alignment, and wanting to make people look bad on the Hebi flip.

[Wavelength]

if you want a wagon may i suggest xyzzy?

I find it highly unlikely that xyzzy plays day 1 the way that they did if partnered with Hebi

[Wavelength]

He opened up the day in a way that left LLD with a "xyzzy is never scum with Hebi." I agreed with these posts, and I think Rogue(?) did too (not sure on that, and not taking the time to check)

In your mind is he scum profiterring off of hebi being town and a wagon or is he scum attaching himself to a wagon as part of a bus to ensure he's not left out?

I’ll ask a better question - is he town?

If Hebi's scum they are.

like to iterate, if Hebi's scum Xyzzy doesn't have the 3 posts they have this game. Simple as that. They enter and approach differently.

And I don't think that a scum partner who successfully managed to position themselves into a "very likely not partnered with my partner who is currently at e-1 and has claimed not town" read for multiple players proceeds to tear down that positioning by making this argument, instead of just hoping to ride out the town cred on their partner flip (while quietly hoping that the town on the wagon work their own way off)

So a non-town claim.

Vote: Hebi

I will not go into a long explanation of why this is always, always, always, always the correct move. A brief summary:

- The moderator has not confirmed the existence of a non-hostile, non-town faction. There's no evidence it exists. There's a known non-town faction - it's Mafia. Occam's Razor.
- Fferyllt likes fairly vanilla roles. For instance their design document for Tarot Mafia, despite having an incredibly complicated picking procedure, has mostly "modified vanilla" roles: viewtopic.php?p=12857475#p12857475
- It's a mini normal, 13 players doesn't give much room for a non-town, non-hostile faction.
-

It's day 1, we're guaranteed not to eliminate town by doing this

The last one should be the only one that matters.

eliminating hebichan here as policy doesn't give us useful info for day 2. if we later have reason to believe hebichan is lying scum, we can circle back around to that. if we eliminate town on day 1, that's obviously bad, but it gives us a wealth of information that eliminating a claimed survivor does not. the drawback of going into day 2 with less to work with is far greater than the "at least we didn't lose a town player" moral victory, especially because it doesn't stop us from getting closer to a scum win.

I think I would have to actively decided that xyzzy does not understand how to play scum to conclude that he makes this post, in this position, as scum.

[Wavelength]

Like 581 did not work to stop Hebi's elim, it was never going to work to stop Hebi's elim, and actually all it did was give a reason for people to point and say "Look over there! xyzzy tried to save scum Hebi"

And I feel like xyzzy partnered with Hebi realizes this.

So that leads me to conclude this was his actual process of trying to work through a survivor claim.

[Wavelength]

Yes I thought hebi was scum.

Thanks for letting me know?

[Wavelength]

also hey please remember y'all: I am a they/them pronoun haver. thanks!

My bad, sorry for the mistake

[Wavelength]

Wave: why do you have LLD topping your list as Town?

-
-

[Wavelength]

I am thinking of this game in terms of [Not Black Ops = Town] and [Black Ops = Scum]

If Hebi had never claimed third party, no one would be having third party / multiball talk. But she did, but then she flipped scum.

Once we have some actual evidence that we need to be hunting down some other malevolent actors other then the Black Ops, I can readjust how I am sorting, but realistically, everyone should be hunting for hebi partners at the point.

[Wavelength]

That all went completely without saying.

I am not sure that it necessarily was to the person who I was talking to, given earlier statements such as

Not a fan of LLD's going from "found an unknown faction" to 'faction is definitely scum' when hebi's flip did nothing to change the information we had gotten from her.

And then also asking me why I was town reading LLD this game

[Wavelength]

Yes, I don't disagree that catching out hebi was towny. But towny enough to just get classified as town straight up?

I think that the reasons to think that LLD is not a member of the Black Ops, so far are greater then the reasons to think anyone else is town in this game. So yeah, she gets to live in her own little tier above the rest.

How do you feel about Grey's shifting position on LLD?

I didn't like it.

[Wavelength]

to apparently figuring she was towny enough to claim upon demand to (still waiting for an answer to my question about that)

I thought about answering this when you first asked, but figured I would let GreyIce. But then he never did lol.

GreyICE full claim next post please and ty, including any night actions taken.

This post, how it was written plus it being LLD's first post start of day always means "I gained information over the night phase (likely an invest) that demands a claim, after which I will out my information and we can all decide if it means you are scum or not"

GreyIce, regardless of alignment, clearly read it the same way that I did, and responded to it as such.

[Wavelength]

Like I still really did not care for the way she tried to direct protectives to her, it felt like an assertion of authority rather than actually trying to convince people

That was self confidence in her abilities, and self awareness that she has a reputation.

People shoot at LLD night one even if she did not find scum day 1. She had every reason to think she just made a perfect night kill of herself, and she is the kind of person to believe that if she wants her faction to win (town or scum) she needs to stay in the game over most other players.

I did not bat an eye on LLD's protect request, although, to be fair, if she was scum who just dunked on Hebi, she almost certainly would have made the exact same request. But she also makes that request, in that position, as town.

[Wavelength]

The most interesting thing that I saw in my re-read was Porken's reads list in

280

, given the Hebi flip.

Spoiler: My thoughts on it

I actually think that I might feel more strongly in my reads that GreyIce and Porkens looks like they are individually positioning around a sinking partner then my thought on Aureal.

Aureal is more of a looks scummy read, then a looks partnered with Hebi read.

Actually

VOTE: porkens

Basically, Porken's big post 280, and its reads list, look like scum positioning around hebi's flip.

Every single one of his red colored reads is dependent on Hebi being scum, and how that person could be partnered with a scum Hebi.

Which is a bad way to scum hunt in general, but if you are hunting based on preflipping your top scum read, then it does not make any sense to be open to eliminating any of the potential partners before hebi, but his post ends with

"I could vote for any of the bottom 6 right now."

As others have noted, xyzzy's hop onto hebichan's wagon slightly smacks of distancing. I agree that if hebichan is scum, xyzzy is partner-leaning

Rogue might be looking for a reason to townread hebi? (130). Also 137 gives me "no we aren't in a scum PT look we are chatting here" vibes.

Similarly don't like Frogs' vote on black and I don't see the relevance of the quoted posts.(235)

Wavelength joins the bad counterwagon on black

I don't see a town motivated reason why Aureal unvotes hebichan in 91. At that point, I don't have a strong townread on hebichan. Aureal doesn't express one either

All of these reasons to scum read people fall apart if Hebi is town, because they all boil down to be "looks partnered" or "are jumping off the righteous hebi wagon" or "joining the scum designated couterwagon to Hebi."

(I know that you said that Aureal's was regardless of Hebi's alignment, but I don't care. It does not change my opinion on it.)

These all look like they were written from the PoV of someone who knew Hebi's alignment, and wanting to make people look bad on the Hebi flip.

[Wavelength]

Oh. Formatting

280

[Wavelength]

Seeing as you've explained what Grey was probably doing in claiming, does it not feel reasonable for him to be upset that she demanded a claim because she got a negative on a motion detector? An unaware miller in a closed setup who triggers a motion detector despite not having a night action sounds pretty bastard setup and this isn't one.

I can actually respond to this now, because the other game just ended.

LLD and I were in another game, that had a miller, and they died before this game started, and it was worded as such:

you will appear as mafia to any investigations and as visiting anyone who dies each night.

So no, I don't think that her being in the mindset that a miller might show up to a motion detector is too odd.

[Wavelength]

Also, why did you think Grey would need time to fake the title part of his role name if scum? Only the affiliation at the end would be different, the middle part is clearly just a descriptor of the character.

This part feels pretty self-explanatory.

Role PMs were sent in this format:

Reginald Barclay, Anxious Dreamer of the Temporal Alliance
Khan Noonian Singh, Wrathful Augment of the Temporal Alliance
Lt. Commander Data, Sentient Being of the Temporal Alliance

It is VERY consistent.

"Character name, "flavorful descriptor" "of the Temporal Alliance"

He originally claimed it like this.

"I'm Weyoun Six, member of the Temporal Alliance"

Which is clearly not the way that a real town role pm would have gone out, and my first gut reaction to reading it was that he made it up, and did not realize the format he needed to put the flavor name it into, because he was more focused on the abilities and making the conform to whatever led to LLD demanding him to claim.

So I asked him for his exact flavor name, to see if he could correct it.

If he is town (and sees my post immediately) he should be able to get it right in exactly as long as it takes to "open PMs, copy, paste, post." If he had responded to 767 as fast as he had responded to 764, it would have lessened my suspicions on him quite a bit.

If scum, he would first have to figure out why I am even asking him, and then make up an appropriate response. So I would expect a delay.

But a delay can also mean "walked away from computer." So a very quick response would be town indicative, a slow response does not mean a lot.

[Wavelength]

I could move my vote back to Aureal, and not be too conflicted by it.

I feel worse about them after their more recent string of posts actually.

[Wavelength]

I probably would've fallen for his claim but looks like you were the Mafia there and thus had a bit of a different perspective, eh?

I had also role copped him, and seen his entire role pm, so yeah, different perspective lol

[Wavelength]

this idea of a hidden miller who trips not just standard investigations but things like motion detector as well

I do not believe that there is a single player who thinks that this is a thing that exists in this game, and I do not know why you are even debating it tbh

LLD asking greyice to claim, turns out, happened before greyice claimed why they thought they might be a miller

[Wavelength]

this idea of a hidden miller who trips not just standard investigations but things like motion detector as well

I do not believe that there is a single player who thinks that this is a thing that exists in this game, and I do not know why you are even debating it tbh

....

Because LLD thought it was a thing that could exist. Which you agreed was reasonable.

LLD never claimed to think that this was true.

The timeline was:

a. Greyice claimed miller Day 1.

b. LLD says she targeted Greyice night 1, and got a "Did not move" night 1 result.

c. LLD thought that meant he lied about being a miller. This is what I commented on. At that moment, her belief that this is true makes sense to me.

d. Day 2 started with LLD asking GreyIce to claim.

e. GreyIce claimed that he thought the "things you don't know" line was him being a potential miller.

f. Everyone in the thread, including LLD, concluded that he was never a miller to begin with.

--

When asked if it was reasonable for her to think that a miller would trip a motion detector, I am not judging her decision/thoughts in B and C based on information that she did not gain until E.

[Wavelength]

Aureal, I both see how town!LLD would have landed on playing it exactly how she did

AND

Don't think that scum!LLD comes in demanding a full claim from a psuedo miller claim at the start of day 2, which inherently forces her to also commit to a claim at start of day 2

[Wavelength]

I think we should probably look to kill Rogue today, maybe Xyzzy, maybe Aureal.

And take CLOSE LOOKS at GreyICE and PP in coming days.

I am not understanding why xyzzy is a part of this same list, much less the top of this list.

Like, I see that Rogue, Aureal, GreyIce, and PP were all off the Hebi wagon on both vote counts, but xyzzy is on hebi in both.

And if you are just saying that you think that he is the scum on wagon, while someone else if off, what is differentiating xyzzy as being the scum on wagon vs porkens being the scum on wagon?

[Wavelength]

OK, good to know that nobody is supposed to try to figure out how much you can be trusted.

You spent a lot of time in the last few pages discussing whether LLD deserved to be in the "town" or the "lean town" tier. Like that was the question, directed at my reads list, that started off the discussion. Focusing on the minutia of strength of a town read does look like you are more focused on just being part of active discussions then trying to find scum.

You have not even been arguing that LLD is scum for doing it, so I am also not sure why you are so focused on it.

[Wavelength]

PP I would easily vote here.

So PP is your second strongest scum read?

Want to talk about that read? I don't see much on them from a quick search of your iso

[Wavelength]

@LLD

Post 933

[Wavelength]

No, I think that Porkens is the scum on those wagons

[Wavelength]

I also just think that xyzzy is town

[Wavelength]

if you want a wagon may i suggest xyzzy?

I find it highly unlikely that xyzzy plays day 1 the way that they did if partnered with Hebi

He opened up the day in a way that left LLD with a "xyzzy is never scum with Hebi." I agreed with these posts, and I think Rogue(?) did too (not sure on that, and not taking the time to check)

In your mind is he scum profiterring off of hebi being town and a wagon or is he scum attaching himself to a wagon as part of a bus to ensure he's not left out?

I’ll ask a better question - is he town?

If Hebi's scum they are.

like to iterate, if Hebi's scum Xyzzy doesn't have the 3 posts they have this game. Simple as that. They enter and approach differently.

And I don't think that a scum partner who successfully managed to position themselves into a "very likely not partnered with my partner who is currently at e-1 and has claimed not town" read for multiple players proceeds to tear down that positioning by making this argument, instead of just hoping to ride out the town cred on their partner flip (while quietly hoping that the town on the wagon work their own way off)

So a non-town claim.

Vote: Hebi

I will not go into a long explanation of why this is always, always, always, always the correct move. A brief summary:

- The moderator has not confirmed the existence of a non-hostile, non-town faction. There's no evidence it exists. There's a known non-town faction - it's Mafia. Occam's Razor.
- Fferyllt likes fairly vanilla roles. For instance their design document for Tarot Mafia, despite having an incredibly complicated picking procedure, has mostly "modified vanilla" roles: viewtopic.php?p=12857475#p12857475
- It's a mini normal, 13 players doesn't give much room for a non-town, non-hostile faction.
-

It's day 1, we're guaranteed not to eliminate town by doing this

The last one should be the only one that matters.

eliminating hebichan here as policy doesn't give us useful info for day 2. if we later have reason to believe hebichan is lying scum, we can circle back around to that. if we eliminate town on day 1, that's obviously bad, but it gives us a wealth of information that eliminating a claimed survivor does not. the drawback of going into day 2 with less to work with is far greater than the "at least we didn't lose a town player" moral victory, especially because it doesn't stop us from getting closer to a scum win.

I think I would have to actively decided that xyzzy does not understand how to play scum to conclude that he makes this post, in this position, as scum.

Like 581 did not work to stop Hebi's elim, it was never going to work to stop Hebi's elim, and actually all it did was give a reason for people to point and say "Look over there! xyzzy tried to save scum Hebi"

And I feel like xyzzy partnered with Hebi realizes this.

So that leads me to conclude this was his actual process of trying to work through a survivor claim.

[Wavelength]

Basically, Porken's big post 280, and its reads list, look like scum positioning around hebi's flip.

Every single one of his red colored reads is dependent on Hebi being scum, and how that person could be partnered with a scum Hebi.

Which is a bad way to scum hunt in general, but if you are hunting based on preflipping your top scum read, then it does not make any sense to be open to eliminating any of the potential partners before hebi, but his post ends with

"I could vote for any of the bottom 6 right now."

While porkens was simultaneously tying people to a scum!Hebi flip, while also toeing with the idea of leaving if another wagon, on one of 5 other players, popped up

[Wavelength]

yeah but do you think there's only one faction with 0 kills mechanic in it?

No.

I think that there is a member of the black ops who is { [Flavor name], leader of the black ops] - who is the only player whose role states that they choose the kills, but when they die, the other black ops inherit the ability to direct the kill.

[Wavelength]

I have seen a game where there was something similar once before, where only one member could direct the kill so long as they were alive.

And that is where my head went when seeing a scum faction with a member whose role does not state that it can kill, but does state that it can inherit an ability from another member.

[Wavelength]

who is the only player whose role states that they choose the kills,

Like.

Both choose who does the kill, and who the target is

[Wavelength]

Actually, strike that. I was curious if the game that I was thinking of was actually a ffery game, and when I looked back through her games, turns out she does not always put the night kill on scum role PMs.

None of the scum flips in this game included the fact that they even had a night kill

Subject: Mini 2221 Tarot uPick: The Deviant Moon Edition - Fin

Role PMs

Spoiler: Citizens For A Better Future

The Union Shop Steward, as played by Gamma Emerald

Welcome!

You are

The Union Shop Steward

Not just any Shop Steward, you're the youngest steward ever elected by your union local. You are fiercely protective of your constituents and realize their entire way of life, already threatened with the Pandemic-fueled factory closures, could disappear forever into a sea of restaurants, hotels and ticket booths. Lake Phantasia's movers and shakers are going forward with their theme park plans, unmoved by the fact that they will be replacing good paying family-supporting jobs with minimum wage hospitality and restaurant jobs. You're determined to oppose the theme park in any way you can for the sake of the Union and the workers who elected you to represent them. But, direct appeals and confrontations have gotten you nowhere, so you've changed your tack and are biding your time. In the meanwhile, you have adopted a

Tarot Enthusiast

online persona and created a locally viral instagram account in celebration of the future theme park: Lake Phantasia's

Tarot Card A Day

.

Your Cards:

Significator: The Hanged Man

- suspended ambitions; fears around security inhibit willingness to take risks and achieve success.

Card 2: Judgment

- Awakening from an ego-driven mindset; A new beginning is at hand, but requires accounting for past offenses; if transgressions are buried, they will be exposed. Consciously changing one's ways from bad past patterns

Card 3: The Fool

- uninhibited creation of a unique path through life. being receptive to wild, spontaneous notions and opportunities, pursuing one's visions without waiting to gain competence or expertise first.

Abilities:

• Strength in Numbers
  - Your partners are
  Bridgeburners
  and
  Marcistar
  . You share a private thread for your planning
  here
  . The thread will be open at all times.
  
• Card of the Day
  - Four times during the game before a game day starts, you can pick a Tarot card suit -- one of: Swords, Wands, Cups, Pentacles. You can't choose a suit more than once. I will give you a list of 7 Tarot Minor Arcana Cards belonging to your chosen suit. You pick one of the cards and I will post a Card of the Day interpretation of the card in the game thread. The only effect the Card of the Day has is that any players who chose a card of that suit for one of their three cards AND who have an X-Shot night ability and use it that night will have the shot refunded. You can use this ability on Day 1 if you wish.
  
• You're Not Going Anywhere
  - Twice during the game at night you can choose a player to roleblock. Any night action they may have that night will be prevented.
  
• I'm Unstoppable
  - Once during the game, if you make the night kill, you can choose for that kill to take place regardless of whether the player you target is protected or you are blocked.
  
• Democracy!
  - Your voice and your vote.

Win Condition:

You win when the Citizens For a Bright Future outnumber the Tarot Park Development Project or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

The Eccentric Occult Enthusiast, as played by Bridgeburners

Welcome!

You are

The Eccentric Occult Enthusiast

. Initially, you were thrilled with the idea of an Occult-themed major tourist attraction coming to Lake Phantasia, but you've had a growing unease about it over the last few months. You're troubled by the trivialization of Tarot, and have a nagging concern that nothing good can come with trifling with the Unseen in this way. Publicly you've come out in support of the project and even volunteered your vast knowledge of the cards. Privately, though, you want to stop the project before it's too late.

Your Cards:

Significator: Six of Wands

- The glorious results of education and self-development; anticipate a profound breakthrough or revelation that changes things forever.

Card 2: Four of Swords

- Burying oneself in thought; mental clarity through isolation; needing and taking a break.

Card 3: Eight of Pentacles

- Grinding skills, becoming expert at something one is passionate about, persistence and patience.

Abilities:

• Strength in Numbers
  - Your partners are
  Gamma Emerald
  and
  Marcistar
  . You share a private thread for your planning
  here
  . The thread will be open at all times.
  
• Sharing is Caring
  - You are an uninformed inventor. Four times during the game at night you can send another player a gift. You have four gifts you can distribute. None of the gifts will harm the recipient, but you don't know specifically what the gifts do, if anything. The four gifts are: a pen, a smartphone, a flask filled with a sparkly purple liquid, and a puppy.
  
• Democracy!
  - Your voice and your vote.

Win Condition:

You win when the Citizens For a Bright Future outnumber the Tarot Park Development Project or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

The inventions:

• a pen - opens a PT for the recipient that will be made public upon their death
  
• a smartphone - allows the player to send 3 tweets per game day for the mod to post in the game thread anonymously
  
• a flask filled with a sparkly purple liquid - a 1 shot unblockable ability
  
• a puppy - a 1 shot ascetic ability

The Nimby, as played by Marcistar

Welcome!

You are

The Nimby

. Your position as a

City Council Member

puts you right in the middle of Lake Phantasia's Tarot Theme Park plans, but as a citizen and resident you're appalled that the project will bring noise and light pollution to the wealthy lakefront country club, and let's not even talk about what it's going to do to traffic. Working behind the scenes, you're doing everything humanly possible to derail the Tarot Theme Park project.

Your Cards:

Significator: Judgment

- Awakening from an ego-driven mindset; A new beginning is at hand, but requires accounting for past offenses; if transgressions are buried, they will be exposed. Consciously changing one's ways from bad past patterns

Card 2: The High Priestess

- Unlocking intuitive knowledge; synthesizing unconscious and conscious thoughts; profound insight into complex situations and deep mysteries.

Card 3: The World

- Successful culmination of hard work and persistent effort; celebrating the fulfillment of ambitions; build small achievements into a tremendous victory

Abilities:

• Strength in Numbers
  - Your partners are
  Bridgeburners
  and
  Gamma Emerald
  . You share a private thread for your planning
  here
  . The thread will be open at all times.
  
• The Historian
  - Twice during the game at night you can target a player and learn who, if anyone, they have targeted at night, and which night they visited their target(s).
  
• Stealth Technology
  - Twice during the game at night you can choose not to be seen making your night action(s).
  
• Democracy!
  - Your voice and your vote.

Win Condition:

You win when the Citizens For a Bright Future outnumber the Tarot Park Development Project or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

[Wavelength]

Can you explain the kawaii townread?

I don't think that a borg scum partner comes out for Hebi the way that Kawaii did. Hebi's role near-confirms the existence of multiple non-Black Ops borg, and I feel like true claiming the borg neighborizor was an attempt to get a town borg to come to bat for her, not for a scum one to do so.

I also felt like their back and forth in day 1, Kawaii felt genuine, while Hebi did not

[Wavelength]

LLD, I have been trying so hard to actively work with you this day phase, but have been feeling like all of efforts were in vein

VOTE: rogue

[Wavelength]

Okay well Kawaii has claimed Borg right. And we are just assuming it's town borg?

I have every reason to believe that there are more town borg / prior-borg then there are scum borg / prior-borg in this game.

So I am treating being borg as NAI, yes.

[Wavelength]

You're probably going to get Rogue eliminated because everyone here is going to just go along with you with little question. And nobody, especially you, is going to think better of me for questioning the CHOO CHOO TRAIN JUST BECAUSE LLD SAYS.

To be clear, I am not on just because LLD said so. If LLD had landed on someone I think is town, I would have argued with her.

But I was not town reading rogue, they were already dipping bellow null.

And I also think that slipping away from a game is scum indicative for Mala (I am not sure if that is true for Notscience), but I feel like Mala has definitely slipped away from the game this day phase.

I also had a scum team theory that involved Rogue at one point, but was not super confident in it, but basically, I was open to a Rogue elim before LLD said Rogue, so if that is the person that LLD thinks is scum, I am down for it.

[Wavelength]

LLD, I have been trying so hard to actively work with you this day phase, but have been feeling like all of efforts were in vein

VOTE: rogue

sorry, I'd like to work with you as well. I'm bad at working with people moreover I've been checked out.

I'm checked back in. Let's chat.

I am not even really sure what I wanted you to comment on.

I just walked into this day phase planning on sitting back a bit to reset for being wrong on my scum reads day 1, but then when you said

I'll wake up in a bit, but the importaant part for me is seeing what people do and reading tht

And I was like, okay, that is fair. She needs other people to plant stakes in the ground, so sounds like I should go ahead and try to do my reset to give her stuff to work with.

And I did iso reads of everyone, and sorted everyone by "How partnered / not partnered with Hebi do they" and got zero comments and feed back from you. And given your response to my posts about xyzzy and porkens, is lowkey felt like you had not read any of my posts at all

[Wavelength]

wave has been playing very mechanically which was very reminiscent of my time with scum!wave in Anything uPick.

I don't think that I have been playing mechanically *at all* this game. I actually think my only comments on the mech implications of Hebi's flip came as direct responses to people saying "I am confused on X" and I trying to help clear up confusion.


But I also just checked back on a joint Iso on you and me, and my most recent two posts before your vote were that. Me responding to Aureal and then responding to Kokichi 792/797, so I kind of buy that you saw those two posts, and had that thought.

So :shrug:

[Wavelength]

sorry - are we saying kawaii is town because of the Borg claim alone?

I am treating Kawaii being borg as NAI

[Wavelength]

Penguin, you asked me why I thought that Hebi and xyzzy were unaligned, but my answer was at the same time you were getting into with with xyzzy.

So, not sure if you actually saw my response to you or not.

Spoiler:

if you want a wagon may i suggest xyzzy?

I find it highly unlikely that xyzzy plays day 1 the way that they did if partnered with Hebi

can you elaborate?

He opened up the day in a way that left LLD with a "xyzzy is never scum with Hebi." I agreed with these posts, and I think Rogue(?) did too (not sure on that, and not taking the time to check)

In your mind is he scum profiterring off of hebi being town and a wagon or is he scum attaching himself to a wagon as part of a bus to ensure he's not left out?

I’ll ask a better question - is he town?

If Hebi's scum they are.

like to iterate, if Hebi's scum Xyzzy doesn't have the 3 posts they have this game. Simple as that. They enter and approach differently.

And I don't think that a scum partner who successfully managed to position themselves into a "very likely not partnered with my partner who is currently at e-1 and has claimed not town" read for multiple players proceeds to tear down that positioning by making this argument, instead of just hoping to ride out the town cred on their partner flip (while quietly hoping that the town on the wagon work their own way off)

So a non-town claim.

Vote: Hebi

I will not go into a long explanation of why this is always, always, always, always the correct move. A brief summary:

- The moderator has not confirmed the existence of a non-hostile, non-town faction. There's no evidence it exists. There's a known non-town faction - it's Mafia. Occam's Razor.
- Fferyllt likes fairly vanilla roles. For instance their design document for Tarot Mafia, despite having an incredibly complicated picking procedure, has mostly "modified vanilla" roles: viewtopic.php?p=12857475#p12857475
- It's a mini normal, 13 players doesn't give much room for a non-town, non-hostile faction.
-

It's day 1, we're guaranteed not to eliminate town by doing this

The last one should be the only one that matters.

eliminating hebichan here as policy doesn't give us useful info for day 2. if we later have reason to believe hebichan is lying scum, we can circle back around to that. if we eliminate town on day 1, that's obviously bad, but it gives us a wealth of information that eliminating a claimed survivor does not. the drawback of going into day 2 with less to work with is far greater than the "at least we didn't lose a town player" moral victory, especially because it doesn't stop us from getting closer to a scum win.

I think I would have to actively decided that xyzzy does not understand how to play scum to conclude that he makes this post, in this position, as scum.

Like 581 did not work to stop Hebi's elim, it was never going to work to stop Hebi's elim, and actually all it did was give a reason for people to point and say "Look over there! xyzzy tried to save scum Hebi"

And I feel like xyzzy partnered with Hebi realizes this.

So that leads me to conclude this was his actual process of trying to work through a survivor claim.

[Wavelength]

everything since like 455 was mech based until I just got caught up which is why I said I'm less scum reading you now

I don't think that that is true.

But, I don't think that you are scum for thinking so, so I am just gonna drop it I think.

[Wavelength]

I saw it...I don't agree with it.

[Wavelength]

Yeah, they came with the site update lol

[Wavelength]

viewtopic.php?t=90442

I feel like either I misread your intent, or you misread mine.

either way, I went and found the thread for you that has a list of all the emojis we can use.

[Wavelength]

I feel like either I misread your intent, or you misread mine.

I think it was my "lol" in 1042.

It seems to have added a different tone to the post then intended. I add lol to the end of a lot of short messages reflexively.

Maybe drop the "lol" and sub in a couple exclamation mark on that message, and it will be closer to the tone that I meant for it?

Yeah, they came with the site update!!

[Wavelength]

We holstered because we couldn’t agree.

We thought maybe frogs would be from the reboots but we could t think of whoever else would be from them

IF you agreed on Frogs, but not on anyone else, why did you not send it to frogs?

[Wavelength]

I hate that the alternate wagon is xyzzy, and would much rather it be like dueling Rogue and Aureal wagons or something

[Wavelength]

My opinion is that

1) This role resembles Hebi's sufficiently that it could be a matching component on the second team.
2) The role resembles Hebi's sufficiently that this could be a straight up fake claim.
3) I don't believe in the idea that they holster a power like that. They wanted to send me a walkie to WHOPPER WHOPPER WHOPPER WHOPPER at me, so then why not do it? "LLD Might Die"? You're only sending me whopper x4 what's the downside? Or at least target someone. The holstering is incredibly suspicious.

And that's just role based stuff.

4) The claimed ability of "sending a communication device" could actually be a single part of a scum inventor, when hebi said that one of their partners was an inventor, and that is just the confirmable one.

I am also dubious that they holster this ability, especially with it being claimed as 2-shot, and it working for the day even if they fail to find a reboot character.

[Wavelength]

I hate that the alternate wagon is xyzzy, and would much rather it be like dueling Rogue and Aureal wagons or something

I do not intend to compromise onto xyzzy, and if people would like to tempt me into a compromise vote because of the imminent deadline, they should swap over to Aureal.

Otherwise I'm playing chicken that yall will compromise onto Rogue before deadline.

[Wavelength]

I hate that the alternate wagon is xyzzy, and would much rather it be like dueling Rogue and Aureal wagons or something

Yeah, I also hate that LLD's pet wagon is threatening to derail onto one of my top townreads even though she said she didn't need my help with it!

You say this while you are currently on a vanity wagon 11 hours before deadline when one of your top town reads is the leading wagon.

You do know that you have the power to at least try to save xyzzy by voting Rogue in this position right?

Or do you really intend to just stay off both wagons and let your top town read be eliminated, while sitting on the side lines throwing stones about this being LLD's fault?

[Wavelength]

Like, at this moment, the two leading wagons are:

-One of your top town read
-Someone that you say is a null read at best

And you are gonna sideline the choice, this close to dead line?

[Wavelength]

Oh I'm not going to stay off if it actually comes down to it but I was looking forward to petulantly seeing if it actually does need my help or not.

If you are town, you are playing with fire

countdown: (expired on 2023-04-05 21:00:00)[/b]

Xyzzy and Rogue are not currently tied. Xyzzy is The Leading Wagon.

Which means, if the people off wagon log on with the "we have to get someone before deadline" mindset, Xyzzy is the default choice, because he is currently closest to elimination.

Your vote would make them tied, meaning that the next person who is off wagon who decides "I need to help get us to an elim before deadline" they are faced with tied wagons, and actually have to make a choce between the two.

[Wavelength]

Like, you staying off wagon is leaving Xyzzy as the default elim for this day phase.

That has nothing to do with LLD, who you seem more focused on spatting with, then caring about the position your top town read is in.

[Wavelength]

I could possibly kil Aureal for the sidelining for sure

I would be down for a wagon on Aureal if you are.

You and me moving make Aureal's wagon equal to Rogue's current wagon, so we would stay on the same size wagon.

I think that kokichi would be more open to an aureal wagon then a rogue one, so we could potentially poach that vote. Kawaii might just follow us too if we both move.

And it would be interesting to see if Rogue is open to an Aureal wagon, when this was the stated reason to be on the Xyzzy wagon.

VOTE: xyzzy

Consolidation and survivalism yada yada

[Wavelength]

I am not willing to move from the Rogue wagon to the Aureal wagon if LLD is not coming with me.

Because that leaves them BOTH at 2 votes, and makes the Xyzzy wagon even more likely to go through, which I do not want.

[Wavelength]

This close to deadline, I do have to take into consideration likely hood to go over the finish line, and not just who I scum read more.

[Wavelength]

And stop misgendering poor xyzzy ffs

[Wavelength]

Wave giving a good argument to vote Rogue and promptly adding to the threats on me to make me look worse if I actually do. Gj man.

Why do you care more about how it would make you look to vote Rogue, then the argument I made about why you should be voting rogue if you are town here?

-If you are town, and truly do town read xyzzy as much as you say you town read them, then your vote should be there.
And
-Your vote not being there makes you look scummy.

I believe both things to be true, so I said both things.

[Wavelength]

That’s a great wagon you’ve got their LLD. Lots of real obvtown winners.

I am actually quite happy with the wagon comp

I am town reading both LLD and Kawaii, and I basically had to force Aureal onto the wagon so she does not really count towards the wagon comp.

[Wavelength]

I also have been getting the feeling that LLD is treating me like she thinks I am town, and she out and out said that she thinks that Kawaii is town, so I am not even sure why you would think that this argument would sway her tbh

[Wavelength]

Well I'm apparently scum if I don't vote you and scum if I do vote you,

Aureal is so focused on her thread position this game

VOTE: Aureal

I will be around if my vote is needed to move before deadline, but I believe in this the most.

[Wavelength]

Womp Womp

You're welcome

[Wavelength]

Aureal is at 4 votes, and is the leading wagon

[Wavelength]

Is this not what you wanted when you voted aureal? Lol

[Wavelength]

LLD has definitely been around.

So really, just need one of [GreyICE, PenguinPower, Kawaii, Xyzzy] to check in before dead line

[Wavelength]

i'll be here-ish for the next few hours - absent power being knocked out by a line of thunderstorms - but i would rather rogue than aureal if we aren't yeeting xyzzy.

I hate that the alternate wagon is xyzzy, and would much rather it be like dueling Rogue and Aureal wagons or something

You can make this a reality for me if you want Penguin

[Wavelength]

Yay!

I get everything I want!

[Wavelength]

[Wavelength]

VOTE: rogue

e-1

[Wavelength]

Basically, Porken's big post 280, and its reads list, look like scum positioning around hebi's flip.

Every single one of his red colored reads is dependent on Hebi being scum, and how that person could be partnered with a scum Hebi.

Which is a bad way to scum hunt in general, but if you are hunting based on preflipping your top scum read, then it does not make any sense to be open to eliminating any of the potential partners before hebi, but his post ends with

"I could vote for any of the bottom 6 right now."

mostly skipping the posts of dead players but this caught my eye

My scum case was read after I died!

[Wavelength]

That never happens