Newbie 2118 | Terrieresque! - Day 4

[JasonWazza]

Funny how everyone tells me why i'm doing things.

Actual scumhunters would ask, or read what i have actually said.

The scum i am voting, happens to be consistently lying and rewriting a narrative that doesn't exist, while consistently appealing to emotion rather then actually doing anything useful, and trying to write it off as anger, to not actually address any of the things i have actually directed at him.

[Deltabreedy]

Meh, I can't focus with this in the game, and I dare say it'll be more enjoyable to boot.

UNVOTE: Kowah
VOTE: Jason

[Deltabreedy]

Sooner we lim them, the sooner we all get to not be called useless and bad every 20 minutes. Sounds good to me tbh

[JasonWazza]

Thanks for literally proving my point.

[Deltabreedy]

Consider this a policy lim. At worst you're unhelpful town that is completely suffocating the game. At best, you're scum.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't particularly care either way at this point.

[JasonWazza]

I mean if you managed to actually lim me, that would be a scum wagon for sure, so if you think you can convince 4 people to do that, go for it.

[Deltabreedy]

I mean if you managed to actually lim me, that would be a scum wagon for sure

Cool, lets find out.

[fferyllt]

V1.7

A wired-haired Fox Terrier/Poodle mix.

Deltabreedy (2): JasonWazza, MafiaSSK
MafiaSSK (2): SeeEmpty, Mewtaph
JasonWazza (2): T3, Deltabreedy
Mewtaph (1): Kowahbunga

Not Voting (2):

bewolkt, Merlyn

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate

Deadline: April 6 , Noon US Eastern Time

countdown: (expired on 2023-04-06 09:00:00)

Mod Notes

• 

[Kowahbunga]

@Jason why are you assuming that T3 is town not scum

I can get behind this catch. Exact stuff I look for in every post D1.

VOTE: jason

[Kowahbunga]

Honestly I'd be up for a Jason lim to get them out of the game at this stage. Anyone else?

I don't like this reasoning for it. D1 always has people in their feels over stuff because it is the most frustrating day. Let's just stick to the fact that he essentially told us T3 is town.

[JasonWazza]

A) There is the collective word town being used, as in the whole game, being a lurker is bad town and bad scum, it's just being bad.
B) I didn't even refer to T3 directly as bad town, i referred to the lurker bs as being bad town and useless

[SeeEmpty]

After rereading the whole Jason vs Delta exchange:

Post 29:
- Jason calls keeping the vote on MafiaSSK as oppose to placing the vote on him as an attempt to stifle discussions, based on the reply by Delta telling him to not "misrepresent his votes". This is the part where I think he is stretching it a bit thin on the accusation. I was fine with this as a tactic by Jason to generate content and illicit further discussion, but after rereading the whole interaction again, it seems that he actually believes that this to be true (alongside with MafiaSSK, by the way).

Post 52:
- Continue on putting emphasis on if the vote of Delta is random or not, which is an opinion based discussion, and can be explained either way.
- Continue to call Delta's every post since then as an attempt to stop discussion, which I failed to see.

Post 81:
- The first time Jason moved away from the 1v1 and engaging with others, which I like. This is explained later as he feels that there is not enough content from the other players. I can understand his point, and I think this is a good thing to do. Unfortunately this does not happen more in the future.

Post 88:
- Jason acknowledging that while MafiaSSK is basically echoing his thoughts, he's town in Jason's mind. As I have stated that I'm suspicious of MafiaSSK's play, I'm not in agreement with Jason's point of view. Has MafiaSSK posted a lot of useful content that warrant a town read? If so, what is it? This was never addressed in detail.

Post 106:
- First post to focus on another slot. However, I see a drastically different level of tenacity here compare to the one on Delta, which he ultimately went back to his Delta vote.

Post 118:
I've never town read Delta. I just didn't find his stuff scummy thus far. bewolkt just thought that Delta came off better in the 1v1. Calling it "People who town read me are town-null people who Scum read me are null-scum" seems unfair. Delta provided his points on each of the slots. You never point out which of his points that you disagree on. Since you're calling it "the most utterly useless reads list", do you completely disagree to all his points? You mentioned that you're trying to engage with everyone but no one wants to participate. I for one didn't get the feel that you're actively engaging with me. You asked me one question, and that's about it. You never responded to my answer to your question.

Post 155:
- This post towards Delta, to me, just look like trying to illicit more outburst from Delta. What's the point?

While I like his aggressiveness onto Delta case, we don't see any of such aggressiveness on other slots that he finds scummy enough to vote on. I absolutely dislike the post of him saying that he is "fed up with this bad town". As a town that plays to win, if you think town is not doing a good job, why not actively engaging them that will create response with substance? Isn't questioning and finding out more the core method of scum hunting? Should we expect scum to proactively posting content for people to analyze on? This feels to me as if he's making excuse ahead of time for contributing less, something that a scum would prefer.

It is also shown that his later response are dead set on Delta, unless directly quoted, and many a time are just nasty responses that I see no reason other than just to trigger more emotional response from Delta. This is until I see post 269, where he called response from Delta as "page wasting". Perhaps that's his plan, triggering response from Delta on his dissatisfaction towards Jason's post, and generate "useless" content that he can use to further discredit Delta's person as a whole. This seems too obvious to me to the point where I doubted myself a little when Delta mentioned that a play like this doesn't quite make sense for an experienced scum, and I personally think that Jason is a very logical player.

Overall, I get the feeling that Jason is tunnelling towards Delta, disagreeing with almost every point he made, based on Jason's own opinion. At the same time he made a point that opinion is not alignment indicative, so if he's wrong, he's just wrong about his opinion, but it doesn't mean anything about his alignment. This looks to me like Jason is leaving himself with backdoor pre-emptively just in case Delta flips town. At the same time, he also mentioned that we would have no info to analyze on if Delta flips town, but he is okay with limming Delta today, discounting the usefulness of the role after the claim, and the explanation to why he decided to keep his vote on Delta feels like they come after I questioned him on the reasons, not before.

VOTE: JasonWazza

This is

E-1

[JasonWazza]

While I like his aggressiveness onto Delta case, we don't see any of such aggressiveness on other slots that he finds scummy enough to vote on. I absolutely dislike the post of him saying that he is "fed up with this bad town". As a town that plays to win, if you think town is not doing a good job, why not actively engaging them that will create response with substance? Isn't questioning and finding out more the core method of scum hunting? Should we expect scum to proactively posting content for people to analyze on? This feels to me as if he's making excuse ahead of time for contributing less, something that a scum would prefer.

Do you realize i have been doing that, and the response's i have gotten constantly are just nothing?

Like you read my ISO, and somehow don't see me questioning people, can you read?

It is also shown that his later response are dead set on Delta, unless directly quoted, and many a time are just nasty responses that I see no reason other than just to trigger more emotional response from Delta. This is until I see post 269, where he called response from Delta as "page wasting".

Perhaps that's his plan, triggering response from Delta on his dissatisfaction towards Jason's post, and generate "useless" content that he can use to further discredit Delta's person as a whole.

This seems too obvious to me to the point where I doubted myself a little when Delta mentioned that a play like this doesn't quite make sense for an experienced scum, and I personally think that Jason is a very logical player.

Yes dead set on delta, trying to get potential Delta town to actually do something that isn't just creating bullshit narratives, he has continued.

Also for the bold, are you serious, i tried to get delta to make content, he didn't and i am at fault?

Jesus i feel like i entered the twilight zone, i'm scum for trying to have delta make content and failing, that's some impressive stupidity.

Overall, I get the feeling that Jason is tunnelling towards Delta, disagreeing with almost every point he made, based on Jason's own opinion. At the same time he made a point that opinion is not alignment indicative, so if he's wrong, he's just wrong about his opinion, but it doesn't mean anything about his alignment. This looks to me like Jason is leaving himself with backdoor pre-emptively just in case Delta flips town. At the same time, he also mentioned that we would have no info to analyze on if Delta flips town, but he is okay with limming Delta today, discounting the usefulness of the role after the claim, and the explanation to why he decided to keep his vote on Delta feels like they come after I questioned him on the reasons, not before.

VOTE: JasonWazza

This is

E-1

And again to be clear, i tried to get more from the town, no one wanted to participate, so i just went and tunneled on my scum read, which is.... scum somehow?

I'm not leaving any backdoor if Delta flips town, if you have an issue then lim me if he flips town, not going to get you very far, but you can do that i guess.

Also just to be clear, what i said, is we get no info from DELTA if he flips town since his reads are useless, i didn't say we have no info if delta flips town, because we can analyze everything everyone else said.

I discount the usefulness of the role after the claim, because it's useless as a claimed role no matter what.

SeeEmpty, how can you ISO me and literally just come out of it with lies?

[Merlyn]

Well, shit.

UNVOTE: Deltabreedy

I have to go to bed, and I don't want a hammer before we get a chance to talk about this.

@Merlyn - You initial reads are everybody's null except Delta scum. Since then there are so much more content now, what is your updated read?

Delta- It actually makes me really uncomfortable that delta has flat out said he wants to lim Jason even if he's town. But honestly, reading his posts back in iso, he's been very consistent in being a straight talker and up-front with how he feels about players, so it's not out of character that he would want to get rid of someone he says is ruining the game for him. I can't in good conscience vote for him with a claim out. I might need to just admit that I was wrong and I suck at hunting scum so far.

Jason- I'm not feeling this wagon. Jason still reads town to me. Yes, he is very aggressive and can be insulting. To my knowledge neither are scumtells. I think he's letting his personal feelings about delta get in the way of scum hunting and tunnelling on delta. @Jason, is there anyone else you would focus on besides Delta, since it must be clear that's not the way the vote is going this day?

SeeEmpty- has emerged for me as a consistent scum hunter and great at asking the tough questions, very townish to me. His 337 post made me WIFOM about Jason for quite a while and I almost re-wrote this whole post. But in the end even if I'm wrong I just don't agree about Jason for the reasons above.

SSK- leaning town for me. Going back to their posts in iso, I see good examples of scum hunting, asking questions about inconsistencies.

T3- null read. In these last two pages, he's been giving me more town vibes with the scum hunting he's doing, but I need more posts to really get a read.

Mewtaph- Scummish. I don't like that they called out Bewolkt for not voting when they have never voted yourself. I don't like that they asked for a push on SSK instead of just making a push yourself. A fence-sitter.

Kowah- I don't like their sudden Jason vote. Most of their posts have been re: the argument about whether or not folks can effectively hunt scum on D1, but the ones that do have content: in 138 they call SSK scum and in 139 they call delta scum. Why did they drop SSK as the other prime suspect and suddenly go with Jason? Actually, reading back I realize they have a history of this. In 193 SSK points out that Kowah jumped on the delta train just as fast. I think they are hopping from bandwagon to bandwagon.

Bewolkt- ??? There's nothing to go on here, it's frustrating.

After my read through I see Kowah as the most likely wolf. VOTE: Kowahbunga

[Merlyn]

Jason as you once told me there are two scum to hunt. Is there anyone else you plan to focus on besides delta? Maybe tell us without calling all of us stupid and useless.

[JasonWazza]

Jason- I'm not feeling this wagon. Jason still reads town to me. Yes, he is very aggressive and can be insulting. To my knowledge neither are scumtells. I think he's letting his personal feelings about delta get in the way of scum hunting and tunnelling on delta. @Jason, is there anyone else you would focus on besides Delta, since it must be clear that's not the way the vote is going this day?

I'm going to be doing a reread with this new content in play now, unironically this is the most actual content we have had in ages, so i need to actually go and look, didn't know it took literally inviting votes on myself to get some fucking content going, but apparently that's what it took, so i'll go with that.

[JasonWazza]

My god this is infuriating. Either you're a bad, washed-up townie with the worst case of confirmation bias going, or you're scum who now has to double-down and force through a lim. My reckoning is that you're scum.

Doing a re-read, and just noticed this, for someone who is so offended and everything about me calling bad town, this man is so willing to say it before i did.

Wanted to post this before completing because i think it is very important that people realize that he is probably not angry and has just been posturing this way in my opinion (could be wrong, but that is my gut's feelings on the matter).

[SeeEmpty]

Do you realize i have been doing that, and the response's i have gotten constantly are just nothing?

Like you read my ISO, and somehow don't see me questioning people, can you read?

In post 88, there is a question to 4 of us. All of us replied, but only Merlyn's response was being followed up on post 106, 212 and 214 after your vote on her.

Two posts: 145 and 155, were your interactions with Kowah, you dropped your follow up with him, and stated that "opinion is not alignment indicative" (158) and "I ISO'ed his town game" (170).

Yes dead set on delta, trying to get potential Delta town to actually do something that isn't just creating bullshit narratives, he has continued.

Also for the bold, are you serious, i tried to get delta to make content, he didn't and i am at fault?

Jesus i feel like i entered the twilight zone, i'm scum for trying to have delta make content and failing, that's some impressive stupidity.

What content do you expect to get if all you did was "Nah you're wrong my point stands"? I'm sure people will agree that while initially your pressure on Delta was good, it has since degraded to petty argument to nowhere. You constantly talk about how arguing with Delta is useless, but yet continue to do so.

And again to be clear, i tried to get more from the town, no one wanted to participate, so i just went and tunneled on my scum read, which is.... scum somehow?

As I am impressively stupid, I'd need your help to point to me how you engaged with the town other than the few things I posted above.

Also just to be clear, what i said, is we get no info from DELTA if he flips town since his reads are useless, i didn't say we have no info if delta flips town, because we can analyze everything everyone else said.

I'll leave these here. Other can decide on what they think about this.

What happens if Delta flips town?

We legitmately don't get anything useful, because no one has really commented on much, sure we get the NK, but you could probably NK half the game and no real info would come out, too many easy free shots that give no information.

EBWOP: I agree, i just think bad town having a fit might be just as likely

I mean i don't think we gain a huge amount of information no matter who we flip, Delta is the flip that comes with the least downsides, and the most actual usable content.

As for flipping me, when i flip town, which will very likely happen regardless of anything we do today, you know my reads come from 100% town, and can analyze my reads with that in mind, ontop of all that extra content.

That said, if your liming for information, you don't lim a major asset, you lim one of the less useful players.

On a side note, you have a habit of calling anything that you do not agree with "lies". What about "opinions"?

[Deltabreedy]

RE: #342 Yeah, I apologised for that a while back, and what I said was wrong.

It also came after 2 pages of you literally lying over and over again about my intentions and what I had done - if it wasn't a game you would accurately describe it as gaslighting.

[JasonWazza]

Before i post anything major.

@Delta: I'll admit, was a bit more of a dick then i intended at the time, that's my bad, re-reading i can see what you were saying about that.

[Deltabreedy]

Jesus Christ was that a bit of humility?

Have you intentionally been a dick all game because it kind of feels like you've gone out of your way to do it.

When I play Mafia as either alignment I'm typically so much calmer and I play significantly better but from page two you've gotten under my skin to the point where the only reason I'm playing the game now is out of loyalty to the townsfolk in the game to see this through. Almost every post I have made has been made with a descending sheen of red mist which really screws with my actual gameplay and it really sucks.

Admitting that it's been your intent to be a dick is vindication but it doesn't make me feel any better about you as a player. I simply can't focus and do my job with you in the game - that's on you.

[JasonWazza]

Reads:

Delta; we both got into each other way too much, dumb of me, i took too much of what he said and let it fuel my annoyance when i should have let it slide more, up to around #150 he seems rather scummy, but there are still town posts here and there (#123, #131, #133) i stopped actually reading a lot of what he was saying and let myself go stupid, that's my bad, later posts tend to feel more and more town like, and while #236 onwards for our confronting each other, that was me being already fedup, which i should have stopped.

Mild Town Read from his posts.

SSK; Felt this the whole time, but this is town, consistently has the town process going, consistently asking the right questions, consistent townieness, will note something more in kowahs area though.

Bewolkt; Not a lot of content, but the content that is there does feel Null-town, should start using your vote though.

Merlyn; I apologize for what was said towards you, re-reading you are scumhunting, my suggestion though, scumhunt at multiple people, while we have a lot of time, focusing too hard on one person is bad.

Mild Town read.

Kowah: Feels town to me. though that said, the Kowah-SSK stuff does feel a bit weird, feels a bit like a minor bus might be happening, if either were to flip scum, i would think the other is scum, but they both still read as town individually to me.

Mewtaph: not a lot of content, content that is there goes both ways in my mind, bit of scum leaning stuff (#87 doesn't feel townie to say) but the rest feels more town, Null read.

T3: T3 feels weird, very lurk heavy, and actually reading all his posts with full context feels really really scummy, Delta at the time had only actually defended himself, not done any real scumhunting, and yet.

I think Delta is town and Jason is scum. Scum want to win arguments, town want to find scum. I liked to way that Delta backed down in MafiaSSK. Jason is mischaracterizing Delta’s points and latching on to semantics. It doesn’t seem like Jason is truly trying to understand Delta’s mindset. Rather, Jason is attacking Delta because Delta doesn’t fully conform to the way that he believes town plays.

When called out on this one by this post of mine

Oh so you can clearly point out where Delta has been finding Mafia and not just tunneling in a little fit?

Because reminder, even if you think i am mafia, you got another one to find my friends.

then eventually responds with the following

While I don't think that Delta has been doing a lot of active scumhunting, his progression on MafiaSSK seemed natural.

which would be counter to his actual listed reason.

Eventually he votes me, and then posts this

Personally, I'm eyeing the {Jason, Mafia, Kowah} trio. There is something in their interaction that doesn't feel town to me. In the early game, Mafia's interaction with Jason feels off. Scum trying to buddy up with someone? Jason's post 178 where he jumped in and attempt to justify Kowah's vote also doesn't look right to me, and then there is post 194, kind of helping out Kowah for an explanation. Why not let Kowah address to the matter himself?

I really really liked this post and I was thinking a similar thing but I was having trouble properly articulating it.

This is bad, the wagon on me is basically me being willing to defend my town reads (i have town read SSK and Kowah since relatively early consistently) makes me scum, scum doesn't need to defend town reads, hell if you want to potentially Mislim a townread then mafia will let that happen (unless you think me and Kowah are partner's, which i'll just inform you, i'm not the type to defend a partner that can easily do it themselves, too much free info, i'm more the type to bus the hell out of a partner unless we are down to lim wrong and lose territory.)

T3 is now my top Scum read.

UNVOTE: DeltaBreedy
VOTE: T3

SeeEmpty: Also feels fairly scummy, already replied to the case on me which feels opportunistic, (i don't think their reply is good at all i honestly think my posts speak for themselves of the ones he quoted, and don't think there is anything to respond to.)
Seems to be really focused on SSK being scared and asking for votes to be taken off, which SSK never did, SSK only voted delta, and then proceeds to then focus on Kowah constantly, with no vote change and mostly with stally feeling questions on opinion (i don't think you need to ask for someones opinion to be able to read their opinion, it was clear and natural already, the push on Kowah is bad)
Also asked me what info we get from a lim, i didn't say no content, but then proceeds to act like i said absolutely no content will come from the Delta lim (which is just a straight lie.)

SeeEmpty is now my second scum read.

P-Edit: I mean i'm generally a dick all the time (don't like pretending to preserve people's feelings), i was definitely worse then i should have been.

[Mewtaph]

On the first read, I didn't like the post where Delta voted on Jason. However reading the thread further, the majority of the content so far has been shared between Delta and Jason. I'm reading Delta's posts as more likely to come from frustrated town than scum fuelling an early 1v1 confrontation.

But why? Why is that your way of ending RVS? To provoke people to be aggressive towards you?

I don't like this post. It comes off as questioning, but in a way that is slanted to maintain a scum read on Delta. I think SSK has approached their early votes in a way where they "have" to have a scum read: which scum has to have in mind while town doesn't. Out of everyone, they are my strongest lead so far.

VOTE: MafiaSSK

E-2

man this is so band-wagony, not necessarily scummy, but certainly has that smell, especially for an E-2. and yeah, it is probably slanted because I want to believe that my biases are right. I don't think confirmation bias is an inherently scummy action though? I also just like to try and force as much of a scum read as soon as I can? Especially when we're in that phase of freshly out of RVS, it's nice to try and have.

I should give MafiaSSK some credit here, looking back I admit it's plausible that this comes from town.

*snip* But right now I have the feeling that within the group of bolder players - Jason, Delta, Mafia, Kowah - there's probably no more than 1 wolf. So right now my eyes are in the rest of the group

I am interested to hear exactly who you think is the scummiest outside of this group.

UNVOTE: MafiaSSK
VOTE: bewolkt

[fferyllt]

allez