TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[Cerberus v666]

Votecount 1.8

wgeurts (2) - Porkens, HighPrincessErinys
HighPrincessErinys (2) - wgeurts, Fate
Porkens (2) - Petapan, Cat Scratch Fever
Cerberus v666 (2) - Adorable, Jingle
Petapan (1) - Radical Rat

Not voting (1) - Cerberus v666

(expired on 2023-04-26 11:46:00) remain until day end

Cerberus is on V/LA through Monday.

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Start of D3 of Coachella! I haven't read, just checked the VC to see if there were any pressing wagons I should weigh in on - doesn't seem like much is happening. HPE and wgeurts continue to crossvote, porkens and fate do whatever the fuck it is they do, peta and csf surely have some sort of justification for voting porkens, adorable has effectively omgus'd me, I assume, for calling one post of theirs more scum than town, Jingle is probably attempting to put pressure on me to get more content when I get back or something, RR is also idk, and I continue to not vote. Cool.

I can be available to respond for the next 2 hours while I sit in my car and use the AC to attempt to allow for resting. I'll likely fully catch up to the game when I get back hoke, but if there are things you'd like me to respond to, feel free to direct me to them.

What do you have for me?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do you have for me?

Can you read 617 and let me know what you think?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It's mostly because of the early wgeurts defense still. Since then you've looked plausibly town, but so far that's the only moment in this game I can point to as someone actively doing something scummy, whereas everyone else in my lim pool just hasn't been doing Townie things.

As for my team, honestly we haven't been discussing as thoroughly or frequently as we probably should be, but early on Klick said you were pinging him as well, and then Bella's recently said you look Town to her.

Did you see 134? This feels like a fairly underdeveloped read for this stage of the game

[Cerberus v666]

What do you have for me?

Can you read 617 and let me know what you think?

Interesting. It's definitely clear that, based on the sample you provided at least, that Porkens is acting more in line with their scum meta than their town one. I'd need to look more closely at the town games to see if there's other causes for engagement though - for example, in one Porkens mentions nobility, which I assume I'd related to some game mechanic - just something to consider as far as possible other causes of engagement are concerned.

Since you did the research here - would you say Porkens appears disengaged as scum, or especially engaged as town? I'm phrasing it that way, rather than any verbiage implying that it being harder to fake reads than give genuine ones, because Porkens has been around long enough that I do not expect there to actually be a challenge for scum!porkens in giving some content to the game if they chose to do so. Basically, is Porkens baseline meh, and scum doesn't drive them to do better, but town does, or vice-versa?

[Jingle]

Could you share teammates notes cerb?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Since you did the research here - would you say Porkens appears disengaged as scum, or especially engaged as town? I'm phrasing it that way, rather than any verbiage implying that it being harder to fake reads than give genuine ones, because Porkens has been around long enough that I do not expect there to actually be a challenge for scum!porkens in giving some content to the game if they chose to do so. Basically, is Porkens baseline meh, and scum doesn't drive them to do better, but town does, or vice-versa?

He appears more disengaged as scum. And when scum, it feels like he posts reads because he feels compelled to

I wouldn't say he is "especially engaged" when town - like he is not going to be a shining beacon of towniness as town & he does seem to get mislimmed in a game here and there

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he feels relatively more engaged when town than scum

[Cerberus v666]

Also,for the record, I generally find meta tells to be dumb. :p I'm probably biased, because I very deliberately adhere to a certain meta and playstyle that is equally artificial as both town and scum, because I know others place weight on it...but I do tend to believe that anyone reasonable competent and emotionally unattached from the game can project whatever sort of meta they want to.

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.
Jingle: my team had one member get prodded because they didn't post within 24 hours of game start, and nobody has read anyone else's games really, just replied to questions and comments people have made - with me being the one doing most of the replying.

So, basically, my team is currently not helping at all, though Drixx did promise to read while I was V/LA and give me his thoughts at the end so I wouldn't wander back in completely blind.

[Radical Rat]

It's mostly because of the early wgeurts defense still. Since then you've looked plausibly town, but so far that's the only moment in this game I can point to as someone actively doing something scummy, whereas everyone else in my lim pool just hasn't been doing Townie things.

As for my team, honestly we haven't been discussing as thoroughly or frequently as we probably should be, but early on Klick said you were pinging him as well, and then Bella's recently said you look Town to her.

Did you see 134? This feels like a fairly underdeveloped read for this stage of the game

It is very underdeveloped, and that's why I haven't really been pushing super hard. I don't often do well without flips to help me read things.

And yeah, I saw 134. It definitely does not read that way to me, but I didn't see much point in going "nuh-uh" back and forth

[HighPrincessErinys]

Well, the Fabled Wgeurts Readwall will likely get the discussion train rolling again, but in the meantime you could always try probing others yourself. Don't think CSF or RR have really posted anything like read lists yet? Would like to see that personally.

What did you think of my porkens case?

This one usually doesn't take the time to read into meta cases, because it doesn't super care for meta outside of what it knows/has experienced/etc. That being said it's certainly an eyebrow raiser to a degree if this is closer to his average scum game.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.

Yes i suppose that's a fair statement

And I agree, it is a generic scumtell. Maybe i shouldn't have phrased it as a meta read, since a lot of people don't care for it, which is kind of frustrating. But generic scumtells don't apply universally, and the fact that there is some past evidence to support this generic scumtell applying specifically to Porkens makes it more valuable than just applying a generic scumtell willy nilly

[Jingle]

It's mostly because of the early wgeurts defense still. Since then you've looked plausibly town, but so far that's the only moment in this game I can point to as someone actively doing something scummy, whereas everyone else in my lim pool just hasn't been doing Townie things.

As for my team, honestly we haven't been discussing as thoroughly or frequently as we probably should be, but early on Klick said you were pinging him as well, and then Bella's recently said you look Town to her.

Did you catch my thoughts wrt CSF's push on cerb being probtown?

[Cerberus v666]

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.

Yes i suppose that's a fair statement

And I agree, it is a generic scumtell. Maybe i shouldn't have phrased it as a meta read, since a lot of people don't care for it, which is kind of frustrating. But generic scumtells don't apply universally, and the fact that there is some past evidence to support this generic scumtell applying specifically to Porkens makes it more valuable than just applying a generic scumtell willy nilly

*nods* Got it. In the absence of this meta tell, would you still be voting Porkens?

[Jingle]

@cerbs, could you skim 484 through my response in 537? I know it's a bit of reading, but even impressions on a quick read would be nice.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Unrelated to that, but back to the point - the meta tell you're pointing out here is essentially just what is universally viewed as scummy behavior - not anything unique to Porkens. Which probably answers my question above, actually - you just think Porkens is probably bad at playing scum period. Is that an accurate statement?

Pedit: Got it. Question about the accuracy of my statement still stands.

Yes i suppose that's a fair statement

And I agree, it is a generic scumtell. Maybe i shouldn't have phrased it as a meta read, since a lot of people don't care for it, which is kind of frustrating. But generic scumtells don't apply universally, and the fact that there is some past evidence to support this generic scumtell applying specifically to Porkens makes it more valuable than just applying a generic scumtell willy nilly

*nods* Got it. In the absence of this meta tell, would you still be voting Porkens?

no, because my initial impression of him without meta was low effort/trolling town, which I don't think he actually is!

[Jingle]

I really should get around to checking if that sample is representative, but I'm being lazy atm.

[petapan]

I can kind of see this, but the self acknowledgment of how poorly made the original case was to the point of reworking it unprompted and the immediate handwaving of peta being convinced by it making sense still strikes me as dissonant.

That would be a point against peta's favor though, right?

Spoiler:

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

I'm not sure whether he likes the content in the wall or simply thinks it was written by town. Probably the former given the second sentence

I disagree with the reasoning there... I think town moves their vote all the time to avoid vanity wagoning. Not sure if it moves the needle on my read though

Though come to think of it, weren't there 3 votes on the Fate wagon at the time? Why did HPE think the wagon wasn't viable?

my first impression was that it was making decent points against HPE but there's an acknowledgement that a case can make decent points and still be wrong and HPE's defense made me consider that it is, in fact, just wrong

[petapan]

i think regardless of the meta tell, the issue i'd raise with porkens is that this is team mafia and even if he's not into the game he has 3 teammates who should be able to help him, and yet, nary a peep? imaginality i'd expect might not have time for juggling multiple games, but biancopspino i'd expect to have some input, i don't know dragoneater70, but he seems high energy, do we really believe no one from his team is thinking about or reading the game at all?

[petapan]

kind of a hard game if porkens is scum though because if so he has abandoned the game and his teammate is left for dead which means we have to spend the rest of the game hunting a serial killer

[petapan]

*teammate has left him for dead

[Cerberus v666]

@cerbs, could you skim 484 through my response in 537? I know it's a bit of reading, but even impressions on a quick read would be nice.

Directs me to a wgeurts wall case and tell me to skim and give impressions.

....

Sure? Lol. Specifically about wgeurts, HPE, game as a whole as relates to that and what followed, or what?

Pedit - CSF:Understood. So that particularly brand of scummy behavior is sort of NAI to you, without corroborating evidence. Alright. Thanks for giving me some insight into your process. The Porkens slot is not one that I don't want lim'd; there's actually only 1.5 of those, and it should be evident who those are. With that said, barring an outright scumslip you should not expect a vote from me unless we're down the last 24 hours of D1 and still haven't limmed someone - but your points are noted, and barring any improvements I have no objections to the loss of that slot today, other than the sorta weak associations it has - but that is kinda the price paid for going after that particular sort of behavior.

[Jingle]

I mean... that the wall exists is probably as deep as you have to go into the wall. There's a summary of conclusions not long after.

[Porkens]

Cringy but I haven’t had time to catch up.

I suggest you folx look for the people who are posting what looks like content but is really just avoiding wagons at all costs. I usually find scum there. I’ll do a proper catchup asasp

[Porkens]

Like don’t worry about anyone who’s throwing down, just townlock those people and get someone below that cluster

[Cerberus v666]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

This is where I am on the homework Jingle. And without actually clicking on any of the links, I thin just the case is about as solid as you can get on D1, EXCEPT for the part where wgeurts says the moonlogic of their reads is scum indicative. I tend to think its generally only town that are that oblivious. We'll see how I feel after your response to the case!

[Jingle]

Spoiler:

This one believes it has an understanding of how Porkens and Fate play now, and that's "silly". Neither seems to be a very high-content poster or much of ones to elaborate on why they do the things they do, but this one was still figuring that out. Fate was ESPECIALLY doing nothing, so it threw a vote onto them that went nowhere of use as they didn't really stir from it. It went back to you as it realized that Fate and Porkens just Play Like That and that trying to strongly scumread them for it is just... eh. Which is why this one asks: Do you often try to elim people based on their playstyle? Because your choices of vote on me/Porkens/Fate really gives the impression you do, unless you don't? Because if you don't then it's low-hanging fruit to try and get the low-contents who are always low-content.

fate is very much doing things and imo it's uncharitable to describe him as not - you might not like it or find it hard to read into but he's said stuff (towny stuff imo)

i think you shouldn't make assumptions about people play just based on the game you're in - porkens can often be low-effort, but he's more than capable of producing substance as town (note: his early posts in that game had him using chatGPT as a gimmick, he drops it at iso #13 so skip there), and the fact that he hasn't done so here and seemingly hasn't read the game despite having multiple teammates who could help him, is legitimately scummy


i also think if you're going to chalk things up to a clash of playstyles, why can't you assume it would be town vs town and they're misreading you due to not understanding how you play? not every push

has

to have malicious intent. i think wgeurts legitimately believes their whole iso-dive case trying to bury you, the way they talk about it feels like genuine belief over

so here's the deal

Cat Scratch Fever is a townie. This is a meta read, and meta reads tend to be annoying if you don't know the person, but it is what it is. she's much moe low-effort/low investment as scum

wgeurts is town because there's legitimate conviction in their highprincesserinys push, annoyance at porkens doing nothing, even starting to get irritated with me for not doing anything with my vote. they're someone who is very clearly trying to solve the game.

Fate is town because i don't think he fakes derping on the setup like that as scum and cuz i think he believes thstuff he's pushing on

Adorable also probably town for earnestness but i have a weak spot for players who sound earnest. there's a little more uncertainty here because she's been playing a bit reserved but i think her recent posts come across as fairly plausible explanations for her reads

radical rat mostly looks the part of a townie with how they've been going about things, their vote on me is silly but i don't think it's scum-motivated

cerb idfk he hasn't done anything but is kind of yolo town. him accusing hpe of beetlejuicing felt a lil opportunistic maybe but it might be one of those cases where i'd expect a player to try to project towniness a little more as scum. i'm content to give him a pass for today and let him cook i guess

i want to ponder hpe here but my gut is kind of telling me they're town still and jingle's defense of it just looks like it's coming from an informed to my eyes

jingle i just think is kind of scum because his case on me stinks, his perspective has been frozen in amber since page 4, it doesn't feel like he's truly attempting to evaluate or analyze anything people say, he just has a perspective he wants to push which is me/wgeurts being scum, regardless of how much sense it makes

porkens is prolly just scum cuz he's frozen and not playing the game

open chatgpt: viewtopic.php?t=90462 (again he's gimmicking for 13 posts or so, keep scrolling down and you'll see where he stops using chatgpt to write responses)
weird dreams mafia: viewtopic.php?t=90611 (it's a replace in, but, like, that game had a similarish number of posts to where this one is at now)

like he can be lazy and low effort at times but all available evidence from what i've seen is that as town he is capable of actually trying but as scum he barely cares

Got around to double checking some of his meta. He's capable of doing more as both alignments than he has shown here, but he does strike me as someone who needs more time to fake analysis / reads as scum:

Scum game 1

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini Theme 2155: SIN: This Impurity must be Cleansed!

I'm getting to this I swear to god

Is there a reason why you've yet to place a vote on anyone?

Yeah - I don't have a clue. I'll put something together tomorrow

As in I don't have any reads because I haven't even skimmed everything yet.

Scum game 2

Spoiler:

Subject: Micro 1061: If Trees Could Scream [Game Over]

PORKENS CAN YOU POST A LIST OF YOUR READS

VOTE: porkens

Fine gosh now I’ll actually have to read the ttread

Scum game 3

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

The major thing I was basing Porkens off of was oh gamma is voting there and vice versa so probably town right
then I remembered gamma bussed everyone on his scumteam in my game and that porkens iso is still pretty awful

so maybe that's just the third and this game is really easy and we can all go home and drink wine

VOTE: porkens

no no stop

i promise I will start actually playing this game tomorrow.

please don't lynch me in the next 24 hours. I will read and post actual things

***

As scum, there's a general pattern of saying "I haven't been reading the game seriously yet" as an excuse for not having more serious thoughts or for having underdeveloped reads early in the game.

***

I don't doubt that he's busy when he wrote these posts, but playing scum requires more time to think about the game & that seems to be true for Porkens.

The same kind of posting is present this game too:

Spoiler:

Jeeze Louise of course just gut I haven’t read the game

The game was only on page 7 at this point lol - how long does it take to read the game?

Cause I gut your town and I haven’t read enough to c

I’m gunna read soon

“Tedious”? Dang.

Can you for once actually comment on the game, actually give thoughts on what's happening, instead of being obnoxious?

Soon. How am I being obnoxious?

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

I’ll do it later

I didn't want to include this in the spoiler, because I think it's a good example of what I'm trying to express here. This interaction seemed like a bad dodge when asked a basic question of "who do you like / dislike" - that's the kind of question that really should not take that much time or consideration to answer.

---

He doesn't do this as town because all he has to do is post his genuine thoughts. It's hard to quote the absence of something, but here are some town games I looked at:

• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=53&t=89907&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90036&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=23&t=90462&user_select%5B%5D=9469 - he does say he was going to post a readslist later in this post, but before that he already had more game-related content. More importantly, he's not using this as an excuse for not having more serious content. In fact, he even says that "posts were a lightning rod that generated the majority of content in this game so far" earlier.
  
• viewtopic.php?p=13565215&f=51&t=90144&u ... #p13565215
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=3&t=90611&user_select%5B%5D=9469

---

As a bonus, Porkens' vote in 163 also looks worse if HPE and wgeurts are indeed both town, which is kinda where I'm at.

VOTE: Porkens

So about half of the reason I didn't want to weigh in on this is that these two cases are like... the same case. CSF put more effort in and it's an overall sexier case, but the fact that no one has made this connection is just weird af to me.

Also I haven't wanted to actually metadive porken's activity to check for reasons he might be more busy than normal, counterexamples to preclude cherry picking, teammates and their likely impact, etc. But that's cause that's like the most tedious part of mafia, even moreso than exhaustive buddy analysis.