BooneyToonz XVI: Boons Ahoy! - [END]

[Ranger]

Celebrating Mother's Day, so will be here tomorrow.

[Ranger]

Celebrating Mother's Day, so will be here tomorrow.

Nevermind, had unexpected rl delays; should be fine tomorrow, barring medical emergencies.

Apologies for the delay. When I catch up, it'll be quick.

[Ranger]

5. Ranger - Could actually be 2 or 3 tbh. Depends on how busy she is.

I'll be considerably less busy going forward, although I can't completely catch up tonight. Can do about half I hope.


{Enchant}
{Klick}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{WhemeStar}
{Firebringer}
{Students of Prudence}

P1.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Enchant}
{Klick}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{zoro}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{WhemeStar, Frogs}
{Firebringer, Doctor Drew}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Students of Prudence}

P2.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Enchant}
{Klick}
{TemporalLich}
{zoro}
{NorwegianboyEE, WhemeStar, Frogs}
{Firebringer}
{Doctor Drew}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Students of Prudence}

P4.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{TemporalLich}
{Enchant}
{Klick}
{zoro}
{Firebringer}
{NorwegianboyEE, WhemeStar, Frogs}
{Doctor Drew}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Students of Prudence}

P5.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{TemporalLich}
{Enchant}
{zoro}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{NorwegianboyEE, WhemeStar, Frogs}
{Doctor Drew}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Students of Prudence}

P7

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{TemporalLich}
{Enchant}
{zoro}
{Klick}
{Firebringer, WhemeStar}
{NorwegianboyEE, Frogs}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P8.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{TemporalLich}
{Enchant}
{WhemeStar}
{zoro}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{NorwegianboyEE, Frogs}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P9.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{TemporalLich}
{WhemeStar}
{Enchant}
{zoro}
{Firebringer}
{Klick}
{NorwegianboyEE, Frogs}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P10

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Enchant, TemporalLich}
{Firebringer}
{Klick}
{NorwegianboyEE, Frogs}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P15.

[Ranger]

*14

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Enchant, TemporalLich}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{NorwegianboyEE, Frogs}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P15.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{TemporalLich}
{Firebringer, NorwegianboyEE}
{Frogs}
{Malakittens}
{Theta Alpine}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P17.

[Ranger]

ah yes dedicated page for ranger reads

Thereabouts, yeah.

I'm not getting new readslists every page; ~25/37 is a good guess.

[Ranger]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to just add all of these things in one post and spoiler them.

That'd remove the point in creating them.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Frogs}
{Doctor Drew}
{Students of Prudence}

P20.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons}
{WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Malakittens, Theta Alpine}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}
{Students of Prudence}

P21.

[Ranger]

I mean i'm not going to bother going back to check how each page caused you to switch one slot upwards or downwards.

That's your prerogative, and is valid.
People still have the option to, at any time they chose. Myself included.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Theta Alpine}
{Frogs}
{Students of Prudence}

P22.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}
{Students of Prudence}

P24.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Theta Alpine}
{Malakittens}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}
{Students of Prudence}

P26.

Have to leave now, will finish within 18 hours.

[Ranger]

Forgot this;
VOTE: Frogs

[Ranger]

What point of having topscumread and yet voting second top scumread

Near as I can tell, my vote on Students would be vanity. Nobody seems to hold interest in wagoning them.

Of course, I could've misjudged. It did seem so last night though.

[Ranger]

i have been having lots of tests medical wise on me for the last 2 weeks so i just havent been myself

You and me both. <3

[Ranger]

Ranger feels NAI at best to me, I'd want the top tier in 930 explained

Peregrine's play has impressed. I don't see any hints of being informed on aspects of the game, any agenda, or any scum motive/intent behind their posts. I do see signs of solving. I believe the claim, and think it +town.

WhemeStar's been looking progressively more +town as the game unfolds. I've seen evolution in WhemeStar's thoughts and contributions, producing nuanced posts.

Here There Be Dragons are both displaying promising approaches in their perspective. While both are longstanding players capable of faking their contributions thusfar as scum, I've vibed with their...well, vibes, fairly consistently.

[Ranger]

I feel like their posts are pretty transparently town. Like the way they are approaching this game and questioning things feels like its obviously from a town PoV.

This, for Peregrine-town.

[Ranger]

Ranger have you explained why you scum read prudence

I haven't.

I lack trust in 'this is playstyle' as a defense for lackluster play. I've seen furtiveglance before, I've seen RH before, and both are vastly underperforming in ways I feel +scum. Neither have given anything I've thought looked town. Every post they make seems like coming from an informed perspective.

[Ranger]

I always feel like Furt is scum early game, but nothing I have really seen from them so far seems out of the ordinary or scummy.

I'll put stock in this if I ever have you north of null.

Also Ranger, you really to to expand on your Wheme read, I don't see any of that from them.

I really don't. The WhemeStar read evolution is a page by page growth. You can track what vibed with me by where Wheme rose in position.

[Ranger]

one day players will learn that they sometimes think my town game resembles my scum game because my scum game is imitating my town game and im good at it

For what it's worth, I've this approach.

[Ranger]

So roughly page 8 or 9?
Where they got all defensive when asked why they didn't want to push Frogs and turned into just people wanting to kill all hydras, and then went all OMGUS on TL?
Am I on the right path?

It started around 159. I agreed with 169. I liked the insight of 181, especially because WhemeStar knows they're very voteable. I liked 192, and their approach in 193. 210 was very good insight I don't think a scum-Wheme makes, continued into 211. 222 and the push Wheme made on the page also indicate a solving mindset.

It's also vibes from posts.

Your call of that content as defensive seems disingenuous. I've reread it to check, and nothing from WhemeStar matches as defensive. The vote on TL wasn't OMGUS either.

[Ranger]

i am gently townreading [WhemeStar] because i think they're scumhunting and what i've seen of their scum game was not very good

^This.

[Ranger]

Anyone wanna talk about how Malakittens has made posts but basically isn't playing?

I have been thinking about this and think it is a slight scumtell!

I agree.
However, by gut her post today made me lean town.

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Theta Alpine}
{Firebringer}
{Malakittens}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}
{Students of Prudence}

P31*.

[Ranger]

im kind of surprised im not getting townread tbh, despite everything

I wasn't around yet. :P

[Ranger]

Who said Wheme is scum hunting? Huh?

Players reading the game in good faith, apparently.

812 is actually accurate; WhemeStar's scumhunted more than most players in the game.

Wait cakez ur assuming im town.
Why

Presumably, because Cakez is scum.

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Theta Alpine}
{Firebringer}
{Malakittens}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Frogs}
{Doctor Drew, Students of Prudence}

P33*.

[Ranger]

We need to kill the ascetic because i can't prime and ignite everyone with one around.

I laughed.

[Ranger]

I literally asked for an explanation of your town read on them and you said no and told me to do my own research.

That I did.

Your descriptor after having done so was still suspect.

Then when I did go to when your read changed, and brought up my view of that game state, you then went into details.....why not just do it when I asked a first time?

I'm lazy. :P

Wheme calls for votes on TL but doesn't vote them

Wheme voted TL before TL voted Wheme in that area?

[Ranger]

not like anyone is actually suggesting elimming drew

I am.
I'd vote any of {TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE, Frogs, Doctor Drew, Students of Prudence} right now.
Although TL/Norwee I'd prefer not to as they're my ambivalent tier.

[Ranger]

Ranger, don't you think Drew would benefit more as scum to not defend us?

That's not a thought I have, no.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Klick}
{Theta Alpine}
{Firebringer}
{Malakittens}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Frogs}
{Doctor Drew, Students of Prudence}

Caught up, current reads.

[Ranger]

I do not understand Ranger's effort and!! Playstyle because that seems like it may be tiring

Actually, my playstyle is zero-effort 90% of the time. Usually takes only 5 minutes to cover most content. I realize you asked me to provide more on Students. It'd take more effort than I'm currently willing to give, apologies. If the amount increases, I'll acquiesce the request; for now, I'm disinclined.

Ranger I like the readljst but you need to move lich up he's town

Quite possibly.
He's ambivalent to me.

You literally got defensive when called out about Frogs

I've read that part of the game two or three times by now.
There's nothing defensive in WhemeStar's posts there.

[Ranger]

973 is a scummy post, so less confident in my Firebringer townread now

Perhaps you linked the wrong post or see something I don't.

Please elaborate; what makes an image stating 'boy that escalated quickly' be scummy to you?

987 is ironically defensive

Disagreed. It could've been, with a different tone. The tone present felt a factual statement of truth. WhemeStar is correct in having not been defensive.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Frogs
I thought I was there already; I support the wagon.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Students of Prudence

I can support this.
Students has looked scum, and their hop onto Frogs was egregious.

[Ranger]

Why is Students of Prudence scum

I can answer in detail perhaps later.

Meanwhile, what merits are they town by?

[Ranger]

VOTE: Students of Prudence

[Ranger]

I unvoted because of the speed of the wagon. It seemed unnatural for a wagon on scum to be so easy.

Speed/composition of the Frogs wagon don’t concern me in regards to Frogs' alignment. I consider both NAI for Frogs.

I also feel similarly about the vote pileup on one page. I don’t think anything was ai for those joining there.

Of course, I still believe scum joined (Students in particular). I just don’t scumread them for joining.

[Ranger]

Day 1

ends

(expired on 2023-05-24 01:30:00)

That’s alarmingly close.

We’ve one day to eliminate a slot.

Time for consolidation.

[Ranger]

I get the sense that this wagon on us is activity-based, which is dumb. We're both busy with school, it's exam season.

I for one don’t care about your activity. I care about your content, and there, you’re criminally lacking. In short,

the posts you have made aren't good

[Ranger]

Im getting kind of paranoid that this game seems really easy

D1's not the place for paranoia.
It's a given games are never as easy as they seem. Reevaluate after they're proven less, not before.

[Ranger]

Finding mafia is easy.

Pro strat, if you call the entire playerlist town at least once, and if you call the entire playerlist scum at least once, you can argue 100% read accuracy, because you found the town and found the scum.

[Ranger]

These current wagons are in that awkward tier where i don’t feel comfortable calling them scum but i don’t have a for sure reasoning to townread them.

Those're the best slots to eliminate.

[Ranger]

I kinda of have the opposite problem, I used to always kinda scum read them early

Best solution, stop caring about accuracy. :P

Just give reads as they are, not caring if they're right or not.

[Ranger]

You know what, fuck it ranger can be town for the rest of the day just for that

I appreciate the sentiment. <3

I like readslists. They're a useful tool.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Students of Prudence
Scum claim

Regardless of Students' alignment, Klick's town.

This isn't a scum hammer; I understand why Klick thinks Students's claim was a scumclaim and agree with it.

[Ranger]

It felt like certain players had a problem with us as users. You know you don't have to be rude to players you're claiming to scumread.

If this was me, I apologize. I certainly hold no issues with either of you. I simply scumread your play. If I was too rude, I'm sorry.

[Ranger]

I do like this 'Mom Advice' Ranger lol.

I've been playing mafia longer than some who play have been alive. Feels good to give casual pointers.

[Ranger]

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar, Klick}
{Emperor flippyNips, Enchant}
{Theta Alpine}
{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}
{Frogs}
{Doctor Drew, Students of Prudence}

Updated reads.

[Ranger]

I'm glad Theta died; dead scum N1 > dead scum D2.

I'm miffed Theta died; had she not, I'd be voting her today.

Once students flipped town, I checked for which townread was wrong, and I landed on Theta.

It's good I was right, but annoying my effort was wasted.

For now, placeholder
VOTE: Frogs
With confirmation Theta's scum, I'll review interactions about 18 hours from now (give or take).

[Ranger]

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine}
{Klick}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Enchant}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Firebringer}
{TemporalLich}
{NorwegianboyEE}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

Preliminary reads. Will be reviewing with flips, end of D1, and D2, circa 18 hours from now.

[Ranger]

TemporalLich may be too low, Dragons may be too high.

[Ranger]

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine}
{Klick}
{Enchant}
{TemporalLich}
{Emperor flippyNips, Here There Be Dragons}
{Firebringer}
{NorwegianboyEE}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

Still not sure about this, but it feels better.

Will continue digging.

[Ranger]

Even tho I don't really understand why you are miffed. I think it's a good thing that you got confirmation of your scum read.

It’s

good

, I'm just miffed it meant my efforts last night were wasted. I came into today believing I'd be making a big reveal of Theta being scum. Oh well!

[Ranger]

Apologies it took extra 12 hours, medical issues arose.

Important;

Whemestar bodyguarded someone from mafia kill. Because they were targeted instead, Disabler kicked in. Therefore mafia can't kill anyone next night.

While I'm not certain it works this way,

if

it does,

WE ARE A ONE SHOT VIG / ONE SHOT TRACKER

Ideal play would be holstering any protection/tracking/watching actions with gates.

It does need to be verified the disable works on the factional kill and not just the player making the kill.

Mafia tried to kill someone but killed Wheme instead who retaliated and killed Theme in response.

I wouldn't be surprised if mafia straight-up shot WhemeStar. Wheme was one of the most universally townread players D1. The only other player I can think of on par universally was Peregrine, who by virtue of ascetic, wouldn't be protected by Wheme.

If Wheme did save someone, though, I still think Kitty Trauma Team shot Theta regardless.

[Ranger]

Do you have any way to confirm this.

I've no need to confirm what I know is true.

Still,

What metric do you use to measure someone being townie or scummy at all?

Answering this is beneficial.

The simple answer is, I don't.

My scumhunting process is a series of snap-calls repeatedly, divided into two halves. There's an emphasis on fluidity, with everything being in-the-moment judgements. (If I forget a reason for a read and it's stale, move closer to null. I can always strengthen it again later if I remember why.)

READSLISTS:
Does my readslist look right?
If so, continue.
If not, what looks wrong on it?
Continue adjusting until it feels right.

POSTS:
Does this post affect the read I have on a player, strengthening/weakening my read on them?
If no, continue.
If yes, does it change their position in my readslist?
If no, continue.
If yes, adjust the readslist accordingly.

My read on Theta changed for three reasons.


The first, Students flipped town. Looking at my last readslist, it was lacking in scumreads. Having only two scumreads and two nullreads, I was short on scum.

The second, the extended twilight posting. Theta Alpine made many posts which indicated she believed Students' claim, in a way I thought indicated her the opposite alignment of Students. Had Students flipped scum, I'd think her clear from a townslip. With Students town, I believed she slipped knowing Students would flip town.


The third, I actually did have a Theta Alpine scumread earlier. Some time between my reading of P26 and my reading of P31, the read flipped to a weak townread. Where she stayed the remainder of the day.
I didn't remember why I swapped her from scum to town; I knew the townread was weak and consistently so; I had reason to believe she had scumslipped after Students flipped town.

So, Theta Alpine was my top pick for scum last night.

[Ranger]

IDK if thats the correct way to say it.

I'm getting really tired of explaining this every game.

I am not mastina.
I don't have her feelings, emotions, philosophies, thoughts, processing methods, speaking patterns, or memories. She is an entirely different person.

Near as I can tell

, there isn't any single one person named mastina in her system, because mastina is the collection of everyone in her system.

I am also plural. There isn't any single one person named Ranger in my system, although we all identify by the name at least partially.


We do have some things in common, such as both being veteran mafia players with an internalized scumhunting process which makes heavy usage of readslists. (I don't actually know what mastina's process is, you'd need to ask her, but whatever hers is, it isn't mine.)

The similarities end there. She and I are as different as you and kuribo are. You're both experienced in the medical field and play mafia, but are you the same person? Of course not.

It's okay to ask me if I've familiarity with a game mastina was in.
It's not okay to assume I'm an alt of her. She and I have vastly different philosophies, playstyles, and life experiences.

I've an established meta at this point.
There's no need for comparing me to someone I loathe. Use MY completed games, not hers.

[Ranger]

both heads going vla for the weekend until May 29th

i feel like my frogs read is pretty stale and was partially based on alisae not doing anything
i still think cakez was pretty scummy tho
im gonna VOTE: firebringer for funzies and my better half can change that if he wants
~std

This is a terrible post which tanks my townread on the slot.
What keeps it from outright placing Dragons into scum is providing benefit of the doubt; it

could

be a bad post by virtue of the v/la. (When stressed, rushed posts being bad're NAI.)

It still is alarming regardless.

[Ranger]

we and flippy are theta's neighbors. i think he could still possibly be scum, but we aren't both scum

Are all-scum neighborhoods something against the rules of BooneyToonz?
Are all-scum neighborhoods something Flavor Leaf's spoken negatively about previously?

If the answer to both is 'no', then you can't clear the neighborhood.

I've stronger suspects than you or EmperorFlippynips; you're not my current priority. Still, I'm certainly never clearing either of you on setup spec.

[Ranger]

I jailed Klick to hood them

This is a claim I believe; it is also a claim I think is a scum role.

[Ranger]

look, i wish temporallich were scum too. the dude makes no sense. unfortunately, he just isn't

This was my take from Theta Alpine's interactions as well.

TemporalLich's play is consistently terrible and radiates +scum.

However, imo, Theta Alpine's interactions suggest TemporalLich is town, and I view these as significantly stronger than the bad play.

[Ranger]

i just think it's extremely possible that theta performed the kill and i don't plan to ignore that possibility

It's possible Theta performed the kill and WhemeStar blocked it.

It's possible Theta performed the kill and WhemeStar was the target.

It's possible Theta didn't perform the kill and WhemeStar was the target.

Regardless of which, I believe Kitty Trauma Team's claim. Whatever the scum kill was last night, the Kitty Trauma Team kill was certainly Theta Alpine. Given I also was under the impression Theta was a great target last night, I fully believe KTT targeted her with a kill.

The shade on them is egregious.

[Ranger]

I would be very interested to see you break down hoods from past BooneyToonz games to now.

Nah.

Why is this post terrible to you

The reasoning behind giving up on scumreading you after there's dead scum overnight (which disincentives any D1 bussing from continuing into D2) felt forced, and the vote was both safe and weak.

[Ranger]

I wouldn't be surprised if mafia straight-up shot WhemeStar. Wheme was one of the most universally townread players D1.

Are you projecting your TR onto Wheme or what people thought of Wheme?

I'm fairly certain the majority of players had WhemeStar as town. Perhaps not as strongly as I did, but most seemed to have him north of null. The number who didn't can be counted on a single hand.

I'll say my first thought on seeing WhemeStar's flip wasn't him bodyguarding correctly. My first thought was scum shot him directly.

[Ranger]

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine}
{TemporalLich}
{Klick}
{Enchant}
{Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{NorwegianboyEE, Here There Be Dragons}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

Klick goes up to KTT tier if Frogs is scum. Would require a Frogs scumflip tho.

[Ranger]

But people have said that they are unlikely to be partnered so that is frustrating!!!

Frustration's something you need to accept is part of this game.

I get the frustration with TemporalLich's posts; I see the +scum as well.

I also feel Theta Alpine's interactions strongly suggest TemporalLich isn't scum with her; I believe this more than I believe the scumminess of TL's posts.

[Ranger]

I jailed Klick to hood them

This is a claim I believe; it is also a claim I think is a scum role.

This warrants explanation.

WhemeStar's role was essentially the ultimate protective. It didn't just block kills. It also blocked any action scum would take on the target, by virtue of redirecting them onto WhemeStar. No ability to roleblock Wheme's target; rolecops will get the wrong result; etc.

If WhemeStar successfully protected a player from a kill, Wheme would kill the attacker.

Say you had a scum elimination D1.
Say WhemeStar successfully protected N1.
Say Kitty Trauma Team successfully killed scum N1.

If those were three different scum players, we'd have 3 dead scum by D2.

Then, we have Students' gunsmith on top of this for town power. Students could guilty a fourth scum going into D2.

If you assume Kitty Trauma Team is town (notably, Frogs does), then you must assume this perfect storm could've happened.

Additionally, Kitty Trauma Team also has a track, WhemeStar's protection could potentially block the mafia kill, and then on top of all this, you want to add in a jailkeeping neighborizer?

Even if the role is gated (I assumed so), that's a scumteam which has no flipped counterplay options to a town filled with tools which scum have little answer to. While all the town roles are appropriately gated, they don't need to be strong consistently. Just snowballing a lead early would be enough to make the game nigh-unwinnable for scum.

I expect scum contain significant power of their own. However, I don't see how any combination of scum roles gives them enough to survive the storm above if all are town. These roles are very hard to not produce useful results.

The jailkeeping neighborizer being scum instantly changes this. Instantly, it removes a killstopper from the town's total power, while also granting the scum a roleblocker which can nullify one of the roles above. By virtue of being a neighborizer, the action would be justifiable, making it safe to claim.

It fits perfectly as a scum role. Given I also scumread Frogs by play, I maintain Frogs would be a good elimination.

[Ranger]

I think wolves might be able to be found based on who was TRing Wheme

Checking this is on my to-do list; I mostly agree. I'd wager scum largely had Wheme as null to town. You had Wheme as mostly null for instance; I wouldn't disqualify you from the pool of those likely to kill him.

[Ranger]

Would u have these reads if you were mafia

Yes. Or something close to, presumably.

If I try to think of where mafia would actually be in your reads I cannot find it.

Well if I'm doing my job right, it's at the bottom. :P

[Ranger]

Vote Count 2.02

Emperor flippyNips [2]:

TemporalLich, Enchant

VOTE: Emperor flippynips

VOTE: flippy

VOTE: Flippy

This is a rather suspect wagon.

I don't think the reasons for suspecting Emperor flippyNips warrants him as the main wagon, and the votes on him are largely terrible.


While Peregrine's reasons I buy, the Dragons/Drew votes are terrible.

Though it's possible Emperor Flippynips is scum, I don't think he's

likely

scum.

I'd vote Drew before Emperor, and even Dragons before Emperor at this point. Still, my preference remains Frogs.

Were I to make a scumteam callout, my current yolo-solve's {Theta Alpine, Frogs, Doctor Drew, Here There Be Dragons}.

[Ranger]

whats sus about drew

What's town?

Theta Alpine consistently had Doctor Drew suspiciously at null.

Doctor Drew voted Theta Alpine, yet never tried to push for a Theta Alpine elimination. He stated why he was scumreading her. He didn't talk to anyone and try to sway them, and was quick to abandon the wagon.

Doctor Drew's voting history in that regard is rather suspect. He consistently went from voting Theta Alpine to voting a leading wagon on (presumed) town. He voted WhemeStar while there was a wagon on WhemeStar. He voted TemporalLich while there was a wagon on TemporalLich. He pivoted into being the L-1 vote on Students. (Notably, he avoided voting Frogs.)

He's made multiple statements giving the appearance of scumhunting.

I don't see any actual solving in those.

[Ranger]

TemporalLich [5]: Theta Alpine, Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, WhemeStar, NorwegianBoyEE
Frogs [7]: Here There Be Dragons, norWegianboyEe, malakittens, Ranger, TL, Flippy, Prudence

I'd like to note: absent from this L-1 wagon was Theta Alpine.

Important; Frogs called the TemporalLich wagon as having more town on it. Theta Alpine was on the TemporalLich wagon, yet

not

the Frogs wagon.

My current assumptions;
Kitty Trauma Team are town who did shoot Theta Alpine;
TemporalLich wasn't scum being bussed by Theta Alpine and is town;
Prudence is town.

Given this and knowing my own alignment, there's not much room for scum on Frogs. {Here There Be Dragons, NorwegianboyEE, Emperor flippyNips} is it.

If there's scum on both wagons and if Frogs is town, this would mean scum went from one mislim wagon, to a different mislim wagon, to a

third

mislim wagon on Students. (Not accounting for there also being a WhemeStar wagon.)
Largely as a group.

Scum generally don't act in that manner. They

can

, if they want to strongly be unified, end the day early, or if they want to save scum. Usually, the answer is something else.

I find it more likely both wagons were driven primarily by town.

frogs is a compromise wagon at best though
low if any content
like sure maybe we should pressure there but ehhhh not really an elim choice unless we get desperate
there has got to be better choices at this point with how long we have been out of rvs it seems
now i just need to find them

frogs
hmmm
i read them earlier and they were firmly null with no content then
their recent posting is
it does feel like appeal to emotion to me
though i would like to see more posting from them first before reaching a decision

hmm
i mean i get called out for appeal to emotion as town sometimes but
i am not sure that is the same thing for me
and i have not done the thing that usually gets me called out for appeal to emotion this game for that matter but it is something i do not think is actually appeal to emotion

hmm
frogs i think we are the scummiest players in the game right now

Theta Alpine notably was on the first Frogs wagon, yet not the second. Theta Alpine was rather hedgey on her Frogs read, treading carefully. She also defended the Frogs wagon off the speed of it.

Theta's iso

could

indicate Theta was trying to pocket Frogs and play around them, yet imo the evidence is stronger Theta Alpine was trying to save a scumbuddy.

[Ranger]

I've reconsidered my Dragons scumread (Norwee may actually fit better, need to check more), although the net effect of this is my readslist visibly remaining nearly unchanged.

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich}
{Klick}
{Enchant}
{Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{NorwegianboyEE, Here There Be Dragons}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

[Ranger]

If there's scum on both wagons and if Frogs is town, this would mean scum went from one mislim wagon, to a different mislim wagon, to a

third

mislim wagon on Students. (Not accounting for there also being a WhemeStar wagon.)
Largely as a group.

Scum generally don't act in that manner. They

can

, if they want to strongly be unified, end the day early, or if they want to save scum. Usually, the answer is something else.

Can you back up that assertion

Yeah. Read any game on mafiascum. Did the scum move from one mislim, to another mislim, to a third mislim, largely as a group?

It'll take you a while to find one which they do. (It's uncommon.)
When you do, it'll likely be...they wanted to be strongly unified, end the day early, or save scum.

It'll take you much longer to find a game where they performed the first without the second. (It's uncommon among the uncommon, and thus very rare.)

[Ranger]

The wagon evidence presented in Ranger's 1848 just makes me think scum in {Ranger, flippyNips, Dragons} is even more likely than before

It's possible.
Emperor flippyNips certainly is no beacon of towniness. Dragons I briefly thought scum, and even now at null they could be.

However, there seems to be a focus on the wagons as evidence.

I've much stronger evidence.

I've believed Frogs scum by play the entire game.
I believe Frogs' role is a scum role.
I believe Frogs fits the profile of a Theta Alpine scumbuddy.

I truly believe if you want scum dead, the best chance is Frogs.

[Ranger]

So you're going to make the statement but have me go back it up for you

You're contesting a claim which is a self-evident truth on mafiascum.

I'm not the one whose position needs backing.

The foundation of VCA for 20 years has been based around the concept. Scum don't generally move from one mislim, to another mislim, to another mislim, largely as a group. I'm not going to sort through 99% of games on mafiascum to demonstrate this tendency across nearly every game onsite. (About 8k threads.)

In the 1% where scum did, it was usually a deliberate effort to move as a group, to end the day early, or to save a scumbuddy. I'm not going through 80 games to demonstrate they did this in all but 8.

If you believe contrary, the burden is on you to prove me wrong; I'm fairly certain 99% of the site would back my position.

[Ranger]

You're wrong. I have stronger evidence than you that Frogs is town

None which I will believe.

Frogs isn't an innocent child or friendly neighbor.

Whatever role they have, it isn't clearing.

Frogs claimed their action meant you couldn't act last night, stating they jailed you to neighborize you. I've no reason to doubt the sincerity of this action. (I even buy modifiers would be present.)

I've reason to doubt the alignment of Frogs, along with any modifiers or additions Frogs tacks onto their claim.

We had a gunsmith, who could get false guilties on two town players and a third (Peregrine) who couldn't be investigated, yet still had four nights of investigation available.

We had an elite bodyguard, who could prevent any scum action on their target from going through, and if said action was a nightkill, would kill the mafiate while also preventing the scum from acting the next night. This was gated to two shots, yet it only needed one.

We have a 1x vig, who could kill scum, who is also a 1x tracker who can track scum after there's dead scum.

With a scum elimination on D1, the game could genuinely end with a town win on D2, if WhemeStar successfully protected from the scum nightkill, and Kitty Trauma Team successfully killed a second scum, and Students got a gunsmith guilty on the final scum.

Even if an extra scum survived the process, with the scum down to only 1 scum by the end of D2, the tracker and the jailing-neighborizer become full cops, as a clear would clear their target.

What would scum have to counter the gunsmith, elite bodyguard-rolestopper, vig/tracker,

and

jailing-neighborizer?
Theta Alpine flipped goon.
The scum have to have power.

It's nearly certain scum have some form of blocking power.
It's nearly certain scum have some form of protective.

Frogs' jailing fits the first, because they explicitly claimed Klick was blocked N1.
Frogs' jailing presumably fits the second.

Frogs' role by itself brings the town to a level of power I've trouble believing.
Frogs' role by itself brings the scum to a level of power capable of countering the town.

Forgive me for stating the obvious on Frogs' role fitting better as scum.

[Ranger]

What you're saying isn't convincing to me and I think you're scum

I like my chances for being the more accurate of us.

[Ranger]

For the record,

if

Frogs is scum, my readslist would be;
{Kitty Trauma Team, Klick}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich, Enchant}
{Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips, Here There Be Dragons}
{NorwegianboyEE}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

However, since I don't have confirmation Frogs is scum yet, my readslist remains;

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich}
{Klick}
{Enchant}
{Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{NorwegianboyEE, Here There Be Dragons}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

[Ranger]

I still do not understand why Ranger is being scumread

Klick's being pocketed by scum, scum are threatened by me, that simple.

[Ranger]

Norwee is very obvious town.
Drew has probably moved about the game in ways that make me think they're town trying to solve > mafia.

[citation needed]

[Ranger]

Ranger's posts give me the distinct impression she's informed about the gamestate

Depends on your definition of 'informed about the gamestate'.
I've very good memory for thread vibes.
I might not remember who was townreading WhemeStar yesterday; I remember most players were. The vibes of the thread were WhemeStar town.

When the vibes of the thread yesterday were Wheme as town, the idea suggesting Wheme couldn't have been a direct nightkill was baffling.

I do intend to look who had Wheme as town yesterday. Were I truly informed, I'd likely know already. I don't, since I work from memory.

[Ranger]

is there even the remotest trajectory for this ranger read

Not particularly. I've been suspiciously null in Frogs' reads. Even after I was part of the L-1 wagon on Frogs, Frogs did absolutely nothing to develop a read on me.

Is it by debating logically the exact reasons why I have come to the conclusion that {Ranger, flippyNips, Dragons} is the most likely place for scum to be?

Your logic amounts to PoE by clearing players I believe to be scum. You've outlined why you feel they're town; I've outlined why I disagree with your reads/conclusions.

As your PoE includes a slot I know is town, I like my chances of standing on the correct side of the debate.

[Ranger]

idunno plenty of reasons why one minute i could be in the joking mood next minute im not

As someone plural, I relate to this, as different fronters have different reactions.

[Ranger]

Peregrine they think is probably really hard to push so that's where they are.

I've no fear to push a slot hard to push.

I've no reason to push a slot I've every reason to believe is town.

Norwee is definitely town. I wouldn't be surprised if Norwee was protected, I think that's an action that actually makes sense.

Not a chance. Likely protect was actually TemporalLich, looking at Wheme's iso.

[Ranger]

its also funny because I think dragons was just like cheerleading ranger on but I could be wrong hold on

They did.
They're possibly scum in part for it.

Still, I'm never getting limmed here and any theory relying on me being scum is inherently wrong.

I'd certainly compromise on Dragons. Maybe even Emperor Flippynips.

I maintain the best elimination remains Frogs.
I maintain a scumread on Doctor Drew.
I maintain a nullread on Norwee.

So, my total lim pool is {Frogs, Doctor Drew, Norwee, Emperor FlippyNips, Here There Be Dragons}.

[Ranger]

I just let you do your thing and eventually I'll probably figure it out

Considering you're voting me and say I'm scum, I've clear evidence you've not figured it out.

[Ranger]

u will compromise on dragons

Yeah. I've also stated the idea of clearing Dragons/Emperor Flippynips due to being neighbors with Theta Alpine isn't something I'm interested in.

That I've been critical of both Dragons and Emperor Flippynips doesn't fit neatly into your worldview, so you've been ignoring it.

[Ranger]

If there's scum on both wagons and if Frogs is town, this would mean scum went from one mislim wagon, to a different mislim wagon, to a

third

mislim wagon on Students. (Not accounting for there also being a WhemeStar wagon.)
Largely as a group.

Scum generally don't act in that manner. They

can

, if they want to strongly be unified, end the day early, or if they want to save scum. Usually, the answer is something else.

Can you back up that assertion

Yeah. Read any game on mafiascum. Did the scum move from one mislim, to another mislim, to a third mislim, largely as a group?

It'll take you a while to find one which they do. (It's uncommon.)
When you do, it'll likely be...they wanted to be strongly unified, end the day early, or save scum.

It'll take you much longer to find a game where they performed the first without the second. (It's uncommon among the uncommon, and thus very rare.)

What kind of silly logic is this?

The correct kind?

Do scum, largely as a group, largely move from one wagon, to another wagon, to another wagon, with all the wagons they move on being town, without a coordinate effort to deliberately vote together, without scum endangered, without a desire to end a day phase early?

The answer to that is demonstrably 'no'. They don't. At least not on mafiascum.

[Ranger]

Alisae is playing in their town meta here and is not scum. Finito.

Well given I'm town and everyone saying Alisae is town is saying that means I'm scum, consider me skeptical of the slot I believe has mechanical reasons to be scum, interaction-based reasons to be scum, and play-based reasons to be scum.

[Ranger]

Ranger is not playing in a way that is making me more confident about their alignment not being scum.

Yeah, my goal's to eliminate scum, not look town.

[Ranger]

You don't really want to directly confront me so you do this half-shade, don't explain your thoughts, and silly ass "logic" to try to turn the gamestate in your favour.
I really didn't like how you were all like "Ah yes, my mindset is so amazingly unique it simply cannot be explained. My reads are just on another level!"

I don't know who this is directed towards; it certainly isn't me.

[Ranger]

Lol so after all that you only have me as a NULLREAD.

Technically, ambivalent.

Null places you in the PoE. I don't have a read on you. Your play could be scum, it could be town. You have interactions which support being scum, you have evidence suggesting you're town. You look suspect by vote history, yet aren't acting as I expect scum actually did by the history.

[Ranger]

This isn't arguing with a scumread. This is arguing to a townread

I don't know how you reached the conclusion interacting with a scumread meant I was talking to them assuming they were town.

I saw a post I thought beneficial to engage. Whatever you saw, I sure didn't. Frogs argued I was informed about the gamestate. I figured I could use the flawed argument to explain a point I wanted to raise.

[Ranger]

and scum also tried to kill Norwee

I don't believe that.

I'll believe WhemeStar targeted Norwee. It's baffling because there's zero chance scum actually would've killed Norwee since Norwee was fairly universally null yesterday so it's not an action which would've succeeded. I'm not WhemeStar though so I can buy him having made that protection.

There's no chance Norwee was killed by the scum.

To me, that's confirmation WhemeStar was directly killed, and by virtue, Kitty Trauma Team killed Theta Alpine.

[Ranger]

would scum!ranger really be trying to obfuscate scum kill by going "ohh its obvious it was TL" when it was really Norwee. Probably?

My stance has consistently been WhemeStar didn't save someone from a kill, and was directly killed.

When I said it was TemporalLich, it was my guess at who WhemeStar targeted off of WhemeStar's iso. TemporalLich was mentioned more consistently as town within, and Norwee was only mentioned once as town in a list of three. My belief WhemeStar was directly killed was in part due to my belief TemporalLich wouldn't have been nightkilled. It remains for Norwee.

[Ranger]

Norwee kill makes a lot of sense

It doesn't.

Norwee wasn't widely townread by the vibes yesterday.
WhemeStar was.

WhemeStar being confirmed to target Norwee is confirmation WhemeStar was directly killed, and confirmation Theta Alpine was vigged by Kitty Trauma Team.

[Ranger]

I still do not understand why Ranger is being scumread

Klick's being pocketed by scum, scum are threatened by me, that simple.

scummy post actually

Well it's true.

I wasn't under any pressure until I picked up my push on Frogs.

The players pivoted from pushing Emperor Flippynips and Here There Be Dragons to instead push me.

Nothing in Emperor Flippynips changed;
Nothing in Here There Be Dragons changed;
The only change was my increase in pushing Frogs, by pointing out why I'm scumreading them across every metric.

Ergo, scum were threatened by me, Klick is pocketed by that scum, and the basis of the scumreads on me is scum being threatened by me.

also you thinking I was the nightkill target is quite strange

I don't.

I thought WhemeStar protected you, while scum directly killed WhemeStar.

I would call both you and Norwee poor protections, personally. Neither you or Norwee were good kill targets last night. Reading WhemeStar's iso led me to believe it was you. We now have confirmation it was Norwee.

Regardless, though, the kill remains as certainly directly on WhemeStar.

[Ranger]

ya i agree how about we give the birthday boy a wolf flip for his birthday

Well if you want a mafia flip you're going to need to vote scum, which you currently aren't, so...

[Ranger]

Whemestar wasn’t really "universally townread", i’d say it was more like people thought it could be town but they weren’t sure however the slot was largely ignored.

WhemeStar was widely townread at day's end.

People did wagon WhemeStar earlier.

The wagon fell apart with nobody pushing WhemeStar after.

Those were the thread vibes.

[Ranger]

id like to request we stop clearing klick after i flip town

Klick's not clear if Frogs is town; on this I agree.

With Frogs as scum, Klick is always town though; Frogs' N1 action on Klick is never targeting a scumbuddy.

[Ranger]

If you got good arguments i’m willing to listen to them.

1842, 1848.

[Ranger]

I kinda prefer Ranger. I think Dragons is making real bad posts right now, but not the type that would convince anyone so dunno if it’s scummy.

Ranger is not playing in a way that is making me more confident about their alignment not being scum.

One of these is not like the others.

[Ranger]

Neither of you were in hot water until relatively recently

I wonder what would've gotten me in the spotlight?

Perhaps...

I still do not understand why Ranger is being scumread

Klick's being pocketed by scum, scum are threatened by me, that simple.

This could have something to do with it?

[Ranger]

Frogs is just town, that's non-negotiable

And you wonder why I'm not negotiating with you.

I trust my scumread more than I trust your mysterious townread.

[Ranger]

If you wanna argue Whemestar was seen as townie then it’s sorta ironic that you mentioned they were wagoned yesterday.

The ideas of a player having been wagoned,
And that player being widely townread,
Aren't mutually exclusive.

WhemeStar was wagoned.
WhemeStar was, later, widely townread.
These are both facts.

When players gave their reasons for suspecting WhemeStar, and those reasons were engaged, they realized their suspicion was unfounded and, largely, began to townread WhemeStar.

I feel like you arguing this is kinda farfetched and only to make me seem less credible and trustworthy.

What a coincidence.

I feel arguing scum killed a player almost nobody was townreading is a way to falsely clear a scum slot.

[Ranger]

Norwee kill makes a lot of sense

It doesn't.

Norwee wasn't widely townread by the vibes yesterday.
WhemeStar was.

WhemeStar being confirmed to target Norwee is confirmation WhemeStar was directly killed, and confirmation Theta Alpine was vigged by Kitty Trauma Team.

Completely backwards take

It's not backwards. It's what happened.

Norwee wasn't widely townread yesterday. That's a fact.
Whemestar was widely townread at the end of yesterday. That's a fact.

The WhemeStar wagon resulted in WhemeStar becoming townread. Scum were likely to shoot him.

WhemeStar being confirmed to target a player scum would never kill is confirmation WhemeStar was directly killed.

There's also another factor.
The ideas of Norwee being the scum kill,
And Ranger being scum,
Are mutually exclusive.

I never kill Norwee here. I'd have no reason to.

Any scumteam killing Norwee would by requirement have reason to kill Norwee.
It's my belief no scumteam had reason to kill Norwee.

Even if I'm wrong, even if they did, that I would never have reason to kill Norwee means I cannot have killed Norwee.

[Ranger]

And you know. Theta wagon fell apart too yesterday.
Would you argue that meant we were all townreading them?

Yes, actually.

Theta Alpine was nearly universally townread at the end of D1.

[Ranger]

"""""" Mysterious """"""

You've implied it's more, based on Frogs' role.

I buy neither your stated reason or a mysterious role as indicative of Alisae being town.

[Ranger]

You are not Mafia.

True.

What mafia team

does

kill Norwee though?

I wouldn't.
I doubt Here There Be Dragons does.
Kitty Trauma Team certainly wouldn't.

{TemporalLich, Klick, Peregrine, Emperor FlippyNips} are all slots I don't know either way if they would or wouldn't.

The pool of those who would is,
{Doctor Drew, Frogs, Enchant, Firebringer}.

From your perspective, you know you didn't.

From your perspective, if you believe mafia did kill Norwee, then you must therefore believe the scumteam contains players who

would

kill Norwee.

And therefore, IF Norwee

were

killed last night, there

must

be scum in {Doctor Drew, Frogs, Firebringer}.
Since Firebringer is claiming to have used a non-killing action, it couldn't have been him. The idea of Firebringer being scum is mutually exclusive with a Norwee kill because Firebringer wouldn't use a personal ability on the scum kill.

So it follows IF Norwee

were

killed last night, there must be scum in {Doctor Drew, Frogs}.

I don't think Norwee was killed last night. I believe it was WhemeStar. WhemeStar being directly killed opens up the killer to be nearly anyone. If it WAS Norwee, then it must've been someone who thought Norwee was a good kill target. The number of players who thought Norwee was a good kill can be counted on a single hand.

[Ranger]

I can see this particular topic is a waste of time to engage with you on.

Well when you're arguing something I know isn't true, I'm certainly not going to change my stance.

[Ranger]

We shall kill Norwee tonight. That norwegian knew what he did for calling me town and must pay with his life.

This indicates Firebringer did target Norwee last night.

Since WhemeStar might've been scumreading Firebringer (hard to tell for sure), it would also track WhemeStar targeted Norwee.

kuribo had Norwee at null, and WhemeStar as a scumread, yet with an asterisk;

Might be willing to move Whemestar up a notch. Not because of anything the slot's done, mostly for funsies.

(This contributes to WhemeStar being perceived positively.)

{Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons,

WhemeStar

, Klick}
(cut)
{TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE}

I had Norwee at null, and WhemeStar as a townread.

NorwegianboyEE

WhemeStar

Klick had Norwee as town, and WhemeStar as a scumread.

i'm townreading everyone who's voting students with me right now

Vote Count 1.08

Students of Prudence [4]:

Firebringer, Whemestar, Ranger, Here There Be Dragons

Here There Be Dragons didn't state a Norwee read (null?), and had WhemeStar as a townread. (Townreading those on the wagon, WhemeStar was on the wagon, ergo, townread WhemeStar.)

[Town]

NorwegianboyEE - thoughtstreaming a town mindset, confident in townreading
(gap)
WhemeStar - scummy, but maybe town.
[below this line indicates good lims]

TemporalLich had Norwee as town, and had WhemeStar as a townread.

2 of those people that I think are town are voting me are norwee and flippy

Frogs had Norwee as town, and had WhemeStar as a nullread.

VOTE: Frogs
Wheme feels better now.

(I've not been collecting dead players' stances in this readback, likely should. Still,) Students had WhemeStar as 'feels better now'.

I lean town here I think! I don't feel she is extremely towny, but I liked the perspective on the WhemeStar read! While reading it, I was able to agree with the points that she made without feeling as if I had to struggle to understand, and has also had the consequence of improving my read on Wheme!

Peregrine had Norwee as a townread earlier (nothing later), and Whemestar as a townread.

the me and frogs thing made 0 sense and just affirmed my thoughts that Tl was scum hows that omgus when he was one of my top scumreads at the time

Ugh, reading through that again(the posts that Ranger linked), and not trying to be tunnely, I guess I can see this

Doctor Drew didn't take much of a Norwee stance and had WhemeStar as a townread (eventually).

Very town never limming day one: Enchant, Norwee, Lich,
Probably Town. Most Likely won't vote today unless i have to like compromise or some shit - Doctor Drew, Whemestar

Firebringer had Norwee as town and had WhemeStar as a townread.

Why is norwee good to you?
They haven’t responded to me yet and that is in fact, scummy

Emperor flippyNips had Norwee as scum, and had no stance on WhemeStar.

Enchant took no stance on either as far as I could tell.

WhemeStar town: 8
WhemeStar null/unspecified: 2
WhemeStar scum: 2

Norwee town: 5
Norwee null/unspecified:4
Norwee Scum: 1

That's the total from the vibes.
It supports WhemeStar being

very

widely townread,
And Norwee being mostly null. There's more Norwee townreads than I remember I admit, with it closer to 50/50 townread/scumread. It's still factual WhemeStar was more town than Norwee.

[Ranger]

Norwee wasn't widely townread yesterday. That's a fact.
Whemestar was widely townread at the end of yesterday. That's a fact.

You are such full of shit that i almost want to go back and trace down everyones reads because this just sounds like a total bullshit story your trying to sell.

What a coincidence, I actually

did

go back and trace down everyone's reads on WhemeStar and Norwee.

I was wrong in my assumption Norwee wasn't being townread basically at all; there was more support for Norwee being town than I remember. I'll concede Norwee

had

townreads. Still, it was far closer to 50/50.

I maintain WhemeStar is the far more likely kill, because WhemeStar was being near-universally townread. There were

eight

players (at least) who had positive feelings about WhemeStar. And the number of scumreads equaled the number of nullreads (2 each). With one of said scumreads also improving with time.

I didn't invent WhemeStar being town.

You all have bad memory of what happened and didn't believe me when I said I had good memory of the vibes.
Turns out I did in fact have good memory of the vibes.

[Ranger]

ranger continously talking about game vibes and then telling me a story of what happened in this game just makes me think she played a different game then me

Well the game I played is the game which actually happened, so I don't know what game you played; it certainly wasn't this one.

The vibes had WhemeStar as town. At least eight positive, only two negative (with one also being more favorable), and the others neutral.

The vibes had Norwee as 50% neutral. I was wrong in thinking Norwee was mostly neutral, as there was more support of Norwee being town than I remembered.

I'll concede it's

possible

if Norwee's town, Norwee was killed. It would require the killers to be largely among those calling Norwee town, and the list of those who had Norwee as town is {Klick, TemporalLich, Frogs, Peregrine*}. (Firebringer also townread Norwee but targeted Norwee with his PR, disqualifying him from being scum killing Norwee.)

Conclusion;
EITHER:
WhemeStar was directly killed,
OR:
{Klick, TemporalLich, Frogs, Peregrine} contains scum who killed Norwee.

[Ranger]

a very low confidence scumread on WhemeStar is apparently a townread now...

For the sake of vibes and considering you started with a stronger scumread?

Yes.

A player starting with a stronger scumread on WhemeStar, who then later has their WhemeStar scumread weaken, counts as vibes for WhemeStar being town. It indicates momentum was swinging towards WhemeStar being town.

[Ranger]

WhemeStar was out of the PoE because I was thinking WhemeStar could be town despite my scumread, and I already had a PoE of 5 players anyway

Which counts as a townread for the purposes of vibes.

I've been quite consistent in stating WhemeStar was vibed as town.

Perhaps there's confusion on what I meant by vibes in the first place?

Vibes mean overall momentum. There was overwhelming momentum behind WhemeStar being town. It was an idea gaining force. The reads on WhemeStar continued moving further north. The players who initially scumread WhemeStar had largely ceased doing so, yourself included. "could be town despite my scumread" is a much more favorable stance on WhemeStar than "is my top scumread". You went from the latter to the former, demonstrating WhemeStar was looking more town. This was true of multiple players.

There wasn't overwhelming momentum behind Norwee being town. There were players townreading Norwee, about equal to the players with no read on Norwee. These reads didn't overwhelmingly improve. Norwee didn't have reads moving further north, at least not overwhelmingly.

There's evidence supporting Norwee was certainly a

possible

kill. If so, this is damning for those with Norwee as town on D1.
There's much stronger evidence WhemeStar was a

likely

kill.

[Ranger]

I mean yeah but in no way should my reads on WhemeStar and Norwee be considered equivalent - a scumread with a rising trend and leaving the PoE is not equivalent to a top read

For vibes, the metric is different.

Vibes are momentum-oriented, not strength-of-read-oriented.

The momentum behind WhemeStar was indicating WhemeStar was gaining strength behind being townread. Eight players had favorable opinions of WhemeStar at least compared to earlier stances.

The momentum behind Norwee was...not really, at least to my memory. My memory had Norwee's vibes as not indicating town. (I'd need to double-check to see if there was a notable uptick in Norwee's position in reads. By memory, there wasn't.)

So by vibes, WhemeStar was widely townread;
By vibes, Norwee wasn't.

[Ranger]

Why would a kill ln me mean that scum absolutely must and can only be in the slots that townread me?

Scum tend to kill players they believe represent a threat.

For scum to believe you represent a threat, they need to believe you're dangerously town.

For scum to believe you're dangerously town requires them to have or at least actively be

aware

of the townreads on your slot and have a focus on them.

The players who had you as scum or null wouldn't have a focus on the townreads for your slot.

The players who had you as town would.

It's possible for scum to be outside.
It's impossible for

all

scum to be outside.

A Norwee kill requires at least one scum (and likely at least half the scum) seeing the townreads on Norwee, perceiving them as indicative of Norwee being largely townread, and deciding to kill Norwee.

Scum who had Norwee as null or scum aren't going to perceive Norwee as largely townread, given their own stance and the stance of half the players in the game was largely null.

Therefore, scum killing Norwee = at least some scum had Norwee as town.

[Ranger]

pedit: so you believe my reads on norwee and whemestar are equivalent because the trends from the early D1 to late D1 lead rists are about the same?

Both yes and no.

In the sense I tallied you as townreading both WhemeStar and Norwee, the answer is yes.

In the sense of had the same impact, the answer is no; the WhemeStar town vibe is actually stronger, despite WhemeStar being lower on the list.

[Ranger]

and even blatantly misremembering and creating new facts.

I'm not the one creating new facts, considering I proved there was in fact WhemeStar townvibes far stronger than Norwee townvibes.

I've also made what I feel is a fairly compelling argument.

In the event Norwee

was

killed, it indicates the few townreading Norwee certainly contain scum.

I've made my stance on who could be scum rather clear.

Klick can't be scum with Frogs; in the event Frogs is town, I'd think Klick scum.
Frogs, I've been rather clear about being scum.

TemporalLich, I believe town.
Peregrine, I believe town, and also believe wasn't truly among those thinking Norwee town (as the Norwee town callout was quite early).
Firebringer can be scum if scum didn't target Norwee, but if scum did, then Firebringer cannot be scum.

In short, for Norwee to have been the kill, it requires one of {Klick, Frogs} to be scum.

I believe it to be Frogs.

[Ranger]

Norwe pushed Theta. Forgot?

Does Theta Alpine strike you as a shotcaller for a scumteam?

I'm working under the assumption she isn't.

If Theta Alpine isn't the shotcaller for her team (my assumption), then the kill would need to be ordered by her teammates. (She likely carried it out regardless of successful protect or direct kill, given she's a goon.)

Theta Alpine's scumbuddies would need to believe their kill target was good for the team. Theta Alpine, as a goon, is presumably the most expendable member of the scumteam (barring some form of negative utility scumbuddy). As the most expendable member of the scumteam, a town player reading her right is less threatening than a town player reading any of her scumbuddies right.

Theta Alpine isn't a shotcaller.
Theta Alpine was expendable.

When you combine these, the kill scum made would be orchestrated by a scumbuddy. The scumbuddy would thus need reason for thinking the kill they were making benefitted the whole team, rather than just the most expendable member of the team.

I admit I took it for granted people would realize this.
Still, if you're going to think like scum, acknowledging it is important. Theta Alpine doesn't have the personality of a scumteam leader. Theta Alpine was a goon. Theta Alpine being threatened wasn't important due to Theta Alpine being expendable both in role and in team feedback.

If you agree on this, and you

should

(because I guarantee it's true), then Norwee having Theta as scum shouldn't be a deciding factor. It should be something else. The deciding factor would lie elsewhere.

If the deciding factor was respect of Norwee's skills, it'd need to be a player familiar with Norwee.
If the deciding factor was thinking Norwee was alarmingly townread, it'd need to be a player townreading Norwee.

If there's no additional deciding factor, then Norwee was likely not killed, and instead it was WhemeStar slain directly.

[Ranger]

Guess i’ll vote here since nobody cares about Emperor wagon.

I'll fully confess it's possible Emperor fits the profile for scum leaders who'd be threatened by Norwee.

I also saw Emperor's iso was fairly barren when I was looking for reads.

It's certainly possible Emperor flippyNips is scum, and Norwee was killed due to scumreads on both Flippy

and

Theta.

[Ranger]

I’m still not entirely sure i trust Frogs to be town but i wanna unvote and ISO these players when i get the time today. Since these are all players i don’t have a good grasp on RN.

I thought Frog’s reaction to my unvote seemed a bit townie, but then again scum!Alisae could probably fake it?
Then again, i think that ironically scum!Alisae might put in more effort into this game than what we are seeing here so maybe that slot really just is town.

These musings are enough I feel a scum-Alisae could fear Norwee. Norwee was certainly leaning town at day end, yet lacking conviction.

The slots Norwee was suspicious of were {Theta Alpine, Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}.
Norwee's stance on Frogs changed to the above, which I feel is something a scum-Alisae could perceive as a threat, yet Emperor flippyNips is the obvious standout.

If scum killed Norwee, then the pool would be a combination of the above with those townreading Norwee.
Since Firebringer targeted Norwee, he can't be scum who killed Norwee.

Thus, a pool of
{Klick, TemporalLich, Frogs, Peregrine, Emperor flippyNips}

Since I believe TemporalLich is town, and believe Klick/Frogs can't be scum together, that's a pool of
{Klick/Frogs, Peregrine, Emperor flippyNips}.

That grouping of three must contain scum if Norwee was killed.

[Ranger]

First Ranger was pushing that Norwee couldn't be the kill
And now Ranger is positing a worldview where Norwee was the kill and it must be myself or Frogs

As it turns out, I'm attempting to solve the game. When new evidence comes to light, it shifts my perspective.

I pushed Norwee couldn't be the kill because I believed evidence suggested he wouldn't be the kill.

I reviewed the evidence and discovered it wasn't as impossible as I'd been assuming.

My current stance isn't "Norwee was the kill".

My current stance is "Norwee could plausibly be the kill".

The kill was either directly on WhemeStar or on Norwee with WhemeStar saving Norwee.

I believed the former.

Now I'm less certain. Both worlds are possible.

Since the Norwee-kill-world I initially discarded as impossible, is now about as likely as a WhemeStar direct kill is, I need to analyze the game and form conclusions based on the scenario.

This also runs counter to the townread that Ranger has expressed on me that specifically doesn't change in the event that Frogs were to flip town

As it turns out, I'm attempting to solve the game. My thoughts have changed after seeing new evidence come to light.

In the world of Frogs-scum, you're conftown.

In the world of Frogs-town, you've nothing indicating your alignment either way.

I've previously been townreading you.
My review of evidence has placed my prior conclusion into doubt.

[Ranger]

NorwegianboyEE killed, WhemeStar saved:

{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer}
{Kitty Trauma Team, TemporalLich, Peregrine}
{Enchant}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}

WhemeStar directly killed:

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich}
{Enchant}
{Firebringer, Klick}
{NorwegianboyEE, Here There Be Dragons}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

I need to go to bed so this is where I'm leaving things.

I'm not finished with my analysis, regrettably; it'll need to wait until tomorrow.

[Ranger]

I have never seen this arrogant version of Ranger before, feels like it pained her to admit she might be somewhat wrong.

Well, I always want to be right.

Still, I'll fully admit when I'm wrong.

I was wrong to think Norwee wasn't townread at all. He was.
I was wrong to think Norwee couldn't be the kill. He could've been.
I was wrong in my assumption WhemeStar would've protected TemporalLich. He definitely protected Norwee.

However, I'll stand by things I'm

not

wrong about.

The evidence for Norwee being the kill isn't compelling. It

exists

, and is

plausible

; it's equally plausible WhemeStar was directly shot. I'm not wrong on this.

Yet, if we investigate under the world Norwee was the kill, it has implications.

If NorwegianboyEE was killed N1, it means the scum shotcaller viewed Norwee as a threat. This requires scum to believe something about Norwee is threatening, beyond just his Theta Alpine scumread. Theta Alpine, as a goon, was the most disposable member of the scumteam. She was expendable. Norwee threatening her doesn't make Norwee the top threat in the game. There's presumably four scum in the game. Every player has at least one player scumreading them. Whoever the scum shotcaller is, they likely would have at least one player who fingered them, no matter how briefly.
Ergo, Norwee would need to present a tangible threat beyond

just

Theta Alpine.

The possibilities of Norwee being a threat are, exactly, {Norwee was fingering more scum than just Theta Alpine, Norwee was killed because scum thought he was too town}.

If Norwee was killed for being too town, it means scum would need to be aware of the townreads. This indicates scum among those townreading him, because the Norwee townreads were invisible to those outside the group. Nobody except those townreading Norwee knew Norwee was being townread.

If Norwee was killed for fingering more scum than just Theta Alpine, the possible scum are {Frogs, Emperor flippyNips} as Norwee didn't finger any other players D1.

I'll maintain that as truth, because it is.

[Ranger]

Not sure what to make of it, but I am liking her less and less, didn't like the votes on her initially, but she definitely is sliding down my reads.

If you're interested, Doctor Drew

is

displaying blatant opportunism.

When I flip town, you should be ashamed of letting it slide because of your biases.

[Ranger]

In the back of my mind there are signs that make me think this could go wrong but I feel like I need the flip tbh so…

Well if the scum kill is disabled the scum certainly need a mislim today, so...

[Ranger]

I think Ranger would be highly competent no matter their alignment, but there is still some indisputably scummy things about the slot, such as the fact that they townread Theta yesterday and then acted like they actually scumread it very highly at the span of the night in next day when it was already been made confirmed dead scum.

Yeah because I investigated Theta Alpine last night.

You also seem to ignore how I initially had Theta Alpine as scum.

It wasn't as if I had her as town the entire game.

My original scumread on her which changed into a townread is part of

why

I investigated her last night.
I had her as scum, then changed to town; Students flipping town made me reconsider, come back to scum, and decide to check her.

[Ranger]

yeah... Ranger's distortion of thoughts makes Ranger an excellent lim

To what distorted thoughts do you refer?

[Ranger]

Scum are faking reads they are more aware of gamestate then everyone else because they are looking to see who is willing to shift to where and who in the town is actually townread by other townies.

Yes, scum fake reads.
Yes, scum are more aware of the gamestate.
For scum to be aware of Norwee being townread, they need to have had focus on it.

What would make scum focus on Norwee having townreads?

Plenty of players had multiple townreads of great strength. Klick for instance was near-universally topping towncharts yesterday.

What would make scum focus on

five

townreads on, of all players, Norwee?

They'd need to think Norwee's townreads were particularly threatening compared to townreads on other players.

There wasn't big talks of Norwee being town.

There wasn't an overwhelming majority thinking Norwee was town.

Only 1/3rd of the town had Norwee as town.

For Norwee's townreads to pose a threat in scum's perspective requires them to have been aware of those townreads on Norwee and have a warped perspective on them.

Objectively, Norwee wasn't overwhelmingly universally town.

For scum to

perceive

Norwee as overwhelmingly town requires scum to be among those townreading Norwee.

Let me word it simply;
Objectively, it's a fact only 1/3rd of the players townread Norwee.
Objectively, it's a fact Norwee being townread wasn't a focus of D1.

If Norwee was only townread by a small fraction of the playerlist,
And if Norwee wasn't the focus of D1,
What would make scum view Norwee being townread as a threat worthy of killing him?

The obvious answer is scum had a heightened awareness of Norwee compared to other players.
Who would have a heightened awareness of Norwee? The players having Norwee as null, or the players with a read on Norwee?

[Ranger]

Because I do not feel that Norwegian wasn't townread

I went through D1 to provide a tally.
Norwee was townread, but far from universally.
Norwee had a grand total of five players townreading him--yourself among them.

Five, of fifteen total. (14 aside from Norwee.)

Only 1/3rd of the game had Norwee as a townread.

That's certainly not insignificant!

Norwee was fairly townread. 5/15 is enough to warrant being called so.

The people who townread Norwee, however, consistently seem to believe Norwee was more townread than he actually was.

Again, Norwee was townread by only five players in total.

Far from a universal townread.

If Norwee was killed because scum believed he was widely townread, that means those five townreads stood out to scum disproportionately.

I've observed the people townreading Norwee all insisting Norwee was widely townread.
Yet the total players townreading Norwee was five. No more.

If Norwee was killed for being townread, the implication is the players insisting Norwee was widely townread, contain the players who submitted the kill.

[Ranger]

So, Ranger, I am asking you to please claim?

Getting to that.

I value providing what's likely final thoughts over providing a claim which won't sway the players already voting me.

[Ranger]

I am curious why you haven't voted Emperor yet!

I certainly will if there's momentum behind it.

I like my vote on Frogs because I believe Frogs is scum regardless; Emperor flippyNips is only hard-scum if Norwee was the nightkill.

because you have said quite a few times you think Frogs is mafia, but you do not seem interested either in pushing there to survive and continue to fight for your worldview!!

I'm not sure what gives you the impression I'm not pushing Frogs.

Alisae is a member of the Frogs hydra.

Every time I refer to Alisae/Frogs, it is demonstrating why I feel they're town.
I believe they're scum by setup.
I believe they're scum by play.
I believe they're scum by interactions with dead scum.

I believe they're scum regardless of whether Norwee was killed or WhemeStar was.

[Ranger]

yeah... Ranger's distortion of thoughts makes Ranger an excellent lim

To what distorted thoughts do you refer?

that entire bit about everyone townreading Whemestar and then explaining it away as everyone reading Whemestar as more towny late D1 is a good example of distorted thoughts

What's distorted about the truth?
There was vibes of WhemeStar being town--momentum indicated more players were thinking more favorably of him.
I've been quite consistent about this.
It's factual at the end of D1, players were seeing WhemeStar more favorably than earlier.
It's thus factual WhemeStar was on the upwards swing, being seen as more town than before.
I'm not the one distorting reality.
That's those who deny what was actually happening.

Yeah because I investigated Theta Alpine last night.

Paraphrasing a Role PM takes seconds; fabricating a fakeclaim takes an eternity.

I know my role; I've no need to stall to fakeclaim.

I've clearly not been communicating with the mod or talking in a PT. The length of time for posts is too short. I'm clearly not thinking about a claim. I'm giving too focused of thoughts to be developing a claim.

I claim on my terms--not yours.

My terms were providing my thoughts first, and claiming after I'd done so.

but yeah I'm okay with a Ranger lim considering I only see a strange softclaim when Ranger is pretty much at E-1 with intent

I made my intent to fullclaim clear.

I'm a 2-shot universal backup.

When Students died, I gained one use of their gunsmith role, and I gunsmithed Theta Alpine.

When WhemeStar died, I gained one use of his role. As the scum kill is apparently blocked tonight, my plan was always to holster N2 and use it N3. With it claimed, I lose the value behind it. Still, I lose the value behind it if eliminated before I could use it.

And yes, I did breadcrumb.

[Ranger]

Sorry, I meant Emperor! I am aware that you are pushing Frogs! And would be rather silly to not be aware!!

My Emperor read is underdeveloped.

The entirety of the Emperor scumread is:
Norwee scumread Emperor;
If Norwee was killed, it means Emperor is more likely scum;
Emperor's iso is fairly devoid of content.

All of this is things I discovered late last night.

I've not had time to process and think of it.

Given time, I'd love to investigate Emperor's content more thoroughly. I've not had the chance.

For Frogs, I have.

Thus, I'd vote Emperor if momentum was there; lacking it, I prefer Frogs.

[Ranger]

I'm a 2-shot universal backup.

When Students died, I gained one use of their gunsmith role, and I gunsmithed Theta Alpine.

When WhemeStar died, I gained one use of his role. As the scum kill is apparently blocked tonight, my plan was always to holster N2 and use it N3. With it claimed, I lose the value behind it. Still, I lose the value behind it if eliminated before I could use it.

And yes, I did breadcrumb.

Receipts;

I'm glad Theta died; dead scum N1 >

dead scum D2

.

I'm miffed Theta died; had she not,

I'd be voting her today

.

Once students flipped town,

I checked

for which townread was wrong, and

I landed on Theta

.

It's good I was right, but

annoying my effort was wasted

.

Even tho I don't really understand why you are miffed. I think it's a good thing that you got confirmation of your scum read.

It’s

good

, I'm just miffed it meant

my efforts last night were wasted

. I came into today believing

I'd be making a big reveal of Theta being scum

. Oh well!

Important;

Whemestar bodyguarded someone from mafia kill. Because they were targeted instead, Disabler kicked in. Therefore mafia can't kill anyone next night.

While I'm not certain it works this way,

if

it does,

WE ARE A ONE SHOT VIG / ONE SHOT TRACKER

Ideal play would be

holstering any protection/tracking/watching actions with gates

.

Do you have any way to confirm this.

I've no need to confirm what I know is true.
So, Theta Alpine was

my top pick for scum last night

.

The investigation on Theta Alpine, as well as me now having WhemeStar's role, are both rather clear.

[Ranger]

Can you clarify how your role works? I am sorry if this is a silly question!

I inherit one use of the first two PRs of my alignment to die.

Students died D1, and was the first PR of my alignment to die, so I inherited a use of their split gunsmith.

WhemeStar died N1, and was the second PR of my alignment to die, so I inherited a use of his Privateer.

[Ranger]

I still think Ranger is intent on controlling the town

Not exactly.

I'm intent on not letting scum control the game.

I believe the push on me is backed largely by scum, with the aid of town unwilling to accept my worldview is valid.

I'd let town not being pocketed by a top scumread of mine, lead on a player I don't strongly know/believe is town.

Since the current major wagon is on the one player I know is town, backed by my top scumreads, I'm disinclined to let them have their way.

[Ranger]

now I'm pretty sure you are intent on controlling the town

Well believe what you like.

I happen to know your beliefs aren't correct, given they have me as scum.

I like where I'll stand in postgame a lot more.

[Ranger]

I figured I should also share this.
It

should

be obvious to everyone, but my trust in other players to know the obvious is at an all-time low, so I don't trust you to have figured it out.

Obviously, I'm not in a neighborhood, despite how WhemeStar was. Neighborhoods aren't considered part of the base role, and I inherited the base role.

[Ranger]

congrats for proving you fakeclaimed a trivially confirmable role

Well it's not a fakeclaim.

The evidence is there.

I did investigate Theta Alpine last night.

I do have WhemeStar's protective role.

I clearly was playing this way.

My annoyance at Theta Alpine being killed N1 was because I would've become conftown D2 by leading a scum elimination on her.
I clearly indicated intent to holster on my protective tonight.

Had I gone unclaimed, I would've breadcrumbed my N3 target on D3.

I had strong reason to not wish to claim.

The easiest way to avoid claiming would be to convince people the wagon on me is nonsense.

Which it is.

After I flip town, you'll see it as so.

And I won't be the one living with the shame after. That lies squarely with those who refuse to accept I maybe,

maybe

, have good points.

[Ranger]

if anyone can hammer Ranger, please do so

Imagine being so blinded by the idea of me being scum you refuse to accept I have perhaps made good arguments and come from a perspective where I know what I'm talking about.

Every solve proposed by the likes of Frogs, Klick, and Norwee relies on players being scum which contain at least one player I know isn't.

I've been ignored when I laid out what caused my read on Theta Alpine to shift, causing me to investigate her.
I've been ignored in my reason for believing Frogs' role is a scum role.
I've been called crazy for stating WhemeStar's momentum was moving towards town, despite this objectively being true.
I've been called crazy for stating Norwee wasn't widely townread, despite Norwee having only five townreads, making this objectively true.
I've been called crazy for inferring from the above any scum killing Norwee would have viewed him as a threat.

I've been ignored when I laid out the interactions suggesting Frogs is scum with Theta Alpine.

Those are actions you will realize when I flip town, you and you alone are responsible for. Not I.

[Ranger]

i don't particularly get why we're doing this

Because I'm a threat to scum by having fingered Frogs. That's why.

[Ranger]

NorwegianboyEE killed, WhemeStar saved:

{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, Kitty Trauma Team}
{TemporalLich, Peregrine, Enchant}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}

WhemeStar directly killed:

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich, Enchant}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

The Norwee-killed list I'm happy with. The WhemeStar-killed list, less so.

[Ranger]

except you won't flip town because this isn't a bastard game and death godfather is not a possible role

It sure isn't which is why I'll be smugly watching you eat these words after I flip town.

[Ranger]

NorwegianboyEE killed, WhemeStar saved:

{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, Kitty Trauma Team}
{TemporalLich, Peregrine, Enchant}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}

WhemeStar directly killed:

{Kitty Trauma Team}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich, Enchant}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs}

The Norwee-killed list I'm happy with. The WhemeStar-killed list, less so.

I'm becoming more comfortable with both Peregrine-town and Dragons-town. I believe Peregrine raised a good point about Dragons' play today.

Klick can't be scum with Frogs, yet can still be scum if Frogs is town. I'm not sure where Klick belongs on the list for sure.

Firebringer I've thought town, yet there's evidence I saw which made me think possible scum.
Norwee has evidence suggesting he could be scum if WhemeStar was directly killed, but has evidence which indicates he may be town regardless of who the kill was last night.

I don't think I can do better than this without extensive digging.

[Ranger]

Ranger's explanation for her UB claim sounds like scum trying to explain a fakeclaim when under pressure (E-1 with intent)

Well, that's your opinion.

The fact is, I intended to claim in my way, on my time.

I was hoping to avoid claiming--when it became evident I had to, I knew the moment I did, there'd be nothing left holding people back from hammering. Since I had thoughts to share, providing those thoughts took priority over my claim, particularly given my flip will contain my claim regardless.

There's not much point in providing a claim if there's going to be a hammer regardless.

There is point in providing reads, reasons, and stances if there's going to be a hammer regardless.

The evidence I didn't make it up on the spot is there.
The evidence I had breadcrumbed my actions and my intent is there.

To say otherwise is to be delusional. Which you'll be forced to face after I flip town.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Emperor flippyNips

I realize there's more to reply to. I'll get to it within 16 hours.

[Ranger]

@Ranger is your role counts as Variant role?

No, it does not.

I'm hesitant on Ranger too but I like the wagon composition so far and how it formed

The game will go a lot better for people when they realize not all of {Frogs, Doctor Drew, Klick, NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, TemporalLich} are town.

I think running a lawn mower through Rangers -> Dragons -> Flippy probably is a winning line

It sure is for the scum.

[Ranger]

On a side note, I did get a chuckle out of Ranger saying she would be back in 16 hours, what an oddly specific period of time to state you will be back lol.

I know my schedule.

[Ranger]

enchant did the same thing in demon slayer of just not using his vote.

Glad you mentioned Demon Slayer.

I wonder what this game has in common with that one?

[Ranger]

Btw, we now live in a world where the arguments is that Wheme protected me from kill by Theta. Kitty vigged Theta, and Ranger gunsmithed Theta?

Apparently.

[Ranger]

I also want to reduce scum influence so that the lim isn't specifically guided towards the town in that group

If you really want to eliminate scum influence, might I suggest to stop blindly trusting all of {Frogs, Doctor Drew, NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, TemporalLich} to be town?

[Ranger]

If someone wants me interested outside of {Ranger, flippy, Dragons} they are going to need to put in some effort to make that case

I made my effort.
You discarded it.

I've made what I feel is a fairly compelling case.

NorwegianboyEE had a grand total of five townreads yesterday.
Those five who had Norwee as town seemed to be under the impression he was widely townread.
If Norwee was killed N1, the scum had reason to believe he was the best N1 kill.
Theta Alpine was a mafia goon. She was the most expendable member of the scumteam. Town players have surely fingered other scum on D1. Norwee's scumread on Theta Alpine isn't enough to warrant him being the nightkill N1.

If Norwee was the kill N1, then per the above, it implies either Norwee was right about more than one scumread (guaranteed scum in {Frogs, Emperor flippyNips} as those were the only pushes he made outside Theta Alpine), or it implies the players who thought Norwee was widely townread contain scum ({Firebringer, Peregrine, Frogs, TemporalLich, Klick}, removing Firebringer because Firebringer targeted Norwee with a non-killing action). I should remind you the idea of Norwee being the nightkill originated from Frogs, before Firebringer revealed he was redirected after targeting Norwee.

I've also laid out fairly compelling mechanical reasons for Frogs to be scum.
We have a 4x Split Gunsmith.
We have WhemeStar's role, acting as a 2x rolestop-elite bodyguard combo, which roleblocks the action the following night.
We have Kitty Trauma Team, a 1x vig 1x tracker.
And I can back them up if they die.

That's an easy ability to snowball.
The vig can kill scum.
WhemeStar can kill scum.
The gunsmith can guilty scum.

Scum so far have a flipped goon.

To prevent an overwhelming advantage, it feels scum need a blocking action of some kind.

Frogs claimed a blocking action on Klick (jailing neighborizer).

This adds another extra layer of power to the town if town.

It fills the niche of scum roleblocker perfectly if scum.

You're not interested in this because you think Alisae is playing in a way you think is town.
I've still made points objectively good, which you rejected off of subjective belief I couldn't be right.

[Ranger]

Like the 'I am solving the game.'

I sure feel confident I've done more solving of the game than you have.

[Ranger]

Let's say, "town found each other and curbstomping mafs" are so good, it's probably not true.

Precisely.

{Frogs, Doctor Drew, NorwegianboyEE, Klick, Firebringer, TemporalLich} isn't all town.

Firebringer's town

if

Norwee was killed.
Norwee's town

if

Norwee was killed.
TemporalLich has interactions strongly indicating he's not scum with Theta Alpine.

Frogs and Klick aren't scum together, yet still individually can be.

Which means 1-2 scum in {Frogs, Doctor Drew, Klick}.

[Ranger]

the townreads on you are not sufficiently founded

Well they aren't.

The townreads on Frogs are "Alisae is posting a lot, I think that's town".
The arguments differ. Casual posting a lot for you.
Appearing to be solving for others.
Yet it truly is based primarily on Alisae being active and controlling.

I've a different experience for what that implies of Alisae's alignment.

[Ranger]

What if everyone else are just so good on the game and only i am so stubborn

What if ur the only good one at this game in this game

Well he seems to be one of the only ones to not believe {Ranger, Here There Be Dragons, Emperor flippyNips} contains 2-3 scum.

That places him above half the playerlist in competency in my eyes.

[Ranger]

The game will go a lot better for people when they realize not all of {Frogs, Doctor Drew, Klick, NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, TemporalLich} are town.

who is this statement even for

I didn't have a target audience.
I just like snarking when wagoned as town.

[Ranger]

enchant did the same thing in demon slayer of just not using his vote.

Glad you mentioned Demon Slayer.

I wonder what this game has in common with that one?

Ali is in a hydra where she does most of the posting?

And has a largely absent partner, and is in control of the game, and is pushing slots I know contain scum as the correct solve.

For a start.

Myself among them.

There's consistent statements of wanting the day to just end.

Sound familiar?

It does to me.

[Ranger]

and is pushing slots I know contain scum as the correct solve.

Well that's an awkward typo.
I think it's obvious I meant "is pushing slots I know contain town", i.e., myself.

[Ranger]

So literally what I just said about Ali is your basis of the scum read on them?

Basis? No.
Contributing factor? Yes.

I've thought Frogs' play reminiscent of Alisae's play in Demon Slayer for a while.

The main factors behind the scumread:
SirCakez's absence from the game and content appearing scum;
Frogs was placed to L-1 on D1, never claimed, the wagon fell apart, and instantly the Students wagon replaced it literally overnight;
Frogs-Theta Alpine interactions are overall +scum for Frogs;
Frogs' roleclaim is literally a scum role especially in the setup we have confirmed already;
If Norwee was the nightkill, Frogs was one of the slots Norwee was pushing D1;
If Norwee was the nightkill, Frogs was one of only five players to consider Norwee widely town. NorwegianboyEE has been considered widely town by those who consider him town, yet objectively, he was only read as so by a fraction of the playerlist, so if Norwee was killed, it implies the scumteam killing him were among those who thought he was widely townread;
Frogs' activity picked up sharply after I started pushing hard against the slot;
The aforementioned resemblance to Demon Slayer.

[Ranger]

I think running a lawn mower through Rangers -> Dragons -> Flippy probably is a winning line

It sure is for the scum.

This is someone who was making a point of claiming ambivalence towards both Dragons and flippyNips about a dozen pages ago

And they remain so.

The order starting with the player I happen to know is both town and has access to an incredibly powerful town PR means if the combo contains scum, the order starting with me is a win for scum.

Placing the player most likely to be scum as last in the combo is, in of itself, suspect.

Dragons could be scum; I'm currently not convinced they are.
Emperor flippyNips is likely scum; having him last means scum are the last to go down.

[Ranger]

This is me explicitly not getting into a back and forth correcting moonlogic with Ranger

You're the one not addressing valid logic.

What's moonlogicky about basic deductions?

It's a fact NorwegianboyEE got only 5 townreads yesterday.
It's a fact WhemeStar targeted NorwegianboyEE.
It's a fact if scum killed Norwee, they believed he was the best kill N1 out of all of the players in the game.

It's a fact players have, repeatedly, stated "Norwee was widely townread yesterday".
It's a fact those players were among the players townreading NorwegianboyEE yesterday.
It's a fact those players are also treating the Norwee kill as a fact. They are taking it for granted Norwee

must

have been the kill.

It's a fact a common trait for scum is to kill a player who suspects multiple scum;
It's a fact Norwee's pushes D3 were {Theta Alpine, Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}.

It's a fact a common trait for scum is to kill a player widely townread;
It's a fact if scum killed Norwee for this reason, they believed Norwee was widely townread.

It's a fact scum roleblockers are a common scum role.
It's a fact a common answer to a town containing {Gunsmith, tracker, vig, protective} is a scum roleblocker.
It's a fact scum would need an

extraordinarily

high level of power if {4x Gunsmith, 1x Tracker, 1x Vig, 2x Protective, 2x UB, Frogs'-role} were

all

town.
It's a fact scum have no such power flipped. Theta Alpine was a goon; if Emperor flippyNips is scum, his role is also weak.

The basic logical deduction from these facts is Frogs is likely scum.

[Ranger]

flippyNips made one pop-in and activated their Superstar but didn't really do anything of actual substance

Yes. I believe that's +scum for him. I'm notably not unvoting the slot.

Don't be surprised if you see people in your townbloc do so. They shouldn't if they're actually town. I'm still expecting it.

[Ranger]

Frogs and Klick aren't scum together, yet still individually can be.

Last night, I had a thought about Klick, and how I've seen his play before and his play here seems irrational and stubborn compared to prior towngames in a way I feel suspect; he is far more tunneled and closed off than is typical of a town game.

This caused a revisit to the above.

Ultimately, I stand by it being most likely true.

I explored the possible worlds where both were scum, and none seemed likely.

In a 3x groupscum + traitor world, there would need to be traitor signaling D1. (Or Frogs is the traitor, knew the scum, and outright told Klick. In this world, a stark contrast in Klick's Frogs read between D1 and D2 is needed. Regardless, the improbability of this should be apparent.)
This would leave a visible trace. While I've not checked to confirm, I expect to find none.

It's possible if scum have no daychat yet the neighborhood does. As daychat's fairly universal, this is unlikely.

It's possible if Frogs can add players to the same neighborhood. Neighborizing scum N1 and town later sets up optics for pocketing the town. I'm under the assumption Frogs' neighborize action doesn’t work this way, leaving this not an option.

It's possible if Frogs is just lying. No neighborhood exists. Aliase lies as scum, but I don’t see how this would provide a tangible benefit.

It's possible if Frogs thought targeting Klick was optimal play, despite the loss of a tool likely designed for targeting town. As this requires scum believing it optimal play, I've doubts.

It's possible if Frogs' action is Loyal. Targeting a scumbuddy would be mandatory. As this requires a specific modifier unlikely to be present, this is rather unlikely. If Frogs did die, Klick would instantly follow.

So for full transparency, it's not impossible

per se

for them to be scum together.

However, I feel the improbability of each scenario makes it likely they aren’t scum together.

I still individually have scumreads on both; one cannot be correct.

Dealing with things today, so can't comment further until about 12 hours from now.

[Ranger]

flippyNips made one pop-in and activated their Superstar but didn't really do anything of actual substance

Yes. I believe that's +scum for him. I'm notably

not unvoting the slot

.

Don't be surprised if you see people in your townbloc do so

. They shouldn't if they're actually town. I'm still expecting it.

It's almost like the scum don't actually want the scum to die today.

[Ranger]

Ur voting one of those players lol

Yes.
{Ranger, Here There Be Dragons, Emperor flippyNips} contains 0-2 scum, rather than the 2-3 advertised.

I believe it has precisely one, Emperor flippyNips, and placing him last on the lim order and pivoting away from him onto the claimed TPR is +scum.

Not that you're actually interested in listening because why would Ranger ever be right?

I like my odds of being right a lot more than your odds right now.

[Ranger]

You using it as like "ohh yeah look his partner not here" like its actually a point in ur favor is so wrong.

Well it is a point in my favor. I don't recall claiming it a strong one. It's the weakest one in fact.

I wonder why you attack the weakest point I make rather than the strongest?

2) Ali literally pivoted from you to flippy. So the argument that ali only wants to end the day seems rather weak to me.

And pivoted right back on after Emperor flippyNips' role was revealed.

Almost as if scum knew Emperor flippyNips' role already, knew he could reveal it at any time, and knew after revealing it, people would be disincentivized to stay on the wagon, and return to the prior one no questions asked.

[Ranger]

Cause all u do is moonlogic and make up shit

This is the second time I've been accused of moonlogic.


Yet those who say it seem to use it to ignore valid arguments.

[Ranger]

But you’re arguing this in the least helpful.

Arguing?


I don't recall arguing in 2244.

I argue in 2269, 2268, 2267, 2260, 2252, 2250, 2247, 2235, 2147, 2146, 2132, 2130, 2127, 2123, 2120, 2116, 2115, 2086, 2085, 2084, 2082, 2079, 2068, 2065, 2060, first half of 2042, 2032, 1945, 1867, 1861, 1848, 1847, and 1842.

When what will ultimately prove to be fairly correct logic postgame got discarded, I stopped arguing with you.

2242 is snark.

You should learn the difference.

[Ranger]

Superstar Fruit Vendor should mean literally nothing for alignment here and any attempts at trying to make it mean something for flippy's alignment are fruitless

And yet the wagon on Emperor flippyNips fell apart in favor of a Ranger wagon resurgence.

I wonder why a nai claim which shouldn't have affected the Emperor wagon, did?

[Ranger]

Ranger thinks Klick is scum for some arcane reason...

Yeah. Meta. I've seen Klick's townplay before. It's not ever this wrongly stubborn.

This is either one of the worst games he's ever had, or he's not town.

[Ranger]

How is 2242 snark from TL?

Typo of 2244.

[Ranger]

Let's find out top townread and kill it because it's deep wolf

You jest, but apparently that'd be Frogs unironically.

[Ranger]

Superstar Fruit Vendor should mean literally nothing for alignment here and any attempts at trying to make it mean something for flippy's alignment are fruitless

And yet the wagon on Emperor flippyNips fell apart in favor of a Ranger wagon resurgence.
I wonder why a nai claim which shouldn't have affected the Emperor wagon, did?

ok this is bullshit

Is it now?

Vote Count 2.05

Emperor flippyNips [6]:

Enchant, Peregrine, Here There Be Dragons, NorwegianboyEE, Kitty Trauma Team, Ranger

Ranger [4]:

Klick, Firebringer, TemporalLich, Doctor Drew

VOTE: ranger
i'll be jailing dragons tonight

VOTE: Ranger

Emperor flippyNips didn't provide a single lick of game content in this time.

The only thing to happen was the reveal most said was nai.

Yet shortly after, the wagon received unvotes. Perhaps I knew what I was talking about when I said something earlier?

flippyNips made one pop-in and activated their Superstar but didn't really do anything of actual substance

Yes. I believe that's +scum for him. I'm notably

not unvoting the slot

.

Don't be surprised if you see people in your townbloc do so

. They shouldn't if they're actually town. I'm still expecting it.

It's almost like the scum don't actually want the scum to die today.

[Ranger]

NorwegianboyEE killed, WhemeStar saved:

{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, Kitty Trauma Team, Enchant}
{TemporalLich, Peregrine}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{Klick}
{Doctor Drew}
{Frogs, Emperor flippyNips}

WhemeStar directly killed:

{Kitty Trauma Team, Enchant}
{Peregrine, TemporalLich}
{Here There Be Dragons}
{NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer}
{Klick}
{Doctor Drew}
{Emperor flippyNips}
{Frogs}

[Ranger]

Ranger was right ecks dee

Eh, I can't come up with a snarky post right now so instead of snark you get honesty.

I got many things wrong.
Peregrine as town.
My top scumreads.
I never voted scum.

Nearly every prediction I made when dead ended up not coming true.

I certainly was right about some things.
I got my Doctor Drew read right because I used the exact same meta as Klick yet came to the opposite conclusion. (It genuinely baffles me how Klick accurately described Doctor Drew's scum meta and thought this game wasn't it.)
I was right I would've been conftown after massclaim, which I knew we wouldn't do on D2. (How would you have reacted to "I'm a VT, just a pure VT, I suspect I'm the only one in the game which massclaim would confirm" as a defense D2? I imagine rather poorly.)
I was right {Klick, Frogs, TemporalLich, NorwegianboyEE, Doctor Drew} wasn't all town.
I was right {Ranger, Emperor flippyNips, Here There Be Dragons} didn't have 2-3 scum and was 0-2, likely lower.

Still, I was no less wrong than any other player, despite my snark.

[Ranger]

Notably also;
I was right the town had too much power;
I was right the scum would've had a killstopper;

I still got the form of the killstopper wrong, as well as the answer to the town being so townsided wrong.

I was right Theta Alpine didn't call the shots, yet wrong she didn't contribute.

I never stated my TemporalLich-is-obviously-3p read publicly; had I, I would've gotten the form of it wrong. (I thought TemporalLich was a malevolent 3p, not a neutral-to-benign one.)

[Ranger]

I was pained by the fact that the day I died it was between me and drew and then the next day everyone forgot drew was scummy. I was screaming

Imagine how I felt after the consensus of Ranger-scum was proven wrong and then the solving continued without reassessment.

[Ranger]

But i am proud of drew.
Withholding hammer to look more town is always ++++ points in my book.

Yeah.

I don't think Drew deserves praise for the scumteam repeatedly making night actions which should've been bad and somehow being rewarded for them;

I don't think Drew deserves praise for his play being his scum meta, Klick accurately describing his scum meta, and somehow concluding Drew was town;

I

do

think Drew deserves credit for not clearing a player with his claim, the kills he made which went through, a clever claim, and making smart decisions on where and when to vote, including holding off on a hammer when not knowing what caused the kill to fail. Holding back until he knew the reason was always the correct call imo, even if it extended the game, and is worth praising.

[Ranger]

The interaction with me delaying the Mafia Doctor into saving Frogs on the night I delayed STD, creating a completely separate unknown explanation for there being no kill, is incredibly frustrating.

Perhaps it's my bias, but to me, it was the simplest option.

Who didn't know about your delay role?

{Frogs, Klick, NorwegianboyEE} all knew.

Only {Here There Be Dragons, Doctor Drew} didn't.

A no-kill you weren't expecting incriminating the uninformed should've logically condemned the uninformed. It wasn't Dragons, so the incriminating lack of kill would come from the only other source uninformed; Doctor Drew.

[Ranger]

Either i am too rude for this site, or players on this site are really not cut for irony.

For what it's worth, I appreciate you Enchant.

I'm also fond of irony and have a penchant for barbed remarks.

I enjoy your casual playstyle and how you focus more on fun than winning; it matches my casual tryhard approach.

Players reacting negatively when upset are valid (they don't like having the knife twisted). As long as you treat them with respect, apologize if you take things too far, and admit to any wrongdoings they are hurt by, you should be fine. Your own feelings are valid, and you've the right to express when you're upset, too.

It can be difficult to balance the two. Just do your best, and that's as much as can be asked. For some, it won't be enough; you can't change that. At least in my opinion though, you're not as bad as your reputation.

[Ranger]

My main breaking point was Enchant accusing me of AtE, which anyone who's played with me will tell you in a heartbeat that I don't like the shade from that.

It's not AtE to say you're in a bad place mentally and step aside for awhile, nor is it scummy.

It's a thing that happens, with me, at least, because I've been a part of this site a long, long time, and I feel extremely comfortable confiding in people on this site, even in games, about when things are going wrong or when I'm simply trying to avoid laying waste to everything with a shitty mood.

And I don't like it when people use that openness and honesty against me as a negative. It *infuriates* me, straight up, to be accused of appealing to emotion, or faking rage, because when you do that, in my mind, you're calling my vulnerability false. You're showing me why I should stay guarded in all aspects of life, including a site that I've been on for over fifteen years.

And I've seen it WAY too many times, both directed at me and directed at Mala in multiple games over the years.

It's a real real fucking shitty thing in my mind, and I take it personally. And again, that's a me thing, that's not anything anyone did intentionally.

That is certainly valid.

It bears noting there

are

players who have used real-life situations as scum to gain a noted advantage, using their circumstances as an excuse to avoid revealing alignment tells. ("Can't be in your town meta when scum" is nigh-indistinguishable from "can't be in your town meta when v/la".)

Still, those despicable players don't justify questioning rl situations as AtE. This community operates on a level of trust. To open up and explain rl things is part of the trust. Questioning the trust due to the players who've violated the trust, shouldn't be done.