TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Cerb666

[wgeurts]

Vote me you coward

[wgeurts]

Real talk though fellow cucumber, would be amazing if we were both town. But we both know full well that if you're scum it's also in your favour to suck up to me. I probably know your play the best in this game, so favourably swinging my opinion to leave you with less scrutiny is definitely in the realm of possibilities. Gonna have to earn your spot on my nice list.

[wgeurts]

I probably know your play the best in this game

Weird flex given afaik you've both been retired for at least as long as I have.

Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still stands :P

[wgeurts]

Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still stands

Do you think Cerbs would specifically try to pocket a rusty player, though?

Yes lol

Every Varsoon game somewhat faded in my memory still gives me that impression

[wgeurts]

The question about approach to solving the game WAS serious though, and a tongue-in-cheek way of saying: " Hey you person who I know has, in the past, been able to wring all sorts of alignment indicative bullshit out of what I view as meaningless noise, where do you recommend I direct my own unique brand of inquisition?"

Ppedit: Nope, done with this, gonna respond separately after I get back from buying the last few bits for my upcoming Coachella trip(btw yeah semi VLA probably from the 18th through 25th, but we shall see what activity I can get in)

Jingle lightly town for trying to actively sort me and his initial stance on the doublevoting. Discussion regarding the powerup mechanic is wholly non-indicative, and really doesn't need further commentary as it only serves as a distraction from productive talk until we get clarification from the mod.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: jingle

This is interesting though, cus out of literally anyone in the game as far as reads can go, Jingle isn't it.

[wgeurts]

Stop sheeping LLD, peta. She can't read me.

nervous energy detected

I have no idea who you are, but is this serious or not?

[wgeurts]

I'm currently null on everyone at the moment.

Thoughts on the interactions between me, Jingle, Cerb and Peta? Fine to have null reads, but you're going to need to elaborate why you have null reads.

[wgeurts]

The Fire Flower functions as a single double vote - it can be moved around but it cannot be split. The player with the power up may also choose to single vote like normal.

Yeah, in this case definitely not worth actually using. RIP D1 hero solve victory chances

We should still probably give it to

someone

, right?

No.

[wgeurts]

i'm not sure i see the wgeurts read but it's

interesting

Boutta make it even more interesting!

[wgeurts]

{Peta, Jingle}
{Radical Rat, CSF}
{Adorable, Cerb, Fate, Porkens}
{HPE}

Alright, reread the game so far and bounced numerous ideas with my teammates. My current pulse of the board state is that at most one of Jingle/Peta can be scum, and the rest if not both fall in the bottom 5 reads of mine. Their tango so far would be an amazing yet unlikely opening act considering this is a 2-man scum team game, and would have been entirely unsolicited considering for the majority of it almost half the players were not contributing anything of substance. I lean to calling them both town, and find it more likely that the scum are currently in the lower brackets. Coincidently, that would also make this game incredibly boring if so.

I am not an outstanding scum-hunter, I town hunt and try to place myself in each players head. Bare with me for why my reads are as follows.

Peta

I will admit I personally did not like how they opened up this game but warmed up to this read after bouncing ideas with Xof who has a significantly better impressions of them than I do. Their initial vote and elaboration on Jingle left a poor impression, but I've been told that their keeping cards close to their chest until ready is par for their course, and will be a butt to read until substance does start rolling out. This aligns with what Peta says about themselves in 97.

What I have liked since though, is their interactions with Jingle to gauge them into backing off, and their recent switch to HBE which I'll get to later alongside their other reads. During my catch-up I found myself forming seemingly similar impression of Porken's and HBE. These two weren't hot topic, he initiated reads rather than following others, and his thought process flows naturally. That's all I can really ask for at this stage of the game.

Jingle

Jingle off the bat trying to take double voter discussion off the table in 14 started light town leanings, I agree with the sentiment. Discussion of the mechanic is and was complete white noise with nothing of use to come of it. His following interactions with me from 27 onwards also appear as genuine to probe, although I believe his concerns stem from a misunderstanding I'll get to in a later post. This has remained consistent through to now as evidenced in post 91 for instance. Similarly to Peta, proactive substance rich posting that displays apparent intent to sort players that I can understand and visualise consistently, is as good as I'm gonna get for a town read for now.

Radical Rat

RR is giving me nonchalant, slightly mislead, town leaning vibes as off now. Their first two posts at their worst can be read as mechanics fluffing to appear useful, with only scum having anything to gain from that. I doubt that to be the case however as they remain hung on the issue through to post 54 where interactions with Jingle relating to the matter for the basis for a shoddy vote. Seems a little dissonant from a scum perspective imo. More telling however is that I can follow their train of thought from a town perspective. Their unvote in post 79 is consistent with my view of the game at the time, and his (team's) town reads/push on CSF just don't make lots of sense for scum at the moment. His quite intense reads are a bit far-fetched, but they come across as genuine and don't appear to be artificially crafted.

CSF

CSF hasn't provided much content, nor much elaboration, but from the little substance they have provided I can see a town intent. Their vote change to Cerb in 82 and explained in 88 is a bit of stretch considering the timeframe Cerb made his few posts in, but is such a poor option to randomly go for as scum there. It's questionable, stands out, nobody will follow, just not a good take to make as scum. Paired with them indicating a town read of RR in the same posts, which I can agree with, leads me to lightly lean town on this slot myself.

Porkens

Coming in to say that they don't place much stock in early game reads in post 106 and then providing nothing of substance thereafter means I have nothing to really go off really. First had a slight town lean on them as I liked them indicating a Peta town lean in 107 which matched my view, and I could see possible thought process behind 111 leaning scum on Jingle despite disagreeing. But the post made before 107 that very same minute says that they hadn't read the game yet, which eliminates any substance there. Similarly anything of substance regarding his interaction with Jingle is dismissed in post 116. Unsure why people are town leaning here, or is it because of the above too?

Adorable

Adorable is gonna be a pain for me to sort as I didn't like any of their posting at first, with them going from stating they have no reads in post 40, to posting a whole bunch of no substance burger like in 47 and 48 etc. After consulting Xof, apparently this is just how they play and is consistent with a town game they played. Like... post 109 doesn't even make sense? I'd think it self-evident Cerb isn't town piling me there and how can you then use that as the basis for anything? This slot is going to be a headache for me to gauge.

If anything, of note is that they mentioned the double voting mechanic twice in 30 and 67. I'm interested why they were so focused on it?

Cerb

I have absolutely no lean here so far, as I need to see actual substance. I do have to say that the thought has crossed my mind that the low activity from Cerb here could be indicative of low motivation, due to a higher barrier of play. Cerb was in the past as I remember very analytical and methodical in his play, to do so as Scum knowing there's eyes on it takes more energy. It would make sense that a scum Cerb would be less willing to jump in with coachella upcoming than town cerb. This is very much a stretch however, and likely unfair. Not willing to place stock in it, but need to see Cerb in action when he's properly around.

Fate

Hasn't shown up yet.

HPE

The reason why I like Peta so much, as I don't like this slot, and I do like the timing of Peta's vote. Let's break it down:

This slot just keeps popping up, indicating activity and that it's following the game, yet never posts anything of substance. It's all comes across as for show, suspiciously like they want to appear useful but are hesitant to commit to anything that could complicate matters.

Posts 46, 50 and 51 see it making remarks that give the impression of being involved whilst when dissected, yield no concrete or substantive information as to their current thoughts. 73 and 89 are both for instance, just more nothing burger. Most, if not all the others around then, are more of the same. Peta evidently beat me to it regarding applying pressure, which I liked. Around the time I formed these thoughts in the thread his vote popped up out of nowhere.

I also really don't like post 122 in response to said vote, it is just more empty questioning without providing anything of substance. To then followup with that by criticising Jingle for not having reliable reads in 124 having not provided any themselves, to then LITERALLY in 135 stating they don't have them either whilst just calling a followup wagon vote sheep, is not a good look. I struggle to picture town intent here at this stage of the game, and that makes them my best option to vote right now.

A sidenote, to add here again, is that they too are weirdly obsessed with the double vote but even moreso than Adorable. Posts 15, 60 and 64 all come back to it.

[post=HPE]HPE[/post]

[wgeurts]

VOTE: HBE

I fucked that lol

[wgeurts]

Also to add, HBE has been actively present all game so it's not that they're not invested. The response to Peta's vote was almost immediate and they've been rather frantic since.

[wgeurts]

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

I think if you look at it wogurts actually looks far worse in those interactions. 22 kind of implies wgeurts has the impression of being buddied, but there's no real follow up. It's very much a "look, I'm paranoid of you!" post, but I don't actually see any real paranoia. cerb otoh looks like someone who is reaching out for engagement.

As far as other posts by wgeurtz I disliked, the pressing of Adorable this early is NAGL and the defence of me/undermining peta's push raised my brows.

As promised, getting to this.

I don't genuinely think Cerb was scum-buddying with me, prior to the game starting we were already excited to have the opportunity to play again and have some mafia history together. His post largely read as jest, and I responded with some pomp in turn. By itself, that post is entirely NAI. I am not paranoid of Cerb to put it simply, I'm playing along with them. ^^

[wgeurts]

I’m asking more philosophically, not directly at you. Do people in general ever have reliable reads on page 5?

Haven’t even read the game btw

I think that’s fucking correct. And so are you.

These two posts were posted in the same minute. You cannot convince me that was a substantive town read at the time, unless your prior statement wasn't wholly accurate. I would like to know where you currently stand on people right now though?

[wgeurts]

Like literally you say I’ve contributed nothing but I e literally founded the townblock with petapan.

No it was a substantive townread and inspiration to lockdown until endgame.

Why is he town?

How did you have a town read on him when you literally state "you hadn't read the game" and question if people ever have substantive reads at that point? Those two statements cannot both hold true, unless you're capable of reading the game in less than a minute in which case kudos to you lol

[wgeurts]

It was instantaneous

So just gut?

[wgeurts]

Jeeze Louise of course just gut I haven’t read the game

Then what is the big issue with me saying I have nothing to go off? If you've not read the game then your input is largely useless to me. I'm not here to play vibe check simulator.

Also bruh, the game is 6 pages long. I've read it all twice in just a day. If you've got time to disagree with me not having an opinion on you, spend it productively and give me something instead.

[wgeurts]

Need to go shopping for an actual scumread or two soon, this one thinks.

I don't like this quote either, this was one of the posts made as I was writing, but yuck

[wgeurts]

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

[wgeurts]

Sounds legit FOS wgeurts

And I don't have the patience to deal with you right now

[wgeurts]

Spoiler: This isn't actually about the game and normally I don't like to make a show of it, but it hit me particularly hard this time for some reason so... gender shit I guess, primarily @wgeurts

I don't mean this to sound accusatory, and obviously you're they/them too, so you get it to an extent, but. Genuine curiosity. Why was I referred to with he/him that whole time? I understand people mess up, and I do too, but it seems like it's been happening a lot to me lately (not just from you), and I don't really understand why, especially in this case where others on your list did get different pronouns assumed. Do I really give off masculine vibes so strongly?

I don't know, you don't really have to answer or apologize or anything if you don't want to I just. Feel kinda weird about it I guess. Usually better about letting it roll off, sorry.

Before I get into things, major apologies here, won't happen again. Was late at night and I definitely misread before writing up my post using my notes. You really don't! I just thought to have seen it listed T.T

[wgeurts]

Yeah, this one figured a game full of people its not played with wouldn't have a picture of it's playstyle. People have told this one before that taking a more passive backrow approach is par for the course for it, and it wants to agree? This one obviously isn't the best judge of it's own meta because it isn't always conscious of how it's actually, y'know, playing and acting, but still, this feels like a big clash of playstyle, albeit...*

But other than that:
It's obviously up to the individual's interpretation of how cool and good a post actually is in terms of solviness, but this one doesn't really think you could call

everything

you've linked as providing

nothing

of substance, especially when you go and try to call me asking someone why they're voting me as "empty questioning". And what's up with trying to recontextualize 124/135? Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads, and this one saying it doesn't have reads at the moment. And "weirdly obsessed with the double vote" feels like a grasping at straws, to be honest. *...this also feels like a really uncharitable analysis of me either way.

Alright, so as I said before: passively playing the game is different to continuously engaging with it but providing little to no insight as to what's going on in your head. Asking for another's thoughts on something by itself doesn't tend to mean much if that's all you do, I want to know what you think of the person you're questioning, what their answer does for that, and see an active progression that aligns with town intent. And you are correct in that this is an uncharitable analysis, we're 7 pages into the game and to me your posting currently makes less sense coming from a town-motivated mindset than scum.

You're right on the point with Jingle though, I misinterpreted that whilst writing up the wall o' text and seeing more stuff being posted. That doesn't impact much however, as the crux of my issue remains that until now I've not seen you posting anything you could be held accountable for.

[wgeurts]

Wgeurts, if you'll indulge my curiosity, how much of that reads wall was from you, and how much was workshopped by your team?

Peta I requested people help me look at as with the current gamestate sorting those two is most valuable. I also got given information on Adorable as I don't know how to deal with that slot, and neither does my team it seems. Everything else is purely my own thoughts.

[wgeurts]

Also got some commentary on Jingle from Xof.

[wgeurts]

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

Most? Probably petapan, as they've been putting up a pretty good solving effort imo after some ISO reviewing, especially 90/97, or really just their posts related to Jingle in general.

Least? You, honestly. Other than the obvious, 42 is just a touch odd in the way it asks for people to elaborate on why they might have nullreads at a staggering 42 posts in, and this isn't exactly a 'gotcha' or anything, but you seemed to have taken a far lighter stance on power-up talk in 35 which you've since reversed both in talking about Jingle and about me. This one thinks it'll park a semi-OMGUS mostly-scumread VOTE: wgeurts on you because it just really feels like you're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill on me.

Leaning on people for minor things in the early stages of a game when you have little to go off is exactly how you get responses that can be used for more. No it's not a gotcha kinda of thing. I disagree that there was no content already. My interactions with Jingle for instance were already something of minor substance prior to 42, I saw something in them, if you don't I want to know why not.

I do not follow your second line of reasoning, my stance regarding mechanics talk was and is that it's complete fluff and of no use to town here, as stated in the post you quote. Jingle swinging in page one to essentially state that as first player is very weakly town-like behaviour. Players trying to push for talk on the doublevote can be interpreted as mildly scum-like behaviour. Analysing how people act around it is not mechanics talk, it's analysing people's reactions and intent towards it.

[wgeurts]

You said me, HPE, and Porkens have posted little of no substance. It is early day 1 and there will always be players posting little of no substance no matter what alignment they are. I actively play mafia elsewhere and a majority of the players over there post little of no substance and because of this I don't understand why you are making a big deal about this.

You have a very unusual playstyle that will be hard for me to read.

As a quick note, please snip out the wall of text if you're quoting it heh, or spoiler it.

Out of curiosity, where do you play mafia outside of MS? I strongly disagree that there is nothing of substance in Day 1, it is far more speculative yes, but people's attitude towards a game can always be gauged no matter the stage. Do you disagree?

[wgeurts]

I don't genuinely think Cerb was scum-buddying with me, prior to the game starting we were already excited to have the opportunity to play again and have some mafia history together. His post largely read as jest, and I responded with some pomp in turn. By itself, that post is entirely NAI. I am not paranoid of Cerb to put it simply, I'm playing along with them. ^^

This isn’t really an explanation of why what you did but an admission that it is what I was seeing. It also doesn’t really shake the feeling I got that your response was intended to make cerbs look worse.

I guess the question remains: what do you intend to do now to response to the reach out/establish a better groundwork to work with cerbs, and why haven’t you been doing it til now.

It's hard to reach out to cerb when he's not currently in the game, when he's actually here I'll more than happily bounce off them.

On a side note, what do you make of Porkens?

[wgeurts]

Also got some commentary on Jingle from Xof.

Did they scumslip?

To paraphrase what was said, Xof, my teammate, told me they'd just wrapped up a game with you and that your behaviour is notedly different enough from your scum play which you were in that game. They noted they can usually tell how you approach a game with mechanics, and that you'd be more suspect had you given more strongly felt reads so far.

[wgeurts]

Lockscum

kids these days


doesn't nearly have a good a ring as confscum

Now.

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

That seems like a sketchy refusal to elaborate considering we only know for sure you've seen pages 1 and 2.

HPE, if you're town, instead of hunkering down on why people are voting you tell me who you think we should be voting instead.

[wgeurts]

The reason I ask is that while nothing in particular stands out as objectionable on its own, having such a comprehensive wall of opinions about every player (except Fate of course) so early on feels somewhat incredulous. Particularly it feels strange that you point out my reads as being too strong, even though I only actually have one read I'd consider to be anything more than a lean (CSF), inside of a wall post filled with nuanced opinions on everyone.

Just feels kinda like you felt obligated to have thoughts on everyone instead of them flowing naturally

You evidently never had the pleasure of playing with me when I was active. That's how I play the game, I've got a spreadsheet I note people's thought progressions, votes, and go back to once people start flipping so I can find associative-tells and patterns. Cerb at minimum can vouch, that's just how I roll.

As for your reads, strength is relative to the timeframe of the game, early on a relatively intense lean can be pretty strong. Your progression on Jingle is acceptably town-minded, your reasons for disliking CSF are sufficiently far-flung that in the given boardstate it just doesn't seem like something scum would do right then. The way you post isn't with hesitancy either, you just slap CSF with your vote and accuse him, that's what I mean by strong, intensity may be a better alternative.

[wgeurts]

without hesitancy*

[wgeurts]

wait no I did write that correctly, you're not hesitant xd

[wgeurts]

Also, Cerb, read this post of Adorable and the following by my teammate Xof thereafter from Team Mafia 2021. Adorable rolled Town there, this is just how they play, and an example of why I personally am going to have a headache sorting said slot.

viewtopic.php?p=12643916#p12643916

[wgeurts]

I'm checking in and getting ready for a meeting and I haven't read everything from where I left off.

When I first saw wgeurts reads list with long explanations it bothered me because it came way too soon early in day 1 and it didn't show paranoia. What stopped me from voting wgeurts is xofelf informing wgeurts about my playstyle and I started wondering if wgeurts is scum I have been thinking xofelf would not inform them about my playstyle.

As a sidenote, I'm going to openly say it's not a good idea to judge anyone in this game for what their teammates are or aren't saying. It's a common tactic for experienced mafia in Team Mafia to muddy the waters of their reads and once again, evade accountability.

[wgeurts]

As a sidenote, I'm going to openly say it's not a good idea to judge anyone in this game for what their teammates are or aren't saying. It's a common tactic for experienced mafia in Team Mafia to muddy the waters of their reads and once again, evade accountability.

wogurtz, DK want's to hear more about your peta read, if you can.

Also, I'd never weaponize hydra dissonance. How dare you.

DK? Either way what do they want more of? I think they're likely town right now, their play matches what would be expected from them and later on I expect to see it progress in a certain way. His blind vote on HBE came right at the time during my reread I came to similar conclusions, and from what little info they gave as to why they did in 126 for the same reasons too. I can follow the thought process even though much hasn't been vocalised, and that's alll I really what at this stage of the game. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to remain consistent and coherent as scum regardless.

[wgeurts]

May I ask why you're still voting them however? As opposed to me who you've criticised or another?

[wgeurts]

Lockscum

kids these days


doesn't nearly have a good a ring as confscum

Now.

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

That seems like a sketchy refusal to elaborate considering we only know for sure you've seen pages 1 and 2.

HPE, if you're town, instead of hunkering down on why people are voting you tell me who you think we should be voting instead.

I'm not a huge fan of this post. I think evaluating people's reasons for voting itself can be a valid form of scumhunting in of itself. As for "who it thinks we should be voting instead", its vote was already on you anyway

They're giving me a whole bunch of waffle. Jingle comes in and says he's a bit suspicious of Porken's, suddenly HPE is questioning Porken's too and walks back their vote on me a little. Note that Porkens is voting with HPE. If HPE is a passive player, I want to shove them off the fence and get them to take hard stances. If they're not used to that, making them squirm will in the short term and long term be telling enough.

[wgeurts]

May I ask why you're still voting them however? As opposed to me who you've criticised or another?

Is this at me? I'm a bit confused by the reasoning behind its primary push (on you) - it doesn't really make much sense to me

Was aimed at Jingle, who do you take as town right now yourself?

[wgeurts]

Want to know why? The only tool you have as town is information. Where a metagame exists where it's acceptable to not provide substantive information scum can get away with more, there's simply less opportunities where they could potentially slip up. Without a constant and active stream or thought, engagement, and proactivity, it also becomes harders for others to gauge where you are. That is not a good thing.

[wgeurts]

Porkens is being useless, but that's unfortunately something people do as town as well as scum. So I need more information. Why aren't you voting Porkens over Fate, as he's not exactly giving much either? @HPE

Cerb, more importantly what is your stance on both Jingle and Peta. Those two are highest priority to sort with relative certainty.

[wgeurts]

A teammate of mine said I should get the double vote power which is why I said in the thread I would be willing to take it.

Why did they recommend it?

[wgeurts]

I'm more concerned with the application of the tell this early. It was explicitly beetlejuicing, but beetlejuicing is really only a scumtell if it's a pattern of behavior.

Okay what the hell is beetlejuicing

[wgeurts]

Sorry, was busy past 2 days and have a work shift today at the restaurant I work at. Expect more posting in the next 24 hours, just wanted to note my absence.

[wgeurts]

I appreciate cerberus posting content before falling off the face off the earth whereas YOGURT IS WHERE

Monday had to study for an exam that was on Tuesday and cooked hotpot for three friends, Tuesday and Wednesday I also had to work the evening shift at the restraunt I work as a cook for. Today, I just woke up, gonna grab coffee with a friend as we've both finally finished our examination period for this term, and then you'll get the usual activity from me again this evening. As a rule of thumb, Tuesdays/Wednesdays/Friday I'm oft going to be lower activity.

Spoiler: Hot pot soup base

[wgeurts]

Reading, had to work an emergency shift to help out the kitchen as someone called in sick.

[wgeurts]

also I agree the peta reads are sudden

but not so much a 'where is this all of a sudden'

more like tis been simmering since peta's been not active and it would be VERY INTERESTING to see wgeurts flip, cuz if theyre scum Ill take peta as conftown

Got 7 more pages to go, but do I need to lure you off my wagon with more tasty temptations?

[wgeurts]

im down to wagon anyone thats not obviosuly town

i mean thats how the game is won bois

Counterpoint:

Sichuanese boiled beef

[wgeurts]

Okay I somehow fucked up that spoiler formatting

[wgeurts]

{CSF}
{Radical Rat, Petapan, Jingle}
{Adorable, Fate}
{Cerb}
{Porkens}
{HPE}

Page 13 rn, these are my current reads. Will be giving in-depth thoughts once done.

[wgeurts]

I also refuse to share a tier with adorable, I've been way scummier

I have a few things I'll get into that make it slightly more likely for you to fall town than scum, likewise with adorable. Honest to god I don't know how to properly handle either of your playstyles though.

[wgeurts]

Not caught up my list is

HPE
Adorbs
Rat

CSF
Cerb
Porkens

Fate

Wgeurts
Peta

Not done yet, but straight up what on earth have Cerb/Porkens/HPE done to earn those positions? Your readslist makes it feel like I'm reading a completely different game to you.

[wgeurts]

Like, Cerb has quite demonstrably given little to nothing of value and a lot of it is wordy but not at all substantive. I cannot for the life of me follow HPE's progression, but can think of a relatively clear scum motivated one. It's reactively forming a lot of opinions. You rank Fate low and then say you think he's abrasive town and that Koba is worried they're going to get mislynched?

And then finally just karma check Porkens for town when he's done nothing whatsoever?

[wgeurts]

Oh wait I misread, those are Koba's reads. I want whatever koba is on man.

[wgeurts]

-snip-

Nevermind I need whatever your whole team is taking.

[wgeurts]

I've had brewing suspicions on him for a while now, mostly because early game he seemed to be actively avoiding doing content, so I'll bite there. I don't necessarily think you're right, but peta being actually scummy to me and doubling as a sanity check on the very stylish hat sounds good.

VOTE: petapan

Okay I disagree with this and want to talk this over with you, more later.

[wgeurts]

I'm satisfied enough

VOTE: petapan

what

[wgeurts]

I do not understand the peta scum reads can anyone lay it out for me? I've read the whole thread, and Jingle seems to be like death-tunnelled on the slot, whilst others seem to just be seeing something completely contrary to what I'm seeing.


Meanwhile HPE has LITERALLY just positioned themselves AGAIN to bounce if they need be. They town read Petapan in both 261 and 162, have completely unannounced said they now scum read them, asking others to do the explaining. Previously they also softened their scum read of me as it didn't like it was going anywhere, until people picked it up again, and also magically positions to dislike Porkens when others start mentioning the slot but doesn't do anything with it.

How is this town behaviour.

Am I delirious?

I can't believe it's page 17 and I'm going to have to post my first ISO

deathtunnel

case

[wgeurts]

Like this is why I have a spreadsheet tracking literally everything people say on anybody and get mad at people with null reads. Null reads for no reason are a lame excuse for laziness or malice.

Peta went from "most" liked to scum literally only because others are doing the same. This slot is just looking for something to stick: they've angled on me, Porkens, Fate, and Peta now and have no indication that they're considering that something must be wrong in their line of thought to end up there.

[wgeurts]

{CSF}
{Radical Rat,

Petapan

, Jingle}
{Adorable, Fate}
{Cerb}
{Porkens}
{HPE}

Page 13 rn, these are my current reads. Will be giving in-depth thoughts once done.

This one would ask what you think about their peta read

since it's also opposite yours

but you're going to give your full thoughts in a bit anywho.

Bullshit, you are such a liar

You literally just said your read is "opposite" to mine. My read on Peta has been town the entire game. You scum read me when it was convenient, then started walking it back by saying my recent posting looked town, just to go back when it was convenient. This is all you have done with all your reads the entire damn game, and now you're outright lying.

VOTE: HPE
VOTE: HPE
VOTE: HPE

[wgeurts]

Like, I don't want to see a single other post from anyone unless they can either:

A - Point out that I'm losing my mind
B - Vote this shit

[wgeurts]

Again, I'll kill anyone not town

Null reads are worthy for death

What is your read on HPE, and what do you make of what they just said. I'm going to skip my usual wall to first write up comprehensively why this slot needs to go, and then explain my other reads after.

[wgeurts]

oh you beat me to it, this is why I should read the preview

[wgeurts]

I really don't like this, but I still strongly believe you're scum despite what would otherwise be an instant death-tunnel slip. The pronoun usage is ambiguous but what you say is plausible. I am still convince you are scum though, your positioning has been off all game. Going to write that case now.

[wgeurts]

The pronoun usage is ambiguous but what you say is plausible.

It's not "ambiguous" and "plausible" it's literally how this one talks.

It is, but their purely linguisticly could also refer to your own. I just isolated you in all your post games to verify. The closest you would get is the bottom quote and even that remains ambiguous when related to the post you made. I pulled the trigger too quickly there, but as I said, I thought you were scum before that and still do.

HPE what is your read on Meg?

Feels towny rn but needs an ISO reread of their own. Probably going to do that and then disappear for my previously mentioned whimsical activities.

[wgeurts]

Koba wants me to share that wgeurts looks like flailing scum who doesn't have a place to pivot now that HPE doesn't look nearly as mislimmable as before.

If I'm scum the easier pivot would be Cerb, Porkens or Fate for pressure. Death tunnelling HPE is not the play, as particularly as they'd flip green in that scenario, I'm instantly getting hanged.

[wgeurts]

Koba wants me to share that wgeurts looks like flailing scum who doesn't have a place to pivot now that HPE doesn't look nearly as mislimmable as before.

If I'm scum the easier pivot would be Cerb, Porkens or Fate for pressure. Death tunnelling HPE is not the play, as particularly as they'd flip green in that scenario, I'm instantly getting hanged.

You mean the low hanging fruit?

Convenient that all four "low-hanging fruit" are the people you've waffled on.

[wgeurts]

Bar, Cerb. I don't like your Fate/Porkens/my stance and I don't like how you're acting regarding Peta. I'm writing my post regardless as we speak

[wgeurts]

Much of the original issues I had with HPE in post 140 remain, if anything I find that the patterns of its behaviour have worsened.

Their initial defense to my accusations and thoughts came in post 157 with the following:

Spoiler:

Yeah, this one figured a game full of people its not played with wouldn't have a picture of it's playstyle. People have told this one before that taking a more passive backrow approach is par for the course for it, and it wants to agree? This one obviously isn't the best judge of it's own meta because it isn't always conscious of how it's actually, y'know, playing and acting, but still, this feels like a big clash of playstyle, albeit...*

But other than that:
It's obviously up to the individual's interpretation of how cool and good a post actually is in terms of solviness, but this one doesn't really think you could call everything
you've linked as providing nothing
of substance, especially when you go and try to call me asking someone why they're voting me as "empty questioning". And what's up with trying to recontextualize 124/135? Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads, and this one saying it doesn't have reads at the moment. And "weirdly obsessed with the double vote" feels like a grasping at straws, to be honest. *...this also feels like a really uncharitable analysis of me either way.

They first fall back on the tried and true "misunderstood" playstyle argument when my gripes with them were not to do with that. To summarise my issues I had then: their posts lacked content that could be held accountible, substance which you can be held to. Asking questions and probing doesn't mean anything if you don't indicate what the result of that is for your thoughts regarding the game. Particularly in the early stages of the game, this is comfortable as scum; you remain flexible and can manouveur much more freely. Note, the only read they really gave prior was Porkens for scum in 138, which they softened in that same post. The posts I used as example in 140 are as follows:

Spoiler:

This isn't too sure it uh... sees how that's scummy?

Questioning why Dunn (Peta's teammate) finds Jingle scummy, doesn't followup with own thoughts on Jingle.

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

Ehhh... This one doesn't really get that impression in the first place, but also scum probably weren't told about the power-up beforehand (there really isn't a need to when it gets announced to everyone at the start of the day) and even if they were they'd probably get the same description of it's effect.

It just seems like reading into things a bit too much?

Simply stating that the aformentioned seems like a reach. Nothing wrong with this inherently, but once again, no indication what they think of Jingle. I'm talking about patterns.

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

Presumably from people voting for who gets it? But that feels like a kinda moot point tbh, who really cares about some extra posts for power-up votes. My real concern is what RR brought up in that even on town it's gonna be a double-edged sword.

More soulless posting that appears to be delibirating but still no indication of any read or consequence to their probing questions.

etc.

And all their other posts prior to 140 were like that. They posted, commented, questioned, but showed no thought as to why they were doing so. What was their objective? What was their result? The answer, in my eyes, is that it doesn't feel like there was one to both. As Peta said in 126, it felt like they were "posting just to post". When called out on that they stat they simply don't "have any substantial reads or input right now" or in the earlygame, yet. CSF picked ip on it too, as stated in post 136, and HPE just shrugs it off saying its commenting of things such as "weird or alarming" were just "weird in a not very AI way.". What was the point in commenting in the first place then? What's the intent?
I misread an interaction they had with Jingle in the early game, so I'm not going to rehash that as it's NAI.

Anyhow.

Only after being called out do they summon the Porken's scum read in post 138 because he "self voted the power up", which they immediately water down thereafter in the same post. This is the first true substance we get from it. Porken's probably isn't scum with HPE, despite me not liking either slot, and HPE will continue to hedge on this read for some time to come. If HPE is scum, they're likely low-hanging fruit and my dislike of Porken's is then the result of his irrational behaviour.

After some further questioning by me they also give out that they most like Peta for town, and place a really poor vote on me in post 162. Their reasons being: my post 42 in which I criticise someone not explaining why they're not taking stances, and then a miscontrued observation of how I approeach the power-up talk claiming I'd reversed my stance on ??? i'm not even sure.

Then we get post 204. HPE walks back their scum-read on me somewhat referencing my post 169 wherein I explain exactly what I just explained above. They also then start to have even more misgivings about porkens... who blind votes me after HPE does. They say that they're worried Porken's may be sheeping them as to buddy, which is a bit moonlogic, but would also imply I would have to be town. There's dissonance here I cannot rhyme or reason. If HPE thinks I'm scum, then Porken's would be bussing me if HPE also thinks they're scum. This is not what they're saying. We're both simltaneously scummy through double-think. It's also noteworthy as this stance is taken right after Jingle voices misgivings regarding Porkens, and eventually also applies to Fate. Their reads don't make sense as a whole, and in this particular example could be evidence of positioning.

Spoiler:

This one kinda has some misgivings about the vibes of Porkens and to a lesser extent since they've only just now come around, Fate. Porkens instantly voting for you after me gives something of a buddying impression, though it's not... really sure what to make of their posts otherwise, because it feels like shitposting. This one's starting to like you a bit more after 169 clearing things up a bit but the initial accusations are still... Eek.

Then we have post 230. I am more towny, but simltaneously it has reason to believe I have real scum motivation? Porkens is also suspect, but that gets walked back too. They then vote Fate, who is voting them, to get more from them despite having just stated that they need more from Porkens and had scum-leanings. I cannot understand the town mindset here, they have reason to believe to incompatible scum-leans of which one hasn't provided much content, to then push a third-party that is neither? It makes sense from the perspective of hpe getting nervous under the pushback I'm giving, and not wanting to vote Porken's because I just called it out potentially positioning for that. It reads like posturing, an attempt to diffuse the situation. I can see the coherence as scum, I struggle as town.

Spoiler:

This one is suspect of Porkens independent of Jingle's post because he's just not done a whole lot all game other than suddenly buddy up and vote with me, but that could just be "hey, I believe you", but he's still not given many posts of substance either way. And you explaining your reasoning more in-depth for why you're voting me, i.e. 227, does give me town vibes, even if as this one said to CSF that it has reason to believe still you have a scum motive behind things. What are

your

thoughts on Porkens the other other no-substancer, since you're currently under the impression that Adorable is currently within their townrange? You haven't said much on Porkens since your readwall after all.

Beyond that, going to actually VOTE: Fate. This one wants some more out of you, please.

In post 261 it also reveals their second town read: Jingle. Quite uncontroversial. It then states the reason they scum-read my push on it but not peta/cfs is because of reasons that they previously said I clarified and felt more towny for, or a minor issue they fail to explain how it is scum motivated. Then in post 276 they state they may switch their vote back to me, as they don't believe they'll get a wagon going on Porken's or Fate which would have them "talking" and "no one seems altogethere interested at the moment" at wagoning them.

So let's set this straight. HPE scum reads me for ??? reasons, started walking it back and focused more on Porkens as Porkens started getting floated in discourse, then dismisses themselves finding me more towny after my clarification to their posts, and is in a position to vote either Porkens, Fate or me and go anywhere with all three slots, all three slots that are currently most likely contenders for a wagon. Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

It jumps back to me in 361 to vote alongside fate who they'd been posturing around as I'm their biggest scum read and I'm still not quite sure why its voting me. Peta starts getting some flack, and then they post 415 where although "these peta scumreads seem a little sudden" that it "probably needs to do some ISO digging". In the most charitiable interpetation of 439, which I think is the likley one, they then ask others for their opinion on peta. And now finally in post 478 have concluded that peta is worth voting.

To summarise.

HPE started the game with empty posting that appears useless but gave nothing of substance that could potentially be held against them later. Only after people called them out on this did they give a very weak scum read on porkens, which they have not pushed since despite keeping it in their realm of possible angles since. They vote me and after interaction state I'm looking more towny whilst angling harder on porkens who Jingle floated as a suspect just before, and then vote Fate for doing nothing despite still going on about Porkens who has also not done anything. This feels like scum anxiety to me as I called out the posturing just prior. Their reasons for disliking Porkens are absolute moonlogic incompatable with finding me scum at the same time, albeit without doublethink. Now peta is more suspect they've literally 180d their read after positioning with empty questions as to why others were doing so. Peta went from most to least town, and they haven't said why their thoughts changed.

Cherry on the top, its calling themselves low-hanging fruit by implying me going for them is going for low-hanging fruit, implying that my reasons in perception should seem valid whilst they haven't adressed. They care so much about why people are voting them, keeping themselves able to vote all of me, peta, porkens and fate (having said nothing about RR, CSF, Adorable and Cerb conveniently, the less universal town reads), have no coherency in their behaviour. At least not as town. As scum, it is simply posturing.

I don't know what more you want day 1. Their recent switch on Peta is so incredibly scummy. Their treatment of Porkens is bizarre. Their read on me makes no sense (to me). Their treatment of Fate is also bizarre. And the people that haven't ever been hot topic? Well it doesn't care about those. Call it convenient or call it perceived opportunism.

[wgeurts]

wgeurts can you comment on cerb's meta especially if he's typically reticent with his reads a la 369? I would normally check but I have limited time at the moment

I do not like his posting but he is correct in that he comes into action later in the game, it has been some years, but if he doesn't step up D2 it's a definite point to criticise. He's a bad day 1 vote, but you may note he's rather low down in my reads. Basically, null, maybe a bit scum leaning, but by far pending further action.

[wgeurts]

“Tedious”? Dang.

Can you for once actually comment on the game, actually give thoughts on what's happening, instead of being obnoxious?

[wgeurts]

I will comment on my other reads later, I need a break for a bit

[wgeurts]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

The wall is horribly written and I pain myself rereading and should have proof-read it

But yeah, for those who's eyes glazed over. What I don't like about HPE:

• They started the game nothing posting. All their posts appeared useful but gave no insight to what their reads could be, or anything that they later could be held accountable for.
  
• They only started giving reads under pressure, and have only ever given reads on people who are hot topic.
  
• Their reads do not make coherent sense. Their read on me is based of me misconstruing them: yet they acknowledge my clarifications made me look more town in the past, and have failed to point out where I'm misrepresenting them further and how it is scum motivated. They also claim that it looks like I'm pursuing them as low-hanging fruit, which would imply that they acknowledge their slot looks scummy and like an easy elimination option, which would mean my case makes sense... when their entire case against me is that it doesn't. They just don't like me because I'm pushing them imo.
  
• They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.
  
• They floated porkens as a low-hanging scum read when pushed for any substance, then doubled down with absolute moonlogic dissonant with their scum read on me, conveniently after Jingle floated it as an option. Instead they go after Fate for things Porkens has also done, and also keep me as an option to vote despite having called me "more towny" prior. They abandon Fate as soon as a wagon does finally form as per the earlier stated objective, it doesn't add up.
  
• Their reads are all watered down and easy to correct as per the status quo, people that aren't part of the discourse, don't matter to them.
  
• Their 180 on Peta is absolutely filthy, and in the posts leading up to it you can quite evidently see behaviour that can be interpreted as positioning to back off their prior number 1 town read. They constantly use others reads to form their own, with little to no evidence that anything they're coming up with is original and not opportunistically staged.

[wgeurts]

I do have to say these wagons and pushes are going to be beautiful when people do flip, there's a lot to analyse

[wgeurts]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

Go through the summarised points I just gave you and tell me how that is garbage.

[wgeurts]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

The wall is horribly written and I pain myself rereading and should have proof-read it

But yeah, for those who's eyes glazed over. What I don't like about HPE:

• They started the game nothing posting. All their posts appeared useful but gave no insight to what their reads could be, or anything that they later could be held accountable for.
  
• They only started giving reads under pressure, and have only ever given reads on people who are hot topic.
  
• Their reads do not make coherent sense. Their read on me is based of me misconstruing them: yet they acknowledge my clarifications made me look more town in the past, and have failed to point out where I'm misrepresenting them further and how it is scum motivated. They also claim that it looks like I'm pursuing them as low-hanging fruit, which would imply that they acknowledge their slot looks scummy and like an easy elimination option, which would mean my case makes sense... when their entire case against me is that it doesn't. They just don't like me because I'm pushing them imo.
  
• They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.
  
• They floated porkens as a low-hanging scum read when pushed for any substance, then doubled down with absolute moonlogic dissonant with their scum read on me, conveniently after Jingle floated it as an option. Instead they go after Fate for things Porkens has also done, and also keep me as an option to vote despite having called me "more towny" prior. They abandon Fate as soon as a wagon does finally form as per the earlier stated objective, it doesn't add up.
  
• Their reads are all watered down and easy to correct as per the status quo, people that aren't part of the discourse, don't matter to them.
  
• Their 180 on Peta is absolutely filthy, and in the posts leading up to it you can quite evidently see behaviour that can be interpreted as positioning to back off their prior number 1 town read. They constantly use others reads to form their own, with little to no evidence that anything they're coming up with is original and not opportunistically staged.

Put your money where your mouth is

[wgeurts]

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

Most? Probably petapan, as they've been putting up a pretty good solving effort imo after some ISO reviewing, especially 90/97, or really just their posts related to Jingle in general.

Least? You, honestly. Other than the obvious, 42 is just a touch odd in the way it asks for people to elaborate on why they might have nullreads at a staggering 42 posts in, and this isn't exactly a 'gotcha' or anything, but you seemed to have taken a far lighter stance on power-up talk in 35 which you've since reversed both in talking about Jingle and about me. This one thinks it'll park a semi-OMGUS mostly-scumread VOTE: wgeurts on you because it just really feels like you're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill on me.

HPE, is there anyone in this game who you are not currently suspicious of, and why? I appreciate a focus on scum, but also, like, identifying town is important.

And okay, then - in that case, what exactly was the problem you had with someone stating their reads are unreliable? Can you walk me through that reasoning, if the confidence someone projects doesn't have much to do with it?

Feeling pretty good about Jingle, and to a lesser extent petapan, mostly because they've been absent a bit. They've both been making rather nice posts (its hard to pin down specific ones to point out unfortunately) and Jingle's ISO in particularly feels very very solvey.

That's a good question, honestly, this one hasn't been thinking too super hard about it until you asked. It just felt like at the moment a kind of weird thing to say. "Hey guys, my reads are unreliable!" is, technically a humble and truthful thing to say because no one can ever be super precise, but its also kinda like, why should we believe you then? Jingle's been doing good, as mentioned, so its kinda whatever, but it just put this one off a bit. Guess that's really all there is to it.

I'm still unsure how why you singled them out for potential scum motivation if their accusations have been the same as others tbh

To clarify: You asked what makes you and peta's accusations different from wgeurts'. This one said the only common link was that you all three said it wasn't posting much of substance, because otherwise only wgeurts was making further accusations in the readwall like with the Jingle thing or power-up talk, etc.

These peta scumreads seem a little sudden but this one probably needs to do some ISO digging. Does anyone have any posts in specific they find scummy from peta?

Like, Cerb has quite demonstrably given little to nothing of value and a lot of it is wordy but not at all substantive. I cannot for the life of me follow HPE's progression, but can think of a relatively clear scum motivated one. It's reactively forming a lot of opinions. You rank Fate low and then say you think he's abrasive town and that Koba is worried they're going to get mislynched?

And then finally just karma check Porkens for town when he's done nothing whatsoever?

This one would ask what you think about their peta read since it's also opposite yours but you're going to give your full thoughts in a bit anywho.

Still pending an ISO analysis on peta of my own due to other things but this one thinks it's seeing where you're coming from, but it'll withhold an actual scumread for that ISO dive.

Okay yeah, this is definitely a bit bad. This one can concur that peta doesn't seem to be making as many actual points of substance as he's trying to look like he is. This one thinks it'd be willing to vote there but it has bigger wgeurts-shaped fish to fry so that's probably not happening anytime soon.

[wgeurts]

Town-like progression on Peta by the way, definitely not "most town" and one of their only two town reads to scum read with beautiful textbook angling to off-ramp using someone elses reasons. Meanwhile is ready to vote me, Peta, Fate, and Porkens. Hasn't explained why or whether or not they do like some more or less as progression. Hasn't said anything about all the "swing" players (CSF, RR, Cerb, Adorable), convenient. Scumread Porkens because he might be buddying it despite also thinking I'm scum.

Real coherency, real natural progression.

Wake up Jingle, how is that garbage.

[wgeurts]

That doesn’t at all look like a response to “do you think peta reads your original wall and comes back with” this is compelling.

Considering I've found myself agreeing with Peta before multiple times and I believe have had the same progression for said thoughts yes I do believe it.

Most of my town read back in 140 was based on that.

[wgeurts]

It's also consistent with their meta albeit Xof but I can't speak for that

[wgeurts]

Them liking RR for town very early on, I loved their switch to HBE as it was literally what I was considering just as their vote came up during my first reread, their added information on adorable, 299 on Cerb which is currently my standing too. The only thing I properly disagreed with was their early issues with you

[wgeurts]

Like, regarding your dislike of him.

Xof quite literally likes your mechanics stuff themselves. Koba is constantly speaking to your ears, any good team is scum or town. There post regarding the meat of cerb is hardly insidious. Unlike cerb Peta has notable stances: see HBE scum, RR town, me town, CSF town. You cannot at all say the same for Cerb.

[wgeurts]

I cannot be convinced that your quote case Jingle, undid all of HPE's thoughts towards Peta with no further note or explanation why, after that blatant posturing.

[wgeurts]

(it's funny cuz it makes some nice, well-argued points that i think are coming from a townie, but i'm not convinced it makes hpe definite scum

Definite scum doesn't exist it's day 1. But the 2nd best options in my eyes are significantly less compelling in scum-motive narrative, and secondly would provide far less information upon flipping.

[wgeurts]

Like, eliminating Jingle gives so little and loses a lot if wrong.

HPE has interactions regarding Fate, Porkens, myself, and Peta. There's also the wagons which spring up in competition, the people that didn't commit, and the people that went all for it. If, and I genuinely believe that likely, they flip red, this game is really easy sailing. If they flip green, if I'm not immediately mislynched, there's a lot of information to be gained and even if I do go out Day 2 I think we're left with enough associative information to be left in a good position. I am willing to stake myself on this

[wgeurts]

if it's wrong it gets rid of a person with bad reads

Spoiler:

kidding

Kindly also put your money where your mouth is and go for someone too, assuming you're done reading.

[wgeurts]

Stop trying to utterly straw-man my push on you as "playstyle", I am solely talking about the intent behind your actions, actionable things which you posted and done within this thread.

If you're actually town you'd be trying to clarify what's in your head, not this weird as fudge dismissal crumpets.

You'd be telling me who you do potentially think is town. Telling me who you do potentially think is scum. Clarify your current stance on Fate and Porkens beyond just that they're silly, I know that, are they town or scum silly though? You would give any stance whatsoever regarding Cerb, CSF, RR and Adorable. You would be trying your hardest to explain what happened in your head that changed your mind on Peta so radically.

You'd be telling me what about Jingle's post sold you, why your thoughts changed.

Not telling me "reads change and fluctuate, that's normal"

This isn't playstyle, there's a bloody pattern of behaviour that doesn't make sense as town and does make sense as scum.

Even this defence is weird as hell if coming from town. This lacks a complete drive of any town intent.

[wgeurts]

I also refuse to share a tier with adorable, I've been way scummier

I thought you were scumreading Adorable though or did that change?

Null to null-town, they were in the pile with everyone else I didn't have enough to gauge alongside Fate, Porkens and Cerb at the time. I'm going to cover my other reads later when I'm less wound up about HPE

[wgeurts]

I also refuse to share a tier with adorable, I've been way scummier

I thought you were scumreading Adorable though or did that change?

Thoughts on everything else I've posted as it's not the kind of "don't comment" content

[wgeurts]

wgeurts can you comment on cerb's meta especially if he's typically reticent with his reads a la 369? I would normally check but I have limited time at the moment

I do not like his posting but he is correct in that he comes into action later in the game, it has been some years, but if he doesn't step up D2 it's a definite point to criticise. He's a bad day 1 vote, but you may note he's rather low down in my reads. Basically, null, maybe a bit scum leaning, but by far pending further action.

All right, why is he on the lower side then if this is within his townrange?

Cerb knows his self-meta well enough and has openly stated so this game even, if you're reading him for his style you're going to get fooled. You have to read him for how rational, plausible and convincing he is when he does start. Being a methodical town player has it's benefits, but it's harder to spoof as scum as you need to do the same whilst suppressing your subconscious motivations.

[wgeurts]

It isn't that he never gives day 1 thoughts, him not giving any juice leads me to question the slot, but a full verdict will follow not on day 1.

[wgeurts]

From my pov I can't really think of anyone who would be HPE scum partner.

Jingle, Cerb, maybe even Porkens if Porkens is really really unmotivated to play but that's an unlikely stretch.

[wgeurts]

i gotta be honest here wgeurts vs hpe is starting to have a whiff of tvt to it which i know will annoy wgeurts but i think jingle is the one positioning himself around it, i don't really think his townread of princess actually makes sense or has good reasoning behind it, he's just buddying up to the newbie who is townreading him for NAI behavior


265 is in fact a complete dogshit post that as much as it stretches and twists can't actually establish a reason as to why that stuff makes me scum besides "he not have many stances". basically not worth my time but i will address this:

Where is the scum motivation in 'committing to written words' when there's not a lot to go on?

it struck my as a possible instance of trying too hard, too soon - a very basic tell where scum will try to appear solvy when the game doesn't really merit doing so. having reads arranged into a list on page 4 struck me as potentially being a case of that. but also, it was the early game so i was hardly going to commit to a push based solely on that, and at any rate i thought "i'm bored" might have been a plausible excuse

Flip HPE then we can talk Jingle, if I survive long enough

[wgeurts]

Like my money is on you and Jingle being both town right now, but if HPE flips red it isn't Jingle imo, and if they flip green I will have to revaluate the entire game

[wgeurts]

Who do you vote if Jingle goes green?

[wgeurts]

Had a rough day today and a hell shift on friday, expect more from me tomorrow. I haven't read yet

[wgeurts]

Wgeurts, did you go to Coachella after I specifically told you not to?

I wish, sorry guys.

[wgeurts]

Fair. What’s your take on wgeurts sudden departure from planet erf?

Yeah do not base your read on me for this, I'm not giving more information why I'm not around because it's about personal circumstances but when I say "I've had a rough day" I mean it. I know I said I would post thereafter, that was my also my intention. I haven't been able to do so.

Saying this as nicely as possible

[wgeurts]

Sure, read for me my content but leave my absence out of it. I am going to be reading in the next hour.

Also I strongly disagree that I haven't got content, I'm one of the largest posters despite having not been active past few days. I hope that I'll find actual content regarding said posts that I can interact with.

[wgeurts]

Titus is literally dealing with a medical problem they've posted about in their own game and Ythan hasn't been following my game and got prodded for their own. I'll admit I skimmed and missed the post prior. Catching up.

[wgeurts]

I'm gonna write up on train home but VOTE: Jingle>/v]

Aware this likely makes it me or him today and with how little I got to post last few days it may be uphill, but peta is right.

[wgeurts]

I fucked that up on mobile real hard

VOTE: jingle

[wgeurts]

VT Toad

Catching up tomorrow, sorry for my appalling absence everyone

[wgeurts]

Alright, I am genuinely back now and reading. To provide context for people what was going on, I have chronic headaches and chest pain which flares up at times and dealing with that, life, and mafia sometimes just cost too much of me. I then also had an unfortunate three shifts of work during a national holiday and school break which were killing. I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what has happened these last 20-30 pages. I skimmed and saw Jingle holding me as a town bloc which is wild enough, and we appear to have made HPE 1-shot bulletproof too.

Can someone give me the very quick rundown of things? Before I reread the whole game with the information we now have. I got pinged to massclaim and saw others were too so I did, if there's a list of who claims what I'd like that and any notes on what we now know?

[wgeurts]

I'm also going to admit I wasn't fully 100% aware what was going on towards the end of Day 1 when things started popping up for me and I was incredibly frustrated. As I've had the chance to step away I want to approach things with fresh eyes.

[wgeurts]

Fate is town, that's not negotiable. Thanks for the info.

[wgeurts]

I'm not caught up fully yet, just asking quickly, did you guys verify the loved status of adorable? If yes I'm treating them as confirmed town for all effective purposes.

[wgeurts]

She is conftown until XLO.

Agreed. Working through the possible associative tells by working my way through the entire game from start instead of just carrying on from where I left off.

Peta and Adorable I'm going to treat as town bloc.

I need to re-verify my impression, but Fate yelling at people to shut up about the entire Toad thing late Day 1 just screamed town in my eyes alongside some other points.

[wgeurts]

Quick question as I have yet to read Day 2, has Cerb given any significant input beyond the mechanical? I'm talking, this is the board state right now and we're doing this type of rhetoric. I need to be seeing that from them.

[wgeurts]

Cerb fought against claiming and peaced. He’s done basically nothing since.

Consider my vote on them then, this is unmotivated scum cerb if so and he should be held against the edge of a cliff until he spits content or gives up.

[wgeurts]

God I hate everything about HPE's early posts still and it makes my skin crawl, going to have to use my utmost restraint to try and give that slot the benefit of the doubt.

[wgeurts]

If HPE scum the lack of reasonable results will be way more telling than anything D1. Your case was all play style.

I am really tempted to yell about the last sentence but I'm going to refrain... for now.

[wgeurts]

Jingle, seeing how you're here. Can you elaborate in some detail how the heck you've gone from scum-reading everything I do to somehow putting me in a town-bloc? If you're written why somewhere just link me the post but I want to keep this progression in mind.

[wgeurts]

I forgot Jingle's early D1 push to get Adorable powered up, I can't comprehend a reasonable motive for that as scum right now. As town it's a gamble as we don't know for sure if we're giving scum an ability and you give somebody a double vote, but they justified the mechanical logic for themselves enough that it is a plausible educated risk. As scum, the only situation you do this is to gain bonus points for looking town as some sort of megamind play, or you're scum partnered with Adorable. The latter is so unbelievably stupid that I'm just going to rule that option out immediately. The scum trying to buff town situation only makes sense with a strongman in the game in that they don't care for the powerup. But Jingle as scum is smart enough to keep this to himself, only act if someone else appears to be catching on to champion it, and save themselves the hassle otherwise. This interaction alone leans quite strongly towards likely town or I'm spewing moonlogic. Moving on.

But working with me, Peta, Jingle, Adorable as town right now for sure. I'm gun to head going to say Fate is town, but want to get further interactions in chart.

HPE/Cerb/RR has 1 if not both scum guaranteed.

[wgeurts]

Okay so I basically just said what Jingle said bar HPE and with more mechanical reasoning lol

[wgeurts]

Since this is smaller, I'll solve the game midday tomorrow assuming we see two flips to base my analysis off of.

Cerb I will be voting you until I get this.

[wgeurts]

There is a very unlikely timeline Peta is scum gaming this perfectly but that reality's justification is much more absurd than the other likely options in the view of the game I'm forming.

[wgeurts]

His progression on reads alongside the thoughts provided would be astoundingly well pulled off if scum.

[wgeurts]

Okay so Cerb is not scum with RR if either rolls scum IMO.

[wgeurts]

Why?

I am not yet at D2 still admittedly as forming my thoughts is taking a while. But RR had no need to put cerb at X-1, and force a claim that is so blatantly suboptimal for scum in the moment.

[wgeurts]

Cerb would happily advocate for someone to bus them as a partner, if he we active and able to manage the situation. This doesn't look orchestrated or planned.

[wgeurts]

Issue is, repercussion of an assumption that the two aren't scum together are quite far reaching. I could see HPE and RR as scum. Otherwise it's Cerb + someone I'm misreading. The third option is a really fucked world wherein Peta but based on his play I am so, so unwillingly to seriously entertain this option.

[wgeurts]

I need to proofread my language more

[wgeurts]

I also need to more properly assess Fate, but their play just doesn't rhyme with what I'd expect to see from Scum.

[wgeurts]

I am so fudging close to having the pieces make sense in my head I'm just missing something. Between Cerb and RR pinpointing one of the two would do so much for information state of the game but not enough so that I'm willing to hastily rush it along. I don't think Cerb's play has been townlike yet and if he hasn't lived up to my expectations in Day 2 he will get my pressure until he does so regardless. But I'm missing something in the larger picture. RR + Cerb seems too obvious but I just don't see it as making sense.

[wgeurts]

If I'm wrong somewhere it's either Fate or Peta, but both of these are absolutely terrible targets for today as the information state of the game will not gain tremendously from it.

[wgeurts]

Okay the Fate interaction with the Porkens wagon does not strike me as Scum white-knighting at all

[wgeurts]

Okay HPE + RR is off the table that makes no sense with the claims

[wgeurts]

Which means HPE is probably town and that makes me sad

[wgeurts]

Okay I am fully up to date now.

We are wagoning cerb today, and will keep doing so unless he convinces me why we should be voting someone else. I don't care about him speaking why we shouldn't be voting him to be frank.

I think the chance of RR being town and I'm fucking up elsewhere is significant enough that I'm not comfortable going for it.

Adorable is conf town in my eyes for now
Jingle and Peta are probably town
Fate may as well be probably town

This leaves me with HPE/RR/Cerb

There's too many things at play and I'm not yet confident enough in my judgement of the game to point out a pair, there's also room for error in my town reads. But one of those three has to flip red otherwise I'd be willing to just surrender this game as is.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Cerb

[wgeurts]

Hmm. I don't think the E-1 on cerb is all that compelling given thread sentiment was already very anti cerb. I do think there's something odd going on if RR/cerb but more to the direction of the soft guilty and RR/Fate playing out with cerb being the other scum. If cerb is scum does RR really throw soft evidence on that pile in a way that doesn't really make them look much townier?

I'll reread it again tomorrow, I'm tired having just spent hours catching up again

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:

To allow cerb to discuss. I am potentially wrong, after all.

NOTHING TO WAIT FOR HERE DONT LET DOUBT CLOUD YOUR MIND


only thing I havent seen anyone do is ISO Cat Scratch FOR READS AND PONDER WHY THEY WERE NKd

do i have to carry this whole goddamn town

They were quite evidently town and also gave away that they were a PR if scum knew about Toad flavour

[wgeurts]

They though, me, Adorable, HPE, RR and Peta were town iirc

They didn't like Cerb and Porkens

[wgeurts]

Cerb, who is scum. If RR/Adorable/Fate are probably town you're going to end up angling that two of HPE/me/Jingle/Peta are scum and that's a hot take in most combinations. Convince me of it. Save your town reads for later, spare the energy, I want to know who you think we should be voting and why.

[wgeurts]

Okay the thing is though, cerb has yet to point to an alternative which he would as Town. There is so much information in the game right now, to the point its day 2 and we have very strongly felt reads. As scum or town cerb is able to reproduce his ISO dives by applying the same line of thought and methodology. I honestly am not interested in their town reads right now, all I care about is who they think we should be eliminating and why they're the best option as opposed to the others. Their body of work these past few posts although coherent has not impressed me as off yet.

[wgeurts]

He's also like, not trying to bounce off me or do the whole "solve the game on day 2 thing". He's either scum or not got his heart in this game big time.

[wgeurts]

Cerb adorable doesn't exist as an option

[wgeurts]

I already ran through some options for scum teams lemme see if I saved my notes

[wgeurts]

Enough information in the game to just end this now. Will reread the entire thing in the next few days, advise you all do the same. It was good to know I was right on Cerb, had some doubts, but decided that Cerb would have more bite in his appeals to me if he were truly unmotivated town. Then you all ended the day.

[wgeurts]

Unless my thoughts change in the reread HPE is probably town and that still makes me sad

[wgeurts]

i've been busy with work, tomorrow off so expect readup then

[wgeurts]

Not fully done reading up just yet, will chip in once finished

[wgeurts]

Not fully done reading up just yet, will chip in once finished

Do you agree to lim me then rat then peta in that order and protect wgeurts? Y/N

I mean yes, it's one of you three.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Jingle

I dislike this because I have 20 pages left to go but there's no real point if we're just going to do this, undeniably scum is one of you three however and I think it's optimal as such.

[wgeurts]

Yeah we flip RR today

[wgeurts]

It's not Adorable or HPE, end of.

[wgeurts]

Yeah we flip RR today

so did you just give up on rereading the game or are those your conclusions

Last day I did but I'm giving it more time now, I'm not gonna lie I did not realise my vote was the hammer and won't be doing so until I have time to post not from mobile.

[wgeurts]

RR is literally the only option I want flipped today and then tomorrow we look further.

[wgeurts]

Titus didn't like Peta earlier and I had to decline the voices telling me to do that, but I'll ask her what she thinks now. I reckon game ends when we flip RR though.

Peta would be the kind of scum partner that would motivate cerb to actually try. No offence intended, but their playstyle would mesh. Also RR has literally no other option but to fish on HPE or Peta as scum. If RR somehow does flip town I think we take out Peta but that would be done a little more carefully.

[wgeurts]

The case can be made that Peta is doomed scum that knows this is almost an impossible fight but I'm not going there yet

[wgeurts]

Okay I really don't have a reason to drag this out.

VOTE: Radical Rat

No I haven't read all the pages, and I could have taken the time to give in-depth thoughts on the slots, but regardless of the result I'm always voting RR today. I'd rather get the result of this, base further analysis off the flip, and then talk to clean up the game from there.

[wgeurts]

I mean if it's not you it's 90% peter but I'll be actually rereading Adorable and HPE for the off chance it isn't.

[wgeurts]

Peta*

[wgeurts]

I agree, it's far more likely than not to be peta, with HPE as a secondary possibility. Adorable would probably be worst case scenario, but I don't really see her as scum here at all.

Adorable is almost conf-town, Fate sought paranormal activity, this probably means the final scum is the ghost Boo. Being loved would make absolutely zero sense with the flavour, and Peach on the other hand with bodyguard makes much more sense. Also claiming Bodyguard as scum would be laughable.

[wgeurts]

Actually, I think there's a way to force the scum to kill someone too.

Adorable, I'm so confident you're town that I want you to randomly target either me or HPE. I need HPE to track adorable and claim who they targeted last night. If HPE doesn't call it correctly, we know they're fakeclaiming. Otherwise, Adorable dies tonight. Leaving three and just a minor possibility of a factor less.

[wgeurts]

If they chose to let both Adorable and HPE live we both verify Adorable and HPE. Easy game.

[wgeurts]

Actually, I think there's a way to force the scum to kill someone too.

Adorable, I'm so confident you're town that I want you to randomly target either me or HPE. I need HPE to track adorable and claim who they targeted last night. If HPE doesn't call it correctly, we know they're fakeclaiming. Otherwise, Adorable dies tonight. Leaving three and just a minor possibility of a factor less.

READ THIS ADORABLE AND HPE

[wgeurts]

Hopefully this game just ends here and RR is keeping up the act for the sake of it

[wgeurts]

Actually, in the very unlikely scenario that HPE is scum, then they have to kill adorable or me. Peta never dies there. If they target me and it goes through 50% as Adorable BG's HPE, then we have an end game of HPE/Adorable/Peta. Wherein HPE could claim they saw Adorable BG them.

So Adorable has to randomly pick one of me, Peta, HPE, or even nobody to target tonight if we don't win now.

Then if I don't get protected, 75%, and I die, HPE still has to claim a 33% on Adorable targeting either Peta, nobody or themselves. This would confirm HPE as scum if wrong. It wouldn't hard confirm anyone if right, just a very fortunate forced guess but does tip likelhoods.

If scum shoot nobody, HPE has to claim the target and there's a 25% chance they randomly guess it correctly. At this point likelihood strongly tips in favour of them being town as they also had no reason to out me as town earlier.

I straight up think we just eliminate Peta in these scenarios unless HPE gets it wrong, likelihood dictates we win the game. Either that or Adorable dies and we just play a 3 man without adorable.

[wgeurts]

Can you stop ending the day early like that.

I don't like sunlight

[wgeurts]

I haven't read where I left off. I only skimmed and saw wgeurts vote.

Tonight you pick me, HPE, Peta or nobody to bodyguard. Tomorrow if both you and HPE are alive, make HPE claim who you targeted as they need to track you. If they're wrong end the game by removing HPE. If they're right remove Peta.

[wgeurts]

unless I've mis remembered HPE's role in which case lol all the past posting

[wgeurts]

I haven't read where I left off. I only skimmed and saw wgeurts vote.

Tonight you pick me, HPE, Peta or nobody to bodyguard. Tomorrow if both you and HPE are alive, make HPE claim who you targeted as they need to track you. If they're wrong end the game by removing HPE. If they're right remove Peta.

Yeah I think you always do this, skip the discussion, no room for manoeuvring. Either HPE gets outed as scum or you flip Peta.

[wgeurts]

Yeah Petas only option is to go for me as there's no world I can be convinced to vote HPE, I'll read up, but Peta isn't town.

[wgeurts]

Although I must ask why you didn't track adorable

[wgeurts]

I want to note I've got work shifts back to back until Saturday, I'm posting then

[wgeurts]

I'm sorry, this week has just been incredibly busy. Cooked for family on Saturday and had a practice hike for this July today. Was hoping to have time between then but I haven't. Not a fortunate week for this to start in, actually have tomorrow and Tuesday completely empty though

[wgeurts]

I'm sorry, this week has just been incredibly busy. Cooked for family on Saturday and had a practice hike for this July today. Was hoping to have time between then but I haven't. Not a fortunate week for this to start in, actually have tomorrow and Tuesday completely empty though

[wgeurts]

Why did that post twice on mobile

[wgeurts]

It doesn't particularly matter if he voted now as you need to vote too, and I'm assuming your town so a lack of insta hammer would lead to me voting Peta.

[wgeurts]

It doesn't particularly matter if he voted now as you need to vote too, and I'm assuming your town so a lack of insta hammer would lead to me voting Peta.

On train home now.

[wgeurts]

God I hate mobile MS

[wgeurts]

Yeah I'm town and I'm sorry my life has been so hectic this week