Open 105: Crush Mafia (Game Over) before 714

[Crazy]

/confirm

Charter, this isn't Crush Nightless. It's just Crush, because Nightless has 6 players. So the Lyncher doesn't have to die for the town to win.

[Crazy]

If the target is lynched, the game is over and the lyncher wins.

[Crazy]

Meh, whatever.

Ortolan is obviously the lyncher anyway; all we have to do is not lynch who he says we should.

[Crazy]

Love how he left ortolan out of the ecuation for doing the same thing Nat did.

Oh...so he did.

Unvote, Vote ortolan

First one to do it logic? Then again, Natirasha's self vote was weirder...ah well, I like the logic of first.

Anyway, tajo, any other reason to real vote me beyond that oversight of mine?

Ort voted himself because of my little joke during the confirmation phase.

Nat always self-votes himself. Whether it's productive or not can be debated, but he

always

does this, so it's never scummy.

[Crazy]

Vote: No lynch

Hmm, I've thought about that. It didn't seem like a great idea to me.

Affect on Mafia:
-None

Affect on Town:
-One less lynch to hit mafia.
-Possible chance of lyncher/lynchee getting Night-Killed.

Affect on Lyncher:
-One less lynch to get his target lynched.

Is a 2 scum, 4 town scenario better than a 2 scum, 4 town, 1 lyncher scenario? Maybe slightly; maybe not. And there's also a chance that we'd get a 2 scum, 3 town, 1 lyncher scenario, and I know that can't be better. IMO, the lyncher is a smaller threat than the mafia (assuming random moves, the lyncher wins 21.1% of the time and the mafia win 43.3% of the time), so I'm not in favor of NLing just to handicap the Lyncher.

[Crazy]

Darox is the lyncher

Vote: Darox

I think I might know why you're saying this, but care to clarify? And why do we want to lynch the lyncher anyway?

[Crazy]

It was basically a joke. What did you think I meant?

and why do you want to no lynch Darox?

That the lyncher might support a no-lynch in order to distance himself from being the lyncher. Or possibly wish his lynch target was NKed so he could become town.

[Crazy]

Hi there. I will post a little later this evening, but with a cursory glance, I'd just like to comment that lynching a lyncher doesn't necessarily help us. That seems like an odd initial reaction.

I agree with this. Whose reaction are you referring to?

[Crazy]

TV- sorry, I did mean random self-vote. You cited as a reason for voting Ortolan the fact that he self-voted first, and now you're saying that it isn't really scummy. So, can you clarify why you think he's scummy?

I don't think he's overly scummy. But there isn't much better out there at the time. Self voting in random phase deprives town of some information.

Ironically, sometimes the discussion of a self-vote leads to more information than a random vote.

Also,

Vote: Darox

, at least until he answers the question about No-Lynch.

[Crazy]

So, you dont think scum could have made that question to look like a lyncher?
In all fairness, that question seems odd, really odd.
Crazy, you havent even looked at my post. Are you the lyncher?

No, I'm not. I'm town. And yes, ortolan asking that question was just fine. My comment was within the spirit of the RVS.

[Crazy]

One thing to remember, however, is that the scum don't know who the lyncher is, either, and they have just as much reason to be afraid of the lyncher as the town. Now, lyncher-hunting isn't really pro-town or pro-scum, because the lyncher is a threat to both sides.

So a scum giving a fake lyncher-suspect is almost equivocal to a town giving a fake scum-suspect. So, basically, it's not something I see happening.

[Crazy]

and the mafia don't mind "technically" coming second to the lyncher, then if they realise who the lyncher is they may support them.

Well, if that's the case, then yes, your point stands better. But this is not the way to play this game. Realize if it

was

, then if we mislynched Day 1, and the scum killed a non-lynchee townie Day 2, then the scum and lyncher could easily pull of a joint win.

That scenario might work for Jester Mafia, but the lyncher needs to be an enemy to all factions for this game to work. And since the original game plan had the game end immediately if the lynchee was lynched, the only way to play this game is to count 2nd place as a loss.

Crazy, by lyncher-hunting, are you talking about just figuring out who the lyncher is, or are you talking about actually trying to get the lyncher lynched?

I mean figuring out who the lyncher is, since lynching the lyncher does nothing but put us in Lylo.

[Crazy]

On second thought, it is actually beneficial for scum to call someone else as a likely lyncher target, not to discredit their arguments, but to make them a nonviable lynch target, in the case that they were their scum-partner.

What do you think of that, ortolan? As I see it, someone that says "Player X is the lyncher" is more likely scum defending their scum-partner rather than scum trying to discredit all of a townie's arguments.

[Crazy]

Hi, there, scumpartner.

That original comment was a joke, btw. And besides, I'm not saying that people calling someone the lyncher might still be honesthearted town (or scum); just that's another option. Still, I don't see the possibility of scum accusing townies of being the lyncher to discredit their arguments as very probable.

[Crazy]

I get what crazy is saying I just don't see that as what happened. This type of game feels more like something where scum will hide under the radar to figure things out.

Like Darox, you mean?

[Crazy]

Unvote

L-1's not necessary. I'll give Darox the benefit of the doubt and assume he has logic that he'll post soon.

[Crazy]

Unvote

L-1's not necessary. I'll give Darox the benefit of the doubt and assume he has logic that he'll post soon.

This is a distinct possibility.

I want to see what happens first before I verbally assault ortolan for being mafia though.

Err, what do you expect to happen if you don't post any reasoning? Except ortolan's OMGUS-y reaction?

[Crazy]

Hmm, I'll look into this game tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

[Crazy]

Wait, need to add something.

Now the reason my argument thing that I just said can't apply to all situations in the game of mafia is that Darox doesn't seem to be giving any effort to try to look town. The things that make him "scummy" here are things that scum could just avoid, like the pointless votes, weird answers, etc. It's when people are doing that stuff while

trying

to look like they're not doing it when that's scummy.

I've said something to this effect in Lovers' Multiball, in which I was pro-town.

Pwnz's vote was silly bandwagoning. I don't really know how to take that, but generally I'm more suspect of the people that are

trying

to look town.

[Crazy]

Or he could be making this in purpose so you can think he isnt scum. You know, WIFOM.
Ive heard Darox is a good player. Do you think its possible he is doing this?

That's pretty heavy. I'm not saying that it couldn't be possible, but since I'm about the only person I know that views some really scummy things as non-scummy, I doubt Darox is doing that... unless if he knows my meta that well from Lovers' Multiball... which I doubt.

My guess, he's just acting lazy this game and not bothering to put the pro-town face on. And generally, the people that do that IMO are more likely to be town than scum.

Crazy, I'd also like to know why you think Darox the lynchee. Is it just because he's come close to a lynch? Who do you think is the lyncher, then?

Also, do you have any reasoning that doesn't depend on WIFOM?

Someone's got to be the lynchee, and Darox has come close to a lynch several times for IMO arbitrary reasons. I'd say farside, then ort as the lyncher.

For the WIFOM question,

not really

. I always say that everything in mafia is WIFOM, or nothing is, depending on how you look at it. For me, I don't run away from situations that seem WIFOM-ish. Which is why I like WIFOM-loaded games like this/Jester/etc.

Nice. You've used WIFOM to cover WIFOM logic. I'm also starting to get the feeling you're the lyncher. Early on, you tried to convince everyone Orto was the lyncher, which I'm pretty certain is not the case. Also, you said

That thing with Ort at the beginning was a joke...

which is, basically, a threat to anyone who tries to discuss who they think the lyncher is. Is Darox your target?

No, I'm not saying that. That quote was a response to Ort saying "people are calling me the lyncher so they can discredit my arguments." I say, uhh, no, even "insert quote" is more likely than scum doing that.

Besides, I don't really have to defend myself from being the lyncher. If you guys think I'm the lyncher, I don't really care. All I can do is point a finger at farside.

See the problem I have is Darox usually makes some effort that I can read and not just post to post. That is my biggest issue. I find it anti-town to say the least. Trouble is I really don't have a good read on many others.

See, she stays on the wagon because the target is "anti-town." *eyeroll*

Also note farside has kept her vote on Darox the whole game.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

WIFOM reason, but I'd rather not lynch you today.

Awesomeness. Right after he said he'd support ort's decision in lynching Neko, since Neko had been his second pick. But note KMD's original post when he was replacing in. The last order he posted was

Biggest scum reads:
1.ortolan
2.Tajo
3.Darox
4.Neko

So yeah, my guess:

Scum - ort & Kmd
Lyncher - farside
Lynchee - Darox
Town - Me, Tajo, Neko

Vote: ortolan

, even though it's L-1, it's late enough in the day for it.

[Crazy]

Yes, but you had said:

ortolan, I can go for a neko lynch. See my catchup post. I almost voted neko over Darox.

[Crazy]

Farside, were you the lyncher or the goon? You can't possibly be town, or the godfather either.

[Crazy]

I'd argue my case, but really there's no point... either farside is the lyncher and we've just lost, or she's scum and we lynch her tomorrow.

So... pff.

[Crazy]

Bah. Congrats farside; single-player wins are cool (except for jesters).

Yeah, it was me/neko. He was the GF.

That comment about Darox that made everyone think I was scum was actually the only thing I did this game that I can truly say I

would

do as town. I

did

think he was the lynchee, actually. Ah well.

[Crazy]

well I picked the two scum, I certainly have no regrets about my play this game

I think this setup is a bit scum-biased especially when compared to say Carbon 14 (which not only has only 2 scum but has potentially useful town-investigative roles).

That and it was effectively 3 townies 4 scum this game anyway

Yeah, but you have to take into account that if the GF is lynched, that's an instant town win. You don't have that in Carbon-14.

Also, I think Carbon-14 is slightly unbalanced, btw.

Meh, I would have thought ort/KMD was scum even if I was town. Though maybe I wouldn't have put him at L-1 then.

[Crazy]

Meh, I would have thought ort/KMD was scum even if I was town. Though maybe I wouldn't have put him at L-1 then.

Because I wasn't willing to lynch him, right?

Yeah.