Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[Donempire]

I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.

I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.

Contrary to this i believe a no-lim is the worst option. Best outcome is we elim scum, 2/9 chance, and the next best option would be to elim a pretender to reduce the amount of bogus results, as well as clearing the rolelist. Even with a mafia pretender the chance in 1/3, and this is without considering that we will scumhunt raising the probability of a good elim to %100

7 Days is plenty of time. We'll find something. And at this point claiming on the spot shouldn't put too much pressure even for important roles per the pretender rolls. We march forward.

[Donempire]

So, filler post. I'm playing in my finals week so thats why i have not been posting at all. I have to take a break now and prepare for one of my exams. After this i'll give the thread a read through and then be afk for another day for another important exam, i believe after tomorrow i'll be free to talk further. Sorry about this.

[Bingle]

Merlyn is probably town for the meta read. Also the meta read is shit.

[JasonWazza]

Why is it you think both can't be true?

This seems to be a thing that i've come back to that you can't think it's both a worthwhile policy lim, and also scummy, can it be explained to me how exactly this makes sense?

So, to clarify:

There are several different options here:

You think I am an idiot, and therefore a detriment to town regardless of my alignment -> Policy lim.
You think I am intentionally trying to push a bad strategy in order to cripple town's ability to solve -> Claiming is scummy.
You don't actually think either of those things and are just conveniently putting a vote on someone -> You are scummy.

I'm trying to narrow down which one is the case, which I believe to be option 2.

I think the claim is bad for town overall due to the fallout of targeting -> Policy Lim.
I think the claim is scummy because of the wording within it -> Voting for you.

In fact i'll take the claim apart to show why.

I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1.

So first line, the second half of this line is unnecessary, and seems to be deliberately setting up for a fail, the reason this can be bad, is i can see a Mafia X claiming seeking neighbor, we have no way of confirming that you aren't that, so this becomes a huge issue.

In fact to add to why this is dumb, we don't actually get confirmation of you not being fake just because a neighborhood doesn't spawn, it's either your fake, or the other seeking neighbor was roleblocked.

Second line is also an issue, your already getting the seeking neighbor to target you, why do you need to target a random player, this seems like setting up a scum kill, with a simple "well i said i'd target randomly" when in this case you should be targeting no one, if you are actually town, hence why i think you should be absolutely roleblocked.

[JasonWazza]

Merlyn is probably town for the meta read. Also the meta read is shit.

The meta read was just cancelling out the "your calling for a no lim, that is scummy" so how exactly is it shit?

[Bingle]

Kowahs approach to no lim in both games is actually very different. Here it is an active advocacy and there it was a very bland aside that was barely mentioned. The read is incredibly surface level, insomuch as the only actual similarity is that kowah says they think no lims are a good way to play D1.

With that said, merlyn was scum that game, so the broad strokes kowah doesn’t like to lim d1 takeaway is expected, and her scumgame appears to be decent and based around a fairly good read of the player base. If she had been scum here, I would expect a far more careful meta read than the one that only barely resembles this one, and that she simply linked the game without attempting to justify it with context supports that it was a very cursory thing.

You were in that game, does it seem at all similar to kowah’s D1 here?

[JasonWazza]

Kowah hasn't done much D1 here to go off, personality seems the same, i don't think he has done anything read worthy at this point though.

Though that's also coming from someone that uses Meta mostly as a rule out of reads rather then a generator of reads.

[Bingle]

Why is it you think both can't be true?

This seems to be a thing that i've come back to that you can't think it's both a worthwhile policy lim, and also scummy, can it be explained to me how exactly this makes sense?

So, to clarify:

There are several different options here:

You think I am an idiot, and therefore a detriment to town regardless of my alignment -> Policy lim.
You think I am intentionally trying to push a bad strategy in order to cripple town's ability to solve -> Claiming is scummy.
You don't actually think either of those things and are just conveniently putting a vote on someone -> You are scummy.

I'm trying to narrow down which one is the case, which I believe to be option 2.

I think the claim is bad for town overall due to the fallout of targeting -> Policy Lim.
I think the claim is scummy because of the wording within it -> Voting for you.

In fact i'll take the claim apart to show why.

I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1.

So first line, the second half of this line is unnecessary, and seems to be deliberately setting up for a fail, the reason this can be bad, is i can see a Mafia X claiming seeking neighbor, we have no way of confirming that you aren't that, so this becomes a huge issue.

In fact to add to why this is dumb, we don't actually get confirmation of you not being fake just because a neighborhood doesn't spawn, it's either your fake, or the other seeking neighbor was roleblocked.

Second line is also an issue, your already getting the seeking neighbor to target you, why do you need to target a random player, this seems like setting up a scum kill, with a simple "well i said i'd target randomly" when in this case you should be targeting no one, if you are actually town, hence why i think you should be absolutely roleblocked.

This concern over targeting fallout is very interesting to me. What do you expect a theoretical mafia seeking neighbor loses in the world of track guilties by outing their target the day after? “You targeted X, who was killed. Why?” Would still have the very obvious conclusion of “I thought they were town and I wanted to neighborize them.”

As far as whether I should be specifically tracked or roleblocked… you have put a lot more effort into targeting the tracker and roleblocker here than I have. I’m an objectively safe roleblock target, because roleblocking won’t actually stop anything. I’m an objectively bad scum track target, because explicitly I will be visiting and the stand to gain no information from doing so. But absolutely nothing about my claim makes me a better doctor or tracker or inspector or whatever target than anyone else, and the motivation you claim to see here just doesn’t exist.

There is a scum reason to claim seeking neighbor, and that is to falsely confirm yourself as a pretender, but every mechanical issue you seem to have with my play is pretty much nonsense.

[Bingle]

Kowah hasn't done much D1 here to go off, personality seems the same, i don't think he has done anything read worthy at this point though.

Though that's also coming from someone that uses Meta mostly as a rule out of reads rather then a generator of reads.

Do you agree that the games are only very superficially similar?

[Bingle]

Anyways, it’s two in the morning and I had a 14 hour day, so I’m going to crash, but I hope we can real time back and forth soon. I think I can get a solid bead on you early (my main account is Jingle and iirc we both played a lot with ETL).

[JasonWazza]

Kowah hasn't done much D1 here to go off, personality seems the same, i don't think he has done anything read worthy at this point though.

Though that's also coming from someone that uses Meta mostly as a rule out of reads rather then a generator of reads.

Do you agree that the games are only very superficially similar?

I mean i agree and i don't, i think for the purpose it was pulled up it's useful enough,

and i think the difference you seem to be attributing might just be a Newbie having had a few more games on site and learning as they go

just looked and this line doesn't make sense since they had a few games on the site before then, but it still maybe feels like a Newbie learning that voicing that so adamantly might not be worth it, i dunno, definitely feels like he is calling it out differently as an option either way.

[JasonWazza]

This concern over targeting fallout is very interesting to me. What do you expect a theoretical mafia seeking neighbor loses in the world of track guilties by outing their target the day after? “You targeted X, who was killed. Why?” Would still have the very obvious conclusion of “I thought they were town and I wanted to neighborize them.”

The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't).

As far as whether I should be specifically tracked or roleblocked… you have put a lot more effort into targeting the tracker and roleblocker here than I have. I’m an objectively safe roleblock target, because roleblocking won’t actually stop anything. I’m an objectively bad scum track target, because explicitly I will be visiting and the stand to gain no information from doing so. But absolutely nothing about my claim makes me a better doctor or tracker or inspector or whatever target than anyone else, and the motivation you claim to see here just doesn’t exist.

Inspector yeah definitely not, Tracker would make sense if they think a Roleblocker is unlikely to target you, Doctor can be worth it if they think you are town, and scum are potentially going to kill you to stop info (hint: Mafia might have a Seeking neighbor, and changing them to just a killer instead is beneficial.)

There is a scum reason to claim seeking neighbor, and that is to falsely confirm yourself as a pretender, but every mechanical issue you seem to have with my play is pretty much nonsense.

The main mechanical issue i have, is your role is inherently useless, and claiming to try and out yourself as a pretender is unnecessary.

Not to mention this can delay actual Seeking neighbor's from actually getting linked, to prove themselves real (which again for the most part is just useless but eh).

[Appearance]

@mod

v/la 4 june to 11 june

i'll still try to be active but it'll prob be less frequent

[Deltabreedy]

Getting a bit frustrated with this, I shan't lie.

I raise a point about the language being used by a player, and how it points to a more informed (read: mafia) perspective, and three of you jump down my throat?

It feels like I'm being told that trying to game-solve is bad and to be honest the votes on me are all significantly worse and reactionary than my votes which have at least had a smidge of thought put into them.

--

I really don't see the value in no-limming D1. That's pretty universal - I would take a no-lim over the lim of someone that I think 99%+ to be town, but that's a pretty rare occurrence.

In this game it still doesn't make sense as a strategy to push a no-lim. We don't need a full playerbase in order to generate information, and to be honest even from a mechanical perspective - shit will be easier to work out if we have less players.

I'm a bit miffed at the focus on mechanical solving in D1 over plain old scumhunting - I do genuinely feel like Merlyn has something to hide on this because of how they described Kowah's actions as Not Scum Indicative, rather than intimating that it isn't certain.

Clearing someone of scumhood through purely meta reeds less than 100 posts into the game just doesn't scream town so my vote is on Merlyn for now.

Those of you with votes on me in particular, I'd encourage you to commit to game solving and telling me why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.

[Kowahbunga]

I don't believe in meta reads at all and believe there is no way to use another game than this one to solve this game.

I think Merlyn's read on me is weak at best. Perhaps I would have put more stock in it had they given an opinion on what I was saying this game, rather than an opinion on me based on their experience with me from this game and another game.

[Kowahbunga]

VOTE: Bingle

I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake.

[Bingle]

why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.

Not the reason I'm voting you?

I don't particularly agree with the angle you're pushing merlyn on, I just think it's awkward that your talking to/about the no lim thing and haven't addressed that apparently it was a thing from multiple people. What do you think about Kowah, atm?

WRT your Merlyn case, I understand your sentiment but I don't think it's compelling on its own and also I think that letting merlyn address it is more likely to give information than if I explain what I think is the case. If she is informed and slipping here, I don't really want to let her off of the leash and am just content to let you do the pushing there, even though I expect it'll come to nothing.

[Bingle]

The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't).

See, this bit feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth to me. Either it's good for people to specifically target me (I don't think this is the case) and your argument that me outing has helped that along, or it's not necessary for other roles to specifically be targeting me (The actual case) and people should basically be ignoring my claim for all targeting purposes. Which means your policy reason for wanting to lim me is nonsense. Literally the only impact my claim should be having on the game is that specifically neighbors should be targeting me. The claim doesn't mean I can't be scum, so I'm still a fine choice for someone looking to investigate, but it also doesn't make me scum, which means that I'm not an auto investigate. There's not much difference between trying to narrow down a roleblocker or doc or tracker based on who they target and their read on said player compared to say, a target massclaim.

Either roles SHOULD be targeting me, in which case, giving them that knowledge is good for town or they SHOULDN'T necessarily be targeting me, in which case the information provided by my claim is entirely meaningless and no less damning than a pseudoclaim strat would already be.

[Bingle]

I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake.

I think this is probably a result of my RL circumstances, but valid.

[Bingle]

I think overall this game has a strange preoccupation with the what over the why, when generally I think scumhunting should emphasize the exact opposite.

[JasonWazza]

I think overall this game has a strange preoccupation with the what over the why, when generally I think scumhunting should emphasize the exact opposite.

I mean no one is talking for the most part.

Appearance has done fuck all, Donempire posted saying they wouldn't read something, then voted for you, for seemingly no reason, Invis parked a vote on Delta and then did nothing, Poltical clout has tailed the vote on Delta for no real reason.

Like just to be clear, these votes on Delta are bad, this is just Delta being Delta, and honestly i think it's town Delta myself.

Kowah is probably also town, Bingle still feels scummy but seems like it might just be mech clash, and Merlyn i'm still unclear on.

UNVOTE: Bingle
VOTE: Invisibility

You should know Delta already better then this, so why exactly is Delta the person you are jumping on?

[GuyInFreezer]

People have been prodded.

[Invisibility]

sorry hi

[Invisibility]

I have nothing to say about mechanical stuff cuz I am bad at mechanical stuff

[Invisibility]

You should know Delta already better then this, so why exactly is Delta the person you are jumping on?

why should I know Delta already better than this? Does Delta get a free pass for making bad reads cuz it's their meta? That's silly