Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.02

Merlyn (1):

Deltabreedy

Appearance (1):

Merlyn

Bingle (2)

Donempire, Kowahbunga

Invisibility (2):

Appearance, JasonWazza

Deltabreedy (2):

Bingle, Invisibility

Not Voting:

Political Clout

With

9

alive,

5

votes to Eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-06-09 16:17:41)

[Invisibility]

I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically

do you think I was whiteknighting Kowah too?

[Appearance]

catching up
will post later when i get time

[Kowahbunga]

Kowah, Invis and Delta- you are all saying that I have a weak read on Kowah, but I didn't say I was townreading Kowah at all. Seriously, here is the entire post:

I don't find it scummy for Kowah to suggest this, because I've played with them before when he was town and he did the exact same thing. I'm not saying he's right (I have no idea if he's right bc I've never seen anyone do it yet), but it's not scum indicative of them.

It's two whole sentences long. Delta said a thing that Kowah said was scummy, and I said it wasn't scummy bc I've seen him do it as town. I reiterated that it's not scum indicative. I didn't say he was a townread at all, I was saying it's NAI. Which, you know, it is.

I don't actually have any townreads yet at all, you're all leaning a little scummy to me lol.

I get what you're saying, but you have to also understand that you said "I don't find it scummy" and "but it's not scum indicative of them" - I'm sure you can see how we came to that conclusion.

[Political Clout]

I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically

do you think I was whiteknighting Kowah too?

no but now that you mention it let me check. I guess it can sorta be seen that way not really? although you don't really interact with kowah at all. which is weird because you're asking me about interacting with kowah. can you explain?

[Invisibility]

I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically

do you think I was whiteknighting Kowah too?

no but now that you mention it let me check. I guess it can sorta be seen that way not really? although you don't really interact with kowah at all. which is weird because you're asking me about interacting with kowah. can you explain?

I don't really see how I'm WKing Merlyn here. I feel like I've paid Kowah the same amount of mind. I do see your point that I should've let it play out cuz then I could see if Delta is focused on semantics or actual stuff but hindsight is 20/20

[Deltabreedy]

It's pretty odd to me that this plan is being attributed to kowah by a bunch of different people. Vizzy was the first one to bring it up.

Kowah had three posts advocating for no-lim when I posted. Invisibility had one.

Bit of a point here:

The semantics argument is a real lazy way to define and discredit my points.

Why would Merlyn go to the lengths of specifically saying that what I had pointed out was Not Scum Indicative due to meta, but then not comment on when Invisibility also advocated for a No-Lim? Maybe she's right, maybe Kowah is just a cautious player, but there's a certainty to what they said about it specifically being Not Scum Indicative, referencing meta from when Kowah was town.

I just don't see why Town!Merlyn would approach this with that kind of confidence in a 'this person isn't scum'-read. She then goes on to weirdly kind of recant this with the following:

I don't actually have any townreads yet at all, you're all leaning a little scummy to me lol.

Pretty easy card to play with just over 100 posts in the game.

#106 doesn't make sense.

[Deltabreedy]

Delta, what was scummy about Merlyn clearing Kowah of scumhood, as you put it?

How would Town!Merlyn be so convinced NotScum!Kowah through purely meta? What's the benefit for Town!Merlyn in doing this?

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.

[Bingle]

@ Delta, Overall I disagree with the interpretation that Merlyn's statement was analogous to "This isn't what scum Kowah would do" and took the statement as "This is a thing that Kowah would do as town as well". What do you think of her not seeing the differences between the previous game and this one in how Kowah treated the early day.

I actually kind of agree with you on the "I think everyone is scummy" point being odd, as I personally think that there have been quite a few interactions that look vaguely like town trying to figure shit out. Nothing concrete enough to write home about, but I have a few townleans and no firm scum leads at the moment, and to hear that she doesn't strikes me as strange.

What do you think about JW's simultaneous arguments that I'm scum for trying to pull attention to me and getting people to target me and statements that people should optimally be targeting me? My gut is telling me that it's unnatural to both believe that I should be targeted by a bunch of roles and that scum me would benefit from having all of those roles target me, but I think it might be a situation I'm too close to to analyze well.

[Bingle]

In either case, I think Delta is probably town here.

UNVOTE:

[Deltabreedy]

Tbh my kneejerk reaction to your claim was 'what the shit' so I'm a bit iffy on you and so JW's statements speak to me. I don't think I've seen them saying that people should target you though?

Also, has your read on Merlyn changed or do you still see her as town?

[Deltabreedy]

And I think my aversion to using meta kind of blinds me to the positives of it - so I've not got much input on the differences between that game and this one.

[Bingle]

Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle.

The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't).

This, especially when paired with the acknowledgment that seeking neighbor on its own isn't a role that should draw night actions other than seeking neighbor to it.

[Bingle]

Also, has your read on Merlyn changed or do you still see her as town?

I still think the fact that she's trying to apply the meta is townish, but I'm waiting on her to respond to my clarification of why the games were incredibly different regardless. She's roughly on par with Vizzy, who is purely a tonal read.

[Bingle]

Actually,

VOTE: PC

I feel like you're being very reactive here and Delta's 133 resonates. Do you have any reads you feel strongly about?

[Bingle]

And I think my aversion to using meta kind of blinds me to the positives of it - so I've not got much input on the differences between that game and this one.

It's not *really* a meta argument, although yeah, I am looking at another game.

Let me sum it up:

Merlyn knows from prior experience that Kowah thinks a D1 no lim is a real thing that should be done in non extraordinary situations, because Kowah said so in a game where they had no incentive to lie.
Merlyn looked at Kowah saying that and dismissed that as a reason to scumread Kowah.
Merlyn didn't register that the WAY Kowah was looking for a no lim would be a factor.

I think, just based on personality from skimming that other game and her posting so far in this one that as scum Merlyn would be more cautious about the read than town Merlyn, and that the brush off here is actually more likely to be from a town her than a scum her.

Which, I guess is still kind of a meta read, but more in that I'm using meta to try and get a feel for what kind of person she is and then reading her actions based on what I see there.

[Kowahbunga]

VOTE: Bingle

I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake.

can you give an example of one? because to me it's mostly been setup speculation which I read in a past game a long time ago iirc is either not alignment indicative or scum trying to generate posts, but everyone is doing it and it feels like this setup is particularly interesting so I do think it leans on nai since mostly everyone is doing it.

Spoiler:

Merlyn is probably town for the meta read. Also the meta read is shit.

Kowahs approach to no lim in both games is actually very different. Here it is an active advocacy and there it was a very bland aside that was barely mentioned. The read is incredibly surface level, insomuch as the only actual similarity is that kowah says they think no lims are a good way to play D1.

With that said, merlyn was scum that game, so the broad strokes kowah doesn’t like to lim d1 takeaway is expected, and her scumgame appears to be decent and based around a fairly good read of the player base. If she had been scum here, I would expect a far more careful meta read than the one that only barely resembles this one, and that she simply linked the game without attempting to justify it with context supports that it was a very cursory thing.

You were in that game, does it seem at all similar to kowah’s D1 here?

Do you agree that the games are only very superficially similar?

I think it came down to this, and I said the fake thing assuming Bingle would ask this question so I could get a response from them about but then they just agreed. So I'll use your question about my opinion to ask Bingle.

I'm reading the first quote two different ways and want to know which way you mean it.

"Also the meta read is shit."

@Bingle
Are you said the read Merlyn has is shit, or that just meta reading is shit?

[Kowahbunga]

said = saying*

[Bingle]

Meta itself is a tool that can be applied well. In this particular case, I think Merlyn saw a particular thing and jumped to an unwarranted conclusion without poking further: I think that what you did in that game and what you're doing in this game are different enough that asking why they are different can definitely lead to alignment indicative information.

Can you elaborate on why you think no lim is good WITH discussion here, compared to why you wanted no discussion for no lim in the other game?

[Political Clout]

*snip*

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.

I didn't see anyone calling me out I'll go check later. focusing on something else today everyone.

[JasonWazza]

This, especially when paired with the acknowledgment that seeking neighbor on its own isn't a role that should draw night actions other than seeking neighbor to it.

Yes it's not a role that should NATUARLLY draw actions to it, a claimed role is a different beast entirely (and how you claimed was ew, so more so), especially when the potential exists to ruin information gained.

Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle.

The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't).

This, especially when paired with the acknowledgment that seeking neighbor on its own isn't a role that should draw night actions other than seeking neighbor to it.

Guess i didn't type this, but these are all POTENTIAL thoughts for each of the roles, that each make sense in their own right, hence why i think the claim is bad.

I don't expect every role to visit you tonight, that is dumb.

[Invisibility]

Bit of a point here:

The semantics argument is a real lazy way to define and discredit my points.

:P

Why would Merlyn go to the lengths of specifically saying that what I had pointed out was Not Scum Indicative due to meta, but then not comment on when Invisibility also advocated for a No-Lim? Maybe she's right, maybe Kowah is just a cautious player, but there's a certainty to what they said about it specifically being Not Scum Indicative, referencing meta from when Kowah was town.

this feels a lot like Delta plucked a thought from what I had said without realizing that it doesn't make any sense. Have you considered that I might just not have a meta reason for this?

I just don't see why Town!Merlyn would approach this with that kind of confidence in a 'this person isn't scum'-read. She then goes on to weirdly kind of recant this with the following:

this unabashed misunderstanding probably comes from town lol

Delta, what was scummy about Merlyn clearing Kowah of scumhood, as you put it?

How would Town!Merlyn be so convinced NotScum!Kowah through purely meta? What's the benefit for Town!Merlyn in doing this?

I kinda like this post

[Invisibility]

VOTE: Political Clout yeah sure.

I feel like you're being very reactive here

I agree with this

I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically.

I find this statement a weird one to make when you were agreeing with me about Delta's read on Merlyn in 64

[GuyInFreezer]

Replacing Merlyn. If the replacement is not found by 3 days before the deadline, deadline will be frozen.