Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.03

Merlyn (1):

Deltabreedy

Appearance (1):

Merlyn

Bingle (2)

Donempire, Kowahbunga

Invisibility (2):

Appearance, JasonWazza

Political Clout (2):

Bingle, INvisibility

Not Voting:

Political Clout

With

9

alive,

5

votes to Eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-06-09 16:17:41)

[Bingle]

Actually,

VOTE: PC

I feel like you're being very reactive here and Delta's 133 resonates. Do you have any reads you feel strongly about?

*snip*

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.

I didn't see anyone calling me out I'll go check later. focusing on something else today everyone.

[Bingle]

a claimed role is a different beast entirely

I don't really think it is? Like, a VT claim isn't any more likely than an unclaimed slot for a doctor to target. And a person pseudoclaiming a target on a UTR is naturally more likely to be a doctor than a person pseudoclaiming a target on a scummy lurkerslot. I can maybe grok that you thought other people might have decided to target me based on the claim given Kowah's reaction, but legitimately that shouldn't happen and I didn't even consider that it would. I had the nullest of null claims and it should have approximately no influence on anyone without a SN rolecard as far as I am concerned.

Your clarification does make me feel a bit better about you though.

[Bingle]

Replacing Merlyn. If the replacement is not found by 3 days before the deadline, deadline will be frozen.

Sadge.

[Deltabreedy]

Invis are you good?

Cause I was talking about Merlyn, not you.

[GuyInFreezer]

Black replaces Merlyn

[Invisibility]

Invis are you good?

Cause I was talking about Merlyn, not you.

which thing are you talking about

[Invisibility]

hi Black!

[Black]

Hi everyone!

[Bingle]

Lies and slander.

[Black]

I tried to skim but this game started fast on page 1

Let me get my coffee and then I'll digest everything

[Kowahbunga]

Meta itself is a tool that can be applied well. In this particular case, I think Merlyn saw a particular thing and jumped to an unwarranted conclusion without poking further: I think that what you did in that game and what you're doing in this game are different enough that asking why they are different can definitely lead to alignment indicative information.

Can you elaborate on why you think no lim is good WITH discussion here, compared to why you wanted no discussion for no lim in the other game?

I believe I mentioned this but it was probably brief.

This game everyone is a town power today. So scum will shoot tonight and will hit one. Of course, best case is they snag a pretender. But until that flip happens, everyone is (and by is I mean they personally) are of the belief they're a town power. So from that POV, scum cannot find a town power they want to find. There is no way for them to say in scum chat "x is a town pr" and especially no real way for them to say "x is a specific town pr". With that now said, the point in the previous game, and others, is that hiding the town PRs with no conversation and just no lim voting allows a greater chance for all town prs to make something happen N1, gives scum nothing more than a shot in the dark to locate one, and to me the odds say N1 will be better for town a majority of the time if played like that.

In this game, since every town can submit a night action tonight, then might as well talk to help town decide who they want to target. Because it's essentially just a shot in the dark for scum on who actually to kill. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if scum have already decided. If scum has anyone who knows the general player base well enough, they've probably already got it in their head who is the most dangerous townie to keep around from a pure scum hunting POV and will just off that person tonight.

[Bingle]

/oog

Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that not all power roles are equal. Generally speaking, (and this is speaking not as a player but as a designer and reviewer of games, especially opens and mechanically complex closeds) the impacts of town choosing to no eliminate are a concern that is overlooked quite often in the design process, but that's more a function of how often they're actually a good idea. I am not a reviewer who disregards the no elimination case. In this case, we have 3 miseliminations before we lose the game. A no lim strategy has to be strong enough to overcome the loss of an elimination, the natural detriment of being on evens (scum have more voting power in an evens setup), and the risk of a lucky scum shot taking out the power that would otherwise be making up for not advancing our wincondition.

No elimination is specifically bad in this setup (and, indeed, in almost any smalltown setup) because the actual level of power we have available to us is random. If we have an inspector, tracker, doc, roleblocker, and loyal checker who are all town, and enough of them are obviously town to be trusted when they claim. As it is, this setup offers literally no guarantees that any individual result can be trusted and greatly favors town eliminating a scum player early.

I'd be happy to discuss game theory in the post, but this is probably already more than I should do so in game, as it's not super relevant.

[Bingle]

I can kind of understand why Kowah thinks that discussion doesn't hurt the proposed no lim, fwiw, and at this point I agree that the belief is a genuine one.

Kowah, what do you think about Merlyn's meta defense of you? Reasonable, unreasonable, banana?

[Bingle]

Let me get my coffee and then I'll digest everything

Hell of a coffee.

[Black]

9 and 10 - this exchange made me lol. I'm sad I had to replace Merlyn instead of getting to play with her

13 - I don't like Jason pushing for D2 claims right out of the gate, even when I read it in an Australian accent

17 - this is the post that made me grab coffee. Reading it through...this makes more sense than what I thought Jason was getting at in #13 which was full claims. Anyone that has played with me knows I'm not a mech person at all so I don't know if this is the best play. It feels like having the information out there without the PRs having to hard claim would be good though

19 - this claim feels unnecessary. One thing confuses me:

If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.

What do you mean here? Maybe I'm not understanding the setup correctly. Pretenders know they are pretenders, right?

21 - wanting to end the day in a no-lim on page 1 is scummy af

23 - this feels like a fake realization, and followed by a massclaim proposal this just feels really bad

24 - I think Jason feels scummy here for the policy lim comment. Scum want to get rid of claimed roles. This angle makes sense for scum!Jason because then he wouldn't have to waste a NK on Bingle

28 - this feels like leading the Doc a little

39 - another no lim/cut the discussion post. How could this possibly be good for town? I know I said I'm not a mech person but cutting discussion short seems like it would be harmful in any setup

41 - I like this post from Delta and I agree

42 - my own slot comes in with a meta read on Kowah. Ok. This context helps a little I think

44 - oh no. Delta is getting into a language argument again lol. No, I don't think Merlyn's phrasing was scummy, but I may be a little informed

47, 48, and 49 - these feel a little weird from Appearance. I think it's just #49 actually. This reads "don't track me"


64 - feels weird and a little sheepy from PC


65 - this feels like Kowah is trending in the right direction as far as letting discussion develop before ending the day but I still think no limming is a bad idea. We should definitely yeet a scumread today


67 - I like this from Don and it indicates that he's really thinking about the game and the setup


70 - "pretenders who were told they were neighbors" ...ok so I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding the setup and Pretenders aren't told they are Pretenders. I think it was the sample role PM that made me think this? Idk


74 and 75 - these two Don posts give me town vibes


80 - I like this perspective from Bingle re: Kowah's two games. I townread the effort he's putting into solving this whole no-lim thing


88 - starting to feel like this is town!Delta here


93 - I'm not really a big fan of Bingle just accepting the "your posts feel fake" claim and not asking Kowah to elaborate


95 - this post feels scummy to me. There's an informed air about it. I agree that Delta feels town so far but Jason seems to have way more conviction here which doesn't really make sense to me. Also I don't get the Kowah TR at all, and the Bingle read is a little fence-sitty. It feels like Jason is going after Invis for poor reasons here

I have nothing to say about mechanical stuff cuz I am bad at mechanical stuff

Felt. But I'm trying...


102 - this feels like a town post from Invis


113 - I agree with the bulk of this and I townread this analysis

Delta, what was scummy about Merlyn clearing Kowah of scumhood, as you put it?

How would Town!Merlyn be so convinced NotScum!Kowah through purely meta? What's the benefit for Town!Merlyn in doing this?

Are we reading the same game? Merlyn said that particular behavior wasn't scum indicative but where did she say she was convinced Kowah was not scum?


135 - agreed

[Black]

Let me get my coffee and then I'll digest everything

Hell of a coffee.

Relax! My catch ups take time

[Black]

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me.

This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1

.

Yeah well so much for that...

[Black]

I think this is where I stand after reading

Black

Donempire
Bingle
Deltabreedy
Invisibility

Political Clout
Appearance

JasonWazza
Kowahbunga

VOTE: Kowah

[Invisibility]

Pretenders know they are pretenders, right?

they don't

[Invisibility]

another no lim/cut the discussion post. How could this possibly be good for town? I know I said I'm not a mech person but cutting discussion short seems like it would be harmful in any setup

yeah I was just trusting that everyone else knew what they were talking about LOL

[Invisibility]

like describe what you see here specifically in Delta town cuz it is not as obvious as you think it is

Town Delta is way more confrontational then Scum Delta, could be playing to meta, but i think it's good enough for this early.

though 105 feels a bit wonky even then, though Delta has a habit of arguing semantics a lot.

if you find some wonkiness in Delta's play how come it should be obvious that Delta is town to me? Still don't get this vote.

I've been back and forth as to whether or not Jason is town for their vote on me cuz like it kind of gave me genuine vibes vs it suggesting being informed like Black said. Ok now that I'm putting this into words I can barely justify the former so the latter is much more likely. 110 makes Jason's conviction even weirder

[Invisibility]

I like this post from Delta and I agree

does this include the part about Kowah being scummy for not pushing anything else?

[Black]

another no lim/cut the discussion post. How could this possibly be good for town? I know I said I'm not a mech person but cutting discussion short seems like it would be harmful in any setup

yeah I was just trusting that everyone else knew what they were talking about LOL

I'm a little surprised by this answer. I guess I just thought that you would know better since you seem pretty experienced

[Black]

I like this post from Delta and I agree

does this include the part about Kowah being scummy for not pushing anything else?

I don't really think not pushing anyone 40 posts into the game is scummy tbh