Open 105: Crush Mafia (Game Over) before 714

[ortolan]

/confirm

[ortolan]

One question just on the setup:

If the lyncher lynches their intended target does the game continue to decide 2nd place or end at that point? If the former then the lyncher would seem to be indifferent to who wins as they've already accomplished their win condition?

[ortolan]

Vote: ortolan

Checkmate, Crazy

[ortolan]

Darox is the lyncher

Vote: Darox

[ortolan]

It was basically a joke. What did you think I meant?

and why do you want to no lynch Darox?

[ortolan]

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.

Crappy argument. Explain to me how it's not a reasonable and expected question in an open setup, and why I wouldn't just pm the mod instead if I were the lyncher to avoid giving away lyncher-tells to such perceptive types as you

[ortolan]

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.

Crappy argument. Explain to me how it's not a reasonable and expected question in an open setup, and why I wouldn't just pm the mod instead if I were the lyncher to avoid giving away lyncher-tells to such perceptive types as you

Well then mafia who forgot to ask the question? I mean really anyone can PM a mod and ask a question.

Um...what? It was clearly a question about the setup, people can read too much into things

[ortolan]

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

It is extremely, extremely relevant to the game dynamics considering this is an open setup. I'm not discussing my pre-game question again, use it as a basis for suspicion of me and you can expect me to vote you

[ortolan]

Not enough content so far, beyond suspicious degrees of suspicion being placed on my setup question and a generic discussion of self-voting, so I will provide some:

TehVariable was obviously very careless to tunnel on Natirasha's self-vote when mine was in the post *directly before* his

Love how he left ortolan out of the ecuation for doing the same thing Nat did.

Oh...so he did.

Unvote, Vote ortolan

First one to do it logic? Then again, Natirasha's self vote was weirder...ah well, I like the logic of first.

Anyway, tajo, any other reason to real vote me beyond that oversight of mine?

Changing your justification post-hoc like this looks scummy.

Nat always self-votes himself. Whether it's productive or not can be debated, but he always does this, so it's never scummy.

Hmm...well...if he always does it...

And ortolan just changed his random vote, so we get that slight benefit.

Unvote

for now and we'll see what comes up.

Thanks for clarifying that, Crazy.

Withdraws his vote quicker than a flash. Not sure how to interpret at this point.

In Post 30 I jokingly vote Darox for his no lynch vote.

Crazy interprets it seriously and asks why I'd want to lynch the lyncher in Post 33.

Post 41:

Hi there. I will post a little later this evening, but with a cursory glance, I'd just like to comment that lynching a lyncher doesn't necessarily help us. That seems like an odd initial reaction.

A reply to something I didn't actually say...

Firstly my vote was intended as a joke. Secondly even if it had been serious I wonder why it would be interpreted as suspicious- the lyncher is an element of the game- to ignore them entirely seems unfair to the setup.

And furthermore you're making an entirely bizarre link that joke-voting for a potential lyncher entails actually wanting to lynch that person on the basis of them being the lyncher, regardless of what further discussion may reveal about whether it's in fact beneficial to lynch the lyncher. I don't see how this follows at all.

Post 42, farside22's first contribution which simply reiterates two points already made:

Hi everyone.
unvote:

Thanks nat self voting as usual. Don't know what to think about ortolan's set up question. Kind of agree with Crazy that he looks like the lyncher that want's more info.
@tajo: It was a direct question in regards to lyncher. Mafia tend to be able to talk for the first 24 hours in most games to get idea on who is who and what to say. Don't know if this game is different. Anyways if not then they probably asked would ask the mod via PM instead of in thread.
TehVariable; Why Nat over ortolan's self vote?

1) Back to setup question.

2) TehVariable targetting Nat over me.

I am still suspicious of people drawing attention to my setup question- it looks perfectly innocuous to me when I re-read it. I don't think a townie would make a big deal out of it. I see farside therefore as trying to ride on points others have already made, regardless of their validity. Same with the attitude to TehVariable. Scum often try to join bandwagons started by townies- in this case this seems a good explanation because I think the bandwagon (on me at least) had little validity and so anyone joining it must have a vested interest.

In Post 60 farside asks the question:

Why did you feel the need to ask the question?

Which I am suspicious of- it seems asking the question revealed an aspect of the setup that wasn't clear to begin with. And it is an open setup, so there is interest in everyone knowing precisely what rules we're playing with. Unless farside already knew the answer to my question somehow, which I doubt, surely the answer to why I asked the question (to clarify game dynamics for *everyone*) is obvious.

Then populartajo says in Post 61:

In all fairness, that question seems odd, really odd.

I disagree, and you get a + to scum likelihood for this (for the same reasons to farside).

I am also curious as to why you think this, from Post 36:

Crazy is prob town or the lyncher. Okbaythx.

[ortolan]

I can only say random vote phase

Random vote phases only apply to random votes. As of Post 22:

Vote Natirasha

Why would any one even vote for themselves ever? It's pretty much counterproductive and leaves no information.

You were no longer random-voting, as you'd given reasons for your vote (hence it not being "random")

Also, can someone quote for me the set up question that seems to be causing a bandwagon?

One question just on the setup:

If the lyncher lynches their intended target does the game continue to decide 2nd place or end at that point? If the former then the lyncher would seem to be indifferent to who wins as they've already accomplished their win condition?

[ortolan]

I mean, you could but it just felt weird, dont you think?

No.

Do you agree it looks weird if you were another player?

No.

The Crazy comment was based in the fact that I like his reasoning, therefore he isnt scum, therefore hes prob town or lyncher.

I don't see why the lyncher would be more inclined to use "good reasoning" than scum. Part of the thing about the lyncher is we don't know how they'll play it- they might actually not try to fulfill their win condition and hope their target gets NK'ed so they can play as a townie, or they might bide their time until day 2 to try to get their target lynched (in which case it seems possible this will entail scum getting 2nd place by virtue of the lyncher's work). The fact it's such a confusing role is why I asked for clarification in the first place.

[ortolan]

My last comments on the setup question:

It's still quite possible that ortolan asked the question as scum to try to figure out whether he should be looking for the lyncher, but I don't think it's necessarily a scummy thing to ask. I doubt he's the lyncher, but that's just a gut feeling.

The point is that you shouldn't be trying to interpret anything about my alignment based on the question- I should be equally likely to be any of the factions as I would otherwise be. Thus you should not conclude from me asking the question that I am "not the lyncher" or that I am the lyncher, or that I am scum, or that I am not scum.

Finally calling people scummy based on your question is OMGUS kind of comment. People are talking about what they find. You will be questioned to death about scummy things. It happens. If you are town you point out things you find scummy (which I note you did but most is based on those who asked you about your comment).

It is scummy to me. Whenever I re-read the question I wonder why anyone would even mention it. Thus when you do something scummy (obsessing about my setup question), expect me to hone in on you.

I really dislike this from TehVariable also:

I don't think the set up question was scummy, but I'm leaning ortolan being the lyncher. This however:

We shouldn't be trying to lynch the lyncher. We should be trying to lynch the mafia. Obviously we need to keep an eye out for lyncher tells so we don't let them win the game, but aside from that we should ignore him and focus on finding the mafia, which are a much bigger threat.

Is precisely right. So even if ort is the lyncher, we shouldn't lynch him based on that.

Seems like a good way for scum to discount my opinions on who should be lynched.

[ortolan]

Um...I'm not the one being close-minded, people attempting a narrow interpretation of the question are

[ortolan]

See Post 70. I never said *anyone* was scum as a result of discussing the question, I do think discussing it excessively is scummy however. It is possible I simply have a different intuitive response when re-reading the question to all 3 of you (it looks totally innocuous to me), in which case it is probably a null-tell both ways.

[ortolan]

I don't follow that logic Crazy

If scum convince town that any of the five non-scum players is the lyncher, they can then use this as an argument for discounting their arguments on who should be lynched- because presumably whoever the "lyncher" wants lynched is their lynch target. Scum gains one townie whose ability to convince town of scum is lessened, and loses nothing. They can still privately ponder who the lyncher is. There's also twice the chance of the lyncher being assigned a town-target than a mafia target, and if this is the case, and the mafia don't mind "technically" coming second to the lyncher, then if they realise who the lyncher is they may support them.

Thus there are many cases where mafia's interests are served by placing suspicion of the lyncher on any particular non-mafia player. Conversely, if the mafia convince town one of the mafia is the lyncher, this may help them fly under the radar to endgame.

[ortolan]

Unless I'm mistaken, a lyncher, by definition, is always given a town target.

Ahok, thanks for clarifying, if that's correct.

Nobody, town or scum, should be playing for second place, either. If they are, they should be replaced. One of the standard mafia rules is "play to win."

You're agreeing with me here. In post 65 I said:

the lyncher is an element of the game- to ignore them entirely seems unfair to the setup.

I certainly wouldn't play for second place but I still thought it prudent to consider others might.

[ortolan]

May I ask why you think farside and I are town populartajo?

[ortolan]

Farside is more gut than anything. And I think you are town because I dont think it would be a good play to be that confrontional this early. Also I think its either more probable that you are town defending with so-so reasoning than scum winning negative attention. Either that or you are agressive scum. How would you consider yourself?

I will have to go with the "not-scum" option in light of my role pm.

So, an

unvote

is overdue. Ortolan worries me the most so far. His defensiveness when being interrogated, and his threats to vote people for continuing to question him aren't sitting well with me. Also, I'm not sure I buy that his vote for Darox was a joke. It wasn't clear at all that it was a joke, and if it was, it really wasn't all that funny... it looks more like a cover to me at the moment.

Questions for you:

What about my response to reactions to my setup questions reads as defensive, and by extension scummy?

What made you think the content of my Post 30 was not a joke, and by extension how is this scummy?

[ortolan]

What do you think of that, ortolan? As I see it, someone that says "Player X is the lyncher" is more likely scum defending their scum-partner rather than scum trying to discredit all of a townie's arguments.

Ortolan is obviously the lyncher anyway; all we have to do is not lynch who he says we should.

Hi, there, scumpartner. Oh and hi there, Darox, you are also my scumpartner because I said the same thing to you (albeit jokingly, depending on whether you are talking to me or neko).

Do you remember threatening to vote people for questioning you? Yeah, that's not very pro-town.

I interpreted there as being implied suspicion in the questions. I did not think this suspicion was justified, thus I thought it likely to come from scum sources. In light of posts like populartajo's Post 80 I've considered I possibly misinterpreted the intent of the questions, however.

[ortolan]

That original comment was a joke, btw.

neko may disagree.

[ortolan]

Crazy, fyi I interpreted Post 113 as implying Darox and I are mafia and I was defending my scumbuddy by suggesting he was the lyncher. I was pointing out the fact you originally said I was the lyncher, interpreted with the same argument then also implies you are my scumbuddy and were defending me. Your original comment was a joke, but you'll see I said my comment about Darox was a joke also, so they are perfectly equivalent.

[ortolan]

It's hard to argue with that logic...

Because you didn't provide any

Vote: Darox

[ortolan]

EBWOP:

Unvote

Vote: Darox

I just realised you put me at L-1, including my own self-vote, with no reasoning. At least neko (barely) made an attempt to give justification for voting for me. How very scummy of you.

[ortolan]

Maybe you should listen to the 10% instead of riding crappy pre-existing wagons which were never properly justified to begin with.

[ortolan]

And I didn't intend the L-1 hypocrisy when voting Darox, I didn't realise he already had 2 votes

[ortolan]

Well you could either be: 1) waiting for a reaction from me, which you've gotten

2) Waiting for a reaction from other people including perhaps someone specific (which might include hammering me as you so kindly put me on L-1).

Hopefully you will reveal some method in the bad-ness but I'm increasingly skeptical.

[ortolan]

Increasing the apparent weighting you give to me being scum when I know for a fact I am not is having the sole effect of making me increasingly doubt your methodology for scum-catching.

[ortolan]

Darox can you please explain firstly why you think I'm scum and secondly why I had to wait to hear why, if you're town please give me a reason to take my vote off you.

[ortolan]

ArE YoU The JEsTeR?

Why on earth would we waste our time and resources lynching the lyncher? Doing so only helps the scum. This is exactly the sort of thing that has me worried about ortolan, in case you didn't notice.

It's hard not to consider this disingenuous when firstly I gave no indication of a desire to take my vote on Darox through to a lynch, and secondly I stated the fact four posts later that both my vote and suggestion he was the lyncher was a joke.

[ortolan]

Unvote

to promote discursion

[ortolan]

Unvote

to promote discursion

How do you think unvoting helps promote disucssion expect to ask why you unvoted.

FOS

Darox should have more to say then hi at this point. How about actually playing and scum hunting.

I don't want Darox to be hammered day one (as townies have done in 2 other open games I've played), if indeed there is an explanation for the stupid way he is playing. Darox: please explain whatever your "gambit" was meant to accomplish.

I stated the fact

four posts later

that both my vote and suggestion he was the lyncher was a joke.

That's the problem.

Elaborate.

[ortolan]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

This is exactly why I unvoted, to give him a chance to stop looking so scummy. He doesn't appear to have taken me up on the offer yet.

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

What led you to this conclusion?

[ortolan]

If he is considered a good player then I find it hard to believe he's town, he's not certainly not benefiting town by playing like this.

He's just left us hanging having placed a completely useless vote/attack against me

[ortolan]

Unvoting is, frankly, a shitty way to promote discussion. Sounds like an attempt to quietly sit on the sidelines. So, I'm keeping my vote.

Do you honestly believe I've in any way "sat on the sidelines" at all this game?

Another point: Crazy had previously also taken Darox off L-1 in Post 124, why didn't you (and farside) jump on him for doing it then as you've now done to me?

Finally, neko, if you thought the votes on Darox were useful (which they clearly weren't as he still hasn't explained whatever his "gambit" was supposed to accomplish), then when I withdrew my vote you could simply have supplemented it with your own in order to maintain the pressure. You didn't.

Now while I was considering re-voting Darox I'm thinking neko's escaped scrutiny for a lot of scummy behaviour this game. In addition to the points above, I am also skeptical of his suspicion of me. You need to explain what my scum motivation for posts 30 and 34 was. What was I trying to accomplish by voting (completely seriously!!!) for Darox for being the lyncher in Post 30, then withdrawing the suspicion in Post 34. Post 41 which you laid down while "re-reading" is just a hint that you find my play suspicious, probably to make a later vote look more justified. However the point you made here "while re-reading" wasn't even an original one, and had already been made by Crazy in Post 35.

It's still quite possible that ortolan asked the question as scum to try to figure out whether he should be looking for the lyncher, but I don't think it's necessarily a scummy thing to ask.

As you later went on to conclude I am scum, presumably with this as supporting evidence you still need to explain why under this hypothesis I did not simply pm the mod to ask.

And while I'm loathe to continue discussion of the setup question it seems to be the main point of your case against me (probably why the case is so weak) so I shall have to:

Ortolan worries me the most so far. His defensiveness when being interrogated, and his threats to vote people for continuing to question him aren't sitting well with me.

So it's not possible people are advancing scum agendas by tunneling on an innocent question?

It wasn't clear at all that it was a joke, and if it was, it really wasn't all that funny... it looks more like a cover to me at the moment.

Again, what was it a cover for? Without explaining what I was trying to accomplish as scum you're just fishing for reasons to vote me.

mmm I'm pretty sure I just said why. Do you remember threatening to vote people for questioning you? Yeah, that's not very pro-town. We need to question people on everything, even the little things (especially on D1), because that's the only chance we have of flushing out the scum.

This is what I've seen called "spouting protown platitudes without the knowledge behind them" in another game. You've latched onto the idea that "attacking people for asking questions is scummy" without looking at my clearly stated opinion that I did not think scumminess could be read into my initial setup question, which by extension is a grounds for suspecting anyone who tried to read scumminess into it. As I said, it's subjective whether this is the case, but unless you can prove my setup question was objectively scummy, then you can't prove that responding to and attacking people that portray me as scummy for asking it is itself scummy.

pop, do you play by the assumption that the scum aren't going to make mistakes? I'm just trying to get a feel for why you think ortolan is more likely town just because he'd be playing badly if he were scum... Also, now that ortolan answered your question to him, I realize that it was kinda a weird question to ask. What were you hoping to accomplish?

Again, I ask, what was my mistake? What was I trying to accomplish as scum, that I failed to?

Why on earth would we waste our time and resources lynching the lyncher? Doing so only helps the scum. This is exactly the sort of thing that has me worried about ortolan, in case you didn't notice.

You're trying to make the case against me look more substantial than it is. This all stems from you claiming I was attempting to get Darox lynched in Post 30 "for being the lyncher", which as I've said you're a long way from establishing successfully, especially in light of my almost immediate unvote. I have not seen any coherent hypothesis from you for me being scum- you're just latching on and trying very hard to read conventional scum-tells in my play without explaining my actions as scum holistically.

Vote: neko2086

[ortolan]

We can discuss the failure of your scum-catching methods when the game is over, but for now please present a case against me or unvote, friend.

[ortolan]

When you summarise your case like that it's really clear that it's just an attempt to read wiki-scumtells into my actions wherever possible.

And about my unvote: it was probably a pointless move, but it clearly had no impact on the game, if I thought Darox was scum I would happily re-vote him. I guess I could chalk it down to a combination of thinking he might be the lynch target (although very unlikely as he was sitting on L-1 for more than a day), wanting to insure against a newb hammering (as Crazy already did- you didn't answer in your post why he's not scummy for doing the same thing as me btw), plus him being so adamant about me being scum almost make me think he is townie being bad rather than scum himself.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

[ortolan]

What is the "WIFOM reason"?

and have any of your opinions changed about tajo, farside and Crazy from their more recent posts?

[ortolan]

why are you voting me Crazy?

Darox has given no reasons for voting me and neko's reasons are crap. If you're town it's one bandwagon you shouldn't be joining.

[ortolan]

And do you think I'm acting the same way I did as scum in the last open game we played together Crazy???

[ortolan]

Also,

My guess, he's just acting lazy this game and not bothering to put the pro-town face on. And generally, the people that do that IMO are more likely to be town than scum.

You seem oblivious to the fact this could equally be said of me. The main reason I seem to be attracting votes is drawing attention to myself with the setup question. And at least I'm playing properly, Darox is just laying down votes with no justification.

It's amusing both you and neko have argued Darox is the lynchee. It's not like people voted for him for say...voting without giving reasons or anything. If he were in fact the lynchee it's not like he wouldn't deserve to be lynched anyway.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

WIFOM reason, but I'd rather not lynch you today.

Awesomeness. Right after he said he'd support ort's decision in lynching Neko, since Neko had been his second pick. But note KMD's original post when he was replacing in. The last order he posted was

Biggest scum reads:
1.ortolan
2.Tajo
3.Darox
4.Neko

Ironically you are guilty of doing *exactly* the same thing in this very post. I see barely any mention of me the entire post (apart from suggesting I am the lyncher when Darox is the lynchee, LOL @ this considering I unvoted him and in the process brought further suspicion on myself- that sure seems consistent with being the lyncher to me!!!).

Yet at the end you conclude I'm likely to be scum with kmd. Not only does this contradict your earlier (ridiculous) suggestion I am the lyncher but is also completely at odds with the rest of the content of your post.

[ortolan]

as I've said, you don't really have a "case", more a selection of "wiki-scumtells"

Kmd, what is the "WIFOM Reason" you were talking about earlier?

[ortolan]

farside is the lyncher and I'm the target??? Just my luck.

wd Darox, your play was truly world-class

if by any chance farside isn't lyncher (4 unexplained hammer) then imo lynch tomorrow followed by neko

[ortolan]

Oh btw, if only for my own benefit, assuming farside is the lyncher, I'm calling out Crazy and neko as the scum-team (voting me for crappy and transparently crappy at that reasons)

[ortolan]

well I picked the two scum, I certainly have no regrets about my play this game

I think this setup is a bit scum-biased especially when compared to say Carbon 14 (which not only has only 2 scum but has potentially useful town-investigative roles).

That and it was effectively 3 townies 4 scum this game anyway

[ortolan]

Also, I think Carbon-14 is slightly unbalanced, btw.

Yer, I agree.