Open 107: Carbon 14 - Game Over! before 716

[Occam]

vote: Caboose

Cut the caboose and the train moves faster.

[Occam]

vote: Occam because he has a

razor

and he's not afraid to use it.

Fixed.

[Occam]

Some points:

1. L-2 is two votes, in a seven player game. Calling it L-2, Stef, makes it sound much more severe that it actually is.

2. Why aren't you voting Empking? More importantly, why haven't you unvoted yourself yet?

3. I don't think Empking vote for you because you unvoted - you self-voted. That makes me tempted to vote you, too. I was read a game, almost exactly the same setup as the one we're playing now, a seven player open setup, where someone self-voted on page one and was hammered on page two - that player was scum.

4. I

don't

think Empking is overstating or overreacting in this situation.

[Occam]

EBWOP: Point two should read:

2. Why aren't you voting for Empking, Stef? More importantly, why haven't you unvoted yourself yet?

[Occam]

[quote"Stef"]
L-2 is L-2. This isn't about semantics. Arguing about it changes nothing.
[/quote]

Actually, it's all about semantics. You can make something sound much worse than it is depending on the way you phrase it.

Omg... are you SURE i didn't unvote? [irony]Try reading the fine BOLDED parts. [/irony] I didn't vote for him because i'm not sure it warrants as a vote.

You apparently know the definition of "irony" about as well as Alanis Morissette... but aside from that, you're right, I did miss that you unvoted yourself. Congrats on that.

1. You say that two votes aren't a big deal even if they mean L-2 but you give an example regarding another game where the player who self-voted was hammered page two. That would make L-2 quite a big deal wouldn't it?

No, not really. L-1 is a big deal on page two though, but you don't seem to think so.

2. You feel the need to misrep empking to attack me. You count a self-vote that was unvoted in the same post as a big deal. You also invoke a "game" in which a player who self-voted was scum. That is utter crap and is misleading the town.

As you pointed out, I missed that you unvoted yourself, and yes... I did talk about a game where the player who self-voted was scum... what's your point? That's why I brought it up.

3. You further agree with empking in his points against me but you start of on the wrong premise. I didn't vote for him because i didn't have enough reason to. You on the other hand give me enough reason to:

OK, if that warrants L-1, than more power to you.

My advice would be:

1. Pay attention to the votecount.
2. Look up ironic.

@Empking:

No, I'm not claiming - I have two random votes on me, so...

[Occam]

P.S. Back off with the personal stuff such as "look up ironic" since me as a real person doesn't really concern you. If you look into other games i played you will find out that i don't react good to such remarks. As aggressive as i might be in the game i make no remarks to you as a real person. Please do the same.

If you say something insulting to me I don't feel awfully guilty about firing back.

Stef is right about occam. I want an Occam claim.

Stef realized she was wrong about me being at the majority for anything more than random reasons and decided against the claim, so don't group her in as if she agrees with you. Unless she does now.

[Occam]

It would imply you think it was premeditated as well as a mistake.

I just need to know which it was, is all.

Also

unvote - vote: Empking

[Occam]

I was in that game and no, Korts put himself at L-1 on page 1 and the cop hammered page 2. It's not the same situation; Stef is acting different now than Korts was then.

My point is simply that self-voting in a game with 7 players alive is not a good idea, and the only time I've seen someone do it, they turned out to be scum. Is that definitive? No. But I think it's worth bringing up.

[Occam]

@Cab - I don't see how a sinus headache would compel you to ask for a claim, but maybe that's just me. Not saying you didn't have a headache, just saying I don't know if I buy that as a viable reason for making a misstep.

[Occam]

How is it ANTI-town or SCUMMY to self-vote?

It's all situational. In this case, since you unvoted right away, it's not such a big deal. Like pretty much any other action in this game, it's never inherently scummy or anti-town - but it can be.

Here's an incentive to answer. vote Occam

Um... I would have answered anyways. And I can't take much of what you've said thus far with merit anymore - you've knowingly put me at L-1, this time, so there's no excuses.

[Occam]

Here:

Neither Mada nor ort, who are the other two players with votes on me right now (from the RV stage) have posted

since the RV stage

. Stef is taking advantage of the fact that there are two votes which don't need justification sitting on me to make it seem like he's justified in voting for me - and after the stink he made about being put at L-2... this is just ridiculous.

unvote - vote: stef

[Occam]

Scummiest ATM:

Stef
Caboose
Empking

I will try to condense my posts from here on out, I apologize for the triple.

[Occam]

You say that because the two RVS votes you have on you aren't justified means i'm not actually justified to vote for you?

No, it means you can put me at L-1 easily.

@Stef - If I'm so scummy, why did you just unvote? I don't get it...

[Occam]

Heh.. and even more to the point (since i didn't notice i was at L-1) you put me at L-1 based on an OMGUS vote. Are you scum much?

Here's the difference I see:

Stef (3) - Caboose (not random), Empking(not random), Occam(not random)
Occam (2) - Mada (random), ortolan (random)

[Occam]

@Mada:

The reason the scum was hammered in the other game I was talking about was for a self-vote, which the player who hammered him (icemane) seemed to interpret as a way of casting suspicion off of himself. Oddly, most of the town in that game thought that the player who self-voted hadn't done anything anti-town. When I see someone self-vote, even if its a little joke like that, I take it into consideration.

[Occam]

Ah, sorry. But voting yourself then unvoting in the same post is kind of confusing and pointless...

QFT, if you want to talk about confusing and misleading the town, Mada, why wouldn't you scoop this up?

Also, not lynching on day one is a bad idea, pretty much all the time. It's better for the town to have odd numbers of players alive, too. If we no lynch today and the scum kill tonight, we're still in lylo on day if we mislynch someone tomorrow, so there's no point in not using both of our lynches. If we have five people to choose from tomorrow we have a 2 out of 5 shot of hitting scum instead of a 2 our of 6 shot.

[Occam]

we're still in lylo on day

three

if we mislynch someone tomorrow

Fixed.

[Occam]

Now come with votes and with actual documented reasons. Preferably from this game. And we'll keep talking things through, until we lynch.

OK, I explained why I voted for Stef, as did everyone else who is voting for him.

Why are you so afraid of a Stef lynch, Mada?

[Occam]

Why are you so afraid of that, Occam?

Where did I even come close to saying I was afraid of everyone putting their reasons for a vote on the table? All I said was that everyone voting for Stef had already given their reasons.

Better yet, why are you in such a rush to lynch another player, when there's plenty of time left for discussions and plenty of things to talk about?

Another misconstruance (I know, not a real word) of my intentions. I never tried to rush anything, I simply asked you why you were afraid of Stef being lynched.

I think ort's analysis is right on.

[Occam]

Me putting you at L-1 was a gambit and as far as i'm concerned it pulled through.

How was it a gambit and how did it pull through?

Carboose: Not random vote? OMG... yeah.. his reason was very game related and not RVS at all.. His reason is, and i quote,

My point is that we were well out of the random vote stage, and he had been active (unlike the players voting for me), so his vote, which remained on you, was no longer random.

Yeah..you are right. This is a serious vote and a good case against me.

Yes, you're also correct, Empking's reason for voting you was 100% valid.

You keep me at L-1 based on a Carboose RVS vote ( which i'm very curious about seeing that he hasn't removed it even considering i'm at L-1 )

Lol. There's my point - he still hasn't taken it off - does that tell you anything? Thanks for that.

Mada didn't scoop this up because it's crap.

Yeah, it's crap. Thanks again!

by using logical fallacies and lies

Please, by all means, back this up with some quotes and point out where I lied or used a logical fallacy. My only slip was not initially realizing that you unvoted in the same post that you voted yourself, and nothing YOU'VE said regarding the votes on you is true. Until Caboose comes back and says "I don't want my vote on Stef anymore", and then takes it off, I'm counting his vote as non-random, and Emp's is TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. Just because someone doesn't make a page long case doesn't mean they don't have a decent reason.

I think you are scum and if you aren't then you're the worst townie i've ever seen.

A. I think you're calling me scum because you're mad that I'm pushing a case against you.
B. I think you KNOW I'm town because you're scum.
C. It's never a good idea to say "OR YOU'RE A TOWNIE, BUT I'M OK WITH LYNCHING YOU ANYWAYS" in a game with only two mislynches.

[Occam]

Yeah, if everyone lists who they think is scum on day one, the scum have an easy time deciding who to kill for the rest of the game. So that's not a good idea right now. Later.

[Occam]

Is that a serious question? What don't you understand?

What I don't understand is how it pulled through - it didn't accomplish anything. You obviously weren't THAT sure I was scum because you pulled your vote off of me almost immediately thereafter.

That doesn't excuse the fact that you put me at L-1 when one of the votes was very weird at the least. Funny how nobody picked that up especially you who claimed you checked every vote. Don't you find it scummy? Cause it seems you are very willing to use anything you can to lynch me including shady votes and knocked up reasons. Keep adding to the pile.

This is exactly how I explained why I was voting for you. I can tell you I'm not stupid enough to put you at L-1 based on EXACTLY the same reasons I voted you for - namely, putting me at L-1 on top of two random votes (though interestingly, that would be IRONIC). I don't consider Caboose's vote random any longer. If he declares it random or removes it, I will consider it so, but thus far he hasn't.

Really? Then we have a 100% valid reason to put you at L-1 since the same argument can be brought against you.

No. The circumstances are entirely different. You got mad that you were put at L-2. Then you put me at L-1 on top of two random votes. Empking picked up on that and voted you for it. It was hypocrisy and his vote was justified. You contradicted yourself - I didn't. I wouldn't have had this conviction if your vote was the only vote on me (because, when you think about it, it was the only REAL vote on me, since the other two was random). The fact that it put me at L-1 after YOU had made the big stink about L-2 was what made it suspicious.

You are starting to sound very arrogant. Not a scum-tell but something good to know. Yes, the fact that he hasn't taken his vote off without giving any reason for that vote tells me something. That he's scummy because he might as well be the one voting me at L-1 without giving any reason. All i wonder is why don't YOU see it as scummy. I guess that's because you are scum.

1. I'm right, not arrogant.
2. Actually, I suspect that Caboose is also scum, who is currently distancing you. I also predict that he'll withdraw his vote in the first post he makes after he comes back to the game... or will he, now that I've said something...

Ehm, are you intentionally trying to play like a VI? You just agreed to my point which was a point made against your own. You're making no sense.

Assuming that VI means village idiot, no. I'm saying that what you said is crap, not that what you said I said was crap. Get it?

I'm too lazy to quote again but meh:
- Your "slip" when accusing me of self-voting. As far as i'm concerned you might as well be lying to mislead. Your intention when you had that "slip" is not known to the town. Don't take our trust as granted on that incident.

Lol, right? Because this is pretty much what your case on me is founded on. You REALLLLY THINK I'd try to make a case on you by misleading the whole town into not noticing that you unvoted in the same post?

You actually said that everyone who had voted for me had given a reason. Carboose had clearly done no such thing. How is this NOT a lie?

My bad for assuming that someone who has posted regularly and had the chance to withdraw his vote doesn't have reasons for it.

- The simplest example of you using a logical fallacy is the one you just wrote in your last post:

The example quote of mine that you cite in no way demonstrates a logical fallacy. I said: "Just because someone doesn't make a page long case doesn't mean they don't have a decent reason." That is a 100% valid statement and in no way meets this definition:

1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.: That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4. Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.
5. Obsolete. deception.

Not at all. I'm calling you scum because the chances you are town are too slim. A townie has no reason to lie and mislead the town like you have nor to misrep and use shady votes to lynch some1 who hasn't done anything scummy enough to warrant a lynch. My emotions have nothing to do with it. It's simple logic.

How are the "chances I'm town too slim"? I didn't lie - I made one misread which YOU blew up into a huge deal that's total BS, assuming that I'd ACTUALLY TRY TO MISLEAD THE TOWN INTO NOT THINKING YOU UNVOTED YOURSELF IN THE SAME POST. Only a COMPLETE BUFFOON would try to argue something that could be disproved with a simple quote. I can tell you (and I hope you'll take my word) that I am NOT a COMPLETE BUFFOON.

Ok.. anything to back that up or are you just using crap-logic and the unfounded presumption that you are townie to built an argument?

No, nothing except everything I've said, which is plenty.

That's it! Take out of context! At least don't use comas when you don't really quote me. It's less obvious when you are trying to mislead. I said no such thing. I said i think you are scum and if you aren't ( there's always the chance i'm wrong ) then you are the worse townie i've ever seen. how in HELL is that the same thing you "quoted"? I can't possibly point out how blatantly scummy you are and how you blatantly try to mislead by lying, misreping and using logical fallacies.

Is this another Lol? You clearly stated: OR YOU ARE THE WORST TOWNIE I HAVE EVER SEEN... meaning YOU ARE EITHER SCUM OR A BAD TOWNIE - EITHER WAY I'M FINE WITH LYNCHING YOU.

How DIDN'T you say that. Cause you did. You did. You said it.

Stef... I don't think I'll ever understand you, but I don't have to understand you to know you're scum.

[Occam]

I'm not saying anything in response to Stef till someone else comes in (apparently me and Empking aren't enough) and tells Stef he's wrong. It's a waste of time.

[Occam]

Tell me i'm wrong? Lmao.. PROVE IT! That's the lamest thing i've seen so far. Asking for others to tell me i'm wrong when i'm having a quote-war with you? That's just sad. And proof that you've run out of arguments to defend yourself. Scum.

I could respond to every one of your posts - but without outside input its going nowhere. And you're wrong, and I think everyone else will realize that when they read you - so I'm going to let someone else do the talking for a bit.

[Occam]

I think Stef has conviced me that he might not be scum.

Details?

[Occam]

Yeah Stef is wrong which means Mada is too. Not about everything, but about nearly everything.

Caboose -> Your current silence is honestly very suspicious, as not only have you not bothered to make any comment regarding a situation you were directly involved in (having your vote on another player without explaining it), but you also deliberately keep the game from moving, thus stirring suspicion regrading yourself. Should you be town, this is not town-like behavior. Because it is confusing. In fact, your entire input was rather little, irrelevant and confusing.

It looks to me like Caboose is being quiet until Crazy's next post. That's it. If anyone is at fault it's Crazy.

Crazy -> You are inactive. The few times you did post, it wasn't to tell us something. We are all waiting for something from you. Something a little more juicy, with a bit more content than your usual one-liner. Contribute! Until then, I must consider this lurking. FoS Crazy

This is the part of your post that is right.

Empking -> I really do not appreciate your style. I rarely see arguments from you. Your reasons are always blurry or unmentioned. The same one-line thing as Crazy. When you vote someone for insufficient reason - even if you do have reasons but you fail to share them - I think you have something to hide. Talk to us. If every one of us were to act according to his own secret agenda, the town wouldn't stand a chance. It's why we have daytime. To discuss things. Sharing is caring, Empking. I don't know what to make of you yet.

Why didn't you FoS Emp is you accuse him of the same things you find Crazy scummy for? In fact, you give more reasons on Emp than on Crazy, but the FoS is oddly absent.

Occam -> You put a lot of energy into your quote war there. However, my suspicions against you stand. Post #81. My vote stands.

Mmm.

Ortolan -> You send me some clean vibes, especially since your degree of involvement in the game seems pretty high. There are things that I still need to see about you, but overall... maybe you're not scum.

Filler.

Stef -> I think of you as being more on the town side because your reasons are plausible, you contribute, you are active and you have brought documented arguments for your actions. I do not appreciate your occasional recklessness though.

No.

Two misconceptions you hold: Recklessness is not scummy. Levels of participation do not equate to scumminess.

Mada's post reads like laziness.

[Occam]

... How many forum Mafia games have you finished so far?

Many many many. But why does that make a difference? You've only been here since September!!!

[Occam]

IF you think NOT answering so many people for over a week is ok just because he said he doesn't post till crazy posts then you are either noob, scum, idiot or brilliant. You don't seem to be more brilliant than the average guy so that leaves the last 3.

A of all, i'm brilliant, and brilliant IS one of the last 3 so HELL YES. Concise posting is brilliant and I agree with it. Crazy has been posting inconsistently, not concisely, so he should post more often, but fuck it, I'm not crazy or Crazy. Point is, you shouldn't be blaming people for blaming another player for things.

[Occam]

Hmm. Caboose has taken the waiting thing a step further than what I can believe a reasonable townie would after seeing that everyone's criticizing him for it. I'm hammering.

unvote - vote: Caboose

[Occam]

We might be in for a long twilight considering the mod's on vacation till the 27th.

[Occam]

The fact that he came back and continued doing what everyone told him they thought was scummy, explicitly, in fact, was scummy, not the fact that he was doing it beforehand. Are you mad I killed your scumpartner?

[Occam]

We'll see, won't we?

[Occam]

We'll see, won't we? There's a 1/3 chance I was right.

[Occam]

F'ing server constantly expiring - sorry for the double (now triple) post.

[Occam]

@Stef - how do you know it was an anti-town hammer?

[Occam]

Or better yet.. how is it NOT anti-town?

A. It's not anti-town if he's scum - and the reason I hammered, of course, is because I think there's a good chance he is.
B. I'll tell you the other reason tomorrow.

[Occam]

Because the scum would be stupid to kill someone under heat. Plus, B. isn't some epic game-changing piece of info, it's just something that would be better said tomorrow than in twilight. Don't hold your breath.

there was time till a deadline for more discussion, there were issues still on the table like Crazy and Caboose and you came out of the blue and hammered. How is that pro-town?

I'm assuming this is your reason it's anti-town? OK, fair enough. But you evidently didn't want me to respond to this, because you said:

Or better yet.. how is it NOT anti-town?

So don't blame me for not responding to it when you direct the questions.

@Emp - sure, it could have waited. I didn't think it had to, though. It seems like most of the time, long day ones do end up being useful for the town. At least a page per player seems like a decent rate, and as has been established I had a change of heart on Crazy. If someone does something blatant like that - I don't like to let people get away with it.

[Occam]

I do want you to answer that question.

Nothing you say will change that.

Loaded question then, eh?

The only way it would have been reasonable is if you would have KNOWN, as town, that he is scum. There is no way of that being the case.

Why'd you even say that?

How would it be stupid for scum to kill you? You used a WIFOM defense. Scum wouldn't kill you if you were scum. Otherwise there's no way to know if you will be night-killed or not.

Umm... duh. There's no way to know. Scum don't tend to kill people who are under suspicion so I don't know what you're trying to say with this. People who could easily be lynched for being scummy don't tend to be scum's NK choices. Durp.

So in that post, you did three things:

1. Asked me to answer a question, then told me no answer would satisfy it, negating the purpose of asking it.
2. Said something flat out wrong about scum NKs.
3. Pointed out the obvious, which is that town can't KNOW who the scum are.

So, thanks for that.

[Occam]

1. Misrep much? I said that no matter what you say it will still be anti-town. That is not related to me wanting you to further explain your reasons. You're picking unrelated straws and putting them together to make a point. That point is non-existent since you misrepped what i said.

I do want you to answer that question. As i said: if he turns out scum it doesn't change the fact that the hammer was anti-town. Your reasons for cutting the day short are bullshit.

There was NO rush to hammer. There was NO rush whatsoever. In a game with so few players days should be as long as possible to find out as much as possible. Nothing you say will change that.

I don't know, but somehow those straws look awfully related to me. Your question was "there was time till a deadline for more discussion, there were issues still on the table like Crazy and Caboose and you came out of the blue and hammered. How is that pro-town?" which is essentially exactly the same thing as what you say in the third paragraph - so your question and the impossible satisfactory answer are in exactly the same vein - so yes, you do ask an impossible question and deem it as such yourself.

2. What exactly is flat wrong about scum NK's? Please quote the exact phrase. Really curious how you're going to pull this one through.

What's flat wrong is exactly what I already said - people drawing heat are exactly who scum DON'T kill. Here's the exact phrase, quoted:

How would it be stupid for scum to kill you? You used a WIFOM defense. Scum wouldn't kill you if you were scum. Otherwise there's no way to know if you will be night-killed or not.

This is based on WIFOM as well, and the implied incorrectness of this statement is that there are many many reasons I wouldn't die tonight, and the answer you fill in is only one of them. I AM under heat for the hammer, so scum WOULDN'T kill me - if they do, they're dumb scum, and that's not WIFOM at all, that's based on typical scum patterns which I personally have never seen negated. Scum simply do not kill people they can try to get lynched easily the next day, unless they're idiots. So your assumption is incorrect.

3. Wrong. Pointed out the obvious that SCUM DO.

No, you didn't. This is exactly what you said:

The only way it would have been reasonable is if you would have KNOWN, as town, that he is scum. There is no way of that being the case.

You didn't say scum do know, you said town don't. Durp.

[Occam]

Yeah I'm vanilla. I think it's pretty clear Emp is scum.

[Occam]

I called empking scum because he refused to claim when massclaim was clearly the most protown course of action.

Lynching empking is obviously the best course of action. His decision not to massclaim was bad, but couple with ort's weak defense of him against crazy's implications, it pretty much makes no sense not to lynch empking today.

vote: empking

[Occam]

Well Stef also investigated me last night.

[Occam]

@ Emp -

Clearly one of the two cop claims is fake, and knowing that I'm town, it's pretty easy to discern which. It's obviously more difficult for anyone that isn't me, but it's black and white for me since I know my role.

[Occam]

Because you were obvscum even at that point and Crazy hadn't talked yet.

[Occam]

But he claimed "your" role, shouldn't that at least warrant a mention?

Obviously there's only one left, so... not really. Additionally, you can argue all day about who's cop, but which one of us is telling the truth hinges on which cop is lying, so there's really no point.

[Occam]

Well I really hope crazy was scum because I'm really not.

[Occam]

I'm just really confused, Stef, as to how you could read what Crazy was saying and decide that HE was scum. That just seems ridiculous. I think you just had a serious case on tunnelvision in regards to me and couldn't accept that I wasn't scum - so instead of really reading what was said, you hammered my "partner".

I'm actually kind of upset about this game, to be honest. It was fun, but... it was so obvious that Empking and ort were scum... I just truly don't understand why you'd rush the end like that, Stef. I invested a good bit of time in this game and it's been going on for a good month... day 2 should not have ended like that. I can understand day one ending without a whole lot of concern, since we had a mislynch (and I was the one who hammered, which admittedly might not have been the greatest decision), but I think we would have won this game if anyone but Stef was in his position.

Oh well, good game everybody!