In post 1156, T-Bone wrote:
Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!
As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?
Isn't it actually the same then? Would return positive on (Vanilla Mafia) and on (PR Town), which is the same as 1164
Technically yes, but a SK PR will get a Negative from Thaumaturge but a Positive from Logician.
Same with Vanilla SK, which gets a Positive from Thaumaturge but a Negative from Logician.
Any chance that roles/modifiers that can pierce, or protect against, blocks be normalized?
Strong-Willed -- (modifier) modified ability can't be roleblocked or protected from Epicurean -- all non-killing ability targeting you can't fail Willbooster -- your target's actions can't be blocked
There is precedent, as Strongman is essentially the result of putting a strong-willed modifier on the factional kill
In post 1176, biancospino wrote:
Any chance that roles/modifiers that can pierce, or protect against, blocks be normalized?
Strong-Willed -- (modifier) modified ability can't be roleblocked or protected from Epicurean -- all non-killing ability targeting you can't fail Willbooster -- your target's actions can't be blocked
There is precedent, as Strongman is essentially the result of putting a strong-willed modifier on the factional kill
I think that the suggestions are good ideas.
Edit: I misread the variant (which used to be the standard version) as the current standard version.
I do think [role]-Immune and maybe [role]-Locked (and maybe Vanilla-Locked as well) should be considered, maybe. [role]-Locked is an invention of mine however.
point of order on "-Immune" 's wiki page: passive abilities shouldn't be phrased that way. assuming that "Ascetic-Immune Jailkeeper" is immune to ascetic stopping their actions, phrase it as "You are/this action is immune to effects of the role 'Ascetic'."
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
In post 1182, Cook wrote:
point of order on "-Immune" 's wiki page: passive abilities shouldn't be phrased that way. assuming that "Ascetic-Immune Jailkeeper" is immune to ascetic stopping their actions, phrase it as "You are/this action is immune to effects of the role 'Ascetic'."
I have attempted to fix this inaccuracy, and also have updated the wiki page on Immune to mention passive roles.
An Ascetic-Immune Jailkeeper would indeed be a Jailkeeper that is capable of targeting an Ascetic player without the Jailkeeper action failing due to Ascetic's protection.
This does make it reasonable for Doctor-Immune to be seen as being able to ignore Doctor protection instead of merely being unable to be protected by a Doctor... I originally wrote the Immune wiki page with active roles in mind and a Doctor-Immune player being able to ignore Doctor protection is unintended
are any of these new additions going through NRG before they hit the queue or are they just being added because guy on forum post said "this would be a good idea"
Instead of separating abilities into "roles" and "modifiers" on the wiki, can we separate into "active roles", "passive roles", and "modifiers"?
A modifier is something that, well, modifies another role. Like Odd-Night; you can't just be a Town Odd-Night. But Bulletproof is also listed as a modifier, even though you can just be Bulletproof. (And Neighbor is listed as both, for some reason.) I think the current list was made with lack of acknowledgement of the third category "passive role", which would be something that doesn't modify or rely on any other ability, but also doesn't involve an action from the player.
The currently normal abilities that should be reclassified as passive roles are Enabler, Encryptor, Neighbor, Universal Backup, Mason, Miller, Traitor*, Ascetic, Bulletproof, Informed, and Macho. There's also Commuter, Strongman/Unstoppable, and Innocent Child, which are passive unless modified in certain ways; but technically with the Activated modifier any passive role can be turned active, so these roles can probably be grouped here as well.
*Traitor should really be considered an alignment, not a role. It affects wincons in a way that roles can't, and it shouldn't be changeable the way roles are. iirc there was recently a game with a Traitor Enabler and that feels extremely non-Normal to me.
Also, I think we can lose the "Roles/Modifiers which are explicitly Non-Normal include:" section. Everything not listed there is explicitly non-normal now that there is no greylist.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
rename it to the paranormal queue and only allow spooky roles
In post 1162, TemporalLich wrote:
Impersonal and Procrastinating are also ideas worth considering, being the inverted version of Personal and Lazy respectively.
I'm pretty sure passive roles are roles. Activated is a modifier that turns a passive role into an active role, and Loyal is limited to active roles so Loyal Ascetic likely isn't Normal.
I'm pretty sure passive roles are a subset of roles. A passive role is a role with an ability that works without player input. An example of a passive role is Bulletproof.
Speaking of passive roles, here are the Normal passive roles that are currently miscategorized as modifiers on the Normal Game page:
I still say that Traitor is a passive role and not an alignment. A Traitor giving a "traitor" result to Role Cops is an effect of Traitor being a role. Also, a Mafia Traitor is still a Mafioso, which makes Traitor a role and not an alignment.
pedit: the roles I want the most are bulwark and thaumaturge
In post 1186, Something_Smart wrote:
Instead of separating abilities into "roles" and "modifiers" on the wiki, can we separate into "active roles", "passive roles", and "modifiers"?
btw there is some strangeness about what exactly is Ninja.
Ninja appears to be used as both a modifier and a role and those should not have the same name imho. For instance, in a, say, (Town ninja Cop), ninja is clearly a modifier, but in a (Mafia Cop Ninja) the Ninja is clearly a passive role -- unless it is allowable to interpret it as a modifier applied to the
factional action
which would open a whole can of worm that I'm not sure feels Normal (as it would leave the door open for such things like a (complex Mafioso) or even silliness like (combined Alien Mafioso) etc.).
As such, I think for logical consistency there should be either two different names for role!Ninja and modifier!Ninja, or modifers should be allowed to modify factional actions. The latter would be more interesting, idk how normal it would be thou
Good point about Ninja, I was thinking about it from a scum factional kill perspective, but it can also be a modifier applied to specific actions. Maybe that modifier should be renamed Silent or something.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
In post 1190, TemporalLich wrote:
I'm pretty sure passive roles are roles. Activated is a modifier that turns a passive role into an active role, and Loyal is limited to active roles so Loyal Ascetic likely isn't Normal.
I'm pretty sure passive roles are a subset of roles. A passive role is a role with an ability that works without player input. An example of a passive role is Bulletproof.
Speaking of passive roles, here are the Normal passive roles that are currently miscategorized as modifiers on the Normal Game page:
I still say that Traitor is a passive role and not an alignment. A Traitor giving a "traitor" result to Role Cops is an effect of Traitor being a role. Also, a Mafia Traitor is still a Mafioso, which makes Traitor a role and not an alignment.
pedit: the roles I want the most are bulwark and thaumaturge
That's basically what Something Smart was saying, that they are roles but categorized as modifiers.
Ninja is a modifier, though interpreting the factional kill modifying version of Ninja as a passive role is a fair intepretation
I'm wary of modifying the factional kill (I'm the one who gave names to roles capable of using modified factional kills)... if a factional kill must be modified and there is no option to use an unmodified factional kill, that doesn't feel Normal to me.
I'd name the modifier Stealthy, though Silent is a good name as well. Ninja would be the passive role that modifies the factional kill.
Speaking of modifiers, I'd name the modifier version of Strongman Unstoppable, with Juggernaut being the non-gendered Strongman as a role alias.
pedit: yeah, I don't exactly agree that active and passive roles are separate domains considering you can turn a passive role into an active role with the Activated modifier and you can turn an active role into a passive role with the Reflexive modifier (note that the Reflexive modifier is not Normal!).
In post 1197, TemporalLich wrote:
Ninja is a modifier, though interpreting the factional kill modifying version of Ninja as a passive role is a fair intepretation
I'm wary of modifying the factional kill (I'm the one who gave names to roles capable of using modified factional kills)... if a factional kill must be modified and there is no option to use an unmodified factional kill, that doesn't feel Normal to me.
I'd name the modifier Stealthy, though Silent is a good name as well. Ninja would be the passive role that modifies the factional kill.
Speaking of modifiers, I'd name the modifier version of Strongman Unstoppable, with Juggernaut being the non-gendered Strongman as a role alias.
pedit: yeah, I don't exactly agree that active and passive roles are separate domains considering you can turn a passive role into an active role with the Activated modifier and you can turn an active role into a passive role with the Reflexive modifier (note that the Reflexive modifier is not Normal!).
i would also like to propose Astral as an alternative rename, from Town of Salem. i think it is a little too "flavorful" to be used as a generic modifier, though.
"Silent" to me also feels like it'd do something else other than hide from actioncops.
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
