In post 1197, TemporalLich wrote:
Ninja is a modifier, though interpreting the factional kill modifying version of Ninja as a passive role is a fair intepretation
I'm wary of modifying the factional kill (I'm the one who gave names to roles capable of using modified factional kills)... if a factional kill must be modified and there is no option to use an unmodified factional kill, that doesn't feel Normal to me.
I'd name the modifier Stealthy, though Silent is a good name as well. Ninja would be the passive role that modifies the factional kill.
Speaking of modifiers, I'd name the modifier version of Strongman Unstoppable, with Juggernaut being the non-gendered Strongman as a role alias.
pedit: yeah, I don't exactly agree that active and passive roles are separate domains considering you can turn a passive role into an active role with the Activated modifier and you can turn an active role into a passive role with the Reflexive modifier (note that the Reflexive modifier is not Normal!).
i would also like to propose Astral as an alternative rename, from Town of Salem. i think it is a little too "flavorful" to be used as a generic modifier, though.
"Silent" to me also feels like it'd do something else other than hide from actioncops.
I'm tempted to agree with Ali for kind of the same reason I think traitors shouldn't be normal; it can drastically alter the scumhunting dynamic in a way that just doesn't mesh with normalcy in my mind. They also feel much harder to balance around in my mind.
There is an upside in multiball in that it can help with game pacing which is good for larges
Traitor I don’t think effects hunting that much but it is a very difficult role to play well.
U do bring up a point that I don’t rly remember the last time traitor or multiball was ran outside of the normal/open queues.
If the normal queue is supposed to be representative of what is popular on the site, why is something niche like multiball that is very rarely run outside of the normal queue normal? Just doesn’t make sense to me.
I think implosion explained somewhere (or maybe it was someone else, not sure) that Normal is supposed to represent what is considered MAFIA, rather than a variation of the game.
So for instance Secret Hitler and The Resistance are both extreme examples of non-normalcy, because they alter the game dynamics too much. A less extreme example would be role madness, or a game where the mod kills the scummiest town player whenever Tommy Edman makes a homerun. Since they alter the basic flow of the game, they aren't Normal.
I think there are a bunch of roles which are very popular but alter the game too much (such as cult or even a publishing cop) so they can't be classed as Normal.
Multiball is barely Normal imo, and that is only because of Multiball being traditionally Normal
it is an interesting setup dynamic, however Multiball games have a very different meta than non-multiball games so multiball Normals should be advertised as multiball Normals (if that is not possible, multiball isn't Normal)
the thing that makes multiball vastly different than normal alignment setups is that scum need to scumhunt
Note that the same arguments apply to a setup with a Serial Killer, except that the Mafia doesn't need to look for associatives
In post 1208, DragonEater70 wrote:
I think implosion explained somewhere (or maybe it was someone else, not sure) that Normal is supposed to represent what is considered MAFIA, rather than a variation of the game.
In post 1207, Alisae wrote:
Traitor I don’t think effects hunting that much but it is a very difficult role to play well.
U do bring up a point that I don’t rly remember the last time traitor or multiball was ran outside of the normal/open queues.
If the normal queue is supposed to be representative of what is popular on the site, why is something niche like multiball that is very rarely run outside of the normal queue normal? Just doesn’t make sense to me.
i've run multiball several times in semi-open setups
traitor... that's a bit trickier to say. maybe investigate and see if there's traitors in any games in recent memory?
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Let me rephrase
Multiball is rarely seen in the theme queues.
I think you would have to break down how many large theme queues had multiball games.
Actually, I think the only place to really find multiball larges IS the normal queue.
I don't recall the last time a multiball game was ran as a mini theme but I think it would be rare to see one.
The first thing I think about when I think of the normal queue is a standard game of mafia with no bullshit or advanced mechanics that make an average game of mafia harder.
In post 1208, DragonEater70 wrote:
I think implosion explained somewhere (or maybe it was someone else, not sure) that Normal is supposed to represent what is considered MAFIA, rather than a variation of the game.
In post 1213, Alisae wrote:
Let me rephrase
Multiball is rarely seen in the theme queues.
I think you would have to break down how many large theme queues had multiball games.
Actually, I think the only place to really find multiball larges IS the normal queue.
I don't recall the last time a multiball game was ran as a mini theme but I think it would be rare to see one.
3d20, two years ago, comes to mind
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
wiki wrote:This page describes what is considered to be "Normal" on mafiascum.net.
These guidelines are intended to enforce common expectations of games, such that all games called "Normal" are reasonably balanced and not deviant from what one would reasonably expect in a standard game of Mafia.
Second, I couldn't find implo saying this directly, but I think these quotes kinda convey this message:
In post 840, implosion wrote:
-Normals provide an option for players who want to play closed setups where they can reasonably expect what kinds of things to see and won't typically be wildly surprised. They also provide closed games with a reasonable expectation of balance.
-They provide new players a kind of game with the kinds of mechanics that they might expect to see in any game on the site, acclimating them to what is "normal" for MS, rather than mechanics that might be more peculiar to a single game
Though I think the first quote covers it pretty well.
I think you could make cases that multiball is a reasonable expectation. You could also probably argue that it deviates from what you might see in a "standard" game of mafia these days. Ultimately I don't think removing multiball would really have *too much* of an impact on the normal queue since it's usually announced in advance anyways (so no one would really be caught off guard by it). I'd imagine more options for game design is better than less options.
I realized that it's not actually required to divulge multiball in normals apparently. I kind of wish that was a requirement. I also kind of wish mods had to divulge faction ratios in normals (ie: hey everyone, this game is 13:4).
I guess listing faction numbers would spoil any hail mary vig claims coming from a serial killer. Maybe it could be something like "there are three members of the mafia in this game." I don't know, maybe others won't agree, but I feel like having to guess at that on rare occasions (say, in an 11p game or 15p game) is kind of at odds with normalcy.
It's a bad idea to remove multiball from Large normal games, period. You notice this site isn't nearly as busy as it was back in 2013; you remove multiball from Large Normals and you're putting another nail in the coffin.
Soon I'll be modding a Large Normal that is multiball. These types of games aren't as uncommon as you think they are.
