Open 881 Mason PT

[Dannflor]

hi im here

[Dannflor]

how do we solve this game?

[Dannflor]

I don't understand how Dats is arriving out his reads so far.

I did want to break up this back and forth a bit though, tvt ,svs, tvs.....either way, the longer a back and forth goes the more it becomes anti town.

is it just me or is this a scum post - esp now that datisi and bulge are conf town

> "ooh look at me i want to break up this TvT I'm so pro town!"
> doesn't actually say or do anything to mediate or break it up and actually inflames datisi

[Dannflor]

still catching up

ok so re shadi

my initial concern was that i thought his vote being based on datisi's posts was really odd when he obviously hadn't read datisi's posts?

his answer to this was that he thought datisi's posts were referring to me hyperposting. i'm sure this is true - it's not really the sort of thing mafia need to lie about or whatever. but it's obviously a super clumsy reading of datisi's post and requires you to like not think about what he's saying at all i think because i don't know how you read that post and not come to the conclusion he agrees with me? which like, i think on some level town do skim posts and it's whatever but specifically bringing that up makes me really feel like he's not actually invested in solving the game.

i think his very, like... passive approach to interacting right now and also before kind of solidifies that? like he's around and posting but the focus is more on responding to people than poking around? which like to some extent he's being pressured and these things happen, but stuff like the sheep read is just... i get being disengaged but when you're around wy do you need prompting to bring that up?

saving this post

[Dannflor]

do you think there's scum on your wagon shady?

Yeah prolly one scum in there, what do you feel about yours?

shadi / superbowl interactions do feel kinda mechanical

[Dannflor]

nvm I think I changed my mind on Drew

[Dannflor]

ok mostly caught up

kinda scum reading some combination of [superbowl, meowmeow, doctor drew]

malakittens could be scum too idk how to read that slot - it might be mala instead of drew I haven't really made up my mind about Drew yet

shadi, I like get why people think shadi is scummy, but I don't feel it in my heart of hearts

I like Bell and Dunnstral as town the most I think

lower confidence in Aristeia but it's still there

[Dannflor]

ok my shotgun scum team guess might actually be superbowl, meowmeow, malakittens

it's preflippy af but i hate how meowmeow purportedly has similar reads on shadi and superbowl for like the whole game and yet always always finds herself soft defending bowl and pushing shadi

[Dannflor]

and i think drew has some genuinely towny moments whereas the only reason to town read mala are like... some derp moments

WHICH i have learned is not a good reason to town read mala

[Dannflor]

I'm definitely conf biasing into a superbowl/meowmeow scum team it's bad

[Dannflor]

I'm definitely fine with the superbowl lim here I just want to poke around a little first

[Dannflor]

mmm i kinda take back what i said about dunn being town

meowmeow + dunn

is that anything?

[Dannflor]

ig my fear is that superbowl is just miselimable town and the scum team won't touch the wagon with a 10 foot pole because town are just gonna push it over the edge and they get to wash their hands clean and keep their tunnels going on other town

so i should probably read superbowl seriously and figure out if i actually think that slot can be town

[Dannflor]

because like both meowmeow and dunnstral's treatment of the superbowl wagon is like really weird right?

[Dannflor]

could you walk me through why with regards to superbowl9

he had that weird post about hyperposting and readability that doesn't contribute anything, and then like from that point on he's saying *words* but those words don't actually go anywhere

like, i played with him once a few years ago, i was scum in that game and he was town but i remember him actually like, doing things

Here is my contribution you are scum

boop

[Dannflor]

uh the superbowl wagon is like

i'm not as enthusiastic about it as the shadi wagon?

but i don't hate it either and realistically will probably end up voting there

there have been some places where he sounds like town genuinely believing what he's saying. like when he explains the ari read and he's like, "oh this is something most people don't pay attention to, how people like me strategically withdraw information!" and then in the next post he's like "oh ari is town because she didn't want to explain her datisi read but asked others about theirs" and suddenly i feel like he's townreading ari waaaay too easily and it's scummy

i saw this post again and god i just hate it so much

there's also so much of meowmeow's iso that is just pulling at inconsequential things or attacking inconsistencies that i don't think most town players would think anything of but that scum are drawn to like magnets because they are super easy to talk about

[Dannflor]

i really can't tell if I'm onto something or just confbiasing at this point so i need u guys to yell at me if this seems like nonsense

[Dannflor]

okay why is superbowl scum to u guys

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

ok so reads wise, here are my takes on the players in this game

Datisi

ok first of all datisi always rolls scum. this is important if you believe in the gambler's fallacy, or its superior equivalent, anti gambler's fallacy, which holds that if someone keeps rolling scum they keep rolling scum. despite my making fun of him - which i hold to be fully justified in every way - he is actually a very good scum player and that needs to be kept in mind

146 feels +town to me. not sure exactly how to verbalise it, but it comes off as like, weirdly sheepy and lacking conviction, which i think is fairly +town because this stuff can just happen as a result of the game being hard as town; whereas scum datisi i think is good at creating options and it's more difficult to see how his thought process gets to the point where he thinks this is a good post to make.

182 is a bit ??? to me because it's like, why would you think i'm not ausuka? i told you i was making an alt in your discord DMs like a couple weeks before the game started and i don't think my posts are that different. i get being like 'oh i didn't think of that' but sheer shock is a bit strange. however unless someone told him beforehand i was ausuka it's probably not ai at all and idk how likely that is

does datisi try and pocket me and then call me stupid? maybe? i think he would know i wouldn't like that and i'm something of an emotional player so maybe it's slightly +town

as scum once, i pushed datisi because he townread someone pushing on him. i accused him of trying to defuse the situation. he was town in that game. i guess that is to say, i don#t really get what's so unnatural about the bulge read or why town datisi wouldn't make it

overall i lean town on datisi so far, i think

Aristeia

she flirts with datisi a lot. that's not ai it just makes me smile

i originally didn't like 206 because speculation about scumteams or whatever that doesn't involve a serious push on one of the people involved has always felt empty to me and makes me go but also i can kind of see why she would find that datisi post a bit over-the-top so shrug

the read on bell in 389 is interesting. my instinct is to like it, and i can kind of see where she's coming from if town, even if i'm not sure i 100% get it - maybe partially because i lack context? but it's true that bell lacks bite in this game.

yekaterina

so, i don't think katya is town particularly, which i get is an unusual opinion to have. she was scum in the recently completed micro 1087 and just absolutely swept the game so i don't really think i should buy into the narrative that like, she's obvtown because she posts a lot of stuff that looks vaguely thoughtful. obviously if ppl have more specific reasons to townread her i'm happy to hear it; i don't think we should write off any reason to townread a capable scum player but i think a lot of the more common surface level reasons aren't that valid

obviously, i didn't like 167 - i mean i'm biased because like, it's me, and it did explain the post was trying not to give anything away but... meh, i'm just not a fan of the whole exchange

didn't really like 178 like 'you should expect i'll be obvious town' feels a bit like scum trying to be too cheeky to be scum. idk if that makes sense

i don't know if i need to go through the whole honeypot thing again. i'm not sure if anyone except me actually read that. but like, i basically just don't like how light of a wave katya makes towards shadi, not really doing anything there, and calling it a honeypot because after she did that, people wouldn't 'need' to talk to shadi and therefore anyone who does is probably scum? i think it's possible that there's some playstyle difference there because it is incredibly foreign to how i play mafia. but the thing that really got me is the idea that anyone pushing shadi is necessarily like, influenced by her push and being opportunistic, even though it wasn't really a push and was a light and noncommittal idea about how she doesn't really know who scum is. and it comes without really engaging with the reasons why they were doing that. i do still think there is some partner equity there but that's not important for now. of course, there's the whole deal where she doesn't like votes/wagons and that's obviously genuine but it is obviously also aware that a lot of people do not share this view. so like to review, she is asked who scum is, and instead of answering normally sets up a 'honeypot' except the honey attracts people that disagree with it about how wagons work, which she apparently doesn't want to discuss. not to mention she goes to great lengths to emphasise how much she does not really believe in this read which just seems... incredibly counterproductive to the entire purpose. and obviously if she's scum it's a rather intricate thing, but i really do not see the town thought process here, and i think it's a +scum thing to do.

and yeah idk that is basically my whole read on katya. even in her more recent posts, i still don't really understand it or where it's coming from at all in terms of what she's pushing people for and if she's town, what she's going for, who she might like to eliminate. i don't see the thought process behind any of it. but i think part of that *could* be that i play very differently. i mean, i townread it once before, but maybe that game i wasn't as cautious of being snowed; i should probably go back and check. i lean scum on katya right now

the bulge

the bulge. i vibed him as town early, just based on how he was sharing reads and stuff in what i perceived to be a relaxed way. i liked 223 a bit. and like, the superbowl wagon comments are just... could they be from scum? yeah. but i tend to like proactive stuff like this that shows care for the gamestate, understanding things and parsing them so you can read people, sue me.

281 and 283 i have more mixed feelings about. my instinct is to say that unreasonable isn't scummy and that i don't like the approach but after reading the conversation for a while i get what he's saying better? like, the 'reasonable' word stuck in my brain but i think it might just be a red herring because bulge is saying that he doesn't believe datisi's emotional reaction to the question is genuine because he doesn't seem to actually care about the question itself. which seems like a fairly towny line of thinking actually; it's engaging with the thread on something of a deeper level and i think it's something he's put thought into. if he's scum it's very good scumplay.

uh, his more recent posts are more content-free. i can kind of see the desire behind pushing superbowl/presumably the datisi vote is a continuation of earlier so whatever.

Bell

bell has a lot of posts which i don't take a lot out of. 292 is probably the first interesting post in the entire bell iso. i didn't think datisi's read was bad personally - and as i said, i've pushed him for that as scum before, so i don't want to townread this in itself, but at least it's like making observations and doing something?

i don't hate his counter push on ari? most of his poking and pushing seems to lack edge, in the sense he's not really trying to wagon people or push people at any point. in that sense, i agree with aristeia. i am totally unfamiliar with bell, but i don't really get the sense he's forcing himself to be here tho; he's just around, vibing, but not with a strong sense of purpose? and again, idk him or the meta here, but it feels unfair to pick on him for that when a lot of people feel the same or worse.

i think bell acting like my laptop breaking is some sort of mystery or whatever is weird but probably not ai. same w/ blockgate

overall? shrug, i don't really want to kill him today but i don't particularly think he's town either.

Doctor Drew

drew has kind of dropped off, unfortunately. i thought he was towny early on. as i say in 196 i think 186 is a likely townpost because it's counter-intuitive for scum drew to say that about std, unless he's actually scum with std i guess. i also see how someone would sus the datisi vote on drew, so that part is fine. and the scumread on me is fine, or even good; i get where it's coming from and how it would come to a towny thought process even if i don't agree.

however since then he has just been completely low energy? like he pushes datisi for a while, which is meh but whatever, and then he says the push is becoming less productive - yeah sure that makes sense - but he doesn't really follow through on it and totally deflates.

i think this balances out to a townlean; he's been towny enough that i have no interest in pushing him right now but that's not an iron strong read

Dunnstral

i guess it's not that hard to fake but i did like his early drew push? felt believable. i'm biased but i liked 308 because

he was agreeing with me

idk he was pushing me earlier and then called the shadi wagon good and agreed with my comment on ari which feels a bit like towny fluidity. i think the malakittens vote is good. overall, i'm not certain of it but i think dunnstral is town this game

Malakittens

a little background context; i am aware of the malakittens meta. she did some stuff in datisi's cafe and i thought she was probably town because of the meta. she was not town. therefore, i don't really care about the meta.

anyway, her posts are very social, which isn't inherently bad but she does seem to care about that even at the expense of scumhunting. i don't like 373; i'm not entirely sure what she's trying to say about bell, but it seems a lot more interesting than 'drew is always scum' - it just feels off to me in terms of thought process. she could easily be scum here. on the other hand, she is a cat, which gets points

shadi1337

well, i think shadi is the player i need to do this for the least, since i've explained my thoughts on him in some depth already. it could come from town but the townread on katya in 63 is probably what i expect scum to say here? saying he's 'not opposed' to voting datisi when asking bulge about his read feels kind of weird, in the sense i'm not sure why it's there and might be self-conscious. he doesn't like alts existing, which is actually the real reason i scumread him. the rest of these posts are a front. as i said, the read on datisi and me is *very* weird to me, and to me it shows a lack of care in solving the both of us which i dislike; i think you get to the conclusion he did if you very briefly skim datisi's post which town can do but if he's doing that, and still refers to the post to explain his decisions, it feels very very off to me.

and again, if he thinks sheep would 'definitely' be more investigative as town, it's just odd that he needs prompting to bring it up - i don't see the town thought process here really.

i think he was asked about it and didn't respond - the 'one scum' thing feels oddly specific. from his perspective, couldn't there be two? there could also be zero even if he's town but i acknowledge a lot of town players will think that is unlikely

the only thing i can really say in his defence is that if he's mafia, he's probably being bussed, because to me it doesn't really feel like they're trying to save him. and it can be difficult to tell between unmotivated town and unmotivated mafia sometimes; if you don't really care about your win condition, it's hard to tell from your actions what your win conditions is

Save the Dragons

i find std hard to sort. the push on datisi had vaguely good vibes, or at least i, uh... idk how to put it into words, but i think scum std makes the points from 327 without prompting more likely, and i think in general it could come from town easily and scum, like, could approach it this way but i'm not sure they would. think 415 is a believable read? the read would have been solidified if he had questioned me townreading him but shrug.

superbowl9

obviously, i didn't like 137; both the katya read and the ari thing felt rather empty to me, like just saying things to say things. the rest of his posts are equally empty. with 213 it's like... ok? is it scummy, because you're not really following up on it? i mean, none of it can't come from town, but there's rather a lack of anything interesting or towny in his posts and i'm not a fan of it. i guess to his credit most mafia players are better at pretending to do things, but some of the stuff he does looks like an *attempt* to contribute, i'm just not feeling it at all

sheepsaysmeep

sheepsaysmeep. i mean, he's bell's block buddy i guess, whatever that means? maybe they both live in california. well, i'd like him to elaborate on 297 because that post is just there and i'm not sure what the follow through is.

This is an insightful post; town points.

weird post

[Dannflor]

yeah my thought was either scum together or dunn knows bowl is flipping town

scum together is probably the simpler solution

[Dannflor]

How do we play superbowl claiming mason

[Dannflor]

yeah that’s pretty amazing

[Dannflor]

I can't really figure out the scum angle for Dunnstral

[Dannflor]

so like my theory is it kinda just seems like everyone in the game except for like bell, drew, shadi, and maka know that you guys are both masons

Maybe scum team is just two of those?

I town read bell and drew so

[Dannflor]

shadi didn't claim mason. I mean maybe that was just an instinctual decision but I feel like it points to one of two things:

A. the scum team believe they know who all of the masons are
B. shadi was the scum team's best chance at end gaming

[Dannflor]

A. points towards like Ari or meowmeow
B. points towards... Mala?

[Dannflor]

I don’t think meow is scum
I’m actually townreading dann with the last couple pages
Bell I’m still solid on a townread
I was reading the post that Dann did in regards to ari so yeah I think she’s town

Which leaves me {Shadi // Drew // std }

I lowkey don’t think scum!drrw rewaches oht to me like he’s doing
So maybe town

So shadiii??

VOTE: shadaaeeeh

Shadi or std which is my slove

eh it feels like it is just Mala here

the read on drew feels kinda made up

and clearly neither mala nor shadi know you are a mason STD, which like... I just think it kinda makes sense if the scum team are clueless here

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: [

I'll figure out what to do with my vote later I am open to be sold anything

look at the timing of this unvote. this is the VC just before Ari unvotes

superbowl9 (4): Aristeia, Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Datisi
Datisi (3): Bell, yekaterina, superbowl9
meowmeow (2): Shadi1337, The Bulge
Shadi1337 (2): meowmeow, sheepsaysmeep
Doctor Drew (1): Malakittens
Malakittens (1): Dunnstral

[Dannflor]

i guess i'm fine with this

will move if needed to at deadline

VOTE: shadi

and then there is this. when the VC looks like this:

superbowl9 (4): Save The Dragons, Doctor Drew, Datisi, sheepsaysmeep
Datisi (3): Bell, yekaterina, superbowl9
meowmeow (2): Shadi1337, The Bulge
Doctor Drew (2): Malakittens, Dunnstral
Shadi1337 (1): meowmeow

Not Voting (1): Aristeia

[Dannflor]

kind of just want to take a hail mary on STD here

ari doesn't appear to know that STD is mason here so that would explain the Bulge kill

realistically it’s what? superbowl9 + malakittens? or shadi1337? or the bulge?

ehhhhh

like not impossible but ehhhhhhhhhhhhh

mayyybe bell?

kind of think bell town now

if superbowl is mafia, datisi can easily be the bus vote

would make the annoyed "feed him answers" comment make a lot of sense - like he didn't read his own partner's post and then used to tie you + sb and also distance

timing of hop on makes a lot of sense as bus vote to freeze wagon movement - you jump on at focal point so looks good if goes over, also makes it unlikely any of the people voting you hop over

Ari spends a lot of time soft pushing sb + dat and then... doesn't vote either despite them being the leading wagons? and despite superbowl being her top scum read it reads like she wants datisi flipped first

[Dannflor]

I guess we have to figure out whether killing Malakittens makes sense from a scum!Ari point of view.

I feel like it is supposed to soft-clear her because she purportedly knows who the masons are. I think it was clear she suspected Bell/STD/sheep yesterday.

it leaves her a very narrow miselim pool to end game with.

it might just be easier for her to kill a mason here if she's scum?

but I'm kinda wondering if Ari didn't want to soft clear the slots that apparently didn't know who the masons were - like Malakittens, because that could be difficult too

[Dannflor]

but like I think the Malakittens night kill is supposed to point towards either Bell/Drew or me/Drew as scum? and Ari does only need two miselims to win the game

[Dannflor]

on the other hand

it might just be stupid to not kill a mason if you're pretty sure you know who they are

is Ari's path to winning necessarily narrower if she just kills a mason last night?

I guess I have to figure out if there are obvious signs Drew or Bell knew about the masons

[Dannflor]

Idk but my reads have been shit this game and occam’s razor probably points towards Bell

[Dannflor]

I‘ll just sheep you and Ari

And worry about casing Ari if the game doesn’t end

[Dannflor]

but idk I've just never seen Bell play scum this well

it would be a first

[Dannflor]

why doesn’t shadi claim mason if the scum team doesn’t know who the masons are

[Dannflor]

uh sorry guys.

i messed up

[Dannflor]

I think it’s just Ari though

[Dannflor]

as much as i'd love to hide my reads

no redactions here