Open 107: Carbon 14 - Game Over! before 716

[ortolan]

Yo

Vote: Occam

BeCaUsE I need a new razor

[ortolan]

Too many people are tripping my scumdar already

Stef seems the worst by far, not only does he complain about being placed on "L-2", or rather earning 2 votes in a 7-player game, but one of these votes was his own.

Then makes the brilliant play of putting occam not on L-2 but L-1 with a third vote, based on artifacts of the random voting stage from me and Mada.

Unlike his pointless "L-2" claim, an "L-1" vote, especially in a case like this, has cause to be scrutinised very heavily.

Almost as scummy as this, however, is Empking and later Caboose trying to extract a claim out of Occam on this basis.

Occam reads pro-town to me, especially as he stood his ground on claiming despite the crappy pressure posts.

Unvote

I'm not going to throw my vote out again yet, I don't think we should be aiming for a lynch without further discussion. Plus at this stage I'd happily vote for any of *three* players (Stef, Empking, Caboose), and I know at least one can't be scum.

You apparently know the definition of "irony" about as well as Alanis Morissette.

Ironically, someone made exactly this comment on my use of the term ironic in a game on this very site a few days ago

[ortolan]

but one of these votes was his own.

People really need to start reading the game.

Ah, sorry. But voting yourself then unvoting in the same post is kind of confusing and pointless...

[ortolan]

fyi: I played in the last iteration of this (Carbon-14)

as it's a 7-player setup, we only get two mislynches before losing.

and nolynching at any stage is a bad move in this setup- if we do so today then there's one nightkill and we start the next day with 6 players- if we lynch wrong that day then there's another nightkill then it's 2v2 townies vs scum in which case we've lost by the end of day 2 anyway (as we would have had we mislynched twice).

[ortolan]

Not to mention that some players haven't really contributed much so far. Such as Ortolan

Hmm, my last post was the post above yours. I just did a re-read because maybe I haven't said much, and my thoughts are similar to what I said in Post 71.

With Stef there's the previously mentioned hypocritical fuss about L-*, more recently an attempt to wagon Occam

Heh.. and even more to the point (since i didn't notice i was at L-1) you put me at L-1 based on an OMGUS vote. Are you scum much?

Not an OMGUS vote, he said:

Neither Mada nor ort, who are the other two players with votes on me right now (from the RV stage) have posted

since the RV stage

. Stef is taking advantage of the fact that there are two votes which don't need justification sitting on me to make it seem like he's justified in voting for me - and after the stink he made about being put at L-2... this is just ridiculous.

This is plainly a reason beyond simply reciprocating your vote.

Empking looks scummy also, insisting on a claim from Occam in posts 36 and 42. Even Stef points out this is unjustified in Post 43, saying the two other votes on Occam are from the RVS.

Caboose, in Post 51 says:

Stef is right about occam. I want an Occam claim.

When Crazy pulls him up on it in Post 58, saying:

Umm, what the?

Unvote
Vote Caboose

I could see one of the newbies saying something like that. But you, no, you must be scum. When is it ever a good idea for someone to claim on Page 3?

He withdraws in the very next post, 59:

I knew I shouldn't have posted with a sinus headache.

I only agree with stef about occam being scummy with taking everything out of context, not about the claim, I honestly don't know why I typed that.

The immediate withdrawal seems rather scummy to me.

So, again, my three suspects are Stef, Empking and Caboose.

Occam and Crazy read somewhat town to me.

Mada is neutral.

I don't like the back and forth on the last page accusing one another of deliberately "misleading" or "confusing"- they seem to be a distraction more than anything else.

[ortolan]

Not sure if I buy Stef's explanation in Post 100:

I don't want to cut the day short by leaving you at L-1 before people had the chance to discuss and before i got some feedback. Me putting you at L-1 was a gambit and as far as i'm concerned it pulled through.

Anyone can make a post-hoc justification of it being a "gambit". Furthermore I don't think you were ever under suspicion for the mere fact of L-1ing someone. It was more the hypocrisy of doing so in light of posts such as 30:

So you put me at L-2 in page 1 of the game based on the fact that.. i unvoted? Nobody was debating if we want a lynch D1. What i do find suspicious is the fact that you felt the need to make a deal out of my post and seriously put me at L-2 and then backpedaling and ambiguously saying that it wasn't "completely serious".

FoS: Empking

WoW! A joke in the RVS considered to be confusing and pointless? Apparently it was only confusing to those who didn't bother to read it properly to see that i unvoted in the same damn post. I wonder how it was confusing and misleading the town. How does a joke selfvote unvoted in the same post mislead anyone? Mada didn't scoop this up because it's crap.

I admit, it was my mistake more than yours. What happened was I was reading through the game and got to Post 30 where you FoS Empking for putting you on L-2. I then read back to see who placed the first vote on you. I saw the

Vote

in your post but not the

Unvote

, so I just assumed you were the person with the previous vote. My apologies. Agreed that it wasn't a good example for Occam to bring up.

I also see that Stef, in attacking Occam, seems to want to justify his case "even if Occam is town" i.e. so if Occam gets lynched and flips town Stef won't look as bad. See:

I think you are scum and if you aren't then you're the worst townie i've ever seen. More than enough to warrant my very confirmed vote on you.

Ehm, are you intentionally trying to play like a VI?

I agree with Mada on Empking- I find his posts to be too short and would prefer if he provided more content.

Re: Crazy vs. Caboose. Caboose did two scummy-as-hell things: asked for an Occam claim then claimed the sinus defence. Crazy pulled him up on this but now Caboose appears to be the aggressor. Granted they've both been fairly inactive.

In reply to Stef's Post 109:

Orlotan:
- Why does Occam appear pro-town to you? Please elaborate with explicit points.

I saw the wagon against him as scum-motivated. Especially Empking and Caboose asking for a claim with him having 2 random votes on him. I thought the way he held his ground was a mild town-tell.

- Why is it confusing when i self-vote and unvote in the same post in the RVS as a joke? And it wasn't pointless. It was a joke in the RVS. It was supposed to make people at least smile. Don't you know Ahmed the dead terrorist?

Again, sorry, I answered this above.

- How is voting Occam ("an attempt to wagon Occam") scummy if i think he's scum and i bring arguments to back that up?

Notice I'm not voting for you. I have however found several aspects of your play scummy- these I have already pointed out, but to re-iterate: Your L-1 hypocrisy and later claim it was a gambit. Also what looks like you trying to distance from an Occam-town reveal in the case of his lynch. I also disagree with your OMGUS argument against him, but don't think is a scum-tell.

- How is his vote NOT OMGUS when his stated reason is clearly not enough to warrant a confirmed vote at L-1 under the shady circumstances?

I don't consider OMGUS a proper scumtell and so don't see any real point discussing this.

- Why would you say you don't like the accusations regarding Occam misleading and misreping? How do they seem to be distractions when i actually back them up with arguments and quotes? If you are going to bash my case and defend Occam at least have the decency to point out the flaws ( if you can find them ) in my case. Unless you do that you are defending Occam with no real reason and misleading as well.

I consider I have justified everything I've said. I also didn't say "you are scum and Occam is town", but on the balance of probability at present I think you're more likely to be scum than he is. I also don't like the suggestion that somehow my suspicion of you has arisen from nothing.

[ortolan]

This is getting utterly ridiculous.

Carboose is posting daily but he hasn't posted here in 3 days.
Same for Orlotan.

Darox: Please prod these two or replace them.

Please...you post in this game far more frequently than the average player. Also I favour somewhat substantial posts with content rather than one line replies (people often criticise you for double/triple posting, it depends on preference). I would say I have posted more content this game than Caboose, Crazy or Empking.

[ortolan]

Plus I was writing up Post 132 since yesterday, just didn't get a chance to finish and didn't want to segment my points. So basically people have different styles of posting (sorry for triple post).

[ortolan]

[quoteAnd regarding my attempt to distance myself from a possible Occam lynch in the opportunity he's town, that's not the case.[/quote]

Oh...thanks for clearing that up

I do want to hear more from the Crazy/Caboose duo though.

[ortolan]

I am completely perplexed as to what's taking place between Crazy and Caboose...

[ortolan]

Still waiting for Crazy and Caboose's commentary, and for an explanation of posts 131 and 141 by Caboose

[ortolan]

I don't think the hammer at this point was a wise move personally. Caboose's behaviour is unexplained, but not necessarily scummy.

[ortolan]

There is absolutely no reason not to mass-claim immediately. I'm townie.

If somebody has a guilty investigation, its better for them tpo claim it without revealing the naive cop.

Doesn't make a difference, if they have a guilty then we know that the other investigation role is redundant and no more useful than another townie.

[ortolan]

Are you going to claim, Empking?

[ortolan]

We are in LYLO. We have one of each of the town roles, and 2 scum. The 2 scum each need to fake-claim one of the three town-roles. Thus we can reduce our scum-list such that if no-one gets counter-claimed, they are guaranteed town. Furthermore, if two or more people claim the same role we know at least one of them are lying, and can work out by analysing their posts and interactions with each other who the more likely ones to be lying are. There is no excuse not to role-claim immediately.

[ortolan]

I already did claim:

There is absolutely no reason not to mass-claim immediately. I'm townie.

Occam is lying.

Reasons to believe me over him:

He _quickhammered_ Caboose yesterday
Post 31, defence of Empking who is looking like his scumbuddy
He _quickhammered_ Caboose

If you need anything more do tell me, I honestly didn't find his day 1 posts very scummy outwardly apart from the whole quickhammer thing which should be sending off alarm bells. If you want me to dig more dirt I can, until then

Vote: Occam

[ortolan]

Why are you a target?

I know for a fact Occam is scum, it is between him and Empking

[ortolan]

...Me and Occam both claimed townie. So one of us has to be scum.

But yer, I missed Empking's claim

I believe you over him but I don't want to leave things to chance- I know for a fact Occam is scum.

Furthermore I believe there is more objective evidence against Occam- he _quickhammered_ Caboose.

Also, if the anti-town faction is werewolves, then if we lynch Occam today, tonight Stef can guarantee our win tomorrow by telling us who the innocent/guilty of you two is. If the anti-town faction is mafia then we will be left with you and Empking claiming you got a guilty on the other. Nevertheless, that's still a 1/2 chance of just getting the win guaranteed. Furthermore at this stage I'd say I'd pretty much guarantee supporting you over Empking.

[ortolan]

Nothing? But in that case I said I would support you over Empking anyway, so I don't see what the problem for you is?

[ortolan]

You are employing 100% circular logic. You are suggesting I am trying to save Empking from being lynched, but it looks to me as though you are trying to save Occam from the same, and are pre-emptively accusing me of doing so to Empking. You've got me thinking me you're scum with Occam now. After all, why would anyone turn down the offer of having their counter-claimer lynched tomorrow, unless Empking is exactly the lynch you need to take the game?

Unvote

Vote: Crazy

[ortolan]

A. I am not sold on Occam being scum; however you already said that you'd support lynching Empking over me.

Please explain?

B. If Empking flipped scum when he was lynched, it would prove exactly who the other scum was. This is not the case if Occam-scum was lynched.

Are you implying if he flipped scum this would implicate me? Why? This isn't relevant anyway as your clumsy attempt to get Empking quicklynched on this last day has revealed you as scum.

C. There's no way a townie would vote me like that because it opens the opportunity for a quick-hammer, while neither Stef and Occam have even checked in yet about their opinion on who to lynch.

I'm sure you're scum. Notice how no-one's hammered you yet to win the game, if you are a townie? I know Occam's lying and now you're defending him. That's all the evidence I need.

Anyhow, clearly the final say will lie in Stef's hands, so I'll just wait to see if she decides to vote you or Empking (as obviously your scumbuddy Occam's going to vote with you).

[ortolan]

See, you were bribing me to vote Occam by saying that tomorrow you'd support me in lynching Empking. But when I asked you why not just vote Empking now, because he'd give solid information if he flipped scum, you chickened out and OMGUSed me.

And anything you can say about me and Occam can be said double-fold about you and Empking, since Empking will give solid information when he's lynched and you had already said that you'd vote for him!

This is still total WIFOM though. Yes if Empking flipped werewolf I would be the other werewolf. Yes if he flipped mafia Occam would be other mafia. You've gone in to so much detail, but you've seemingly deliberately ignored the other very substantial possibility, that he flips as the cop and you and Occam as mafia claim the win. So the whole point about "Empking" giving solid information is moot- yes, he will, but if you and Occam are the mafia it will be irrelevant as you will have already won. I think you're trying to WIFOM Stef into lynching Empking by misrepresenting the possibilities.

[ortolan]

He'll give solid information when he dies, which will win the game. And from my point of view he has to be scum.

Now with you and Occam, you have the latter, but Occam doesn't give any valuable information when he dies.

This is completely untrue, the amount of "information" any lynch will give at this point is irrelevant. Whomever we lynch today will guarantee the win of either town or mafia/werewolves- yes if Empking were to be lynched and flipped either mafia or werewolf then the game would be won for town as they would know whether to kill me or Occam next. However, if he flips town then we've lost instantly, and you and Occam will take the victory. Furthermore, I know Occam is scum. You've tried to distract me from him and tried to get the lynch onto Empking, _your_ counter-claimer, instead. This makes me think you are scum with Occam and want to seal the deal for mafia. It's quite simple.

[ortolan]

good game

I thought Stef was gonna hammer Empking

Good idea of claiming Crazy, I thought we were completely screwed when you said that.