Mini Theme 2312: PiggyGal15/Vanderscamp hood

[Vanderscamp]

Hey hey hey

I'm the evil twin, infinity is the oracle!
That role is pretty useless for a twin other than figuring out if they are poisoned or not.

I'll probably just claim that and you can take one of the others.

Also, I'm leaning towards not claiming twin just yet because I think it might be unstrategic to do so so early and I might get infinity to look worse when they claim it and I can explain why that's bad.


Big question we need to figure out soon is can we sell that vortox is not the demon, or do we have to roll with it if it's too easily confirmed?

[Vanderscamp]

Yes, but the issue is that if everyone figures out their info is inaccurate, then people will know there's a vortox and they'll be able to work backwards into some very very strong info from that!
So for that reason I lean towards just giving true info with my "oracle" ability just so that it makes it harder for them to figure out.

I think me claiming oracle is the way to go, I think it's what I would do if I didn't have access to bluffs. Both twins giving different roles probably correctly implies that whoever the evil one is has bluffs because they're sitting next to the demon

[Vanderscamp]

Of your three roles, I vaguely lean towards you claiming town crier because it's the only role that the town doesn't have an easy incentive to kill at some point, the other two are roles that don't have any value past N2. With that role though you have to be pretty careful to not get boxed in, especially if they ever figure out it's a vortox.

Of course you can just yolo any claim you want, it's an interesting spot for it because eventually it's going to be revealed that the minion is a twin, if you claim something random and some good happens to have that role, you can always pivot to something else that makes sense and people might think that you're not demon because demon can just use one of their bluffs.
It has to actually make sense though, why you would want to randomly claim something else.
If you were good, what would you do? Would you just open claim your role to both neighbors? I wouldn't, so I'm not going to just yet.
We have a lot of flexibility here though as long as we can sound good and pull it off

[Vanderscamp]

I'm also going to be really really careful to make sure which of my neighbor chats I'm using before sending any posts like these, haha

[Vanderscamp]

If town executes the good twin we win the game!
So if that happens that'll be pretty sweet.
I definitely wouldn't be saying all this pro-town shit in the thread as any random minion haha, I just need to try hard to win the inevitable twin battle.

Regarding town crier, it's not too bad, because when the twin war inevitably happens, everyone will know that either infinity or me is the minion, so we're really the only two options for you to paint as minion. Ideally infinity, but if for some reason I end up being mechanically outed evil, you can always just go with that too.

And btw I'm not claiming twin to anybody yet, so make sure to not let slip that you know there are twins in play before the thread at large does.

[Vanderscamp]

We also don't need any kind of fixed plan yet IMO, we can just kind of wait and see what happens.

Vortox and evil twin is a really interesting combination of evil characters, I'm thinking in general we probably want to be pretty aggressive because if things go wrong for us they'll probably go really wrong, because if town figures out the demon type they'll have access to a HUGE amount of solid information, so I'm thinking we probably want to try to win quickly and be a little more averse to bussing than an average game.
But that's not fixed and it's possible that the path to victory will involve me being outed evil for whatever reason and you going full town-siding mode, or even vice versa (although that will be tricky)

[Vanderscamp]

Ok so there are a few worlds we need to choose between given the current info:

-Anix is evil (if Anix is killed, this will be proven incorrect when a death happens in the night, because he's not the demon and town will know the minion is one of the twins)

So let's ignore that one for long term strategizing

-Nurse is the demon

This is a world but I'm not sure anyone will go for it

-Nurse is sitting next to a no dashi, this would have to be erinys

-vortox game



I think these last two are literally our only realistic options.

So this might be a spot where we just have to admit the vortox world.

If we don't, we sell the team as erinys + infinity and if specifically atsi or Hu Tao have information that doesn't make sense, we're kind of outed.

This is possible if we kill one of them tonight but there is a decent chance of a literal math loss from trying to do this, I think we might just be better off killing either atsi or hu Tao tonight anyway (erinys also being possible) and keeping our options a bit more open

[Vanderscamp]

Erin atsi nurse and Anix have already all voted for Anix, so Anix should be dying regardless of what happens today, that's why I think I can get away with defending Anix even though I'd definitely like the Anix kill to happen

[Vanderscamp]

The more I think about it the more I think we just have to give our info assuming there's a vortox, the world where we try to hide it is just so crazy specific and we just have massive potential to get completely blown out.

I think we should both probably just give info that assumes a vortox is in play, it's very possible that a town somewhere will end up getting information that confirms one of us as evil, but even if that happens, we essentially have two win conditions, either you winning the normal way or me winning the infinity battle, I think we just need to try for one or both of those things and keep our options open

[Vanderscamp]

I think you should vote for Anix if you can reasonably do so

In the event of a flower girl we want you to be in the pool that contains the most potential demons, right now the pool is 3 voting (excluding Anix) and 2 not voting (excluding the two twins)

Best shift that to a 4 vs 1 if possible with you in the 4

[Vanderscamp]

Makes sense for me to vote, I just don't know if we want to end Day so early or not.

And yeah, I've been thinking of whether or not I should fake "false" results, and I think trying to pretend we're not in a Vortox game is going to be too complicated and will probably lead to us getting outed. I think winning by killing Infinity is probably our easiest way here right now, so we should def lean into that.

Yeah, probably.
Depending on whether or not I nominate today you might have to make an interesting decision on whether to call infinity good or not.
I think you bussing me is ok, as is you calling me good, both options seem viable atm

[Vanderscamp]

So, with this day, Flowergirl will know that: Random Nurse, AniX, atsi, HighPrincessErinys, and Hu Tao are (after learning there's a Vortox) not the demon. Town Crier will know if Random Nurse is the minion - if we are going with Infinity as Evil Twin (which still checks out with Flowergirl), we can't push EITHER atsi or Erinys as demon... I think we really need to figure out who (or even if we have) the Flowergirl is and kill them before they can fully give results after Vortox comes out.

OR

we push Infinity as the demon? With counter-claims for oracle, it would be the demon claiming the evil twin's good twin power? That way atsi or Erinys could still be the minion, and demon and minion are beside each other?

I don't think I want to push infinity as the demon, I'm happy to play it normally.

I also wouldn't be super super worried about flower girl, because we know that both of us are evil, Anix is dying, nurse is artist, infinity is oracle, and so among the three players remaining one of them we get to kill tonight, so the chance we get wrecked by a flower girl is fairly low, especially since one of the three players has to be an outsider.
I think our best kill tonight is the person we think of those three is least likely to be an outsider, so we minimise town information.
So definitely don't worry about voting in a weird way to avoid flower girl, if we lose to that we lose to it and I also have outs to win the game in that world too.

[Vanderscamp]

Oh wait, I guess you can still talk after death, so killing the Flowergirl won't help us much... hmmm

If we kill someone in the night, assuming normal blood on the clocktower rules, that person doesn't get info that night due to the night action order.

[Vanderscamp]

I think I'm going to claim "all my info" to Anix during the night as it makes sense for me to do so here; if he's the demon he's dead and there's nothing he can do about it, and I would know he's not the minion

[Vanderscamp]

The more I think about it the more I think town crier might just be an unnecessary role for you to claim, why box ourselves in?
Clockmaker or juggler both seem like better options for you because then you're not forced to pick a side regarding the minion battle. It'll be easy enough to give info that is vortox wrong and doesn't narrow things down too much, and once we're at D2 we don't have to worry too much about the town killing random non-useful goods anymore.

Have you claimed anything to hu Tao yet?

[Vanderscamp]

Btw, if anyone asks, what are we going to say we said to each other in this chat?
I claimed juggler/oracle/sage to Anix so presumably I did the same to you.
We can even say you claimed juggler and a couple other roles and we both agreed to make public juggler claims in case you want to take juggler as a claim

[Vanderscamp]

Yeah, the real issue with town crier is that it essentially forces you to take a side with the twin battle, which isn't necessarily super bad, it just limits options and I feel we don't really need to.
A random juggler guess should be pretty easy to give info for that doesn't actually give a huge amount of info to the thread, or even a clockmaker result.

Make sure if you do juggle it's a reasonable guess, whatever kind of guess you think you would make as the actual good juggler (obviously without your additional info about the twins)


And yeah, re: the NK, I think either those two or hu Tao, whoever we think is the least likely to be an outsider probably, I have no idea who that is atm but we can iso at night

[Vanderscamp]

I'd assume if you were juggler we would probably have talked a bit about juggler strategy, maybe try something like what I did with the three non vortox demons for someone?

It depends a bit on what your "reads" are too.
Do you think Anix is evil? That might affect your juggle.
Also, do you think as juggler you would have juggled before this point to not risk the day ending?
If no, that's completely fine!
Just as long as it's consistent, it's very easy to fake a role believably at this stage, we just have to make sure we get the details right

[Vanderscamp]

Ok so in the worlds we're trying to sell, two of the things you said are correct, so saying you got a result of 1 or 3 is probably best

[Vanderscamp]

I'll iso players to see if I can get outsider reads

[Vanderscamp]

I think Eryn has the highest chance of being an outsider.
Thinking more about it it might actually be good to try and hit the outsider because if there's one outsider claim, that person is confirmed good in the vortox world

[Vanderscamp]

Either way Eryn didn't get night actions the first night so that probably has to be fine

[Vanderscamp]

Was infinity not told they were a good twin?
I'm starting to wonder

[Vanderscamp]

I'm wondering if it's better to just not claim twin and if infinity does, just deny it

[Vanderscamp]

But I did give oracle in a 3 to Anix so maybe that's a little too much of a coincidence

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No clue

[Vanderscamp]

Damn I wish you'd gone with 3, this way you've confirmed Random as town
Might pay dividends in getting you cred though

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Wouldn't that be the dream haha

[Vanderscamp]

We might be in some trouble

This game could be math lost depending on hu tao's role


I think hu tao is either dreamer or seamstress and that info could be damning


If the game is not math lost I think we win 100% of the time so let's just hope it's not

[Vanderscamp]

Very possible, that seems most likely given claims so far

You might need to put a little more effort into solving in the thread imo

[Vanderscamp]

Yeah, I don't think we have to be too worried about hu tao being given information that will literally out our team either.

I think the info about someone not having checked their role PM is like the perfect level of info we should probably expect from hu tao: helpful for the good team, but not outing for us