Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703

[orangepenguin]

/confirm.

[orangepenguin]

Personally I don't see what's wrong with a RV stage in an open setup - I also don't see the argument against Crazy as valid.

I don't see what's wrong with random voting either. I don't see how Crazy knowing that it's a night start is a valid case, because he obviously knew about the set up beforehand, if he voted for it in the set-up thread.

[orangepenguin]

Once again,

vote: Panda Stomper 85

until he tells me what happened to Panda Stompers 1 through 84.

I'm more worried about where the first bio is..

vote:bionocchi2

[orangepenguin]

I'm not entirely convinced by your explanation of Panda Stomper 64's untimely demise, but I'm willing to downgrade you and vote the humorless villain orangepenguin.

I am not the humorless villian. I am the waddle-talking serious pro-town penguin.

[orangepenguin]

I hid behind Xtoxm last night and will hide behind ortolan tonight.

[orangepenguin]

I think they're saving you for later, IMO. Getting the idea that you're scummy out there, so they can set up a lynch on you later, assuming you're town and they are scum. If they aren't scum, then I don't think they're doing that, but just my interpretation.

[orangepenguin]

There's a term for that in the wiki some place. Forgot what it's called. But it has something to do with spreading a lie enough that people start to believe that it is true.

[orangepenguin]

There's a term for that in the wiki some place. Forgot what it's called. But it has something to do with spreading a lie enough that people start to believe that it is true.

Argumentum ad nauseam

?

That would be it.


TCS is at L-3. I don't like his comment that he's sure me or Panda are scum, especially after only 6 pages. He must have a thing against exotic animals. I bet the cougar is next on his list.

[orangepenguin]

EBWOP: Well, make that 7 pages, besides the fact that it was 6 when he made the comment.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

, now that ppl iz talkin

Also, I got a bad vibe from my initial votes on the penguin and the panda. I can't really decide between the two of them, but I'm fairly certain that one of them is scum.

Care to explain your vibe and suspicions at all?

[orangepenguin]

I prefer replacing over lal, especially in cases like Panda, where he obviously just left the site..instead of..active lurking.

[orangepenguin]

heres my first PBPA of the game... and OP gets the honors,
1) confirm
2) defends crazy in RV
3)sarcastic random vote.
4) another sarcastic post
5) hider claim...
6) not really sure, guess ill have to go back and read in context.
7)talks about wiki, still added nothing to the game.
8)says he doesn't like TCS coment... so instead of pressuring, he makes a joke about it. i have seen this done a lot by scum.
9)ERWOP
10)uh oh... actually questions, TCS, but thats because TCS says OP is scum.
11) more game strategy.

So all in all, we are nearly ten pages in and Orangepenguin has added no useful content to the game. i even asked him what his thoughts were, and he adds a one liner about not lynching lurkers.

OP who are your top three suspects and why?

UNVOTE VOTE Orangepenguin

My one liner about lurkers wasn't even a response to your comment.

10) I only questioned him because his reasonings were stupid and random, and sounded like they were jokes. Not because he said I was scum, even though that caught my attention.

My top three suspects?
You/cammn/TCS. I don't really have a top suspect, but the four of you look kind of suspicious. cammn mainly because I disagree with his insistence to lynch lurkers, TCS because his odd reasonings (which might be omgus, but irregardless..c'mon!), and you.

[orangepenguin]

Its not an insistence.
Its a life choice.

Plus.. addition fail.

My top

three

suspects?
You/cammn/TCS. I don't really have a top suspect, but the

four

of you look kind of suspicious.

Heh, I guess. I don't think that it's a valid argument against you, moreso that I disagree on that.

And was it a addition fail? Or did I purposely left out my real top suspect? (or more likely, penguins = bad at math )

[orangepenguin]

unvote

Pretty self explanatory at this point.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

Pretty self explanatory at this point.

Explain anyway.

Er... O.K.

bio = random vote.

my post = unvote random vote.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

Pretty self explanatory at this point.

Explain anyway.

Er... O.K.

bio = random vote.

my post = unvote random vote.

so you don't have any top suspects, or anyone worthy of a vote after 11 pages?

See 50 posts before this one (post 226). I'm just not going to throw my vote out there so aimlessly. I want it to be justified and everything. *shrug*

[orangepenguin]

So basically all I amount to is a policy lynch? That's going to benefit the town for sure.

Vote: TCS

[orangepenguin]

So basically all I amount to is a policy lynch? That's going to benefit the town for sure.

Vote: TCS

The only way the case on you is a "policy lynch" is if you agree that you are active lurking. Is this true?

im gonna try and make this as simple as possible.
Active Lurking = extremely scummy.
Orangepenguin = Active Lurker
Lynching Active Lurker =/= Policy Lynch
therefore:
Lynching OP =/= Policy lynch.

does that make sense?

im voting you and want a lynch on you because i think you are scum, not because you are lurking. TCS never said lynch the lurker, he said lynch the one pretending to help.

To answer Hascel, no, I am not active lurking. I have been checking the thread every day, and have posted as much as I could. He thinks I am though, so it is a policy lynch. ("lynch all lurkers" -- not specifically active lurkers). I am not an active lurker, I am just being passed off as one. TCS comes in with this pathetic case based on little to nothing, other than him claiming I am "pretending to help". First off all, he came in with this joke/random vote on me, and then..it somehow becomes a serious one, which I don't get at all. It's not omgus at all. I just happen to be the target. I am calling him on it.

StrangerCoug is referencing ONE game where I "lurked" (which, btw, I didn't really lurk, or active lurked, I just sucked). I just happened to be given a scum role..in that game. I've been called a lurker in many games, the majority of them I was town aligned. I personally don't consider myself lurking or active lurking. If you put me on the spot like this, I will respond.

You are voting me based on craplogic. Not because you think I am scum. And no, to go against with what you said, I wasn't going to vote you "because you are voting me". If I am as omgus as you say, I could've voted away from my random vote ages ago.

Do I think TCS is scum? Yes. Am I 100% positive? No, I am not. How can you be in this game? But based on his odd behavior early on and the way he picked his top 3 suspects, which in itself was weird and suspicious, and the way he is pushing this nonsense, I do think he is inherantly scummy.

But I find it laughable to say that I am pretending to help, when certain people are doing the exact same thing. I could put out a case too on someone seemingly random. That way, it looks like I am doing something pro-town, except, if the case is terrible, than it has no merit nor is it helping the town.

And I agree with whoever said that this case came out of nowhere.

[orangepenguin]

I don't get this OP wagon.

I still quite like my vote...

Lazy.

Yeah, the OP wagon seems like it's just... there... without any reason to be there...

Lazier.

What's not to get? There's two PBPAs of the guy. Maybe you don't get it, or see any reason, because... he hasn't done anything? I'm sincerely at a loss as to what you're missing about this wholly appropriate wagon.

Yes, they are lazy because they see no value to your case at all.

[orangepenguin]

Waiting for OP to explain himself *taps foot impatiently*

I assume you mean TCS's last post, which I'll address in a sec. If not, tap your foot louder, and be more specific.

[orangepenguin]

To answer Hascel, no, I am not active lurking. I have been checking the thread every day, and have posted as much as I could. He thinks I am though, so it is a policy lynch. ("lynch all lurkers" -- not specifically active lurkers). I am not an active lurker, I am just being passed off as one. TCS comes in with this pathetic case based on little to nothing, other than him claiming I am "pretending to help". First off all, he came in with this joke/random vote on me, and then..it somehow becomes a serious one, which I don't get at all. It's not omgus at all. I just happen to be the target. I am calling him on it.

Well, if you were, in fact,

reading

this thread, you might have had something to say about me insisting that PandaStomper85 was scummy even though he posted next to nothing. Or you might have had an opinion about Haschel C. asking for people to summarize the game for him. Or you could have had an opinion about my wagon, or Iceman's citation of wiki, or bionic's "trap," or bionic's discounting of the wiki.

Instead, your posts have been pretty much without content. Your longest post of the game prior to this was to attack lurker-lynching, which I suppose makes sense since you are quite intentionally lurking, it seems. I've posted your entire contribution up to this point. I don't think that I need to drive the point home that your posting in this game has been severely lacking in opinions about who the scum are.

This is all pretty accurate, I suppose, except maybe the part about me intentionally lurking, but for the sake of the coversation, I might as well have been.

Here's the rub: I know that you don't completely lack opinions or thoughts on things. I just saw you single-handedly win a game for the town because you correctly labeled

two

players as scum, when the entire town was hoodwinked, and without the benefit of investigation. Surely you have an opinion about

something

in this game.

That was really a fluke. Before that, I have never won a game before- every other time I was in lylo, I'd lose. I just got lucky. But thanks.

StrangerCoug is referencing ONE game where I "lurked" (which, btw, I didn't really lurk, or active lurked, I just sucked). I just happened to be given a scum role..in that game. I've been called a lurker in many games, the majority of them I was town aligned. I personally don't consider myself lurking or active lurking. If you put me on the spot like this, I will respond.

You are voting me based on craplogic. Not because you think I am scum. And no, to go against with what you said, I wasn't going to vote you "because you are voting me". If I am as omgus as you say, I could've voted away from my random vote ages ago.

Do I think TCS is scum? Yes. Am I 100% positive? No, I am not. How can you be in this game? But based on his odd behavior early on and the way he picked his top 3 suspects, which in itself was weird and suspicious, and the way he is pushing this nonsense, I do think he is inherantly scummy.

Wow. Did I read this correctly. Did you just say that the fact that I

scumhunt

is suspicious?

I have no words.

No. Scumhunting is always good, when it's genuine. The way you chose your suspects, and later expanded on them for silly reasons is what was suspicious.

But I find it laughable to say that I am pretending to help, when certain people are doing the exact same thing. I could put out a case too on someone seemingly random. That way, it looks like I am doing something pro-town, except, if the case is terrible, than it has no merit nor is it helping the town.

And I agree with whoever said that this case came out of nowhere.

Sadly, much like life, the universe, and everything, something has to come out of nothing at some point. So my something (the case against you), has arisen from nothing (your sum contribution to finding scum).

Ah, sure. Fair enough.

[orangepenguin]

..

Vote, Orange Penguin

You are voting me based on craplogic.
Do I think TCS is scum? Yes.

This is all pretty accurate, I suppose, except maybe the part about me intentionally lurking, but for the sake of the coversation, I might as well have been.

If it is craplogic, then It isn't accurate. If you think he is scum, then don't agree for the "sake of conversation"!

Why shouldn't I when the rest of the town has agreed? It's pointless to keep discussing it now, and so I am moving on. If he thinks I was active lurking, great. I certainly am not right now.

I have never won a game before- every other time I was in lylo, I'd lose. I just got lucky.

Then why, pray tell, are you good for the town, even if you AREN'T scum?
Are you really saying.. "look, I am not any good at this game.. that is why I have been holding back"?

What I meant by that was that I have won games before, and the one TCS mentioned I did win by myself, but before that, I have never won a game before (although I have been on winning sides before). All I was simply saying was that in that game I was lucky because I had these powers, and by using them, I lynched two scum, and won, but really, it was nothing special- I didn't have a case on them at all, and I actually thought one of them was town..so..I don't see where you or SC are trying to go with that comment, but I wasn't insinuating anything farther than mentioning that past game. =/

Bolding mine.

[orangepenguin]

I have never won a game before- every other time I was in lylo, I'd lose. I just got lucky.

Then why, pray tell, are you good for the town, even if you AREN'T scum?
Are you really saying.. "look, I am not any good at this game.. that is why I have been holding back"?

I suck too, but I don't use the fact that I suck as a get out of jail free card. I still make every attempt to play to the best of my ability with what I know. If I win, yay. If I lose, serves me right. Every game is a lesson in and of itself.

The only thing I personally think I suck at is making cases and presenting them to the town. Which is kind of a big deal in Mafia. Otherwise, I think I am a pretty meh player. But since I can't make a case out of a paper bag, I don't tend to make many cases, but when I do, they aren't anything mindblowing. I try my best, like you do. I attempt to stay active in the game - I have never been replaced in a game (i've been in about 20 now..). I try my best, I really do. Some games I play better than others though, and those games tend to be the ones I enjoy reading and playing in. Can't really say that thus far for this one.

[orangepenguin]

OK, here's my two sense after looking at this OP guy:

I think they're saving you for later, IMO. Getting the idea that you're scummy out there, so they can set up a lynch on you later, assuming you're town and they are scum. If they aren't scum, then I don't think they're doing that, but just my interpretation.

It's hard for me to picture town theorizing about scum motives like this. What I'm getting from this post is that orangepenguin knows ortolan is town and therefore is trying to distance from a mislynch.

I must've skipped over this somehow, but now noticed it in ort's post.

I was theorizing about scum motives, and in order for it to be an actual scum motive, for what I was talking about, you'd have to assume ort was a townie in that scenario. I don't think he is scum though, just based on prior games with him, but I have in no way cleared him out and labeled him "town". If you read what I was talking about, I was speculating about one thing, so for Point A to be true in that scenario, then Point B does.

unvote

Since my vote is causing so much dilemma, I just won't vote. That is, until I make an actual case against someone. That way, I am being good by conforming to other peoples standard of good play and I have stuff to back up my reasoning. In the meantime, pick select portions of what I say to go and twist it around.

[orangepenguin]

unvote

Since my vote is causing so much dilemma,

I just won't vote

. That is,

until I make an actual case against someone.

That way, I am being good by conforming to other peoples standard of good play and I have stuff to back up my reasoning. In the meantime, pick select portions of what I say to go and twist it around.

So no to your question.

[orangepenguin]

Guys, I'm feeling kind of stuck here.
I'm not really sure I see OP as scum, I don't like TCS as scum, I obviously don't like MYSELF as scum.....
And the deadline is creeping up.

Out of the three people with two votes (you, me, TCS), I don't really like it either. If I had to lynch one of the three, it would be TCS.. obviously. I know that I am not scum, and I am not sold at all that you are scum. TCS would be the best choice out of the three of us, but I am not quite as convinced as I was before, and maybe OMGUS took over before. But I still think his case is crap. So if it come down to deadline, I will be voting TCS, but there are people with ZERO votes on them right now that I'd rather see lynched because I think they are scummier than the three of us.

[orangepenguin]

I guess some of you haven't heard of patience. Like I've said, I am not going to vote, until I make a case on somebody. My last post is hinting that I have a suspect - which means I will be making a case on them. I am not going to say "vote: playera" and then explain later, but be called scummy because I didn't provide reasoning.

I do NOT like how TCS is insisting that my last post didn't contribute anything- I just shared my thoughts, how is that not contributing? I did the same thing cammn did. Yes, I was sharing who I would vote for, because it's a 3 way tie- or it was before certain people jumped on the wagon quickly.

If you wanna know the player in question - afatchic. But I haven't been on the site all day, besides my last post, and I won't be on again until this afternoon. Hence, no case yet. Haschel, please don't vote me yet. My next post after this will include a case- a hopefully detailed one that will please you (with a vote), and hopefully others. I hope that isn't vague enough for you SC.

Of course, I totally expect to be hammered by this afternoon, for stupid reasons, by people who claim I don't contribute, when they have done little themselves. In which case, I hope I will have time to claim, because it will sure hurt the town otherwise.

The bottom line: TCS' case on me that I have done nothing this game - wrong. His case is simply that I haven't provided a case on anyone yet. So has others, if you haven't noticed.

(my next post won't be until tomorrow afternoon, at around 6 ET, give or take a few hours)

[orangepenguin]

Well, right now, I am in the middle of the case. If after I post it, people are still not convinced, I will claim my role, even though I rather wouldn't day 1.

Herschal, I promise my next post will include my case, lol. I just had to address these posts. In the meantime, I must say I don't really like how nobody takes me seriously. Yes, a softclaim. Either I don't claim, and die by town, or I claim, and die by scum. I am going with the latter.

[orangepenguin]

If after I post it, people are still not convinced, I will claim my role, even though I rather wouldn't day 1.

Here is my opinion: If you are saying you are a power role, I think you leave it at that - but you need to say it definitively. At least that would leave some WIFOM for scum - not knowing if they need to target you directly. If you are hider, they miss. If you are watcher, you can watch the person you said you would hide behind - again to WIFOM an prevent them targeting for the double kill.

So, I guess just knowing power / vanilla is better than knowing the exact role at this stage of the game.

Well, I am a power. I'll go with your advice, and leave it at that.

Of course, with my record and everything, I doubt anyone believes me anyways at this point.

BACK TO MY CASE! (so many distractions!)

[orangepenguin]

Well, I am a power. I'll go with your advice, and leave it at that.

Of course, with my record and everything, I doubt anyone believes me anyways at this point.

1. Record means nothing. I am 2-7 as town (0-1 as scum) at this point and it won't slow me down one bit.

2. I actually believe you.

1. I didn't mean game win record, I meant my posts in this thread, since everyone (majority, not just you) seems to agree that I haven't contributed much. I think my posts have been fair enough though. I surely could've been more enthusiastic in the earlier days, but there isn't much I can do about that now. Being the center of attention right now has definitely made this game more enjoyable, oddly enough.

Doing a full blown case against afatchic has changed my opinions a little, but you'll see why soon enough.

No more posts from me (hopefully) until I post a case.

[orangepenguin]

Here is a PBPA. I am posting the post # by page with quotes, and giving my personal analysis of the quote. If you think my analysis on a specific quote is wrong, I have provided the locations for each one, where you can see them in full context. I am going to be as objective as possible. You can make you own decisions.

Post 6, Page 1

/confirm

He confirms. Nothing unordinary about his post.

Post 27, Page 2

well i never got my RV, so i

Vote Crazy

After the false day start where several players got to random vote, the day went into night after Crazy pointed out that the game is a night start. afatchic points out that he never got to random vote anyone, so he chooses Crazy. (second person that was voting Crazy at the time)

Post 43, Page 2

Just an idea here, but the RVS is supposed to be random, so yeah everyone voting the same person defeats the idea. lol

After several other people voted Crazy, afc offers this one-liner about how everyone voting Crazy defeats the purpose of random voting, even though they were voting him for knowing about the night start (which isn't really valid, since Crazy knew about the set-up beforehand). Not sure where he was really going with this. Probably a joke, but whatever. Nothing really interesting.

---------------------------------

Once again,

vote: Panda Stomper 85

until he tells me what happened to Panda Stompers 1 through 84.

This argument has my full support.

vote: Panda Stomper 85

Also,

FOS: orangepenguin

for making light of this serious line of questioning.

Okay, off-topic for a second, but this is where TCS randomly became suspicious of me...for this post of mine.

Once again,

vote: Panda Stomper 85

until he tells me what happened to Panda Stompers 1 through 84.

I'm more worried about where the first bio is..

vote:bionocchi2

Obviously, both me and SC were joking because it was basically the random voting stage, so...it just doesn't make much sense IMO. His case now amounts to that I haven't done anything/contributed, yet I have surely stepped my game up.
---------------------------------------------

Back to afatchic..sorry, but I am sick of looking up the page number and stuff every point, so by loosing that, I should go faster, for some reason.

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

Doesn't like ort's idea of PR claiming and instead suggests plan for everyone to pretend they are the hider. Obviously, we won't know how well this plan will work out until a hider dies, so assuming this idea went well in his other game he finished, it's a relatively pro-town idea.

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

ortolan's obsession with gaming the power roles is neither good, nor fun.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

The answer is.. we should be playing mafia instead.

so by doing what i said we should do we are somehow not playing mafia?

you say we should stop talking about power roles, yet that seems to be what your enitre last post was about, being a little hypocritical?

Unvote, Vote camn

for being against something that may be very helpful for the town.

Unvotes his joke random vote against Crazy and instead votes cammn for being against his hider idea. Fair enough. cammn later clarifies that he isn't against the idea though, but it was a simple enough error by afatchic.

camn- sorry i misunderstood what you was trying to say, but i get it now. i also thought ort seemed very scummy with his behavior over the PR's, but it seemed somewhat newbish to me, just something to keep in mind though.

however i don't really agree with what TCS is saying. first by doing what i said, it would give an inno from last night upon the hiders death. if the hider dies, plus a nk on a person the hider didn't claim to hide behind, you have caught one mafia. finally, if the hider becomes so obvious that the mafia know who to shoot and get a double kill, then it should be obvious to the watcher, and yet again we catch a mafia. IMO this seems like the only way to make the most of the hider role.

So can you please explain how this plan is flawed....? FOS TCS

Addresses cammn's clarification. Elaborates on his plan. FOS' TCS.

bion- also include who you hid behind last night, this bring up cleared townies and makes it easier.

Tells bio to include first night when he claims who he hid behind as part of the plan.

TCS the odds of the hider getting double killed is very high. however if we don't do anything to try and use the hider to our advantage we will never get the innocents that they found. and once they die we can go and figure out who the innocents are.

Says that even though a double kill is likely, it's better than not doing anything, because that way, we can figure out innocents and stuff.

strangerCoug can you please explain to me why a hider would hide behind the same person two nights in a row? i don't really understand this idea, just seems that all you are worried about is self preservation.

ill go next, but i don't know how to do the quote box thing, so if someone can do it for mine and SC's above me that would be great.

I hid behind icemanE last night and will hide behind SC tonight.

SC says he hid behind me both nights, but afc asks him why he would hide behind the same player both nights.

He also says who he hid behind and will if he is the hider, per his hider idea.

strangerCoug can you please explain to me why a hider would hide behind the same person two nights in a row? i don't really understand this idea, just seems that all you are worried about is self preservation.

Because I don't have any better candidates in mind and this is only the first or second game I've played with a hider role. Apologies for not being familiar with the role.

I hid behind icemanE last night and will hide behind SC tonight.

You just accused me of being worried about self-preservation, yet you want to hide behind me. I don't get it.

This is the first game i have played with a hider, so i really don't have any idea about it, which is why i am asking questions. and yeah i just said i would hide behind you as a random since you was right above me, only the actual hider has to worry about making a decent guess at who to hide behind.

Says it's his frist game playing with a hider, despite suggesting the hider plan. I think he mentions the game where the idea game from was another role, but I think that's later.

bionicchop2--->camn
camn---------->Bionic
TCS------------->Crazy
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->icemanE
orangepenguin-->Xtoxm

bionicchop2---->Xtoxm
camn------------>afatchic
TCS------------->Panda Stomper 85
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->StrangerCoug
orangepenguin-->ortolan

FOS StrangerCoug

for choosing the same person both times.
If you ARE the Hider.. you WANT to hit scum. if You "know" penguin is town.. why choose him again?
If you ARE NOT the hider and are TOWN.... it shouldn't matter.
If you are NOT the hider and are SCUM.. then you want to give out as little info as possible in the event of your lynch... thus you sticking with the single choice.

Plus, your rebuttal of afatchic's accusation of self-preservation is uncharacteristically dense of you.
If you ARE scum.. and afatchic IS the hider.. then him hiding behind you is not an example of self-preservation... it is an example him confirming you as scum tomorrow, and us lynching you. I think you DO get it.

camn your last post is QFT, just really long to actually quote.

also please no one left pick the same person.

He didn't quote this, but I made it that way so you know what he is QFT. Tells no one else to pick the same person.

Want to find scum? That's a .. different approach.

Hang on a minute...I don't get how it works.

It could be scum causing hider death...But couldn't it equally be killing of innocent he hid behind?

if the person he says he will hide behind and the hider both die, then its most likely a double kill. if a random person dies, plus the hider, then he hid behind a scum.

Explains what happens with the hider and if he is killed.

Hmm..I think it works, actually. Though it's prob better for hider to stay alive with multiple town cleared.

N1 - Camn
N2 - Ice

yeah i agree actually. i think i messed up earlier saying their job is too find scum. i would actually think it would be better for them to clear about 3 or 4 people, then find a scum. but it all works i guess.

Agrees with Xtoxm that it'd be better for them to clear more people.

camn how do i make the list and i will do it myself, just don't have any idea how to.

now that i think about everyone has put in there targets... we need to get to lynching, just don't really know how to transition. lol.

Alright, obviously, I was wrong about afatchic. I am not even half way through, and there hasn't been anything too incriminating. I just thought his more recent posts were scummy, but his play has been pretty pro-town thus far. I think it's pointless to go any further. This is why I didn't vote prior to attempting to make a case, because I wanted to look at his posts first. Doing this has opened my eyes quite a bit..

..and reading through opened my eyes to another suspect- ortolan. I am not going to make a huge case against him. I just noticed that early on, ort was basially role fishing, and just today, he basically wanted me to claim. When I read it, I thought nothing of it, but, considering the past statements, I am not quite convinced.

Also, I have to say the hider is an interesting ability.

If you choose to hide behind someone then you currently have a 3/11 chance of dying. If you don't then you have a 1/11 chance of dying.

The only way it could possibly be useful is if they announced who they were going to hide behind before doing so, so like a self-sacrificial investigative role. This would be more dangerous to do later in the game however, so perhaps they should either play as a vanilla townie and not use their ability for the whole game or claim now and try to get killed to turn up scum. Also, was someone to do this and report people as innocent we could not be sure they weren't mafia making a fakeclaim.

Anyone else agree with this? The watcher should either play like a vanilla townie for the whole game or claim now, say who they tried to hide behind night one if anyone and who they intend to hide behind night two.

I thought about whether it was possible for the mafia to manipulate this i.e. kill them once they nominate in the thread that they will hide behind a townie, to incriminate the townie. But we would know if this happened because the mafia would not have nightkilled someone else also.

He wants the remaining watcher to claim.

I didn't suggest they should claim

I suggested it was one way they could play their role

And I really don't see how my points could be harmful to town- the hider is still free to play as they see fit. The fact remains, that unless they picked someone on night 0 who wasn't scum to hide behind, who is still alive and is going to be alive for a substantial proportion of the game, it seems as though by using their hide ability in the future they are more likely to die than if they don't.

That's a fair point about breadcrumbing but the fact remains even if the scum notice the breadcrumb they _cannot_ do anything about it. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind an innocent player, the scum can't kill them. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind a mafia player they will be dead. In fact this is more of a reason for the hider to claim- if they choose an innocent player they will definitely survive the night, if they choose a scummy one they will definitely not survive the night. EITHER of the rolecop or the watcher could confirm if they're telling the truth on that same night, and could stay silent and not claim unless the hider was lying.

To reiterate, if the hider claims and says who they will hide behind (and they can be verified by EITHER the watcher or the rolecop, who DON'T have to claim the following day unless they find that the hider is lying), then if they choose an innocent player, they will survive the night and the mafia can't attack them. If they choose a mafia player, they will die, and we will have exchanged a suicidal investigator for a mafia player (this is the _best_ outcome for this role, imo).

Please comment on this plan. I have some more ideas for contingencies but I don't want to put plans into the mafia's head.

Once people called him scummy for it, he claims he didn't suggest that. His plans basically calls on the hider claiming, and then having the watcher or role cop claim the next day. So basically he wants all power -roles to claim at some point.

And when I say "best" outcome for this role obviously it's better if they clear multiple innocents *before* targetting a mafia player (who they can then confirm the next day, as they are guaranteed to be alive- the rolecop/watcher can also be contingencies against a mafia player fakeclaiming), but I'm saying there is no reason to be scared of hitting a mafia player. The _worst_ outcome for this plan is swapping a mafia player for an innocent day 1, the second worst outcome is getting a confirmed innocent day 2 and then swapping a mafia player for an innocent, the third worst outcome is getting two confirmed innocents days 2 and 3 and then swapping a mafia player for an innocent etc.

Er....

The Hider has the ability to target one player each night. If that player is pro-town, the hider is protected from Night-Kills that night.

If the player targeted is killed that same night, the Hider dies too.

If the player targeted is Mafia, the hider usually dies.

The bolded part is what I consider the norm for a hider. The mod will need to clarify. All talks about announcing who the hider hides behind won't get us anywhere. If the mafia knows where the hider hides, they can get 2 kills in one night.

If this is true then my plan is not going to work. Furthermore, if it is true I was not aware that this was the case as I have not played in a game with a hider previously. However I very much like this idea:

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

ortolan's horrible idea spawned the hider plan, which, so far, appears to be a good thing. We won't know the results until much later though, but I think it will work. So that's a good thing.

Fast Forward - We are approaching deadline and we are deadlocked between myself, TCS, and camn. A wagon forms on myself and I am L-2. I offer a case soon, before I vote. I am under heavy scrutiny.

Yep, he's already strongly implied a power role- he should claim and then post anything else he deems relevant.

He wants me to full claim now. Obviously I implied a power role (I didn't confirm it yet), but a full claim wasn't necessary, as bio pointed out later. A full claim would only help the scum.

I want to hear icemanE's argument for why OP isn't active-lurking

I also want to hear who OP thinks is a better lynch target than himself

Finally; ensure OP is allowed to roleclaim before being lynched

Another instance of him wanting me to roleclaim. I figured ort was just being kind and ensuring that I wasn't speedily lynched. But he seems so ..set on role fishing. It seems so deliberate. He's hinted at claiming multiple times during the game. It just stood out for me when re-reading and attempting to put together a case on afatchic. I actually didn't think ortolan was scum at all, until today, when I re-read and saw how scummy he truly was. It suprises me that it was just dropped altogether. ort has been mainly going under the radar the entire game. He barely posted any more than I have, and if you're going by TCS' case, he hasn't really contributed anything this entire game either, besides accidently spawning the hider plan.

I am going to go ahead and

vote: ortolan

. Any questions or anything, or something you want me to elaborate on more, feel free to ask. Sorry if the beginning is so blah. I was just going to get rid of my afatchic part, since it has no relevance anymore to my vote on ort, but that way, I don't filter myself.

[orangepenguin]

Speaking of my hypoclaim, I will NOT be hiding behind ortolan tonight, and instead will be hiding behind...bionicchop2.

[orangepenguin]

mod

- what is the time of the deadline on the 5th. I want to make sure it doesn't occur during my sleepy time or I may have to change my vote tonight. Otherwise I will be around most of the day tomorrow to adjust my vote as needed.

I second the TIME. Since it looks my ort case never took off, I might have to change it, because, I don't think camn is scum, and don't think he should be lynched.

[orangepenguin]

OMG! I totally understand TCS' suspicion on me. Because last night! But I am town. Haschel is scum. I can't believe I didn't realize that.

unvote, vote: Haschel

Hammer!

[orangepenguin]

TCS, I understand completely now. I guess your suspicion on me was justified, but with the reveal of Haschel, you should realize everything now.

[orangepenguin]

That was really interesting. I planned on having to decide between camm and TCS, and was planning on voting for TCS, but reading the last page, I am 100% he is town and Herschal is 100% scum.

[orangepenguin]

Crazy is either a townie or a goon.

[orangepenguin]

Help, I won't be around to stop my lynch, so it looks like it's me today. Way to stick to the plan, guys.

Worst distancing ever.

vote: HC

[orangepenguin]

Since everyone knows, I investigated KMD totally randomly. I was going to choose someone less random, but I investigated KMD because that wasn't my first pic. I got watcher. He dies. I totally missed the TCS comment (as in, I didn't get what he meant). If I did, that would've saved us a lot of trouble.

[orangepenguin]

A no lynch might be a good idea, but I figure I would be night killed. Since the role role I can successfully investigate now is the hider, I am not that important anymore, besides confirming who isn't the hider and being another town body out there. If we no lynch, I suggest the hider to NOT hide behind me, cause I think they'd die, wouldn't they? It's kind of WIFOM that they'd kill me, but still. I am the likely candidate. It is possible for the scum to know who the hider is. I don't think the hider should claim though, unless he is going to be lynched.

[orangepenguin]

It really sucks that my role copping powers can do nothing, regarding scum. At this point, all I can do is confirm that afatchic is the hider, which, considering that nobody has counter-claimed, and probably won't, it seems a bit useless.

I don't think we should rule out ortolan as scum. If ort is scum, I am thinking his partners (either bio or xtoxm) are trying to get the idea that ort is town out there, that way, when either of them is eventually lynched, there partner is saved for the win. Now, I think there is a good chance crazy is scum still.

I think afatchic should hide behind whoever she thinks is the scummiest, since, if there is no double kill, it will reveal scum, right? I don't know how that works at all. Hopefully, we lynch scum today though.

The big back and forth between bio and xtoxm just makes them look bad though, IMO, and makes me think one of them is definitely scum. Eh. So confused. I'll have to look at each.

I chose Crazy to rolecop though, because I thought he was scum, going under the radar. I got the town result, indicating he wasn't the hider. So he is either town or scum.

[orangepenguin]

1. Xtoxm
2. Crazy
3. Bionic
4. camn

[orangepenguin]

ETA: Put camn at 5, with ort at 4.

[orangepenguin]

3 Mafia Goons (Haschel)
1 Rolecop (Penguin)
1 Hider (AFC)
2 Watchers (TCS, KMD)
5 Townies (Iceman, SC)

-------------

2 Mafia Goons
3 Townies

Scenario A: bio is scum. partner is camn
Scenario B: bio is scum. partner is Crazy
Scenario C: bio is scum. partner is ort.
Scenario D: bio is scum. partner is xtoxm
Scenario E: camn is scum. partner is crazy.
Scenario F: camn is scum. partner is ort.
Scenario G: camn is scum. partner is xtoxm
Scenario H: Crazy is scum. partner is ort.
Scenario I: Crazy is scum. partner is xtoxm.
Scenario J: ortlolan is scum. partner is xtoxm

There are 10 different scenarios.

[orangepenguin]

You're actually near the bottom of unconfirmed people, so I am not really tunneling on you. I just found it quite suspicious that everyone else was pretty much ruling you out as scum, which I saw as a possible tactic that scum would do - say they're partner isn't scum.

Well, obviously, the scum won't put their partner first, nor will they put them last. Well, they might, but in case they were lynched, the wouldn't make it that obvious..is this being WIFOM?

[orangepenguin]

I think all the confirmed people should wait until all the unconfirmed people place their vote before we hammer.

[orangepenguin]

Good point.

But it could be possible that both of you are town, and that the real scum are going under the radar (i.e. crazy, camn)

[orangepenguin]

Yes he should be. That way, if he is lynched after hiding behind a scum, we know who the scum is.

[orangepenguin]

How am I "under the radar"?

Bad word choice. Simply- you're not the center of attention at the moment, and I assume the opposite of what's likely, and that scum are in the background, enjoying the bio/xtoxm back and forth.

[orangepenguin]

I am going to take my chances, and

vote: Crazy

. Had a bad feeling about him yesterday, and that's why I investigated him.

[orangepenguin]

There's no point voting Crazy if afatchic is going to kamikaze him tonight

Well, if we do lynch Crazy, he'd "kamikaze" Xtoxm.

[orangepenguin]

Ugh. This can't end well, can it?

[orangepenguin]

Until the death scene is written, I am going to think the worst, and that we lynched town, even though I think xtoxm (besides Crazy) was the best choice for lynch.

[orangepenguin]

Since it was the only thing I could do, I role copped afatchic, and they are indeed the hider. So..even though there was no doubt at all, it's 100% confirmed.

[orangepenguin]

I have a bad feeling about bio..

[orangepenguin]

Sounds pretty good. I am going to vote crazy.

vote: Crazy

.

[orangepenguin]

bio I don't think you need to do that- I for example want to lynch camn already

Since OP has already stated he doesn't feel good about me, that puts me in a situation where I will be fighting from behind.

OP said the same about me though.

And I'll probably say something about camn too. I am glad I made the right choice in Role copping Crazy, despite getting no info from it except that he is town/mafia for sure. Looks like he was mafia.

[orangepenguin]

Well, I role copped ortolan last night. He was indeed townie. Bad move for scum, IMO, because ortolan's last post was kind of sketchy.

But afatchic is still alive.

[orangepenguin]

vote: camm

it's not over yet.

[orangepenguin]

Well, good game.

Besides the terrible first day, I think we did a really good job. I feel kind of stupid for outing TCS like that. Not sure if the scum caught onto that before I pointed it out. I shouldn't have claimed yet though. afatchic pretty much won this for us. I did little to nothing, even though I didn't really have to.

I must say that this game was pretty enjoyable after I was called out and made into a big suspect.

[orangepenguin]

Oh, and I think it's cool that I hammered and actually won in an endgame scenario for a change. Usually, the opposite happens, so it's a nice change.

[orangepenguin]

And OP, you realise role-copping me as you said you did in Post 722 didn't prove I wasn't scum. And just out of interest what did you think was scummy in my last post?

Oh, yeah, of course. My powers were pretty much useless with no power roles left, besides afatchic. If I investigated anyone besides afatchic, Jex would send me "townie".

[orangepenguin]

..and so it wouldn't confirm anything other than you weren't a pro-town powerrole. (or sk)

[orangepenguin]

Camn, explain yourself on the Night 0 (or Night 1. whatever you want to call it) NK.

Oh, and no one visited Crazy that night.

I was so upset that you died, because I role copped you, and when I was under lots of pressure, I didn't want to claim, because your role was already revealed. It wasn't until later that had I claimed, we would've lynched Herschal earlier.lol. So basically, you were a good person to die, since the mafia chose to kill you, the role cop investigated you, and the watcher watched you. You indirectly won the game for us.

[orangepenguin]

i like that KMD was somehow notable enough to draw that much attention.

What was it that made you choose him?

He was the most random and UNNOTABLE person that I could find. I was going to role cop Crazy, actually, but I decided to go with somebody random, and KMD had an acronym name, which pushed me over the edge.

[orangepenguin]

Well, I was in a game with ort (and still am), so I knew who he was, and if you read the game (Mini 701), you'll see why I wouldn't target ort, and Panda Stomper had a pretty unique name, I guess, so I guess I never considered him.