Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[DragonEater70]

I really like the changes, this will definitely make it possible to have more Newbie-friendly games while simultaneously giving mods that just like to torture their players greater freedom to torture their players within the Complex creative space .

[DragonEater70]

Oh noooo

I'll try it one day.

[DragonEater70]

Also I probably should've asked this a while ago but what happens when a Juggernaut and a Bodyguard target the same person? Does the bodyguard also die or only the target?

[DragonEater70]

yeah I agree, Multitasking should still be a modifier in Complex Normal games (and inherent multitasking should still be allowed as a rule)

I agree, and I think multitasking should probably be just on by default for non-complex games and toggleable both for all anti-town and individual roles in complex.

[DragonEater70]

Actually bianco's idea is much better than what I suggested earlier, or at least less confusing (though I do think multitasker would have to be a Complex role either way).

So nth on bianco.

I also still think that for Simples (and preferably also Regulars but I get why some of you might disagree), mafia multitasking should always be on, and not something the mod decides about.

[DragonEater70]

Clarification: is it Normal for something like a Mafia Complex Goon or a 2-Shot Serial Killer to exist? I.E for modifiers to modify the basic role of a faction?

[DragonEater70]

I like Undercover.

[DragonEater70]

I just don't get the point of changing godfather to boss, because isn't the point of renaming that it would be more informative/flavorful? And godfather is already more flavorful than boss and as much informative.

[DragonEater70]

Huh didn't even think about that

Is that like an issue to people?

[DragonEater70]

I like that name but Idk if it fits in the Normal naming scheme

[DragonEater70]

Mastermind is a EM role that steals the win for itself the scumteam wins

It was a pretty bad role TBH. It made mafia anonymous but there were ways to find who the mafia was anyway. I think it was unfun both for Mafia (anonymity and potential for killing each other / having win stolen) and for Village (wtf why do we have 4 maf in a 12 player game?)

[DragonEater70]

Seconded

[DragonEater70]

How exactly does action detector work? Is it like detective but for all types of actions?

[DragonEater70]

Regarding the Normal Queue: I love the thing where there is always a game slot reserved for Simples (and technically also regulars but I don't think anyone has even run a regular so far). However, I have an issue with there being only one other slot, which can sometimes get clogged up with super-large games (probably any game with over 19 players would be considered super large) that just never fill up and then you have to wait a long time to run Complex Minis, or Complex Micros, or 17p Larges, etc.

Would it be possible to have super-large games, which usually take months to fill up (see Large Normal 244), take up a special slot that doesn't clog the queue?

[DragonEater70]

That could be a decent idea!

[DragonEater70]

I don't think it would dilute the queue, specifically because these mega-large games take months to fill up. I think that when someone signs up for one of these, they aren't planning to play it right away - so it doesn't stop them from signing up to other games. I do agree that having three 17p Larges simultaneously in signups is not a good idea. Since yeah, that would dilute signups.

I also disagree that there is no difference between (non-Simple) Normals. When somebody signs up to a biancospino game, they should EXPECT a heavy mechanical puzzle with obscure roles that interact in interesting ways. When you sign up for one of Datisi's games, you expect heavy mod WIFOM (or so I've heard). And I'm sure people sign up for or avoid these games based on these expectations. There is a reason why the designer + reviewers of a setup are listed in the queue.

[DragonEater70]

Another point is I don't think mega-large games run frequently enough for the signups to compete with one another. So having either a dedicated slot or a separate thread really shouldn't result in any dilution, IMO.

[DragonEater70]

I think a Complex Mini and a Simple Mini are different enough to justify the competition? IDK. Also if the proposed change were implemented right this minute, the second slot would be 15-17p larges, not minis (based on the signup posts).

menace to society mods

[DragonEater70]

I definitely support keeping a slot exclusive for mini/micro simple/regular games.

21 players sounds like a good limit for Normals. I also won't oppose 19 as a limit though I can see why others might.

[DragonEater70]

I never said people had to use 19 often, I just like the option of being able to run a game like that once in a very long while. Like if we, theoretically, set the maximum to 19, I'd expect most Larges to run on 17, and then sometimes myself or someone would come along with a whack 19p setup.

[DragonEater70]

if our main worry is about larges, which this kinda seems to be about in the end,

maybe a queue specially made for "whichever normal fills up first" could help?

Of course this would help with minis at first since they're smaller, but i feel like a part of the reason as to why minis get filled up easier is just that people often default to it when they don't care about what to play

What exactly do you mean by that? Like allowing multiple larges to simultaneously enter signups but letting players say "in for whichever fills first"?

[DragonEater70]

Idk if it's okay to make a request like that, but I think it'd be cool if the "Combined" modifier could be used in regular games, though probably with a warning to game designers/reviewers not to overcomplicate it. Because I think you can have combined roles that feel pretty uncomplex (at least to me), such as FN/Messenger or Neighborizer/Doctor. But anything like "vigilante/disloyal bodyguard" or "RoleGuard/Doctor/Vigilante" will make the game complex.

[DragonEater70]

My point is that not all Combined roles are outside Normal expectations, IMO.

Like how is 1-Shot Weak FN cool and expected but 1-Shot Combined Cop FN, which has almost the same functional effect, a brand new role that has to be tagged complex? How is a Combined Tracker Rolecop a brand new, totally hard to play around role? Etc.

Like obviously they are powerful roles but not more than masons (for 1-shot FN/Cop) or just a cop (for Tracker/Rolecop)

[DragonEater70]

I don't really want third parties in Normals

It makes them much less normal.

[DragonEater70]

On paper it would be but I am not sure it gets past review.

[DragonEater70]

For example, I wonder how Juggernaut-Immune Doctor would work? Would it be a Doctor immune to Juggernaut kills (and only Juggernaut kills) or would it be a Doctor that can protect from Juggernaut kills (thus making Immune actually work like a modifier in this case)? I assume the former as Immune is a role and not a modifier.

In my understanding a Juggernaut-Immune Doctor, by a strict interpretation of how Immune works, would die if killed by a Juggernaut, but would not die if protected by another doctor and killed by a Juggernaut on the same night. It wouldn't affect their own protection at all. However if a regular Doctor protected a Juggernaut-Immune Townie, they would be able to protect them from the Juggernaut. Wait a minute I'm gonna crosspost this.

[DragonEater70]

Well the thing is that Juggernaut isn't a modifier, it's a passive role (usually modified with the "activated" modifier). So Role-Immune can be immune to passive roles (for example, you could have an Ascetic-Immune Cop if you wanted), but you can't have an Immune that's immune to modifiers such as weak. At least that's my understanding per the wiki page, which I believe was created by the NRG.

[DragonEater70]

While I don't agree, the wiki sais that both Ninja and Juggernaut are active roles in normals.

Source? From what I can see in the wiki it doesn't say that at all.

Edit: Okay I see Ninja being classed as an active role. This is wrong though because Ninja doesn't have a usable ability unless modified.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah you are correct. I don't think an intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune could exist as long as it's classed an active role, though.

[DragonEater70]

I doubt that this is the intention. Probably needs to be fixed by the NRG/Ausuka, or a ruling provided.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah you are correct. I don't think an intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune could exist as long as it's classed an active role, though.

I stand that as it's currently written a Juggernaut would just straight-up fail to kill a Jugg-Immune when using the Jugg kill; but also I agree that it feels wrong, and maybe even a bit toxic

I'm not disputing that it could be interpreted that way by following the what's written to the letter. I'm just saying it feels, intuitively, wrong.