[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #1325 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:12 am

Post by T3 »

Freemason Conspiracy

13 players

3 Masonry A Masons
3 Masonry B Masons
4 Vanilla Townies

3 Mafia Goons

The Masons know whether they are in Masonry A or B at the start of the game and flip as such.

The Mafia may forgo their factional kill and instead make a guess in their PT of 2 or 3 players. If all these players are in the same Masonry, they die. If not, nothing happens.
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Post Post #1326 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:14 am

Post by T3 »

At first glance this seems townsided because the Masons can just claim Mason but not specify which Masonry they’re in… maybe the Mafia can be informed at the start of the game of one Mason in Masonry A and one Mason in Masonry B?
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Post Post #1327 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:04 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

I tried to look at various scenarios of this in my head and I feel like a lot of the time the optimum strategy would be really unfun either to the maf or to the town, or even both.

I think if you want to have two masonries, you need to make more VTs + more maf, or smaller masonries, for it to work like a game of mafia. Because a proper game of mafia has an uninformed majority but here you're making the majority mostly informed.
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Post Post #1328 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:06 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

Like maybe 4 mafia, 3 masons, 3 masons, 7 VTs with the same masonry guess mechanic could be balanced AND fun to play.
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Post Post #1329 (ISO) » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:08 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

Or 3 mafia, 2 masons, 2 masons, 6 VTs, with same mechanic.
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Post Post #1330 (ISO) » Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:48 pm

Post by T3 »

In post 1327, DragonEater70 wrote: I tried to look at various scenarios of this in my head and I feel like a lot of the time the optimum strategy would be really unfun either to the maf or to the town, or even both.

I think if you want to have two masonries, you need to make more VTs + more maf, or smaller masonries, for it to work like a game of mafia. Because a proper game of mafia has an uninformed majority but here you're making the majority mostly informed.
Yeah I suppose so, although the majority is 1. only partially informed and 2. can't reveal their information or they'll be double/triple killed
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Post Post #1331 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:22 am

Post by T3 »

Anti-Masonic Party

13 players

4 Masons
6 Vanilla Townies

3 Mafia Goons

The Mafia may choose to forgo their factional kill and instead make a guess in their PT of 2-4 players. If all these players are Masons, they die. If not, nothing happens.
Last edited by T3 on Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1332 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:23 am

Post by Gypyx »

you really like this mason guessing idea huh
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Post Post #1333 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:23 am

Post by T3 »

In post 1328, DragonEater70 wrote: Like maybe 4 mafia, 3 masons, 3 masons, 7 VTs with the same masonry guess mechanic could be balanced AND fun to play.
Idk if this would fill so I'm gonna try and run the 13p setup above first
Last edited by T3 on Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1334 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:23 am

Post by T3 »

In post 1332, Gypyx wrote: you really like this mason guessing idea huh
I do!
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Post Post #1335 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 4:16 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

In post 1333, T3 wrote:
In post 1328, DragonEater70 wrote: Like maybe 4 mafia, 3 masons, 3 masons, 7 VTs with the same masonry guess mechanic could be balanced AND fun to play.
Idk if this would fill so I'm gonna try and run the 13p setup above first
Sounds like a good idea!
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Post Post #1336 (ISO) » Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:46 pm

Post by Bingle »

All of these are probably scumsided in practice if scum plays them like an arsonist game, fwiw.
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Post Post #1337 (ISO) » Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:44 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

This is inspired by Enchant's game of the same name. The thing is that the previous version wasn't really a game of Mafia, since it didn't have an informed minority (it was uninformed majority vs uninformed minority). This version aims to fix that.

Double Agency Redux

13p

2
Mafia Conspirators

3
Mafia Traitors


2
Town Masons

1
Town PT Cop

5
Vanilla Townies


Traitors ARE informed of the Conspirators, but not of each other. Conspirators are only informed of each other.

At any time before they die, Conspirators and Masons may choose successors. If they are wiped out, and have chosen a successor of their faction, the successor becomes a Conspirator/Mason. If they have chosen a successor of opposite faction, opposite faction wins. Opposite faction also wins if they haven't chosen a successor at time of death.

On odd nights, the Mafia Conspirators have a kill, and on even nights, the town Masons have a kill (I'm not sure of this is an improvement over the system Enchant used for determining who gets to kill, maybe that system should be used instead).

Town is not endgamed if mafia is in majority, and only loses if it's completely eradicated. If game reaches 3p, the faction eliminated on that day loses and the other wins.
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Post Post #1338 (ISO) » Fri Mar 01, 2024 11:53 pm

Post by Enchant »

Huh i like that.

I runned that game as experimental (it went in meme category very quickly), and i tested not-thread communication.

Obviously it's impossible if traitors informed about their allies.


Mafia had PT Cop to annoy Masons and find allies, but yeah, it's not necessarily to have them.
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Post Post #1339 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2024 12:01 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

In post 1338, Enchant wrote: Obviously it's impossible if traitors informed about their allies.
You mean about other traitors?

Edit: nvm I just understood what you meant. Yeah it'd be impossible.
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Post Post #1340 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2024 12:15 am

Post by Enchant »

In post 1339, DragonEater70 wrote:
In post 1338, Enchant wrote: Obviously it's impossible if traitors informed about their allies.
You mean about other traitors?

Edit: nvm I just understood what you meant. Yeah it'd be impossible.
I know it's silly but how you did dig out this game lol.
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Post Post #1341 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:18 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

I'm actually not sure

There was a game at some point with a higher amount of scum than usual(I think), not sure which game it was (it was probably PicoBlitz or DE Runs a Marathon Setup in the Open Queue, but maybe it was something else? I'm really not sure because I can't find it at all), and one of the players said "there was a game that Enchant ran in the past where there was a lot of scum and they just ganged up on one player" and then I looked and found the game. But I can't find that post for the life of me.
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Post Post #1342 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:40 pm

Post by Bingle »

In post 1337, DragonEater70 wrote: This is inspired by Enchant's game of the same name. The thing is that the previous version wasn't really a game of Mafia, since it didn't have an informed minority (it was uninformed majority vs uninformed minority). This version aims to fix that.

Double Agency Redux

13p

2
Mafia Conspirators

3
Mafia Traitors


2
Town Masons

1
Town PT Cop

5
Vanilla Townies


Traitors ARE informed of the Conspirators, but not of each other. Conspirators are only informed of each other.

At any time before they die, Conspirators and Masons may choose successors. If they are wiped out, and have chosen a successor of their faction, the successor becomes a Conspirator/Mason. If they have chosen a successor of opposite faction, opposite faction wins. Opposite faction also wins if they haven't chosen a successor at time of death.

On odd nights, the Mafia Conspirators have a kill, and on even nights, the town Masons have a kill (I'm not sure of this is an improvement over the system Enchant used for determining who gets to kill, maybe that system should be used instead).

Town is not endgamed if mafia is in majority, and only loses if it's completely eradicated. If game reaches 3p, the faction eliminated on that day loses and the other wins.
This is informed minority in exactly the same way as the previous game was, though? Just has less symmetry with the lack of mafia PT cop.

Also, very townsided.
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Post Post #1343 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:52 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

No, last game the traitors were uninformed
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Post Post #1344 (ISO) » Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:52 am

Post by Ircher »

Won't You Be My Neighbor? with 5 town, 2 scum, and the following changes:

- One town player is a night 1 2x neighborizer; they can select two people to add to the same (new) neighborhood on night 1.
- Players treestump on death meaning they can continue to post in the various PTs. (Neighborizer ability cannot be used while treestumped/dead, but being killed on the same night does not prevent the neighborhood from being created.)

Would this be too scumsided? EV Project puts it at around 26% town win rate (see Named Townie 5-2), but I expect that all the neighborhoods would pull the win rate up a few percentage points.
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Post Post #1345 (ISO) » Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:06 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

Thinking about a "Cultafia Lite" setup, with 2 Cult members out of 13 players who can recruit one player on night 1, and have a normal nightkill on all other nights. Town will have their PRs assigned randomly AFTER night 1 (the recruit never has a PR). Could such a setup be balanced and fun? What TPRs would work well here?
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Post Post #1346 (ISO) » Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:05 am

Post by usesPython »

In post 1345, DragonEater70 wrote: Thinking about a "Cultafia Lite" setup, with 2 Cult members out of 13 players who can recruit one player on night 1, and have a normal nightkill on all other nights. Town will have their PRs assigned randomly AFTER night 1 (the recruit never has a PR). Could such a setup be balanced and fun? What TPRs would work well here?
Balance should mostly play out the same as a non cult game except that you'll need to consider a few more things:
  • Town don't get any n1 actions (Because everyone is vanilla n1)
  • Scum can't snipe any PRs n1 (Because everyone is vanilla n1)
  • Game should start on evens instead of odds if there's no roles that'd change the number of kills per night like Doctor/Vigilante/etc. to avoid the game naturally ending up on MELO instead of ELO and the subsequent no-lim that comes along with it
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Post Post #1347 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:07 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

Good point on the evens/odds.

I'm really not sure what the PRs would be. If I decided to actually make it a closed setup (mini theme), would you be interested in helping design it?
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Post Post #1348 (ISO) » Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:15 am

Post by Jingle »

There's a lot of interesting design space there, and you don't necessarily have to make it an evens setup. Alternatively, you could just make the recruit a factional D1 action if you wanted. Anything from vengeful to 1x BP BG can be used as a functional killstop. If you want generic advice on closed roles or a reviewer I'm usually down to help.

Balance wise, there's also the old cult standby of looking for people whose behavior shifted significantly and far less of the cult drawbacks (masons not being conftown, incentivizing playing things close to your chest on late days as town, recruits being just shy of sman by default), so dayplay is likely going to be slightly stronger for town.

Unique roles wise, you could do something like an Role-Change-Cop who detects if someone got a new role PM N1 (recruited or became PR). You don't run into any of the traditional cult related role problems (masons not being conftown, for example) so you could run just about any slightly scumsided closed with this tweak.
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