Open 909 | A Newbie Game | Game Over

[ketchup777]

Lmfao this is honestly amazing, I love a clean sweep of a game. This is fake

sorry

[ketchup777]

I meant why did you block Mango

I was on similar wavelength to Kay, I still had some purple doubts

[ketchup777]

I am cc'ing you

.............

[ketchup777]

who did you block n1 and why then

[ketchup777]

Are you backing off from your claim or are you keeping it?

I mean, I'm keeping it. sorry, of course, you dont have to reveal what ypu are. but you cant possibly cc me, becuase, I am jk.

[ketchup777]

Lol I know exactly why you did this as a wolf lmfao. Honestly I'm kind of impressed

im not wolf. sorry if i blew this for us

[ketchup777]

i thought you were wolf but no that doesnt really make sense, you must be gambitting town that i would back down as scum

[ketchup777]

idk what to say anymore

[ketchup777]

like, if i am scum and purple friendly neighbour tracks me, why do i claim to jaileep them, why not just explain whyi was acting weird to purple? i dont get it

[ketchup777]

i'm sorry, in my notes i had that if i had been tracked n1, my gambit would make sense to the tarcker that i am town doing this. i thought the tracker would understand, and i'm sorry for the massively bad way this turned out. i didnt think that they would think that i was scum doing this. i thought all the other times i would draw the NK here. i worked out that we only had a JK a small amount of the time, majority of the time I die overnight and we nearly always autowin d3. my begs to not be quickhammered were also trying to get people not to rush into a CC.

i messed up
i tried to be helpful, i promise you this was well thought out, and not a last minute selfish decision to save myself. i wanted myself to be the NK tonight. I hope you can win this

[ketchup777]

sorry town, i look like an idiot now. i have nearly 500 messages in my notes PT, a hundred to working out if this claim is worth it. sorry

[ketchup777]

i forgive you for not taking longer on why i did this as town jackson, but please dont rush into a CC immediately again. i hope you can forgive me. i appreciate im not in much of a position to give advice

[ketchup777]

im sorry

[ketchup777]

i didnt expect tracker to counterclaim me. i didnt see that coming. (because jk+tracker is a setup). my calculations were that, even when we had a JK, they have a chance to block the kill tonight

[ketchup777]

my play was over 70% chance of winning by day 3. i am sorry

[ketchup777]

i forgive you for not taking longer on why i did this as town jackson, but please dont rush into a CC immediately again. i hope you can forgive me. i appreciate im not in much of a position to give advice

Nah nah nah, there was no way I would ever not counterclaim you here. I gave you an option to back out of it, why didn't you?

i decided to go all in that you were scum gambitting me to draw it back, i didnt think i would avoid being hammered by drawing it back, and you had already CCed so it was too late

[ketchup777]

If ketchup is scum I have absolutely no clue why he would claim PR here. Like sure, he's dragging someone else out to CC, but he'd still be the only scum left and essentially ending the game on the spot. Whereas if he claims VT or asks for a hammer delay he could end up in the same position as me with no hammer vote

Pedit: If you're town you have also misplayed horribly ketchup, yes

yep, i thought i would not be rush counterclaimed by this logic. but here we are. good luck, please pool flush zach i think but maybe it is hem. maybe pool flush hem

[ketchup777]

If you're town, there's no hard feelings here btw. I understand why you would have done it but that's so painful cuz I was doing so well hiding the fact it was me I thought.

yep i wasnt sure who it was. appreciate the no hard feelings, same for you. my bad. i am town

[ketchup777]

you can read my notes PT at the game end to watch my absolute suffering

[ketchup777]

i knew that mango and ydrasse and the scum werent jailkept. so it was only 4/14 we had a jailkeeper (3/7 jk scenarios not possible). i thought tracker doesnt cc me, this is horrific scenario i overlooked. so it was already around 70% of success,minus a bit for me being rolecopped n1.

and I thought it would be the jk ccing me if that happened, so we would have 3 clears (mango, JK, JK's target) going into final 5, which once the smoke cleared, was a win

[ketchup777]

minus a bit if i was the JK target, but still

[ketchup777]

i thought it was worth it, i feel flush and others will scream at me, i promise once again this was well thought-out and not a selfish move to protect myself.

[ketchup777]

well guys i got 3 conftowns out me jackson purple yayyyyyy

):

[ketchup777]

Zach does look bad for jumping on this when he did. If this is green, it's probably him

yeah its green, zach keeps sheeping others and is the lowest poster ecept purple, only so long he can hide behind being new, please go for him

[ketchup777]

i knew that mango and ydrasse and the scum werent jailkept. so it was only 4/14 we had a jailkeeper (3/7 jk scenarios not possible). i thought tracker doesnt cc me, this is horrific scenario i overlooked. so it was already around 70% of success,minus a bit for me being rolecopped n1.

and I thought it would be the jk ccing me if that happened, so we would have 3 clears (mango, JK, JK's target) going into final 5, which once the smoke cleared, was a win

or jk blocks someone tonight

[ketchup777]

HEM/Flush are likely town. Kay is town. You're dead. I'm dead. Purple is conftown.

It's just zach here

you have rights to laugh at me in the dead PT.

[ketchup777]

as town?

[ketchup777]

as town?

Mhm

ah ok that makes me feel a bit better

sorry you efforted that massive case for nothing, i hope we still win, you guys deserve it

[ketchup777]

at least I was right about you realising I had an inno on Jackson purple.
didnt put together you were tracker

[ketchup777]

an inno on purple jackson*

[ketchup777]

Do not fake claim a power role as town!

While it may help you avoid getting eliminated, you might cause a real PR to out themselves by counterclaiming - then the mafia will know who the PR is, and you will probably get eliminated for lying to town. Feel free to fake a claim as scum, though, if you think it would help.

whoops

[ketchup777]

also yeah if i was JKed it would be ok too

[ketchup777]

Mathematically this was the best play. Its funny how its turned out once I get over the sadness

[ketchup777]

as town?

Mhm

ah ok that makes me feel a bit better

sorry you efforted that massive case for nothing, i hope we still win, you guys deserve it

It was also used to be more clear about my HEM town-read and also sorta clear flush from my suspicions so it's not completely useless

ok cool

[ketchup777]

Well I preferred your claim but ketchup couldn’t commit. I’m not scum I’m just trying to solve this damn game and since I’ve been forced into a pool of you, Zach and ketchup, it’s not much to go on. And nothing is happening. And I have a feeling we’re just going to mislim and get no info out of it. Jack is more sure it’s you so I’d rather vote you since I don’t have as strong of a read. And I still sus purple.

I would hammer if Flush is at E-1, unless Flush promises to claim at some point. I just think whatever Flush is he won’t claim until like the very end of the day.

If Flush VT, he doesn’t want to claim because then we hammer
If Flush scum, if he claims VT he dead, if he fakeclaims PR there is no way he can win, at best he stalls a day.
If flush PR, he is trying desperately to pivot onto someone else before claiming, which like, fair enough.

Purple, this is to you: will you vote Flush with me? No way I want you to be limmed today, yet that is a danger. or if you won’t vote flush, who will you vote; you can’t not vote forever, please, help us.

Zach, I am willing to work with you if you will compromise on Flush.

hem, I am glad we are together now, but I am still in an uncomfortable position today. Everyone has done towny things, and it’s tough seeing it go between Zach/Flush/Purple, 3 of my top town reads. Not much point to this message, just letting you know my position I guess.

KJ, I will come back to Flush if need be. I promise. As Flush won’t claim until we give him some kind of time limit, I would rather you or I or Jackson were the person with hammer authority, and Mango put Flush to E-1. then I can give Flush some kind of time limit, like 50 hours to defend himself, then I will decide if I force him to claim, and if he doesn’t claim 24 hours after that, I will hammer him.

Jackson, I know that we are on the same page. While we have each had our pfn different ways of thinking of things, hopefully we can win this for town, if you are town.

Flush, i get that you don’t want to claim yet, but today I will not vote KJQ, nor will I vote Mango. I know you also have me as scummy, but if you want to save yourself here, please think hard about whether zach is town or scum.


Pedit: no jackson noooo

if anyone bored they can spot the two purple friendly neighbour crumbs in this post

[ketchup777]

i didnt know how to make it more clear to say 'think before you counterclaim me' without exposing my gambit.

[ketchup777]

hopefully jackson was rolecopped n1 and not much was lost

[ketchup777]

that would be even funnier

[ketchup777]

Spoiler:

ketchup town

I agree

Flush wagon looking hella awful

yup I agree, would be v surprised if not at least one scum in Ydrasse/Dragon/Skitter

Agree strongly

Zach, Purple - thoughts on the last few pages?

I know you both had reasons for inactivity so this is just more of gentle push for any reads you guys might have gleaned.

Still not sure how I feel about you. I agree with skitter saying that Dragon trying to shift out of RVS is something I think feels like a townie move but I also see the argument for the fact that we weren't in RVS for a long period of real time.

Flush wagon looking hella awful

yup I agree, would be v surprised if not at least one scum in Ydrasse/Dragon/Skitter

Agree strongly

You went from agreeing with skitter and DE being town to strongly agreeing there is scum amongst the 3 on the flush wagon. I like the trajectory of your read but I’d love a bit more explanation on how you got there.

Oh, I was agreeing with skitter's assessment of Dragon as town but I don't think skitter is town. I think Dragon was acting in a manner that felt pro-town at the beginning but I didn't really like the spinning out that StraightFlush so succinctly summarized in 909. I still lean town on Dragon's slot despite that. halfasleep was vaguely scummy to me and the way skitter questioned why someone would even find Dragon suspicious in 755 felt weird because even I as a Dragon supporter this entire time was put off by how they were acting.

Ydrasse I'm uncertain about.

StraightFlush feels quite town to me

yes i have kjq. i have a bind on both you and ketchup. one of you has to be town.

I agree with you, I’m a little back and forth with ketchup as there’s posts that would be a stretch to traditionally call scummy, theres some form of
potency to his push on dragon that feels forced
looking back that I wanted to iso him for but never got the chance or effort. For the things that I would consider too weird to be posted from scum I don’t think that’s necessarily true for him.

He absorbs plays like a sponge, he has put into practice one of my subtle plays at one point I don’t believe it’s a stretch he does more hidden under the guise of a huge fluff poster (I know he has a lot of content, but as a playstyle he also posts a lot of fluff)

The bolded is a very good point I hadn't considered.

A purple wagon starting after I give an in-depth analysis on him, yet no actual response to that post. So what prompted the purple vote specifically?

For what it's worth, I agree with your analysis entirely

Kay chill the heck out, you’re unbelievably tunneled rn. This won’t lead to productive discussion, we have to consider the bus idea seriously

Agree. It reads like you're gloating

i want to use the space we have to eliminate purplemango's slot. he was "on-wagon" in spirit, but didn't commit - which is even scummier. the next on-wagon elimination in the similar theme is zach. only then do i want to touch ketchup or straightflush as their involvement in the game yields so much more information, and i expect that it will yield much more if they get to stay in the game with us.

I can get behind this

VOTE: Purplemango

Yeah I disagree that purple was fully off the bus. He was there in spirit and that's still relevant
[/spoiler]

zach does a LOT of agreeing and sheeping. it might be zach. i think go for zach

[ketchup777]

HEM/purple are gonna have a hell of a time reading this back, jesus christ

I'm loving it and I'm caught up

could be slip that she is loving the fact that our town PRs are being outed

[ketchup777]

he*

[ketchup777]

Jack what do I do after you die tonight?

Win the game for me

That’s too much to ask lol

youve got thisss and if you mislim tomorrow youll make it to ElO

[ketchup777]

i think look back at voting patterns and interractions with halfasleep/skitter/camel

[ketchup777]

Time to play some Factorio

time to sleep

[ketchup777]

just trying to help any way I can to repay my debt to the town

[ketchup777]

The original plan was to claim jk if purple got to e-1 but yea idk.

[ketchup777]

goodnight

[ketchup777]

Yeah no we cheated by using evil PRs!!

[ketchup777]

I thought i wouldnt get counterclaimed 2 days before ElOOOOOO

[ketchup777]

Well obviously I don’t have cool powers!!

smooth!

[ketchup777]

Well obviously I don’t have cool powers!!

you were like innocent child it’s fine

[ketchup777]

town: straightflush, KJQ, halfasleep
?: jackson, purplemango
scum: zach, ydrasse, DE, purple mango

now here's a baselessly-chosen towncore that's looking clean af. think you've got the right idea about dragon at any rate.

It was in fact not clean af I hit our PRs in null tier tho lmao

[ketchup777]

nice win though everyone, I’m glad you recovered! I’m surprised Flush thought I was baiting something in a doc/tracker setup, but I’ll take it. Purple was certainly a creative nightkill that could’ve worked and at the very least shook things up. With the nightkills seemingly known in advance it looked like flush would’ve been the next lim if he just went for a simple jackson kill anyway.

Zach you played well, I hope you play another game soon!

the HEM track was nice

I understand more now why you CCed me Jackson and I had been maybe too lenient in my notes at the time that I as scum would 'never' fakeclaim JK here. Your angle was that I was fakeclaiming in a fake gambit, which honestly makes sense to think that. so oops. And HEM you are right I didn’t think properly through if purple was tracked (which came to hurt here very much and could’ve been very bad). I’ll be more careful next time I try something like this!

hem+dragon I misread your slot from both of you. so oops that’s on me

[ketchup777]

1681 Jackson calling me “Actually insane" oh boy, confrontational Jackson is back, he’s so back
It’s giving me similar vibe flashbacks to when Jackson said my POV was 'actually infuriating' (and we were TvT). So maybe he is town and we are TvTing for a third time (:

Gave me a good laugh. Do I want to read all of ur thread now? Ahhhhhh (yes)

it’ll be quicker than you think some of the posts are just me screaming in agony over text whether to go through with the fakeclaim

[ketchup777]

Ketchup your energy is next level

(;

[ketchup777]

If ketchup is town... that's a bruh moment right there

(:

[ketchup777]

Spoiler:

I have two running theories in my mind, it depends on one assumption which is why Ydrasse was killed in particular. It's either my initial assumption which was a low-info kill, and them HEM's which would be an attempted PR-snipe. I personally think it's a strong combination of both.

Low Info Kill

In the world where Ydrasse was a low info kill, it would mean that the scum would be okay with the outcome Snivy's flip would have, considering HEM and myself were the primary pushback against a

scum flip

and the primary pusher (Kay, and to a lesser degree ketchup) had not been shot it means that they feel the game benefits to keep those people alive or that the scum simply cannot kill them (because they

are

them).

Hard pushing against a scum flip looks bad in all worlds, meaning the scum must have felt comfortable not killing those who would otherwise be extremely hard to eliminate when they themselves (HEM/JV) would be at a more severe risk. So from that line of thinking, that removes both HEM and myself from the scum pool. I called this out twice in the moment but Flush's actions also doesn't make sense with this assumption either, as they were town-reading both me and HEM going into today so the only way they're scum is if they thought the remaining town would just happen to take the push over which doesn't make sense if this kill was made for the reason to segment jv/hem further.

Guess who made this exact solve?

Spoiler:

this would leave my pool in jackson/hem, maybe flush.

Attempted PR Snipe

If the kill was made as an attempted PR snipe, which upon thinking further about HEM's thoughts I feel that this almost certainly has to do with it as otherwise I feel one of Kay/Ketchup would have been shot as it wouldn't affect the game too much with the mindset of keeping the game in the state that it's in. I feel the remaining scum making this kill in particular forces the remaining scum to have been thinking, at least a little bit substantially. Their focus being on finding PR is a strong hook as I believe one player has been playing, speaking and acting in a way that is almost entirely built upon finding the PRs. Guess who?

Ketchup's PR Hunting Mentality

I believe Ketchup's behaviour surrounding Flush in particular is the strongest thing that made me realise that they're the wolf this game. I believe with the logic that scum did kill to try and snipe the PR, the game-state benefitted them substantially I feel they felt they had the wiggle room to push a bit riskier socially to find who the PRs actually are. Their behaviour is weird surrounding Flush and pushing him to claim, I feel that they've already either deduced or even checked them if it's the rolecop world that Flush was not a PR and thus was not interested in pushing them because it simply

did not benefit

them to do so. They want to spread their wings out and get as much information as they can.

Anybody should be able to attest that they've been incredibly PR focused the entire game, which if that's just because I was the one that's always trying to shut down that conversation or call him out on it but it's been a repeated issue with him. I feel the reluctance on voting out Flush is obvious, Kay even called that out specifically and I believe it's because of this. I feel like his behaviour and his words don't line up properly. He makes it try to seem like he's okay with the wagon, he put Flush/Zach as his pool but he is also acting completely contradictory as it's very clear he actively

does not want flush

Spoiler:

hellooooo?

You backed off so now he won’t claim. Who would you rather vote?

maybe zach or I might come back to flush tomorrow i just wanted to see some stuff from zach and purple today before we blasted flush

i just think there are better places to lim, today at least

Who would you prefer to vote out right now?

Zach or Flush, but will check over Jackson and hem again at some point.

Shortly after this in his ISO, he had this awful progression showcasing his mentality of actively rejecting the idea of pushing flush even though he is very much in his solve and has not claimed (with Kay and I both being pretty headstrong about wanting to resolve that slot through a claim). His behaviour once again insinuates that he only wants to appear like he wants to push him (or wants to have him as a backup elim later when the information gathering phase is over and he wants to solidify an actual wagon)

Spoiler:

ik i messed up I’m back on flush nowwww

who would join me on a zach wagon?

Try it and find out!

VOTE: zach

There's also the behaviour around Flush's wagon earlier in the day where he felt reluctant to push Flush but even at that he clearly didn't have the mindset of finding scum. It was to get the claim and then jump off.

that's literally what these posts insinuate is his mindset here

Spoiler:

Not sure what to think but I won't be hammering. I have to go back and read things but I'm busy for the night sorry

yeah let’s not hammer until flush claims unless they outright refuse

Ketchup, how strong is your purple read?

strong enough to keep flush at E-1

Spoiler: Other PR hunting behaviour

Is it not sketchy of you to ask why I said that, trying to hunt our PRs?

jackson better turn up with a redcheck

yeah lets not massclaim, i thought hypoclaim could be ok but i dont know if its worth the risk

Obfuscating the real reason for killing Ydrasse

Spoiler: Reference Posts

NKA is me assuming Ydrasse was a low-info kill because the scum liked the position they assumed D2 would start with. Which I would assume is exactly what is happening

I’ll comment on it then.

This is an interesting theory. I think it’s possible scum thought that since Ydrasse is an experienced player, her lying low could have suggested a PR (I hate this like of analysis yet other people seem to like it sooo…). Also they feared shooting me/KJQ in case we were protected. trying to work out which scumteam (A, B or C) it comes from I suppose

NKA is me assuming Ydrasse was a low-info kill because the scum liked the position they assumed D2 would start with. Which I would assume is exactly what is happening

I’ll comment on it then.

This is an interesting theory. I think it’s possible scum thought that since Ydrasse is an experienced player, her lying low could have suggested a PR (I hate this like of analysis yet other people seem to like it sooo…). Also they feared shooting me/KJQ in case we were protected. trying to work out which scumteam (A, B or C) it comes from I suppose

If scum were killing just based on experience, why wasn't HEM or myself shot? We were all on a similar enough wavelength, why shoot the person easiest to actually eliminate. Chances are it wasn't because of a PR-read because to shoot Ydrasse, I would assume they would have to be pretty confident and it just was wrong so idk. My mind is going straight to low-info shot because nobody was really focusing them at all to any reasonable degree.

I think neither Purple nor Zach makes that kill. I don't think Kay does either. HEM doesn't make that kill, nor do I (I'd have killed Kay here). The remainder is you/flush

Ydrasse had the combo of r xperience and lying low. You and hem have not lied low (good, stay active! you are doing well and are on the money!).
In my first game, thomith‘s mini normal, I read mafia PT and outworlder pushed for the Delta kill because he was confident Delta was PR, yet he was wrong there. It’s possible a similar thing happened here.

I hadn’t really thought about who I would NK but to do a beacon of honesty I’ll think about it here now, assuming I didn’t know which of the 9 setups it was which is obviously not going to be true but anyway).

I would probably avoid killing kay. If I were a protective, kay is who I would protect. I might go for you, jackson, to shake things up and I don’t think you would be protected.

This is a pretty nonsensical analysis of what has happened and it feels like they're trying to push the conversation AWAY from talking about the reason Ydrasse was shot. Experience/Lying Low is the reason he believes ydrasse was shot when a scum flip happened, meaning an optimal kill for positioning is NECESSARY. He tries backing this up with an example immediately which makes me feel this was calculated. This entire post feels calculated, and also extremely out of touch of the gamestate so I feel this is an attempt to hide the fact that the kill was made for a specific reason (which I had spoken about above). The first quote of this quote tree also links to his pr-hunting mindset I called out earlier.

The fact it feels calculated but this post exists is insane

ah yeah i didn't even think about NKA

Unnatural Fixation on his (future) Scum Game + Regular Inconsistencies

I've argued this when I was pushing him day one, but I feel he is unnaturally and overly fixated on making statements for his future scum games or what a scum mindset would have. I feel this is his attempt at distancing himself from his own scum mindset as "why would scum talk about scum this much" or something along those lines.

Spoiler:

wolves are in {jackson, zachson, flush, hem}. I just need to get one of you out of this poollll

Replace Jack with purple and that’s where I’m at.

replace? why not just add purple in. do you really 100% think it’s not jackson?

I think you and Jackson are both in a place where I wouldn’t vote you until it was 3 people left and I’d need some sort of come-to-jesus moment.

brb organising my night kills to get to that ElO

There's been a few layers of inconsistencies they've had. Most notably when they said I was cleared through interaction from skitter but happened to just randomly ignore that later, even when I asked a question to gauge that in particular (too lazy to find the quotes) but here's another inconsistency

Spoiler: Inconsistency 1

Ydrasse was going to be in my pool for today though so I need to reevaluate

Mine too honestly so the kill is kinda odd. I feel like scum knows you and I are probably cleared and we’d be pushing those off the wagon. Unless they were sure (incorrectly) ydra had a PR, killing her was a bad idea because if scum didn’t vote their partner, the pool is small. She was the only vote on snivy that we could really see as sus.

i think it was probs a mix of PR hunting and fearing they hit a protect

ah yeah i didn't even think about NKA

Inconsistencies, PR hunting and obfuscation? how am I going to get out of this one

[ketchup777]

I thought afterwards another play I could’ve made is quietly self-hammering and hoping scum miss PR again. Self-hammering feels too much like I’m game throwing to make that appealing tho

[ketchup777]

as jackson was rolecopped I’m glad I didn’t try that

[ketchup777]

You caught a tracker soft that was so good even I didn’t know I said it

lmao

[ketchup777]

Spoiler:

I have two running theories in my mind, it depends on one assumption which is why Ydrasse was killed in particular. It's either my initial assumption which was a low-info kill, and them HEM's which would be an attempted PR-snipe. I personally think it's a strong combination of both.

Low Info Kill

In the world where Ydrasse was a low info kill, it would mean that the scum would be okay with the outcome Snivy's flip would have, considering HEM and myself were the primary pushback against a

scum flip

and the primary pusher (Kay, and to a lesser degree ketchup) had not been shot it means that they feel the game benefits to keep those people alive or that the scum simply cannot kill them (because they

are

them).

Hard pushing against a scum flip looks bad in all worlds, meaning the scum must have felt comfortable not killing those who would otherwise be extremely hard to eliminate when they themselves (HEM/JV) would be at a more severe risk. So from that line of thinking, that removes both HEM and myself from the scum pool. I called this out twice in the moment but Flush's actions also doesn't make sense with this assumption either, as they were town-reading both me and HEM going into today so the only way they're scum is if they thought the remaining town would just happen to take the push over which doesn't make sense if this kill was made for the reason to segment jv/hem further.

Guess who made this exact solve?

Spoiler:

this would leave my pool in jackson/hem, maybe flush.

Attempted PR Snipe

If the kill was made as an attempted PR snipe, which upon thinking further about HEM's thoughts I feel that this almost certainly has to do with it as otherwise I feel one of Kay/Ketchup would have been shot as it wouldn't affect the game too much with the mindset of keeping the game in the state that it's in. I feel the remaining scum making this kill in particular forces the remaining scum to have been thinking, at least a little bit substantially. Their focus being on finding PR is a strong hook as I believe one player has been playing, speaking and acting in a way that is almost entirely built upon finding the PRs. Guess who?

Ketchup's PR Hunting Mentality

I believe Ketchup's behaviour surrounding Flush in particular is the strongest thing that made me realise that they're the wolf this game. I believe with the logic that scum did kill to try and snipe the PR, the game-state benefitted them substantially I feel they felt they had the wiggle room to push a bit riskier socially to find who the PRs actually are. Their behaviour is weird surrounding Flush and pushing him to claim, I feel that they've already either deduced or even checked them if it's the rolecop world that Flush was not a PR and thus was not interested in pushing them because it simply

did not benefit

them to do so. They want to spread their wings out and get as much information as they can.

Anybody should be able to attest that they've been incredibly PR focused the entire game, which if that's just because I was the one that's always trying to shut down that conversation or call him out on it but it's been a repeated issue with him. I feel the reluctance on voting out Flush is obvious, Kay even called that out specifically and I believe it's because of this. I feel like his behaviour and his words don't line up properly. He makes it try to seem like he's okay with the wagon, he put Flush/Zach as his pool but he is also acting completely contradictory as it's very clear he actively

does not want flush

Spoiler:

hellooooo?

You backed off so now he won’t claim. Who would you rather vote?

maybe zach or I might come back to flush tomorrow i just wanted to see some stuff from zach and purple today before we blasted flush

i just think there are better places to lim, today at least

Who would you prefer to vote out right now?

Zach or Flush, but will check over Jackson and hem again at some point.

Shortly after this in his ISO, he had this awful progression showcasing his mentality of actively rejecting the idea of pushing flush even though he is very much in his solve and has not claimed (with Kay and I both being pretty headstrong about wanting to resolve that slot through a claim). His behaviour once again insinuates that he only wants to appear like he wants to push him (or wants to have him as a backup elim later when the information gathering phase is over and he wants to solidify an actual wagon)

Spoiler:

ik i messed up I’m back on flush nowwww

who would join me on a zach wagon?

Try it and find out!

VOTE: zach

There's also the behaviour around Flush's wagon earlier in the day where he felt reluctant to push Flush but even at that he clearly didn't have the mindset of finding scum. It was to get the claim and then jump off.

that's literally what these posts insinuate is his mindset here

Spoiler:

Not sure what to think but I won't be hammering. I have to go back and read things but I'm busy for the night sorry

yeah let’s not hammer until flush claims unless they outright refuse

Ketchup, how strong is your purple read?

strong enough to keep flush at E-1

Spoiler: Other PR hunting behaviour

Is it not sketchy of you to ask why I said that, trying to hunt our PRs?

jackson better turn up with a redcheck

yeah lets not massclaim, i thought hypoclaim could be ok but i dont know if its worth the risk

Obfuscating the real reason for killing Ydrasse

Spoiler: Reference Posts

NKA is me assuming Ydrasse was a low-info kill because the scum liked the position they assumed D2 would start with. Which I would assume is exactly what is happening

I’ll comment on it then.

This is an interesting theory. I think it’s possible scum thought that since Ydrasse is an experienced player, her lying low could have suggested a PR (I hate this like of analysis yet other people seem to like it sooo…). Also they feared shooting me/KJQ in case we were protected. trying to work out which scumteam (A, B or C) it comes from I suppose

NKA is me assuming Ydrasse was a low-info kill because the scum liked the position they assumed D2 would start with. Which I would assume is exactly what is happening

I’ll comment on it then.

This is an interesting theory. I think it’s possible scum thought that since Ydrasse is an experienced player, her lying low could have suggested a PR (I hate this like of analysis yet other people seem to like it sooo…). Also they feared shooting me/KJQ in case we were protected. trying to work out which scumteam (A, B or C) it comes from I suppose

If scum were killing just based on experience, why wasn't HEM or myself shot? We were all on a similar enough wavelength, why shoot the person easiest to actually eliminate. Chances are it wasn't because of a PR-read because to shoot Ydrasse, I would assume they would have to be pretty confident and it just was wrong so idk. My mind is going straight to low-info shot because nobody was really focusing them at all to any reasonable degree.

I think neither Purple nor Zach makes that kill. I don't think Kay does either. HEM doesn't make that kill, nor do I (I'd have killed Kay here). The remainder is you/flush

Ydrasse had the combo of r xperience and lying low. You and hem have not lied low (good, stay active! you are doing well and are on the money!).
In my first game, thomith‘s mini normal, I read mafia PT and outworlder pushed for the Delta kill because he was confident Delta was PR, yet he was wrong there. It’s possible a similar thing happened here.

I hadn’t really thought about who I would NK but to do a beacon of honesty I’ll think about it here now, assuming I didn’t know which of the 9 setups it was which is obviously not going to be true but anyway).

I would probably avoid killing kay. If I were a protective, kay is who I would protect. I might go for you, jackson, to shake things up and I don’t think you would be protected.

This is a pretty nonsensical analysis of what has happened and it feels like they're trying to push the conversation AWAY from talking about the reason Ydrasse was shot. Experience/Lying Low is the reason he believes ydrasse was shot when a scum flip happened, meaning an optimal kill for positioning is NECESSARY. He tries backing this up with an example immediately which makes me feel this was calculated. This entire post feels calculated, and also extremely out of touch of the gamestate so I feel this is an attempt to hide the fact that the kill was made for a specific reason (which I had spoken about above). The first quote of this quote tree also links to his pr-hunting mindset I called out earlier.

The fact it feels calculated but this post exists is insane

ah yeah i didn't even think about NKA

Unnatural Fixation on his (future) Scum Game + Regular Inconsistencies

I've argued this when I was pushing him day one, but I feel he is unnaturally and overly fixated on making statements for his future scum games or what a scum mindset would have. I feel this is his attempt at distancing himself from his own scum mindset as "why would scum talk about scum this much" or something along those lines.

Spoiler:

wolves are in {jackson, zachson, flush, hem}. I just need to get one of you out of this poollll

Replace Jack with purple and that’s where I’m at.

replace? why not just add purple in. do you really 100% think it’s not jackson?

I think you and Jackson are both in a place where I wouldn’t vote you until it was 3 people left and I’d need some sort of come-to-jesus moment.

brb organising my night kills to get to that ElO

There's been a few layers of inconsistencies they've had. Most notably when they said I was cleared through interaction from skitter but happened to just randomly ignore that later, even when I asked a question to gauge that in particular (too lazy to find the quotes) but here's another inconsistency

Spoiler: Inconsistency 1

Ydrasse was going to be in my pool for today though so I need to reevaluate

Mine too honestly so the kill is kinda odd. I feel like scum knows you and I are probably cleared and we’d be pushing those off the wagon. Unless they were sure (incorrectly) ydra had a PR, killing her was a bad idea because if scum didn’t vote their partner, the pool is small. She was the only vote on snivy that we could really see as sus.

i think it was probs a mix of PR hunting and fearing they hit a protect

ah yeah i didn't even think about NKA

Inconsistencies, PR hunting and obfuscation? how am I going to get out of this one

It was super fun to write honestly

It was super fun to read as well, sorry I didn’t give it a proper reply, I panicked and thought by the time I replied it would seem like my fakeclaim was stalling to think of the best fakeclaim. I should’ve just talked out of it and not fakeclaimed probs. but hindsighttt

[ketchup777]

i think you panicked immediately from the wall post. this isn't necessarily a death sentence. the counter to this is strong AtE, slurs, derogatory statements, and excessive discussion of real-life issues. works every time.

Especially slurs

ahaha I hope I never get to this. But you’re right I panicked

[ketchup777]

Zach you played well, I hope you play another game soon!

I need to be less SKETCHY!!!!

it was the fact you agreed with so many people I was concerned you were going for the simultaneous megapocketing. but you weren’t

[ketchup777]

Zach you played well, I hope you play another game soon!

I need to be less SKETCHY!!!!

it was the fact you agreed with so many people I was concerned you were going for the simultaneous megapocketing. but you weren’t

Maybe we were just all right!! Ever think of that?

impossible