[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #1350 (ISO) » Mon May 06, 2024 9:36 pm

Post by Gypyx »

Is this just nightless mountanious or was there supposed to be more stuff to the setup?
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Post Post #1351 (ISO) » Mon May 06, 2024 9:39 pm

Post by Dunnstral »

I think a game with all survivors will run into some issues. First, whoever you eliminate can no longer win the game at all, so this type of game especially can lead to some hard feelings.
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Post Post #1352 (ISO) » Mon May 06, 2024 9:54 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

I will note that aside from the survivor issue, the way you phrased wincons, if town is eliminated in f3 the game becomes a stalemate as neither faction can achieve its wincondition.
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Post Post #1353 (ISO) » Mon May 06, 2024 10:16 pm

Post by usesPython »

In post 1350, Gypyx wrote: Is this just nightless mountanious or was there supposed to be more stuff to the setup?
It's nightless mafia except getting hard bussed goes against wincon so that changes ev to make the game more townsided and also makes the game a bit swingier due to encouraging hardcore powerwolfing

We basically just wanted the numbers checked
In post 1352, DragonEater70 wrote: I will note that aside from the survivor issue, the way you phrased wincons, if town is eliminated in f3 the game becomes a stalemate as neither faction can achieve its wincondition.
The perils of copy pasting wincon without proofreading, yeah that should be 50% parity for maf to win
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Post Post #1354 (ISO) » Mon May 06, 2024 11:19 pm

Post by Gypyx »

i mean, getting hard bussed goes against your wincon, but it doesn't go against the busser's wincon, i agree that it could create toxic game patterns
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Post Post #1355 (ISO) » Wed May 08, 2024 1:49 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 1353, usesPython wrote: We basically just wanted the numbers checked
Nightless EV is calculated by (Number of Townies - Number of Mafia)/(Number of Townies + Number of Mafia) so factional EV is about 33% town. Individual scum EV isn't something I'd know how to calculate without doing it iteratively off the top of my head. Town tends to massively outperform EV in practice in Nightless, especially with larger games. Nightless games with 12 people also tend to be a nightmare for replacements. 8:4 nightless has an observed town win rate of 87.5%. Nightless already heavily incentivizes not bussing (every scum lim adds two mislims to the clock).

If you absolutely want to run this setup, I'd suggest running it as a micro at least. 6:3 gives you the same balance point with less investment, 5:3 is probably closer to fair to scum.
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Post Post #1356 (ISO) » Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:46 am

Post by TemporalLich »

possible update to IC Basic?

IC Basic (Treestump variant)
9 players


1 Mafia Role Cop

1 Mafia Goon

1 Town IC

1 Town Mason

5 Vanilla Townies


During signups, you must pick whether you want to be the IC or don't want to be the IC. The Town IC role will be given to a random player who wanted to be the IC, and then the other 8 roles will be randomized among the other players.

The Mason shares a Private Topic with the IC.

The IC becomes a treestump when dead - they may post in the game thread and Mason PT but not vote while dead.
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Post Post #1357 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:54 am

Post by TemporalLich »

another variant of IC Basic I want feedback on

IC Basic (One Day Treestump variant)
9 players


1 Mafia Role Cop

1 Mafia Goon

1 Town IC

1 Town Mason

1 Town 1-shot Messenger

4 Vanilla Townies


During signups, you must pick whether you want to be the IC or don't want to be the IC. The Town IC role will be given to a random player who wanted to be the IC, and then the other 8 roles will be randomized among the other players.

The Mason shares a Private Topic with the IC.

The IC may post in the game thread and Mason PT the Day after they die, and may post in the Mason PT the Night after they are eliminated.


another potential change to IC Basic signups - players must PM the moderator if they want to be the IC and must not post their decision publically in the queue thread.
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Post Post #1358 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:57 am

Post by Gypyx »

isn't the 1-shot messenger quite a lot of conftowning power? Don't see how it's necessary
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Post Post #1359 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:59 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 1358, Gypyx wrote: isn't the 1-shot messenger quite a lot of conftowning power? Don't see how it's necessary
actually yeah this is a fully open setup so it's a FN in disguise

just pretend it's another VT
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Post Post #1360 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:28 pm

Post by Gypyx »

if you want it, you could have it assigned to a random player for funsies (town or scum), it would be a bit of swing but not too much since like, messenger isn't too strong to begin with lol
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Post Post #1361 (ISO) » Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:20 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 1357, TemporalLich wrote: the Night after they are eliminated.
Presumably this should never happen, fwiw. Seems fine though.
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Post Post #1362 (ISO) » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:45 am

Post by Skygazer »

just a thought, mentioned it on discord yesterday:

friends d4
9 players

2 town power roles
5 town vanillas

2 mafia goons


setup generation

roll a four-sided die. the outcome will determine the town power roles, using this table.

# rolled
roles

1
mason
/
mason

2
friendly neighbor
/
friendly neighbor

3
activated innocent child
/
activated innocent child

4
friendly neighbor
/
activated innocent child


friends d7
13 players

3 town power roles
7 town vanillas

3 mafia goons


setup generation

roll a seven-sided die. the outcome will determine the town power roles, using this table.

# rolled
roles

1
mason
/
mason
/
mason

2
mason
/
mason
/
friendly neighbor

3
mason
/
mason
/
activated innocent child

4
friendly neighbor
/
friendly neighbor
/
activated innocent child

5
activated innocent child
/
activated innocent child
/
friendly neighbor

6
friendly neighbor
/
friendly neighbor
/
friendly neighbor

7
activated innocent child
/
activated innocent child
/
activated innocent child


all variations should have roughly the same balance. there's pluses and minuses for each: masons have communication but have to worry about associative tells; friendly neighbors have a little more behind-the-scenes sway in terms of strategically clearing themselves to individuals of their choice, but could out themselves to scum and also have some slight associate worries; activated innocent children have absolutely no uncertainty as they're mod-confirmed, and don't have to worry about associatives, but are in terms of game-sway are reliant on their voice alone until they decide to out.

i feel like the randomization process could be a little more elegant idk. i also feel like if you're in the mood for friends and enemies you could just play friends and enemies so this feels maybe pointless, but that won't stop my obsession with using the setup as a decent base for fun designs :triumph:
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Post Post #1363 (ISO) » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:53 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

I'd probably play this once
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Post Post #1364 (ISO) » Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:12 pm

Post by Jingle »

I think you should replace the goons with Ninjas.
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Post Post #1365 (ISO) » Wed Jun 12, 2024 5:58 am

Post by DArby »

Distrust Fall


Twelve players are locked in a room with no escape. Each is equipped with two halves of a gun and the knowledge that two of them are scum.

The idea is that each player, regardless of alignment, is a 2-shot half day vig in a nightless game. What does this mean? It means that in order to eliminate someone, two different people would need to vote to eliminate that player. (E.g. player x and y would vote for player z. Player z would be eliminated and role would be flipped). This is essentially creating a “complete vig”. Each player can do this twice. Scum cannot shoot together.

Town wins when all threats to the town have been eliminated. Scum wins if they have the majority of players who are alive or there are no possible shots for town to make while there is still scum alive.

The idea is 12 players with 2 scum but it’ll probably change if I can get it tested.
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Post Post #1366 (ISO) » Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:22 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

First of all, the idea sounds really fun. There are several problems though:

1. Numbers wise, this is extremely townsided, as it's basically a 2:10 nightless for EV purposes. I'd change it to 3:9 or even 4:8. Actually 4:8 would make the "mafia can't cooperate with mafia" aspect a lot more interesting for association analysis.

2. The 2-shot limit is a problem (though unlimited shots might also be a problem). How about changing it so that after you make a dayvig offer and it's accepted, you cannot make another offer before someone else's offer is accepted? (though you can still accept their offer)
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Post Post #1367 (ISO) » Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:28 am

Post by DArby »

Thanks for finding the idea fun! Would a 3/13 work? Or a 2/9?

And the idea of the two-shot limit was to make a more group involvement of what shots should be given out to whom. That way it could add an extra layer of association. Not to mention if in later game someone vigs someone with their two shots still intact, that could be seen as a scum indicative move, as it could hurt the towns chance of catching scum. What problem do you see with it? :)

I’m absolutely willing to come up with an alternative if it is unbalanced.
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Post Post #1368 (ISO) » Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:22 am

Post by DragonEater70 »

In post 1367, DArby wrote: And the idea of the two-shot limit was to make a more group involvement of what shots should be given out to whom
Yeah, I get that, but imagine a scenario like this:
Players A, B, C, D and E are town. Players F and G are mafia.

Players A and B shoot players D and E in succession, and both flip town. Now the living players are A, B, C, F and G. But town cannot shoot mafia anymore even though there are more town than mafia. It's a problematic scenario, isn't it?
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Post Post #1369 (ISO) » Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:42 am

Post by Jingle »

I see two solutions to the shot limit question:

Timed reset of shot limits or scum wins when town runs out of shots.

Optimal play is probably to force the second and third scummiest players to shoot the scummiest player and prove they're not both scum and make a bunch of "Can't be partners" pairs. Conftown in a nightless are disproportionately powerful and you have a high potential for conftown if one of those players then flips scum which is massively townsiding. I wouldn't consider running this as is with less than 2m=t ratio. With that said, I think this has a lot of potential as a marathon, F2F or blitz game specifically, potentially with lots of memeing. It's also notably going to be incredibly easy to mod.
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