newbie 2136 - day three

[Dunnstral]

Why are you voting for yourself?

[the worst]

vote count 2.02

TRASHHY

: (2) - Tangion, TRASHHY

Not voting

: (5) - Semtia, Esfera, Stargate18, Aureal, Dunnstral

Deadline: (expired on 2024-10-07 08:45:00)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

[Aureal]

We need to hunker down and determine who is suspicious. Anybody have any leads?

...do you have a gun?

Alternatively, why'd you move your vote at the end of the day?

[Aureal]

So... since everyone loved my truce with Tangion so much let's go for round two.

@Aureal, I know we were both sussing each other yesterday but looking back at your D1 play I realize you had more of a towny POV than I had thought. Especially post 584 where you tell everyone not to shift the vote to Trashhy looks incredibly towny because you are right that scum would want to PR hunt. I don't think that post makes sense from a mafia POV (unless you're scum with Trashhy but let's ignore that for now), so therefore I've changed my mind on you and now think you are town.
If you except this truce we will promise not to go at each other anymore and instead work together to find the scum team.

You certainly have a flair for the dramatic, don't you?

...I think we're gonna get along just fine.

[Esfera]

Trashhy, if you do not unvote yourself in the next 24 hours, I will absolutely kill you today.

Regardless of alignment, self-voting is against your wincon.

[Dunnstral]

We need to hunker down and determine who is suspicious. Anybody have any leads?

...do you have a gun?

Alternatively, why'd you move your vote at the end of the day?

When Bingle was saying that Semtia and Tangion were masons, I got the feeling that he may have been trying to trick mafia into shooting one of them. As an alternative to gauging out reactions, which is what I originally thought of.

[Semtia]

So... since everyone loved my truce with Tangion so much let's go for round two.

@Aureal, I know we were both sussing each other yesterday but looking back at your D1 play I realize you had more of a towny POV than I had thought. Especially post 584 where you tell everyone not to shift the vote to Trashhy looks incredibly towny because you are right that scum would want to PR hunt. I don't think that post makes sense from a mafia POV (unless you're scum with Trashhy but let's ignore that for now), so therefore I've changed my mind on you and now think you are town.
If you except this truce we will promise not to go at each other anymore and instead work together to find the scum team.

You certainly have a flair for the dramatic, don't you?

...I think we're gonna get along just fine.

Hell Yeah!

[Semtia]

We need to hunker down and determine who is suspicious. Anybody have any leads?

...do you have a gun?

Alternatively, why'd you move your vote at the end of the day?

When Bingle was saying that Semtia and Tangion were masons, I got the feeling that he may have been trying to trick mafia into shooting one of them. As an alternative to gauging out reactions, which is what I originally thought of.

Why on earth did you push Aureal all of last day and then vote

with

her on Bingle? If you were really town shouldn't your biggest scumread voting someone be a huge red flag for you? Feels like your reads are just whatever is most expedient for you at the moment.
VOTE: Dunnstral

[Dunnstral]

I didn't say Aureal was my biggest scumread. Me voting for Bingle was not contradictory from my point of view.

[Esfera]

I'm used to having stronger players than me to lead the thread, but I don't see that happening right now. As in, half the game has no threadpull. I don't think this game is going to get anywhere given this threadstate. I don't really have the energy to actually do anything this game (curse of low midgame WiM), but I guess I'll try? Yay?

[Esfera]

SG has a lot of thread temperature reads. Think I said this yesterday.

He folds under pressure and goes with whatever the read the person pressuring him has.

It's not wolfy per se, but it is concerning?

His unprompted reads are a lot townier than his constant sheeping of the thread, though. Trying to decide whether it's a newbie quirk or not.

This is why my record with reading newbies sucks, lol.

[Esfera]

I edited out anything within quotes that looked not very important, just to condense the size of the quotes.

Logging off for the night now, but

FWIW my main townreads at the moment are Esfera and Dunnstral

.

They both seem to be analysing the posts so far very thoroughly, and

providing a lot of scrutiny that I don't think Mafia would want to encourage

, especially this early.

Townread on Dunnstral for reasons that don't quite make sense. Unprompted read.

He is assuming mafia play a certain way. It's towny because he assumes the wolves would just try to blend in a not do anything to start discussion, which is wrong. In w!SG worlds, I think he would understand that he needs to blend in more as a wolf, and therefore needs to solve.

Explaining my snap read here is really difficult to put into words, but it's a certain way in how he explains it that I think is more likely to come from town.

Don't you think it's weird that he doesn't also townread HelioA for the same reason?

Honestly, at that point it had been a while since they last commented, so it threw me a bit. Definitely a solid townread on them too, though, especially since they were trying to stop any accidental bandwagon eliminations like me.

Townreads HelioA when prompted. Directly sheeping the thread, kind of wolfy lol.

...Not sure what this means, but my reasoning was basically that the two of them have been very active, have been analysing a lot of information, and generally advising against any early bandwagons - I'd have thought that Mafia would very much want to encourage some bandwagoning to form, especially with a load of new players like me here.

I'm not sure that this describes my play this game

While I'll admit the bandwagon part was me getting your posts mixed up with HelioA's (I posted that at 2am), you did point out some issues with Esfera's initial read on me:

The post Stargate just made would have been true even if they rolled mafia in this game

I feel that the post in question is a strange reason for a townread, given that it can be true without making them town

I feel like someone who's Mafia would use this to target Esfera's credibility, or save it and bring it back later

.

It reads to me as someone pointing out an issue with a read in a very constructive manner

(especially compared to several other players so far),

which feels very towny to me

.

So yes, even though my original post was partially based on an error while exhausted,

I'm still townreading Dunnstral

.

Keeps the townread, I'd consider this unprompted.

Looking at their new posts I have to admit that Tangion is less suspicious that he was earlier. Still leaning scum on him, but I'm willing to UNVOTE: Tangion for now.

You don't think that pointing out supposed issues with a read can target someone's credibility? I can see several things that Dunnstral may be trying to imply here. And trying to figure out which, and why, is the uhhhhh

fun

of trying to read Dunnstral. :shifty:

This is fair!

My reasoning was that Dunnstral appeared to be using more passive language

, but

in retrospect that can be seen more as passive-aggressive. Not sure about voting ATM, since he has provided some insights still, but I'm definitely leaning more Mafia on him now.

Reads as genuine progression/reasoning wrt bolded part.

Italics is switching his read based off of Aureal's opinion, which is the concerning part. He doesn't have his own reads and is sort of floundering with trying to read slots based off of other people's opinions. I don't get the feeling he's trying to appease anyone, it's more that he is just constantly adjusting his reads to be exactly thread temperature at the time. Which is both wolfy and newbie quirk-y. I used to sheep stronger players in this same way a lot.

It is very much not agenda'd to be changing his reads this way

. He probably pushes anyone who thread is pushing at the time, I'd imagine.

Not voting Duunstral formally to avoid an E-1 but

Switches to scumreading Dunnstral, most likely prompted by threadstate change, but also follows through with his old progression.

...I have no idea if

Dunnstral is town pretending to be scum as reverse psychology

or scum being openly scum to make people read them as the former. I can't read them at all.

This is probably always a genuine post. In the world where w!SG has TMI on v!Dunnstral, this post makes no sense for him to wonder about Dunnstral pretending to be a wolf. w!SG has TMI. He knows Dunnstral is town. He doesn't need to worry about Dunnstral faking being a wolf. He also wouldn't need to worry about w!Dunnstral openwolfing for the former read; he would

know

that Dunnstral is a wolf.

This is a very towny post.

Right, TRASHHY's not shown up yet to provide any reasoning, so as promised.

VOTE: TRASHHY

Not much to really comment on since I left, so I'll just say that I'm can't really read Aureal - I agree with the points made, but

they're firmly in the Dunnstral area - they're veteran enough that any scum tells they have feel too obvious, and I'm personally nowhere near ready to read them on their level.

Admitting to not being able to read Dunnstral here. Again, w!SG has TMI. w!SG knows if Aureal and Dunnstral are town or not. He doesn't need to make a very hedge-y read on the basis of "idk they're too experienced" if he's a wolf here.

Towny.

FWIW I'm townreading both Dunnstral and Aureal right now.

They're both experienced players, so I have to assume that,

if they were scum, they probably wouldn't be acting so cryptically/aggressively?

Or at the very least would be trying to act in a way where newbies didn't find them suspicious.

Same thing as above. w!SG knows their alignments already. v!SG doesn't know, and therefore is struggling to read two advanced players. The logical level of "experience = would be able to always fool newbies" doesn't make sense from a wolf POV really, unless partnered with both of them, because he's making this read in pairs, as opposed to individually. Don't know if I can explain why that makes sense, but w!SG has only one partner. Townreading two players for the same thing is likely going to be TMIing them, for a newbie wolf. I think.

The team is not Dunnstral/SG

because SG has awkward progression on Dunnstral that is exactly thread temperature. w!SG tries harder to keep Dunnstral in his townreads, unless he's just a townsider lol. Which I doubt, for site meta reasons, mostly. Ask me about this later.

My current reads are:

Townread

HelioA
Esfera

Unreadable, assuming Townread

Aureal
Dunnstral

Neutralread

Semtia
Bingle
Tangion

Scumread

TRASHHY

I'm looking at the two in the unreadable tier. This progression makes sense given his other reads.

Again, a lot of newbie wolves struggle with TMI. w!SG is unlikely to put them in "too experience to read" tier.

Trashhy SR is very thread temp iirc, but not too concerning. Trashhy/SG probably never the team - SG would be paired with someone in null tier.

Stargate, if it's not too much to ask, can you walk me through your progression on all your reads? Specifically your Trashhy and Dunnstral reads, if you need somewhere to start.

i.e what caused you to make that read on that person, why did you change your read if applicable, etc.

Also a note, generally if someone is hard to read, just assume they're going to snow you and put them at top of PoE lol.

Certainly!

Tangion was pretty simple - he wasn't giving any reads or analysis, just focusing on bandwagons, which I felt was normal behaviour for a newbie Scum. After hegave explanations for his behaviour, I unvoted. Still not contributing that much, though, but the defenses they gave is keeping them at neutral for now.

The Dunnstral one was pretty simple - I started townreading him, since he was making relevant posts, but after Dunnstral got really evasive at 263 - not making reads and responding very cryptically, I voted for him - partially to get him to actually give some reads, but also because the whole exchange felt really off, as others agreed. After they actually gave said reads, and began interacting more naturally, I accepted that I didn't understand what they were doing, and assumed they were being too obvious for scum.

Aureal is the same as Dunnstral - their behaviour is too unique, they're too experienced, I have no chance of analysing them - other than my firm belief that, if either Dunnstral or Aureal were scum, they wouldn't be making themselves so suspicious

. An experienced player playing scum would surely not want to be so obvious that they got to E-2 on Day 1.

TRASHHY - same reasons everyone thinks TRASHHY is scum. No actual content + lots of lurking.

HelioA and Esfera have been very helpful, contributing a lot, and are new enough I'm willing to believe it's not a mindgame. 10/10, no notes.

Semtia is

almost

a townread for me - and he's contributing a lot. Still, that truce he promised on D1 is still pretty suspicious, and he's not been contributing as much - no reads since Day 1, for example. I could easily be swayed on them, but for now I could easily see a Scum using this level of activity to blend in.

Bingle is the same - almost a townread. They've contributed a lot as well, and have made some very good points - but the aggressive way they've been doing it sometimes, like just calling reads or arguments pointless, feels like Scum trying to shut down some contributions. Could be wrong, but it's enough that I can't full townread them.

This is mostly unprompted, as in, not extremely thead temp.

Idk, it's towny. His progression reads as genuine. I can see his exact thought process.

Aureal has actually made some good points like for example they pretty much said what I was thinking to Bingle on post 422. I also liked what she wrote about Stargate on 446. I would prob townread her in most games but I already have enough townreads and her overly focus on RVS stage posts def rubbed me the wrong way.

I went through Dunnstral's ISO and my only conclusion is that we won't be able to figure out his alignment until later in the game. One thing I will say though is that I thought it was

super weird

how Bingle talks to Dunn as if he's a fellow town in post 374, (as in "we got this game in the bag partner!") but then puts Dunn at the bottom of his read list two posts later.

Idk it's prob just Bingle being Bingle but maybe he already knows Dunn is town.

Honestly,

looking back at both Dunn and Aureal, I'm kind of agreeing here. Or, at least, based on their other responses since I last logged in, I'm starting to get a lot more skeptical of them.

(Not that I ever really had a solid read on them...)

...

I think Dunn and Aureal might be partners, though. Like, they've been arguing a lot, especially recently, but the individual arguments have never been carried on for more than a few posts. Could be wrong, but it feels like a way to give the other a lot more credibility if one of them got eliminated.

Oh, and that's not to mention Dunn's "random vote" at the start being Aureal... before Aureal hadn't even spoken. Again, could be wrong, could be just that they've played before, but if one of them's mafia, it definitely shouldn't clear the other of suspicion.

Wrt underlined part. Lol Semtia.

Bold part is thread temp again, being swayed by someone else's read.

Italics is an amazing read btw. It's not hedge-y (this is hard to explain, even though his wording "Could be wrong", etc, is hedge-y, the read itself it not?), it's giving an exact team and why he feels that way. It's towny because he focuses on both of them, despite not being sure how to read experienced players, and explains why he thinks that way. It's towny, ok. I don't know how else to try to explain this.

If only he pushed that solve, smh.

imo this is unpairing with both Dunnstral and Aureal, which cuts down SG's wolf equity quite a lot just off of this alone.

Also, this is possibly a terrible gamestate read you can ignore, but if I were w/v with SG, I'd pocket him. He's easy to convince to vote a certain way. Ticket to wolf victory (sorry SG). Because no one is actually pocketing him, wolf team has low threadpull, or SG is wolf with probs exactly Aureal. Which I just mentioned is becoming more and more unlikely, therefore also lowering SG wolf equity.

Why do you think a random vote at the start of the game would be more likely to be from a partner?

I have no proof of course, but it's certainly a coincidence that Dunn "randomly" voted for the person he'd spend the most time arguing with later on.

Could just be prior experience playing with you, or maybe the arguments were planned early on together. (Or maybe Dunn wanted to bandwagon of one of the most experienced town players first...)

Towny. Suspecting a connection between RVS vote -> arguing with that player, is probably always coming from town. w!SG already knows their alignments, he doesn't need to think about whether a RVS vote translates to a w/w argument since he knows it was never a w/w argument there. v!SG doesn't know their alignments - he sees a potential connection and assumes they could be paired off of it.

Explanations are hard! But it reads as towny to me.

I think I’m starting to come around on sg town. VOTE: Tangion

...Hate to do this when you've just unvoted me, but may

I why you changed your mind so suddenly to follow the flow of the thread instead of voting me? Because it seems like you suddenly left the bandwagon against me after people started questioning you because of it, like you accused me of doing.

Like, how is what you're doing just now any different to what you described here as scum behaviour? (Emphasis mine)

Your Es and Dunnstral townreads seem pretty surface level and easy to fake, and I don't see much in the way of a trackable progression.

I pushed back on your Dunn townread and you just kinda shift to scumreading him by [p]267[/p] without any thoughts added.

Your ISO is full of posts (like 267) that come across more as "How am I going to look" than actually trying to work out motivations. You lack conviction and follow through on just about every front. Some of this is, undoubtedly, lack of confidence as a newbie, but I just don't get a sense that you're really trying to solve from your posting.

Something something there's a tell for this.

Towny accusation of "hey but you just SR'd me for this, and now you're doing it"?

Okay, since I'm awake for a bit and HelioA's not here, I'll give some quick thoughts. Since HelioA's town and can be trusted + Bingle was town,

I'm taking their read
that "raises suspicion on one or two of Aureal, Dunnstral, and Tangion", as well as their scumread on Aureal softening as good faith.

Confirmed Town (RIP):

HelioA
Bingle

Townread:

Esfera

Neutralread:

Aureal
Semtia

Scumread:

Dunnstral
Tangion

TRASHHY

Esfera I trust a lot, I'm fully expecting at least one of Dunnstral, Tangion, or TRASHHY to be scum, and Aureal and Semita I could see being either.

Visible progression.

Pretty confident on TRASHHY - joined the bingle train out of nowhere, having lurked for two days, with a lot of lurking and generally not giving any reads/scumhunting - pretty firm on that front.

Dunnstral I still think is being unnecessarily cryptic - I scumread mostly because, while they've been reading, they''ve just generally been acting really suspect. Probably the least scummy of my scumreads, but not much provided and a lot of attacking other reads.

Tangion - same reasons as TRASHHY but with more reads and some actual content to posting. Still scumreading simply because of the high bar in this game, but they've not done anything overtly scummy.

If I had to pick two, probably Dunnstral and TRASHHY.

Again, he's making exact team reads. I don't know if I can fully explain why this is towny since I struggled to understand why it was, but it's effectively that w!SG, when he names a wolf team, has to name someone who is town. He either names a team that's actually w/v, or a team that's v/v. Now, the people who he is accusing know their alignment. If they're town, he will lose any OMGUS battle against them because there are more townies than wolfies, and he can't townread all of them as a wolf.

So his two options become either he names his wolf partner in his solve, or he names 2 townies who are now more likely to suspect him for suspecting them. Does that make sense? I can go get quotes from the way it was explained to me if need be.

What do you mean when you say Trashhy joined the Bingle train? She expressed having slight suspicion of him but didn't move her vote.

Exactly - she "contributed" in a way that seemed towny, by joining the current bandwagon, but didn't give any reads or a vote.

Is 'attacking other reads' suspect to you? I'm not clear at all how Dunnstral is "suspect" but not so much "scummy", what's the difference?

Dunnstral has been requesting a lot of information, and giving a lot of activity, but hasn't been giving any real thoughts of his own. Getting people to talk is benefitial for town, but the fact that he's pushing the massclaim while not giving away anything is pretty weird.

Solid reads. Again, visible progression.

TL;DR

, although I will give you a cookie if you read the whole wallpost:

SG is town.

Feel free to sanity check me, I'll consider taking other opinions. Unfortunately, my thread leader who I'd rely on to check my work died overnight, and my towncore is all of one person (SG) right now.

If you quote this post, please spoiler it with the spoiler= tag.

However, I did not spoiler it because no one reads spoilers! I learned from the best :P

[Esfera]

If Trashhy checks back in, I'd like a) for her to stop self-voting, and b) for her to explain why she felt like self-voting.

[Stargate18]

He folds under pressure and goes with whatever the read the person pressuring him has.

It's not wolfy per se, but it is concerning?

Yeah, I will fully admit that's a bad habit of mine. A lot of the other players seemed way more experienced/analytic, so I was deferring to their expertise.

Now that two of said smarter players are gone, I'm trying to not do that as much - and I appreciate how your long post noticed that.

[Esfera]

It's a habit that took me around 35 games to start to break, so I get that. Just be confident in yourself (easier said than done, I know). You're capable of playing to the same level as experienced players. It's just a matter of trying to project confidence, even if you don't feel confident.

[Esfera]

Anyways that's my contribution for today (aka it's 2 am and I need sleep). Will probably get around to fully isoing everyone over the next few days.

For now,

Stargate18

Dunnstral?

Tangion
Aureal

Semtia

(TRASHHY)

ish.

I have a 50/50 read on Trashhy rn, it pretty much depends on how she explains her self-vote.

If you disagree with my SG townread, I expect to see a case on why he is a wolf.

[Dunnstral]

Your case for Stargate18 being town is convincing to me.

[Tangion]

same, and i like chocolate chip please for my cookie.

with that explanation unpairing SG from most everyone else on my POE list it very much strengthens my TR on SG.

I'm still having trouble reading dunn after doing an iso I want to lean town,
but that leaves me with Trasshy, Aureal scum team and idk how i feel about that, maybe I should iso them together next to look at their interactions like Esfera did with SG.

[Esfera]

I agree Helio i scumread semtia for the moment

Thread temp pop in.

the only reads i have at the moment is a Semtia scumread (but will probably be changed) due to the same reason Helio made and that Helio is town for the same reason other people have said so my reads are kinda useless and since I'm just copying what other people are saying it makes me look sus so uh sorry about that

Self-aware. She knows her reads are thread temp but is saying it anyway. Towny ish for getting her opinion out?

i also slightly scum read Tangion but is also

probably gonna change

and not as much as I scum read Semtia

Italicized part is possibly TMI.

Trashhy, how much mafia experience do you have?

+ can you expand your Tangion SR?

Ive had a lot of experience but I'm still mostly bad at the game my scumread was for

tangion agreeing to the
truce and following the random vote making me think they may be desperate mafia although after reading some more my SR on them has kinda been turned too nothing

Trashhy isn't thinking about partner worlds here, since Tangion/Semtia would have to be w/w and very blatant theatre, which many wolf teams aren't comfortable doing this early. Not making pairing reads is fine, I personally never did pre-flipping pairing reads this early until recently. I don't expect her to have to think about it - but, if you remember, it is part of my SG townread. Pairing reads early means committing to a push on an exact team. The absence of such isn't wolfy, though, it's partially playstyle.

I town read Aureal for going against the Semtia vote
I think mafia would try too push someone whos looking really scummy towards town not voting them obviously to go to E-1 since most town don't go to E-1 so fast d1 but they would try to go with the push and trying to make more people want to vote them idk if that makes sense

This read is fine. Progression is there. Possible TMI on Semtia, since Trashhy isn't actually townreading Semtia:

also taking away scum read on Semtia but not a townread

I think we should get off of Aureal

Aureal/Trashhy can be paired, obvious world.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your meaning here. Are you saying you think that if I were mafia I would not say I disagreed with the others who had suspicion of Semtia because I would want Semtia to get voted out?

Since I town read semtia yeah. You could've tried to push Semtia instead of going on a another person (me) that at the moment wasn't scumreaded by anyone that's why I town-read you

This is some lvl 0 reasoning, because Aureal's "w!me would say I agreed with other who are suspicious of Semtia because I would want to kill Semtia" (paraphrased for clarity) doesn't actually make sense when you think about it. If Aureal is w/w with Semtia, Aureal isn't going to push there. Trashhy is assuming Semtia is town because she's townreading Semtia. Which is kind of a perspective slip

I think

, since w!Trashhy would then have TMI'd Semtia town.

However! Perspective slips aren't real and tend to kill town, and I only bring that part up to say this. I can easily see this being a town POV and just very lvl 0 (sorry) assumption.

honestly i town read dunnstral.
VOTE: Stargate18

Worst pop in of all time, lol.

This puts wagons at:

TRASHHY: (2) - Dunnstral, Tangion
Aureal: (2) - HelioA, Semtia
Stargate18: (2) - Bingle, TRASHHY
Dunnstral: (1) - Esfera
Semtia: (1) - Aureal
Bingle: (1) - Stargate18

w!Trashhy should've self pressed onto Aureal here, unless paired exactly with Aureal.

i think bingle might be a little sus but its only a slight scumread not a huge one for me

Thread temp hedge-y read, but doesn't vote there. Obviously isn't paired with Bingle, dead town. So the lack of self-pres is towny, since wagons would've been w/v at the very least in w!Trashhy worlds.

VC at the time is:

Bingle: (3) - Stargate18, Tangion, Aureal
TRASHHY: (2) - Dunnstral, Esfera
Aureal: (2) - HelioA, Semtia
Stargate18: (1) - TRASHHY
Tangion: (1) - Bingle

VOTE: TRASHHY

I can't say self-voting is always a town thing, but it is generally more likely to come from town than wolf. Wolves generally have more of a responsibility to live, since surviving is more directly to their wincon, and because they have teammate(s) relying on them. Town, on the other hand, outnumbers the wolves and can afford to lose several townies. Town tends to care less about trying to survive.

I recently tunneled a newbie town player who got slightly pressured and, not even halfway into d1, gave up and self-voted. I called this wolfy af (I was wrong lol), everyone else called it towny because self-voting in a giving up sort of way tends to come more from town.

Self-voting is always anti-wincon btw.

Comparing how everyone approached Trashhy to see how many people she'd be unpaired with:

Aureal

Bingle wagon needs to give me 2 reasons why Bingle is wolf.

I haven't been seeing a lot of reasons given why

anyone

is a wolf in this game. E

ven Trasshy is imo only about 40% likely to flip wolf.

Bingle's done some stuff that feels contradictory and possibly manipulative so I think he's also over rand to be wolf and I don't much care for going after struggling newbies or lurkers day one. They might turn it around later.

Trashhy/Aureal can be paired off of a Trashhy post I talked about above, and Trashhy's lack of self-pres onto Aureal, twice.

Dunnstral

honestly i town read dunnstral.

VOTE: Stargate18

Can be paired, that one is a bit blatant, but combining that with these two Dunnstral posts:

VOTE: TRASHHY

Day 1 voted, even though Bingle was already going to flip - probs standard distancing. I imagine it would be the equivalent to vanitying on a partner when it's v/v wagons at EoD.

We need to hunker down and determine who is suspicious. Anybody have any leads?

And then doesn't go back to pushing Trashhy today.

SG18

honestly i town read dunnstral.
VOTE: Stargate18

This is unpairing by itself considering it is a pop in vote, and then she leaves for quite a while. SG wasn't under any pressure, so still

could

be paired, but I believe I had a reason to unpair them off of SG iso, and SG is towny anyway.

Semtia

Btw I really wish we could hear more from Trashhy. My read on Aureal is heavily based on how they're interacting with her so if she's not playing the game I can't really get a read on Aureal either...

You know what fuck it VOTE: Trashhy. I know you're new but give more content or else.

This is probably generally unpairing in most worlds. I think Semtia put Trashhy up 3 here, and Trashhy was already under pressure.

Usually, I would consider this to be possible bussing, but site meta smth smth it's a 9 player game, I would expect any smart wolf team easily keeps their partner alive in this threadstate. Unless you're me, because I personally would hellbus Trashhy if I were in my usual thread position (which Semtia, if town, is sort of in) lol.

Also, w!Trashhy would've TMI'd Semtia town. See above somewhere, I think I included it in this post.

Tangion

same, and i like chocolate chip please for my cookie.

with that explanation unpairing SG from most everyone else on my POE list it very much strengthens my TR on SG.

I'm still having trouble reading dunn after doing an iso I want to lean town,
but that leaves me with Trasshy, Aureal scum team and idk how i feel about that, maybe I should iso them together next to look at their interactions like Esfera did with SG.

Trasshy reminds me a little of another player from my last newb game with Semtia, they were very low post very not helpful but also very town, so since I'm having a hard time reading her I don't know if she is scum but the more I think about it the more I realize having Trasshy in ELO would be less than ideal.

Tangion is pushing Trashhy in a way that doesn't seem very aligned, I'd consider them unpaired here.

Maybe very lightly paired with Trashhy off of early Trashhy post here

i also slightly scum read Tangion but is

also probably gonna change

and not as much as I scum read Semtia

TL;DR

w!Trashhy would have to be paired with Aureal > Dunnstral > and very lightly, Tangion. Probably exactly Aureal/Trashhy, if w!Trashhy.

If Aureal flipped town, I'd probably clear Trashhy off of that. They're either w/w or v/v, I don't think they're w/v here.

w!Trashhy means v!Semtia. w!Trashhy would've TMI'd Semtia town. Probs also would mean v!Tangion, about 85% of the time.

I don't fully have a conclusion to the rest of this. Self-voting is generally town > wolf, but she also might've just TMI'd Semtia, so eh. I have points for both sides. Probably leaning 60% town, 40% wolf here, though? Looking back over my reasoning.

I will never oppose a Trashhy flip today, because she will be a liability in f5/f3, but I would wait out the whole week just to see if her slot ends up picking up activity.

[Esfera]

so just out of curiosity how many of you think trashhy is actually scum and how many of you just want to policy lim a useless player?

Tangion can def still be paired with Trashhy off of this. He'd have to be bussing in a fairly convincing way, though, and I'd like to believe it's not that likely in a 9 player game one miselim off of f5.

[Esfera]

Since I have no idea how to find games on this site, if someone is able to link me Dunnstral's most recent town and wolf games, that would be helpful.

[Tangion]

well that was an insightful read.

so off of that since you have Trasshy at 40% w who are your current top scum reads, do you see anyone as more scummy right now?

[Esfera]

Work in progress. Forgot how much effort efforting is. Maybe Aureal + 1 given how many associatives Aureal has off of a quick glance.

Also, if we are going to mass claim, I think

Aureal -> Dunnstral -> Semtia -> Tangion -> Trashhy

There is a reason why I put Trashhy there. SG should not claim unless cc'ing someone.

[Stargate18]

Work in progress. Forgot how much effort efforting is. Maybe Aureal + 1 given how many associatives Aureal has off of a quick glance.

Also, if we are going to mass claim, I think

Aureal -> Dunnstral -> Semtia -> Tangion -> Trashhy

There is a reason why I put Trashhy there. SG should not claim unless cc'ing someone.

Can't post much tonight but acknowledging that this makes sense - I'll avoid openly claiming today, at least, unless necessary.

[Esfera]

@Tangion hey man in hindsight I feel I was a little too harsh on you in the last newbie game. Once you got going you did make some really good posts in the late game.
As a token of my new outlook I'd like to offer you a day 1 truce. We promise not to vote for each other and instead we can work together to hunt scum

thank you. and i will try to punctuate better this game, so hopefully I will be easier to understand.
i like the idea of a d1 truce lets find scum together, maybe we can swap roles this game.

This is ~fine. I don't find it indicative, because there are four worlds here, and in all of them, this response makes perfect sense.

so is the whole aureal wagon rvs or is there some actual substance to this e-2 wagon?

Shading Aureal wagon, very pairing.

im not great at early game, everyone is still reading pretty solid null to me.
i dont even really have solid leans, my

best town lean is aureal because of how long the rvs wagon has lasted and grown

.

Paired with Aureal.

my best town lean is aureal because of how long the rvs wagon has lasted and grown.

Does this mean you suspect those of us voting for Aureal?

maybe a little

Hedge-y read, not committing to SRing anyone voting Aureal, not fully committing to defending Aureal. Still paired.

im not great at early game, everyone is still reading pretty solid null to me.
i dont even really have solid leans, my best town lean is aureal because of how long the rvs wagon has lasted and grown.

Can you elaborate on that last bit? I'm not sure how a long lasting RVS wagon affects if someone is town or not. We haven't really discussed the wagon on Aureal at all, so no one has had a reason to change their vote either way.

idk its mostly vibes,

i dont see scum being so calm with so much pressure for no reason, and the wagon went up back down and back,

its so far the most popular wagon, and we have barely started like actual real discussion, so probably NAI but its the best i got so far.

This is an ok read. Still pairing.

I'm slightly biased because I make posts as town like this all the time "idk but this is the best I've got".

well um just caught up and uh well,

I dont know what to say to defend myself much other than

Im not good at putting pressure or interrogating

, most of my best reads come from watching patterns in behavior so i spend most of d1 observing, I honestly dont know what else to do d1.

I also doubt myself a lot

, so

i like to stew on most of my reads to sort them out, and make sure that they are what i think they are and not just an immediate reaction

,

like with SG18s vote that seemed to me like an easy bandwagon to jump on for scum with just a little momentum on it, but the points made were mostly valid from someone elses POV, as i have been scum read for very close to the same thing many times before, so the vote could be scummy or it could be null, but is it an accurate read or is it an OMGUS reaction.

you can look at any of my meta or ask anyone who has seen me play i start off slow d1 and am frequently SRed for a lot of communication issues but tend to pick up speed as the game progresses.

This reads as genuine. It's sort of a towny genuine. I can see w!Tangion being able to post this, but it's towny or smth.

(It could be a joke, of course, but he's not posted anything of substance after that except to justify his townread.)

it wasnt a joke, but

i dont really know how to follow up a suspicion like that

, plus it was a very light suspicion that only makes me want to be aware of and watch.

Again, feels genuine with the whole "idk" thing.

Looking at their new posts I have to admit that Tangion is less suspicious that he was earlier. Still leaning scum on him, but I'm willing to UNVOTE: Tangion for now.

This posts comes across as incredibly self conscious and waffle-y, for example, when I think what sg wants to say is simply

"Tangion looks better, I think I should do other shit."

I'm pointing that out to see what changes and what stays the same.

i was actually kinda thinking the same thing, a lot of there posting has looked a little opportunistic to me.

This is sort of thread temp, it's omgus-y but not actually committing to it.

Not towny really, but more like... w!Tangion had the opportunity to push town and didn't, unless exactly paired with SG. But that's not really aligned shade anyway.

good morning, im sad i missed the chance to ask drunk bingle questions.

but they got more town points from me for the thought process and the players they find interesting are also players im watching,

could be confirmation bias but for now im jumping on everything i can, as from my pov there's not a whole lot to go on.

Bingle has been pinging as very town to me for pretty much the reasons you give, and I’ve been very nervous about that, because it feels like any of the SEs could run circles around me just from experience. At the very least I do think the lack of reticence in answering questions about their thought process is a fairly non-scummy trait.

yeah in my last newbie game, thats kinda sorta what happened, so i very much understand the fear.

but like bingle said, there is no list of scum tells that scum always do otherwise the game would be easy.

that being said i feel like if you point out anti town traits and they continue to be anti town then you have something to really look at to see if they are being anti town in a scummy way or some other way.

but if no one is being anti town then you gotta start looking at everyone.

im not sure if i had a point here now that im re reading this but um i typed and i dont want to not post it so.

I like the thought process behind the underlined part. Continuing with genuineness, and there's some transparency to his posting. It's not translating into his reads as much as I'd like, though.

Btw I really wish we could hear more from Trashhy. My read on Aureal is heavily based on how they're interacting with her so if she's not playing the game I can't really get a read on Aureal either...

You know what fuck it VOTE: Trashhy. I know you're new but give more content or else.

i was just thinking about doing my own pressure vote just before I read that you did, if they dont respond to your pressure soon i will add my vote to this bus.

but e-2 and intention to e-1 should be enough to prompt a response i hope.

Bandwagoning, unpaired with Trashhy for this.

What I'm missing here is the progression.

still nothing from trashhy....

VOTE: Trashhy

This is just the follow up to previous post.

I like this list and your reasoning overall, makes me glad we decided not to be at each others throats this game.

i personally am still on the fence with SG for early stuff but more recent posts have made them more null to me, and i was TRing bingle until some of their most recent posts as well so they are also pretty null to me.

I am starting to get my baseline of play styles from the players i haven't played with before, i should be able to earn your TR either later in game today or early in game tomorrow.

This is ~ok, also why I don't think Semtia/Tangion are w/w.

I think I’m starting to come around on sg town. VOTE: Tangion

...Hate to do this when you've just unvoted me, but may I why you changed your mind so suddenly to follow the flow of the thread instead of voting me? Because it seems like you suddenly left the bandwagon against me after people started questioning you because of it, like you accused me of doing.

Like, how is what you're doing just now any different to what you described here as scum behaviour? (Emphasis mine)

Your Es and Dunnstral townreads seem pretty surface level and easy to fake, and I don't see much in the way of a trackable progression.

I pushed back on your Dunn townread and you just kinda shift to scumreading him by [p]267[/p] without any thoughts added.

Your ISO is full of posts (like 267) that come across more as "How am I going to look" than actually trying to work out motivations. You lack conviction and follow through on just about every front. Some of this is, undoubtedly, lack of confidence as a newbie, but I just don't get a sense that you're really trying to solve from your posting.

this is a very good point.

This post is funny when you look at the very next post:

my read list has been shuffling around a lot from reading some of these recent interactions, a lot of good points have been made on all sides,

my stances on bingle and SG have almost completely flipped from what they were.

dunn and aureal are both pretty null to me i still don't quite understand why there is so much polarization around them still.

and trashhy finally coming in to post with hardly anything to add is just frustrating it is very hard to read low content players (why I'm working on posting more myself as I'm starting to understand the frustration) i want to say the lack of content is scummy, but i have learned from recent experience that its very NAI and dependent on the player themselves and i don't know trashhy at all so 'frustration'

UNVOTE: trashhy

VOTE: bingle

Underlined part isn't towny in the way SG was towny for this. It's more like a noncommittal read or smth.

The read on Trashhy is good, unless exactly paired with Trashhy, which I doubt. Towny progression change, I think.

Vote implies v!SG, w!Bingle reads, but just upvoted Bingle and shaded SG in the post before.

so just out of curiosity how many of you think trashhy is actually scum and how many of you just want to policy lim a useless player?

I kind of hate how much the wagon discussion is based on the fact that we can’t read TRASHHY at all. Policy elimination really isn’t ideal, but there’s a gaping hole next to my reads of everyone else because of that. Still, I gave my explanation on Bingle last night, and nothing serious has changed since then.

VOTE: Bingle

Back at E-1.

yeah im in the same boat, id much rather a slightly scummy lim than a null policy lim,
however as the deadline of the day approaches i will vote either one that the majority prefers.

Bingle read completely flipped, which is questionable, and very thread temp, progression. This is my main concern with Tangion.

my reason for voting bingle is largely due to their interactions with SG, along with some other random stuff that just sums up as vibes, has been a little opportunistic at times, and some

slight inconsistencies in pushes that i dont see the line of thought causing the change.

However, he does follow it up here, and it's fine. I can see the progression, but the read isn't great and I still find it wolfy. Specifically underlined part, in the context of when he upvoted Bingle's SG statement and then flipped his Bingle read. Bandwagoning, wolfy.

I'm interested in Semtia's read on Tangion.

And Tangion's Semtia read.

Semtia is a town lean for me after seeing the d1 activity, there was questions asked, reads provided even if they weren't popular, everything i have seen from them looks like legit solving this game from what I have seen of their play style.

This is ~fine. Not really leaning in either direction off of this. Tangion/Semtia w/v or v/v.

Trasshy reminds me a little of another player from my last newb game with Semtia,

they were very low post very not helpful but also very town

, so since I'm having a hard time reading her

I don't know if she is scum but the more I think about it the more I realize having Trasshy in ELO would be less than ideal.

Underlined part is questionable because it implies that he should be townreading Trashhy, but instead follows that sentence up with wanting to policy her.

v!Trashhy would make me lean w!Tangion a bit.

And on Tangion he's pretty null for me. I agreed not to push him yesterday but now that the truce is over I expect him to step up his game. How he's reading the game right now and his reasoning for voting Bingle will determine how I feel about him. I believe he's definitely up to the challenge.

my reason for voting bingle as i said before was mostly the way the interactions looked between bingle and SG, after reading that exchange it made me feel like SG was more town and bingle was death tunneling and SG was just frustrated and the frustration seemed very genuine in a town way.

This is ~ok. Still has wolfy progression on Bingle.

the problem I am currently having with my reads is I have 3 town leans and 3 null and me, none of the null really scream scum so I keep thinking that my town leans might be wrong.

I think this is
Esfera, Semtia, SG town
Dunnstral, Aureal, Trashhy null

He's not actively pushing anyone, though. It's ehhhh, very slightly concerning.

Tl;DR

Meh?

w!Tangion clears Semtia town, they're w/v or v/v here.
Tangion/Aureal are very paired. No real associative with Dunnstral.
v!Trashhy -> would lean towards w!Tangion, given the way he treated both Trashhy slot and Bingle slot.

I would like to see reasoning for all your reads, just like what I asked SG, if possible btw.