Mini 733- Congratulations! You are... Mafia (Game Over)

[caf19]

Hello everyone!

I have found the scum already, it is ZaZieR obv.

vote: ZaZieR

Job done, now I can settle down for a nice long lurk.

[caf19]

Votecount

Zazie - 2609 - [Plum, caf, kmd]
Coheed - 57 - [imaginality, sly]
Plum - 4.5 - [dahill]
Glork - 4.49999999 - [elvis]
Caf - 4.4999999999999999 - [Isacc]
Sly - 4.4999999999999999999 - [Coheed]

Not Voting - -7 - [Zazie, Glork, Darox]

BASTARDRY AFOOT

On an unrelated note, does anyone want to buy some lemonade?

[caf19]

Vood joo loik som vodka?

I'll swap some lemonade for it.

I must first determine if this is Jonestown.

I doubt it.

Also, everyone knows Aquaman is terrible.

[caf19]

I know nothing of any lawn gnomes, aliens, or just about anything else.

I do know, however, that you should buy some lemonade.

[caf19]

Caf, what happens if I decide I want to buy lemonade from you?

I don't know. But you can type

buy:lemonade

to find out!*

*You might not actually find out anything.

How good is this lemonade?

If say, your lemonade had a cage match with apple juice, who would emerge victorious? What if the apple juice was actually hard cider?

I wouldn't know about the hard cider, but I'm pretty sure this lemonade pwns apple juice.

What if the lemonade was spiked, eh?

I haven't spiked it.

[caf19]

SlySly has bought some lemonade and nothing horrible has happened. Therefore, more of you should

buy:lemonade

.

That is all. I'd love to tell you what happens when you buy it, but I don't actually know.

Thridly- Anyone feel like translating all the languages?

I babelfished most of them, it's mostly Kmd and Plum saying how they are useless at Russian/german. Nothing too important.

[caf19]

How do you know nothing horrible has happened, aside from the game not haven been

broken

more broken? And can you tell me why you so desperately want us to buy this lemonade? If you can't tell us what's in it for us, can you tell us at least what's in it for

you

?

True, I don't actually know other than by the fact that nothing obviously horrible has publicly occurred - I was mostly being facetious with that remark.

As for what's in it for me, I'm not at liberty to say. And I still don't know what the lemonade does. There's stuff in my role that suggests the lemonade isn't dangerous, but I can't tell you any of that stuff either. (worst role ever or what?) I know it might seem scummy to keep trying to make you buy lemonade, but unfortunately I'm gonna keep banging on about it until enough of you do.

---

For easier reference later on, here is a list of people's wacky 'traits' as far as I can discern.

caf19- lemonade
dahill- aliens
Darox- aquaman/general 'who would win in a fight' scenarios
elvis- searching for something we haven't mentioned yet
Glork- Russian PR
imaginality- Dragostea Din Tei. Also a PR.
Kmd- lawn gnomes
ZaZier- German

Coheed, Isacc, Plum and SlySly haven't displayed any of their own 'traits' as far as I can tell.

So, we have people from different European countries... Is it possible that Glork and imaginality are from the same country? They have similar accents. It's also worth pointing out that neither of them has explicitly said what country they are from - maybe they aren't allowed to do so. Glork is obv Russian as he talked about vodka and comrades. imaginality might be Moldovan (it's the country the group that did Dragostea din Tei comes from)? Here's hoping this isn't a wild goose chase.

Other stuff:

- Coheed and Isaac both haven't contributed much so far apart from the standard answers to the superhero/lawn gnome questions. Trying to stay under the radar? Got any opinions to contribute, you two?

- Anyone know anything about these kittens?

[caf19]

More lemonade-related crap:

2. Admitting zat zomething is 'in it for him'. And please, be noting, 'for him' not 'for town'!

I was merely echoing the phrasing of Plum (post 134), as that part of my post was primarily an answer to her question. It is for the town as much as it is for me.

3. Does not know vhat lemonade does, but does know vhat is in it for him?

Pretty much, yes.

4. Is izzy to say, is impozzible to dizprove.

Ain't that the truth.

5. Ve all are havingk worst roles. Beingk not able to revealing role is not so bad, iz usual.

Yeah, I guess you're right. That won't stop me from having a lifelong grudge against Mirth though.

6. Admitz is scummy to sell lemonade wiffout know vhat effect is. But still vants to anyhow. "I know it is scummy" does not unscummy eet.

My bad. As far as I am concerned and as far as I know, however, this is a pro-town thing for me to do.

One people has drinked lemonade. Why vant more today? If drinker still alive and healthful tomorrow, maybe others might drink.

I do want more today. There is a point at which I'll be satisfied, though (and it's not that far off).

I agree that we should wait til day 2 to see what happens to the lemonade drinker.

This will not be acceptable for me, unfortunately.

--

@elvis: Just because I don't type something out doesnt mean I'm not trying to figure out who is scum.

Simply saying you are scumhunting does not count as scumhunting. You still seem very reluctant to add anything to the discussion.

Unvote; FoS Coheed

[caf19]

What I find most interesting is that since making this statement, you haven't asked anyone to buy any lemonade. Is there a reason for your diminished enthusiasm about your position as lemonade salesman?

No, apart from the crowd's general lack of enthusiasm to buy lemonade. I still want people to buy it, obv.

Does this mean that the lemonade is only a factor in day 1 and you will be able to clear up all confusion surrounding the lemonade in day 2?

That would be nice, but it is highly unlikely to be the case.

--

No. It was a normal jokevote. I always vote her.

Correct me if I'm translating wrongly, but doesn't post 70...

Lügen! Sie haben mich nie vorher gewählt, KMD! (denke ich…)

Vote KMD

<3 dich

(Ich bin so slecht auf Deutsch )

Gibt es keine Lügen gibt. Ich war gespannt auf Abstimmung, bevor Sie das Spiel einmal begonnen.

(Du bist besser Deutsch als ich.)

...translate as:

Zazie: Lies! You've never voted for me before, KMD! (i think)
Kmd: There are no lies there. I was eager to vote before the game even started.

which would imply that you haven't always voted for Zazier, you just wanted to do so this game? Plz clear up whether this is a translation issue or something else, kthx.

[caf19]

i'm not suspicious of kmd for voting zazie. again to everyone reading,

it's not because he voted for zazier

. however, his explanation of (this is an indirect quote) "btw it's not to bandwagon her" struck me as strange and unnecessary, and i find that scum would be much more likely to say something because of their mindset. please answer this: why would town feel the need to include saying that it wasn't to bandwagon?

I don't really see why town or scum would 'feel the need'. My take on the matter is that it goes down as a minor point against Kmd for being too apprehensive - but this is the sort of point that gets noted down and returned to later when necessary. It's not worth immediate voting and willingness to lynch, so I'm confused as to why you (and Darox) are treating it in this manner. More worrying still is your lack of reasoning to go with the confirm vote, as if it were obvious why he should be voted for. Sorry, but it isn't. Care to elaborate?

[caf19]

dahill's responses seem acceptable. He doesn't seem much like scum to me (but nor does Kmd, still). More input needed from Coheed still - you can't just stay silent until the pressure on you fades away.

I vood still like to vote for Pee Jay.

But why? Or does this just mean there aren't any actual people you want to vote for.

[caf19]

CC is V/LA. Saw this in another thread.

Ah, thanks for the heads up.

In the mean time............. lemonade?

[caf19]

I see the foreign language posts, by all the players doing it, as anti-town. I am now assuming that any post that is not in english is scummy.

Why such an unflexible policy? It's fairly clear that they are part of some post restriction. Those PRs could be town or scum, it's pretty redundant to try and work out which just from the flavour. Of course they are obfuscating the progress of the day, but we signed up for a game where that sort of thing was bound to happen. Seems like you might be going after an easy target there.

[caf19]

Also, brief V/LA: I'll be away until Sunday evening. Don't miss me too much.

V/LA noted

[caf19]

I'm back, but don't have much time right now, so a quick post to summarise my thoughts:

- echoing the call for destructor to explain his English posts.

- Non-lemonade items aren't anything to do with me. Lemonade is. I'll hazard that the VCing of non-lemonade items is the mod baiting us.

- Glork presumably can't vote for anyone real, and isn't allowed simply to tell people about it.

-

Also, wer hat die Limonade? Ich interessiere mich für den Kauf einigen können, wenn Sie mir sagen, warum ich es wollen.

I'm selling, obv. As I've said before, I don't know what it does and I can't say much else, but it will help me if you buy it so it's a case of believing that I'm town.

Well, seeing how there are multiple players doing it, and I don't understand what any of them are saying, it is hard to narrow it down to one.

It is good to see that my foreign language stance has sparked a little conversation. Hopefully, we can sniff out some scum in the process.

Post restriction is one thing, but Imaginality taunting me with it is another. I seriously doubt that there is a clause in his role that says he must immediately taunt anyone who calls the foreign languages scummy.

This is suspicious. Taunting is yet again not a scummy activity on its own, and you're "glad this is helping the town" schtick has an awfully fake ring to it. Seems like you're hurriedly trying to cover your tracks after getting called out for your previous post. That said, it worries me somewhat that a suspicious player would be the one who is most eager to buy my lemonade. Not sure what to conclude from that...

And I think the only way scum would be more willing to buy lemonade is if Caf is scum with them and they talked about his role. I think if Caf is town, the scum would be just as cautious as us, if not more cautious.

I agree, in essence; I don't see why knowing I'm town (if you're scum) would make you want to buy lemonade. Unless, that is, you are scum and know the lemonade gives the scum super powers or something. I think the lemonade is unlikely to do that; moreover, I think the scum are unlikely actually to know what the lemonade does. But this still causes me to pause for thought regarding Sly's scumminess. That said, I still require it to be bought...

More to come.

[caf19]

What I was really hoping for from my stance was for some townie who is not as lazy as me to translate it all. I only got one translation out of it and it did help. Go figure.

Then why not just ask for that, as opposed to calling all the foreign language speakers scummy? There's a big difference between the two. The "you'd be wasting your time voting for me" line you keep repeating doesn't do you any favours either.

Moving on, hasd seems a lot less suspicious than Coheed. I'm curious about the repeated mentioning of having an awesome role, though - Coheed did it too. It might mean nothing, but it's noted anyway. The case on Isacc makes sense, although Isacc never jumped out at me as scummy before I read it - so I'll keep it in mind. Basically, there's only one place I want my vote to be right now. But I'm going to hold off for now, because I don't want anyone lynched until some more lemonade is bought, so it wouldn't really be justifiable to contribute to a wagon and bring someone closer to lynch.

So,

pseudovote: SlySly

. I'd hold off on revealing more role info for now, it's a bit early for a claim as there is still discussion going on in multiple places and we shouldn't be trying to end that yet.

[caf19]

Why is my English posting vote-worthy?
My role pm implies that I

may

die if I don't make some posts in German. Yeah, that's "may" die, not that I will. Maybe Mirth is lying... but I'm not really up for testing that one.

It seems like you emphasised the wrong word here, and 'some' is more important. Zazie gave us the impression that

all

posts had to be German. This is a somewhat difficult discrepancy to reconcile, yet the fact that there has been no modly retribution seems to back you up a bit - do you think it was a case of Zazie interpreting the role PM differently?

What happens if you tell us more?

Then I am in contravention of some rules set out in my role (namely, the rules that say I can't tell you what happens if I sell or don't sell the lemonade), and thus liable to have nasty things happen to me at Mirth's hands.

Moving on, I think it is more reasonable to assume that Sly is lynchable than not. The flavour-logic about a sasquatch not being able to be killed by a hunting party seems to apply as much to lynches as it does to NKs, and he obviously can't be immune to both, so I'd say a lynch will probably kill him.

[caf19]

Votecount

Sly - 11 - [Dahill, Elvis, des]
Des - 11 - [Cow, Isacc, Sly]
Kmd - 10 -[Darox, Plum]
Isacc - 1- [Imaginality]
PJ - 1 - [Glork]

Not Voting - 10 - [Caf, Kmd]

Cups of Lemonade Bought: 1
Orange Juice Bought: 1
Hard Cider Bought: 1
Coat Racks Bought: 1

Wow, for once we get an accurate votecount! (in base 2).

No
If I could, I would, how I hate German.

This is the worrying post, expressing quite clearly that Zazie feels unable to post in English at all. The way I see it, if he's telling the truth then the mod's wording about the German PR must be quite vague, because destructor now has way less than half his posts in German. It's no longer possible for the PM to be specific (e.g. 'at least x amount of your posts must be in German').

[caf19]

@Darox: He claims he will die if he doesn't make any posts in German. This will tell us if he is lying.

So, under your plan either he dies or we lynch him? Seems like a rather violent plan. What makes you want destructor to die so much, when he's not the town's consensus lynch right now?

[caf19]

Caf, if that's as far as you can think, you aren't thinking at all.

Apparently I am not, as I still can't make sense of your plan. As far as I can tell, the furthest destructor can possibly survive is Day 2: if he agrees and doesn't post in German for the rest of the day, he will then either continue not to post in German and probably get modkilled at the end of Day 2, or he will get lynched by us in Day 2. To this effect, the test seems rather like a Salem witch trial. His way to prove his innocence is by dying...

In any case, destructor's recent comments on the more cague nature of his role seem to indicate that the test won't prove much anyway.

Guys, I asked Destructor's agreement. Everyone else's consent was not necessary.

Yes it is, because you require half the town's compliance in order to lynch destructor if he posts in German. Or am I not thinking at all again?

--

Time to revive an ancient point. elvis: ages ago you said you were searching for something but it hadn't been mentioned yet. Has it come up at all yet?

Also, a friendly reminder that you can still

buy:lemonade

if you happen to want some refreshment and/or want to help me out.

[caf19]

In any case, destructor's recent comments on the more

cague

nature of his role seem to indicate that the test won't prove much anyway

EBWOP: vague*

[caf19]

@ Isacc: I can't really see how you ever expected that gambit to be accepted by destructor and/or the town. Still, I don't think you look particularly scummy as a result, so we are, as you say, back to where we were before this started...

...which is, that SlySly is the most suspicious player to me, and I'm selling lemonade. Yup.

[caf19]

Caf, in the event that I survive until then, will I be able to buy more lemonade from you tomorrow?

Yes, in the event that I also survive that long.

Focusing on Sly's so called "slip" seems pedantic and pointless to me, it doesn't look like an actual slip. Not sure why elvis and imaginality focused on it when there are better reasons to suspect Sly. elvis: I asked you a question in post 452, did you miss it?

---

The day is drawing towards its end and there is a significant chance that I will not be around for much longer, so here are some opinions for you all.

I actually am not completely sure right now, because you've been so scummy that it overwhelms the game.

This is anti-town, focusing all your suspicion entirely on one player as you are doing; it allows you to get away with minimal scumhunting and to focus on basically anyone you want tomorrow as you haven't set a precedent today. Don't really have anything against hasd apart from this, although I did find his predecessor scummy, so I'd keep an eye on hasd...

imaginality gets on the SlySly wagon in a somewhat surreptitious manner. In post 315 he votes Isacc, and of Sly he says:

SlySly's anti-foreign-language comment I can see more likely frustration rather than scumtell.

In his next non-singing post (379), he seems to have moved over to suspecting Sly, as he suggests lynching him.

One thought, only zemi-zerious musing - ve could call SlySly's bluff, no? If lynching him = no lynch, is not zo bad. Confirms Sly's claim. Okay, puts us on even nomberrs vhich is bad if means one less lynch, but vhat are chances of zis game proceeding in orderly one kill per night, one lynch per day anyhow?

But by this point he hadn't actually detailed any suspicions of Sly - he doesn't do that until 433, when he votes for Sly. However, he is not that late getting on the wagon - he voted at a point when it was 3-3 in votes between Sly and destructor. My initial thought was that he might be scum deciding to bus his buddy, but the evidence for that isn't actually that strong, so this is more something to keep in mind.

Then there's Darox, who is definitely super-late in getting on the Sly wagon. Before post 463, he only mentions suspicion of Sly once, the one-word post 384. then there's 463, at which point he is still voting for Kmd. In this post, he questions Sly's claim but doesn't refer to any actual scummy actions that caused us to want him to claim in the first place. Then the L-1 vote in 477. It's all rather abrupt. Scum deciding to throw a buddy under the bus? Could be - Sly's alignment will help inform us on this.

Like I've said before, I think Sly is the best lynch for today, but there ain't no way I'm voting until some more lemonade gets bought. Having scrutinised my role further, I'm fairly sure I can reveal the following: 2 more people need to buy lemonade from me before I'm happy.

[caf19]

Wait a second. So I'm scummy because I'm focusing my suspicion on Sly and continuing to push him(which is not scummy at all, it's just that I find him scummiest and will continue to push him until I see a reason not to).
Minimal scumhunting? That's a joke. Just because I'm focusing on sly doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to everything else that's happening. I haven't seen anything that I felt needed pressure or more explaining from anyone else.

Why is being able to focus on anyone tomorrow scummy? Would it be scummy if I, say, thought that kmd was scummy today then changed my mind tomorrow after rereading? How is that any different than what I'm doing?

i think you're missing the point (or perhaps I didn't phrase it well)... I'm not saying pushing someone is anti-town (because it isn't, obv). But in the instance I referred to, you were asked if you had any suspicions on anyone else, and you deflected the question by directing your answer entirely towards Sly. You didn't even just say this:

I haven't seen anything that I felt needed pressure or more explaining from anyone else.

which would have been a bit better; you explicitly referred to SlySly being "so scummy that it overwhelms the game", using aggressive choices of semantics to hammer the point home. In a nutshell, answering "Is anyone apart from Sly scummy?" with "Sly is scummy as hell" is not good.

As for Sly's non-lynch... we are definitely in mod-Wifom-ville here. It appears that Sly's claim of being a sasquatch has been given weight, but whether he is a town sasquatch or a scum sasquatch is unclear. The prospect of having an anti-town player who resists the lynch is somewhat overpowered and unlikely (anyone here seen one in a game before?), but especially in a game such as this one we can't rule it out. Still, time to explore some other avenues.

Darox continues to frustrate me. He rarely posts anything original, and his content is more often the "Who would win" than anything else at all. The only time I think I see him making an actual argument is against SlySly.

What?

Maybe I'm not reading the game enough, but I felt I was at least posting

something

original.

And I think you are all together being distracted by what is superior to what, and either not realizing what I mean, or ignoring the rest of the post in which it arrives.
I mean, it's not like they are even that distracting. Shiny rocks are way more distracting than comparative statements, any day of the week.

The comparisons aren't that distracting (at least, not compared to all the other crap we get in this game), but you avoid the other, more valid point: you haven't brought up any evidence against anyone who isn't Sly in a long time. Got anything to contribute in light of this point, especially now that Sly hasn't died?

[caf19]

ok caf, but now that I have clarified, what do you think?

By clarified, I take it you mean post 511 where you refer to suspicions on a couple of other people (Isacc and kmd). That's fine, and is partly why I don't see you as majorly scummy right now. I'm interested to see where you take those suspicions now that the lynch of Sly didn't work, though: are you going to start pushing those two now?

[caf19]

Caf, please define 'a long time', because otherwise you could apply that to most of the players that suspected Sly.

Well, you haven't spent more than about one line addressing suspicions of any other player since post 249, where you voted for Kmd. Post 321 you have a line on Kmd, and in 438 and 446 you criticise Isacc's plan, but not in a way that suggests actual suspicion. That's all I can find. 300 posts is a long time, no?

[caf19]

Ah, it's nice to be able to read a thread without getting goatse'd.

@Sly/Caf, look closely at your role PMs. Does anything indicate that we can help each other out?

Not sure what you mean. I don't have anything about gnomes, you or Sly. Perhaps if you could clarify what sort of help you're looking for, I might be able to say.

Caf, do you know where you are selling lemonade from? Is it by any chance Florida?

No specific place is mentioned, and place in general doesn't seem important to my role. There are references to generically American things/products/concepts though. It's possible I could be in Florida, I guess.

[caf19]

@Plum and Darox: He wouldn't have accepted IF PEOPLE WEREN'T PUTTING PRESSURE. You keep forgetting that part. If people had agreed, and threatened the lynch, he would have had to accept, which is why I was hoping I could get a reaction involving acceptance.

If the acceptance of the town in general was so vital to your plan, why at the time did you say this:

Guys, I asked Destructor's agreement. Everyone else's consent was not necessary. I hope you will all trust me in that I think Destructer will agree to my demands, for his own good.

Clearly everyone's consent was in fact necessary. Don't understand why you'd mislead the town like that.

[caf19]

caf, what will happen if you don't sell 3 cups of lemonade? You implied that you may die. What made you think that?

I'm dying to tell you the answer to this question, but unfortunately I'm not at liberty to do so.

Kmd, although it isn't impossible, I don't think it's likely I have any gnomes. Don't suppose anything happened when you tried to buy one off me?

Meanwhile, Darox is continuing to be evasive and not contribute to cases on anyone. Darox, now that I answered the question you asked in 557, have you got anything to say regarding my suspicions of you?

[caf19]

So, we get one lynch scene at 7 votes, and one at 9. Could it be possible we get another one at 11, or was that last one just the mod's way of telling us to give up? Of course, we could test that theory, but I don't think it would be right for me to contribute to a lynch without another cup of lemonade being bought first. Apart from that, I'd have no problem hopping on the Sly-wagon, although I don't know if we'd be able to convince Sly to vote himself. Meh.

How unlikely? And why? Remember that every single player told me they had no gnome. So either they don't know they have it, they lied, or there are no gnomes (in order of likeliness).

My role doesn't seem like the kind that would possess a gnome. I guess I could be wrong, though - am I to take it that you have a specific reason to believe I have a gnome?

[caf19]

Does your role give you an age or profession?

Yes, I have an age. I have no profession other than selling lemonade.

Regarding Glork: yes, his inability to vote makes him appear largely useless. But if we go through the game lynching useless townies, we still lose. It's still vital that we determine whether he is scum or town; to that effect, calling for his immediate claim and possible lynch isn't the best way to proceed, IMO. This game will probably last several Days; we can comfortably wait past Day 1 before considering his potential liability in Lylo. Glork also implies he has other, non-voting means of getting scum killed; waiting until a subsequent day might give us more info as to what the nature of those means are, if they exist at all.

[caf19]

Does your role give you an age or profession?

Yes, I have an age. I have no profession other than selling lemonade.

Looks like we're getting somewhere.

What IS the age?

Unfortunately, I must maintain a deathly silence on this matter. But, well, I have no job other than to sell lemonade, so um, yeah, maybe you could have a guess at it.

[caf19]

Is that all you can say? Not even an estimate?

I have an idea, but I want to be as sure as possible.

Are you looking for a specific number? An 'estimate' (ie. a description of how old I am in words, without using a specific number) is what I have in my role, and I'm not allowed to tell you that. From what you're saying, I might well have a specific age that I haven't been told, but this is all rather confusing.

caf... how many people have to buy lemonade from you? If they don't, will the lynch fail? I think I remember you saying something about "the day can't end yet."

Three people (ie. one more person) will suffice. I don't remember ever saying the lynch won't go ahead - the consequences are far more personal. Which is why I have to get y'all to believe I'm town, as you'd presumably want to help a townie out.

[caf19]

Darox would be a preferred lynch for me right now, but I'd like to see that promised post of his first before making any final decisions. Also, I don't really want to vote without reaching my quota of lemonade sales. However, with deadline coming up we do need to get a lynch sorted, and I am town, so I may as well actually do something helpful to the town even if it doesn't benefit me specifically. So, I will put a vote on before the deadline hits if needed.

[caf19]

Darox, I'm confused about your foregrounding of my points against hasd. Even if they were as weak as you're saying, they were only a minor part of my scumhunting, made as part of a general post of my thoughts on people. I didn't try and get hasd lynched - far from it - and I've moved on entirely from that now as I've found more interesting things to analyse. So why such a huge problem with it? As far as I can tell, that section of your post just adds to the big ol' buddy-up to hasd that permeates your post. Or maybe that buddying is just a part of your PR/schtick, it's hard to distinguish. Still, good to see you contributing again, I await the second part of your analysis eagerly.

--

It's starting to be. Not surprising at all that scum wants this current wagon on Darox to succeed and fast. Well, let me slow it down again and put my vote back where it belongs.

This extract intimates that you think Darox is town. But a few posts ago, you voted for him and said that even though he wasn't your first choice, you would be fine with his lynch. This makes very little sense - please explain your position on Darox.

[caf19]

Caf, who has bought lemonade from you so far? I forgot.

Sly and Des have bought it.

I would also suggest that no one buy the lemonade. It sounds like a way to join a cult to me. If it were not for my role, there is no way I would have bought some.

You really think that? I need at least three people to buy lemonade each day. A cult recruiting three people a day in a 12-person game is somewhat unlikely, no?

I don't see why we need to plan whether or not to policy lynch Glork on a later day right now - especially in a game such as this one, where we can't meaningfully speculate on how many town or scum will be left later on. setting up lynches for later days is generally a bad idea anyway. Right now, as his missing vote is hardly crucial D1, it seems natural simply to lynch him if he's scum, and not if he's town. (Ain't that groundbreaking logic? )

[caf19]

[caf19]

Kittens are rubbish, so here's something slightly more serious:

des: what do you think of Glork's contention that he has other ways of getting scum killed? Would your position on him change if such an ability emerged? It confuses me that you disregard this possibility so quickly. Planning future lynches based on "what we know here and now" seems self-defeating to me.

Darox: post plz.

[caf19]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have exactly 60 hours to deadline. I'd really like to see the rest of Darox's analysis right now, time is running out for us... Even if you've only done a part of it, you could just post that part now?

[caf19]

Caf, can you tell us anything new about the lemonade now that 3 cups have been bought?

I haven't learned anything new I was hoping the votecount might provide some new info, but it didn't really. I'll let everyone know if I learn any relevant info.

Also, Caf, I'd like you to thank my ass for buying that third lemonade...

Your ass is thanked.

[caf19]

Whatever Darox says, it's not like we have a choice at this point. This close to deadline, he is our only viable lynch, and whatever the reason for it, he's never going to convince anyone without that post we were waiting for.

Announcing my intention to put my vote on Darox before the deadline hits (I'll probably be around a computer until about 4 hours before the deadline). With Glork and Sly opposing the lynch, and hasd not really having come out either way on it (hasd - if you're around, please let us know what your opinion of the Darox lynch is) that leaves one of dahill and Plum to complete the lynch.

Anyway, let's see what we can get out of the next few hours... Darox, I find it hard to believe that absolutely no details of your role can be elaborated on. Surely there must be something you can tell us, even if it doesn't seem particularly relevant? Also, why aren't you doing the "X is better than Y" thing any more?

[caf19]

As forewarned,

Vote: Darox

. While accusing others of avoiding questions, he does the same thing to a greater extent. Darox's death is a good idea, in my opinion.

L-1. Three and a bit hours to deadline.

[caf19]

Well, Dschingis Khan makes sense with the Moskau song that occasionally came out from des - not sure what to conclude from that though. David Duchovny makes sense with dahill's alien fixation obv. Presumably dahill was trying to find an 'alien' and get them lynched. From dahill's behaviour yesterday, Kmd seems fairly likely to be the lynchee.

I'm selling lemonade again today. I learned nothing new about it in the night - did anyone else?

[caf19]

Caf, I think the lemonade thing MAY be a wild goose chase...

Yeah, I'm beginning to think the same thing. Still, it's the ol' buy-it-if-you-trust-me-enough scenario today.

caf, do you still need meenimum 3 perzons to be drinkingk lemonsaft today too (and each day)?

Yep.

Feorrry kvestion: in games on MS wif lyncher, is lyncher's target generally town-aligned player? or could be any of ozzer players, could be town or scom?

In a more normal game, I'd say the lynchee is more likely to be town - but in this game, who knows?

[caf19]

In addition, isacc and caf are suspicious to me because they are late in joining the darox wagon.

Eh, I was actually on Darox's case for quite a lot of D1 (or as much of 'on his case' as I could be without him answering most of my questions). The reason I didn't vote, as I said at the time, is that I hadn't sold enough lemonade and I didn't want to end the day without this having happened. After the lemonade got bought, I made a couple of other small posts, announced my intention to vote, then voted.

Anyway, I wasn't quite sure who to start with today, as my sights had been set on Darox for most of yesterday. So I analysed the formation of the Darox lynch a bit. My thoughts are this: it formed in a hurried fashion shortly before the first deadline. Then it just sort of hung around in various forms for a week, with attempts to change it being unenthusiastic or unsuccessful. This is commonly how wagons on townies go, with the scum happy not to rock the boat and just leave the wagon 'lying around' until it becomes the only choice. However, Darox was scum - and to that effect you'd expect the other scums at least to try to unsettle it. When the deadline got extended, I'd expect to see scum saying 'oh, we don't have to lynch Darox any more, let's go lynch this guy instead' or something similar. Players who do (or don't do) this:

- Kmd immediately switches back to Isacc when the deadline moves. This does make sense within his play as a whole, and he doesn't push for everyone else to change their vote over, so this is fairly excusable - but still, his "Darox is finally starting to be helpful" line seems rather implausible and it was the most rapid switch away from Darox. A minor mark against Kmd, I'd say. Kmd makes my scumlist but he'd be fairly low down on it; one to come back to later, imo.

- Glork vocally opposed Darox's lynch and supported a des lynch. That's not great, but he was consistent in doing this before and after the deadline extension, and also at the end of the day when Darox obviously going down. Glork doesn't look especially scummy to me.

- SlySly starts pushing pretty hard for the viewpoint that Darox is town - a U-turn from voting Darox a few posts before. He actually switches before the deadline is extended, which I don't quite understand, but maybe he just assumed the extension was going to come. He continues not to be on board with the Darox lynch...

The play of a few has given me a hunch that Darox is town and they are scum.

...until the last few hours when his posts start to be of the "oh hai, maybe Darox is scum after all" tone.

Darox, why can't you be using the time you are using to respond to each of these posts to finish your analysis? That would be the protown thing to do. Your refusal to do so is looking extremely anti-town, bordering on scummy.

Though I have a stinking suspicion that Darox is town, my support for the Darox wagon is growing.

It does look a lot like scumbuddy behaviour, and tbh I wouldn't be against trying to lynch Sly again. (once some lemonade gets bought, anyway)

- Although EK says Isacc is late to join the wagon, he actually did so on the 16th (with all of the extra week to go). He didn't wait around or make any posts trying to get someone else lynched after the extension hit. Isacc might have done bad things in the game, but this isn't one of them.

- Plum is another interesting one: post 779 she makes a huge case culminating in a vote for des. This case seems to be made from the assumption that Darox is town; players are analysed in relation to how scummy their vote on Darox is perceived to be. EK is criticised for her attack on Darox:

On the other hand, interestingly, immediately before this she notes Darox as scummy for 'his unexplained pile-on vote on kmd'. Not totally - as the case progressed Darox expressed sentiments that Kmd was being more self-contradictory than a compulsive liar, from which one may deduce that he saw the 'Kmd's responses are becoming scummy and contradictory' side of the debate

and des's push for a Darox lynch is brought up again and again.

Des notes Darox's 'opportunistic' vote on Kmd early and also notes Darox's overall lack of contribution as reason for his vote and ends his long post by saying that 'I think Darox needs to die'. Bit strong for that amount of proof, but I'll deal. In a subsequent post Des says that ' I think the only good wagons today are on Darox or imaginality'. Interesting.

Des continues to push for the Darox lynch afterwards, citing, of all things, a quote of his in which he attacks Glork for 'giving Darox lip service' on his lack of contributions. Huh? Did I miss something here?

(there's more in the post itself)

Plum deliberately refrains from analysing Darox. The only part of her post that directly addresses him is this:

The Darox reread - the part he's been able to post thus far. Does it make him less scummy? Yes and no, unfortunately. He's at least breaking out of the 'little contributions made' mold, which is good. Does turning over a new leaf make a towntell? Not really. Decent scumhunting, if that's what this turns out to be, would, however.

Odd thing I notice in his analysis of Caf is that his semi?-defense for an accusation that he voted Sly with little case to back him up is that 'One would think placing a vote is a pretty good way of saying "Yep, I think this guy is scummy"'.

So he's neither scummy nor innocent? Well, that's a good way to avoid giving an opinion entirely. At that stage of the game figuring out whether or not to lynch Darox was vital, and Plum avoided the question entirely in favour of judging other players on an implicit assumption that Darox is town. For the record, Plum doesn't clarify her position on Darox in other posts, until post 845 (about a day before the deadline), where she suddenly becomes receptive to it. That looks like buddy behaviour to me, pushing for other lynches until it becomes clear they won't happen, then turning round and sending him to the grave.

tl;dr: SlySly and Plum are suspicious.

[caf19]

Who bought lemonade yeztoday? If buyers are still alive zhey zhould be ze vuns to buy today too (assuming zey still trust caf), yust to minimize risk razor zhan spread rrisk too videly.

Isacc and Sly are alive; des is not.

[caf19]

I had no reason to trust or distrust caf yesterday. Today I feel the burden of proof is on caf to prove town benefits if he wants to sell more lemonade.

So, do you feel there is a reason to distrust me today?

If caf is town, he needs to tell us how the town benefits from the sales before he can expect us to buy anymore.

I think I've said everything I can about the lemonade before. I don't see why it is more risky to buy it today - it should be less risky really, as there is an increased chance that it does nothing. You have attested to the fact that it had no discernible effect on you, and it had no positive effect on me, apart from that one thing, about which I must remain as silent as the grave. (but I think some people have inferred it) The short story is, buy it if you think I'm town.

SlySly does seem a bit more nervous about getting votes today. Perhaps he could be lynchable.

[caf19]

Isacc inferred it when he bought it yesterday.

[caf19]

Maybe it's the meds talking, but I think I'll Buy: Lemonade. I've had town reads from you so far, so I think

letting you live another day

is a good plan. Hopefully I won't regret this once I'm off my meds.

This? Do you die if you don't sell 3 cups of lemonade?

I neither confirm nor deny this.

>_>
<_<

[caf19]

Caf, does lemonade give you and extra vote?

No.

[caf19]

From Plum's defences, it's clear she professes to having had an 'on the fence' mindset towards the Darox lynch.

And I believed that if Darox fell into that position, as he had when the deadline which had been moved fell out, as his play hadn't grabbed me by the shoulders and shouted 'pro-town' at the top of its lungs, I would find a Darox lynch more than acceptable.

1. Not very, especially the last day or two when he kept refusing to provide the PBPAs he'd promised. Des, however, looked scummier.

Those quotations sum up her approach. Fair enough, but why was this not articulated? Plum is a very verbose player and had no problem expressing in great detail her thoughts on the players she suspected (779, for example, is a megapost that addresses both EK and des). Even when players turn up 'middling' on her scumdar, she still tends to elaborate on it (e.g. her posts on dahill vs Kmd, neither of whom she found especially scummy). So why the silence on Darox? I can't seem to explain it. Plum, you said you'd thought you'd made it clear that you thought Darox was not terrible but not brilliant - can you point to any examples of where you might have said this? Without evidence, I can't help but view the case as a 'trust me or don't' affair, which is not entirely solid.

I don't know what to make of the EK wagon. I'll have to read up and assess it.

[caf19]

So, the elvis wagon.

Isacc first suspects elvis in 513, for the concentration on SlySly's 'slip'. Fair enough, I didn't think much of the 'slip' argument either. Also finds EK scummy for not commenting favourably on his plan... shades of self-preservation there, but whatever, he doesn't use it as a major part of his case. What I have trouble buying is his final reason for voting EK on Day 2:

But here's a more interesting thing to note. Darox was scum, and prior to his lynch, I asked for his top three targets. He named, Destructor, myself, and Elvis_Knits.

This is interesting to me, as two of the three are confirmed town (at least to me...those two being Dest and myself of course).

The other, however, was already pretty suspicious in my eyes. So here's what I see: a scum going down would love to accuse a scumbuddy just before his fall, just so that people might loosen up on them after he flipped. So, if two of the three are town, but the other is suspicious...I say EK is probably another scum.

Is that really a better reason to vote for her than her dodgy behaviour or her perceived meta? This just seems like speculation that can't really be verified. Isacc: is there any reason why Darox would be likely to accuse a scumbuddy in his dying throes, or is this just a feeling?

Plum's suspicion of elvis originates in much the same source - in EK's focusing on the slip. Elvis comes up with this defence:

Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.

Looking for slips in general is fine, but this isn't really one, as you don't seem to accept that 'town' is generally interchangeable for 'everyone' around here. So not a huge fan of this defence. But at this point, it appears that the case against EK is built entirely around this one event, and she doesn't seem to have a general history of scummy behaviour throughout the game.

In Plum's 779, the post I find suspicious for an analysis of everyone under the implicit assumption that Darox is town, she assesses elvis's approaches to Darox and others, and comes up with this conclusion:

EK's Darox vote itself doesn't look conclusively scummy itself, I conclude. The stronger scumtells I've picked up along the path, however, are still relevant, at least in my mind. I'd wondered whether my vote on EK needed reconsidering - on reread, however, I think EK's a pretty good pick for scum right now.

The 'scumtells I've picked up along the path' I assume refer back to the 'false slip and change the subject' debate... In other words, yet again no new strong evidence is brought up against her, but she remains a top suspect. Am I missing something?

Incidentally, elvis's D1 behaviour towards Darox doesn't scream 'buddy' to me. Initially she suspects him quite a bit without voting (319, 571) but she does vote for him in 710 - which is earlier than Plum or Sly, or even Isacc.

So, I can see elvis did some questionable things in isolation, and this puts her about level with Kmd on my 'dar. Which is to say, below Sly and Plum. That clarifies things somewhat for me.

Vote Plum

I'd still like a response to 1017, though, Plum.

[caf19]

In my experience, those who repeatedly insist on using WoW usually flip scum.

FoS: Plum

--------------------

I have never heard of a town gambit.

vote: Isacc

This post strikes me as odd. The reasons for suspecting people seem rather underdeveloped and "policy". FoSing Plum because of post length? Surely there must be better reasons at this relatively advanced stage of the game. And your vote continues to jump around at an alarming rate. Is that all the reasoning you have, or are you hiding something?

I'll comment on Kmd's case on Isacc when I have time. My final essay (big part of my degree) is in for Monday... last minute panic time.

[caf19]

Warning, big catch-up post ahead... K, so I had some time to get together my thoughts on the Isacc case.

Just so you know, I'm coming at this from the view that while Isacc has done some stupid stuff in the game, it hasn't necessarily made him scummy, and I don't find that he joined the Darox wagon as late as everyone keeps saying (Sly and Plum were later).

This is all in reference to Kmd's case here.

Point One

-

Stays in random phase as long as possible

-

Yeah, I brought up something similar at the time. This is one of the points I agree with, although on its own it isn't incredibly damning at this point.

Point Two

-

"Admitting" points

Same post, "Yes Caf, you are well to point out I haven't done much yet. I admit, I was a little lost by the randomness of it all for awhile, and hadn't quite caught up."- Admitting it doesn't make it any less true. This is an excellent way for scum to try and lessen points brought up on them. They can say, "Yes, I lurked", "Yes, I lied", "Yes, I fucked up", but the truth is admitting it doesn't mean it never happened. It just means you are defending it differently. This point can still be used even if you admit it's true.

I've seen this argument before, and I've been pulled up for doing something similar in other games (possibly even this game too)... my opinion of it is that while yes, it doesn't absolve you from whatever you're admitting, it doesn't really swing the other way and make you even more guilty either. Not everyone who 'admits' is scum. So, we have to look elsewhere for definite tells.

Point Three

Bad Excuse

Also, "I was waiting for Imaginality's explanation of his vote, but I think i just figured it out."- This was your excuse for staying random. You were waiting for him to explain. What? Do you get random and joke around when a game is in LYLO and everyone is waiting for a player to respond? I don't. You could have done more while you waited.

Yeah, again, I think there are multiple explanations for this one. I know I've done "waiting on x" posts as both town and scum. If you look at Isacc's play from the viewpoint that he's probably scum, I can see how this might compound the case, but to me it just seems fairly subjective and null to me. That applies to quite a few things, so in order to prevent this post being a wall of text where I repeat myself over and over again, I'll skip to some of the juicier points of the case.

Point Seven

Distancing from Darox

Hm, I hadn't really considered the 'FoSing Darox without voting' behaviour before. The first instance is explainable (Isacc had missed a bit of Darox's explanation for voting), but the second one is more interesting: Isacc FoSes Darox in 273 for an unexplained vote, Darox never explains it or addresses said FoS, but Isacc seems to let it drop anyway. @

Isacc

: any explanation for that?

Isacc does continue to suspect Darox without voting for quite a long time, but like I said before, there are a couple of people who are worse culprits of that IMO, so there you go.

Point Ten

"I'm not scummy. Someone else did it too!"

a) Hascow calls you out and you literally say, "Plum did the same thing as me five posts above the one you're voting me over..... So why are you voting for me, but made no such comment to Plum? Scummy." (The dot dot dot is to note that I removed some of the post because it's not relevant.) So. You can't be scum because Plum did the same thing. Not only that, but Hascow is scummy for thinking you are scummy. Textbook OMGUS.

I think what Isacc says himself is not particularly reprehensible on its own, as it's essentially true (Plum did defend Kmd before isacc did). What the issue is here is that (as hascow said at the time) Isacc was ostensibly misrepresenting hascow's case, as he was suspecting Isacc not for a general defence of Kmd, but for a "chainsaw defence" where he attacks the attacker (dahill). @

Kmd

: you didn't really mention this aspect of the argument in your case. Do you think Isacc carried out a "chainsaw defence" and/or misrepresented hasd?

Point Eleven

Extreme over defensiveness

a)We see this when Hascow votes you. You call his accusation "bull crap" and say it "pinged your scumdar like mad". You also toss out a "major FoS Has for a totally bull accusation and tunneling." which is hilarious because Hascow was far from tunneling.

b) Your post 19 is filled with caps, bold, profanity, and bad points. (Not that I have a problem with profanity. Just the way you used it looked over defensive.)

c)Not even gonna go into your response to my original suspicions again. Note that it's there though.

Leaving c) aside (you both get pretty aggressive at that one), I do find a) and b) to be fairly valid points. Posts such as 305 do contain empty displays of aggression that don't serve to further his logical arguments at all.

Point Twelve

Ordering Des to die

Yeah, I gave my opinion of this one at the time... a dumb gambit to attempt, and didn't help the town, but doesn't necessarily make him scum. Sly's position of "gambits are never town" is foolish, IMO.

The other points I missed out are largely illustrations of Isacc's non-committal nature (not wanting to vote, refraining from making a lot of cases on people etc). Fair enough, but I don't really get that feeling from him myself. Meh.

Again, I can discern multiple points against Isacc, but they are all of a fairly minor nature - the overall, major picture doesn't make me feel that we should lynch him. I don't advocate getting him to claim at this point. Perhaps later on if he's still going to be the deadline lynch, but not yet.

---

Some comments on recent occurrences:

I want to see an example where a protown player called his actions, in game, a gambit. I have never seen a protown player do that before, ever.

Why must you continue to be so awkward? People gave you examples - just because there weren't links to them, doesn't prove you right.

Well, tyvm Plum, your helping Isacc defend himself is duly noted. I'm still not moving my vote.

Aaand it's the unwinnable scenario for everyone else. People don't post links, their opinions are useless; people post links, they are scummy for helping others' defences. This is not good scumhunting.

@

des

: Hi! What do you think of EK (the other player who is currently being voted, whom you haven't mentioned so far)?

Aside from a curious way of getting on the SlySly wagon (which I talked about in 515), I haven't found imaginality to have done much scummy stuff. Is there anything in particular I should be focusing on?

To summarise, my list of players looks something like this. Scum at the top:

Plum/Sly.
Isacc/EK.
Kmd.
Glorkdes/imaginality.

with hasd in some mystery position that not even I know.

[caf19]

Vy is it zat joo hav Kmd in zat list?

I noted a couple of minor sources of suspicion on Kmd previously, such as this from post 946:

Kmd immediately switches back to Isacc when the deadline moves. This does make sense within his play as a whole, and he doesn't push for everyone else to change their vote over, so this is fairly excusable - but still, his "Darox is finally starting to be helpful" line seems rather implausible and it was the most rapid switch away from Darox. A minor mark against Kmd, I'd say. Kmd makes my scumlist but he'd be fairly low down on it; one to come back to later, imo.

I don't feel much for a case on Kmd currently, but I'm keeping it noted.

[caf19]

des, what do you think of imaginality's role in the Darox wagon yesterday?

[caf19]

Doc claims generally don't have much in the way of concrete evidence to support or refute them, and that is the case here. However, Isacc's behaviour today seems to support his claim, and I can't find fault with it.

Unvote.

I have made a fairly big fuss about the lemonade sales today and those who bought it. Caf has not even made a peep about it in return; just laying back and smiling as town blindly buys the wares and steering very clear of the topic with every post caf made after the lemonade sales for the day were satiated.

vote:caf

What do you want to know about it? After I've sold my quota I don't want to hang around wasting the town's time with it. It's not like I

want

to spend time on it every day, I do it because, well, you know why.

What's more, your attitude towards me and my lemonade has taken a turn.

I had no reason to trust or distrust caf yesterday. Today I feel the burden of proof is on caf to prove town benefits if he wants to sell more lemonade.

So, do you feel there is a reason to distrust me today?

You have given me no reason to trust you today.

I'm not buying lemonade today unless I am presented a very protown reason to. Caf has not given me any reason to think he is protown. If he dies if he doesn't sell enough lemonade, he should have been trying harder to prove that he is protown.

The above extracts (from posts 972, 980 and 985 respectively) exemplify your attitude towards me: a fairly neutral (if somewhat blunt) attitude towards me. Repeatedly saying I don't seem especially protown and I am not automatically trustworthy, but never saying I am actually suspicious (or pointing out any instances of things I have done that are suspicious in your eyes). It was the people who bought lemonade from such a non-obvtown player who were suspicious. Why has this now switched to an attitude wherein I am outright scummy and voteworthy?

Isacc, EK could have hammered you if her suspicion was true about the majority count, her reluctance suggests townness, unless of course she is just acting to create that effect. I'm assuming EK is town from this action.

I don't think that's a strong enough tell to make one assume she's town.

Assuming Sly still can't be lynched and Isacc and Plum are off the board for now, EK is now at the top spot on my list. Not that I'll take this lightly, mind; EK was below the line of 'acceptable lynches' for me, and I'm still not enthusiastic about lynching her. Meh, this is not optimal.

[caf19]

QFT. That doesn't mean I wasn't suspicious of you. Why did you leave the following quotes out? I think they clearly show an element of suspicion without pointing out any specific action.

The short story is I am going to need a good reason to buy any lemonade today. "buy it (lemonade) if you think I am town" is not going to cut it today, at least for me.

If caf is scum, I don't want to help him by buying his wares. If caf is town, he needs to tell us how the town benefits from the sales before he can expect us to buy anymore.

Unless caf reveals what is accomplished by lemonade sales and it proves to be pro-town, I will not be buying any lemonade today.

Er, not particularly; they demonstrate a similar quality of being fairly neutral while not doing me any favours. They might be a bit more sceptical in tone than the ones I quoted - well yeah, obviously you didn't think I was townie of the year - but that doesn't explain why you didn't actually bring up any specific evidence against me, either in the posts I quoted or the ones you did. Neither does it explain the occasion I quoted in my last post, when I

specifically asked you

whether you had any reason to distrust me. All you had to do was say 'yes' or bring up a point of suspicion you had against me; but you elected to turn the question round by replying with "You have given me no reason to trust you today" - emphasising how there weren't any positive townie aspects to me, but entirely refraining from talking about anything negative or scummy either. So I don't understand your sudden characterisation of yourself as thinking I was scummy all along - the evidence for it just isn't there. Either you are town who didn't think to mention his suspicions, or you are scum who had this saved up as a potential case in case your other planned mislynches went awry.

@ all the points about me being quiet, active lurking, staying in the background etc: go read my other games. I am always one of the quietest players, in every game. It's just how I am. I am quiet IRL, I am quiet here. I do not, however, think I have been an active lurker in this game. An active lurker posts meaningless posts that do not further the progress of the game. Today I have brought up my own suspicions on you and Plum, and made my comments on the elvis and Isacc cases known, at length. Everyone knows what my opinions are and they are not simply echoes of the most popular opinions out there; that is far from meaningless.

Also finds EK scummy for not commenting favourably on his plan...

shades of self-preservation

there, but whatever, he doesn't use it as a major part of his case.

Is self-preservation is a scum tell in your opinion?

Yes, I think so; particularly if used on a larger scale or as a major motivating factor of one's play. Scum only have to stay alive to win and as such are only really concerned with self-preservation, whereas townies have other things (i.e. finding scum) to worry about. If you're querying why I didn't attack Isacc much for this act which I deem to be a scumtell, it's because, as I said, he didn't use it as a major factor. That quotation is actually from a post where he suspects EK but then expresses his support for a different lynch (you). By the time he actually votes EK he is basing his suspicion on other reasons.

If, however, you are referring to the fact that you think I've been preserving myself by selling lemonade, and are trying to corner me into calling myself scummy - well, anyone would try to sell lemonade if they were in my position. I've been as transparent as I can, and scumhunted on top of this.

I don't see why it is more risky to buy it today - it should be less risky really, as

there is an increased chance that it does nothing

. You have attested to the fact that it had no discernible effect on you,

and it had no positive effect on me, apart from that one thing

, about which I must remain as silent as the grave. (but I think some people have inferred it) The short story is, buy it if you think I'm town.

The bolded parts seem like a direct, contradictory lie to me. Paraphrasing... 'There is an increased chance it does nothing and it had no effect on me other than keeping me alive.'

I meant, an increased chance that it does nothing to the drinker. That's something I was basing on your testimony, among others. You know what it does for me.

Let's revisit the last post of yours I pointed out with a different part bolded for emphasis...

This is commonly how wagons on townies go, with the scum happy not to rock the boat and just leave the wagon 'lying around'

until it becomes the only choice

.

Several hours before deadline of the Darox lynch...

Whatever Darox says, it's not like we have a choice at this point.

This close to deadline, he is our only viable lynch, and whatever the reason for it, he's never going to convince anyone without that post we were waiting for.

As forewarned,

Vote: Darox

. While accusing others of avoiding questions, he does the same thing to a greater extent. Darox's death is a good idea, in my opinion.

L-1. Three and a bit hours to deadline.

I'm not a mafia wiki expert and I don't often stay alive this long in a game, so I don't know whether to call this possible bussing or distancing or if those two are basically the same thing. But I think it is clear what I am trying to illustrate here.

I went over something similar with EK earlier. I first expressed suspicion of Darox in post 515; it continued throughout the rest of the day. I didn't express major suspicions of anyone else in that time - I wasn't conforming to the standard buddy behaviour of "FoS your partner and vote (or plan to vote) someone else". As I said at the time, I didn't want to vote until enough lemonade had been bought, as that seemed a bit counter-productive. After the lemonade had been bought, it didn't take long until I voted, but I wanted to wait until the rest of Darox's defence/thoughts because that seemed the pro-town thing to do as opposed to instantly jumping on the wagon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have exactly 60 hours to deadline. I'd really like to see the rest of Darox's analysis right now,

time is running out for us

... Even if you've only done a part of it, you could just post that part now?

Taking the context of this entire post into consideration, 'us', to me, seems to infer caf/Darox.

You might have had a valid point if I was actually using Darox's long posts as an excuse to get off his case. When his first big post came, others immediately took the heat off him, but I questioned it (759) and stayed on his case. If I was really looking for an excuse to vote someone other than Darox, why not do it then?

it will help me if you buy it so it's a case of believing that I'm town.

the consequences are far more personal. Which is why I have to get y'all to believe I'm town, as you'd presumably want to help a townie out.

Also, a friendly reminder that you can still

buy:lemonade

if you happen to want some refreshment and/or want to help

me

out.

Paraphrasing... 'I have to get everyone believing I am town so they can help ME out.'

Well, yes. And I'm town, so if you want to help the town out then help me out, and so on. You personally have bought it and observed that it seems to do nothing to the drinker, so it does appear purely to be a case of helping or hindering me.

---

Perhaps I was a bit premature in removing my vote. Maybe I should have given EK the chance to hammer. Had she hammered and Isacc flipped town, that would have brought suspicion on her and maybe that is why she didn't hammer in the first place.

Do you truly think that 4 votes will be enough to hammer today? I don't think it's all that likely.

@ EK, please address Isacc's issues against you. Given that by elimination you have been propelled to the top of my list, it's vital that I get a better read on you at this point.

[caf19]

EK, your vote is still on Plum, and has remained there throughout your pushing for Isacc to "claim or die" and his subsequent claim and supposed clearing of Plum. Please explain why your vote is still there.

Zumfink abut caf19's rrole vorries me:

I need at least three people to buy lemonade each day.

Zis I am vonderingk abut. Eet seems zat zis vud gif scum ze vin in 5-man lylo. (Zey don't buy lemonade and even if you lynch one of zem, it leavingk 1 townie and 1 scum next day efter you die and zey kill overnight, yes?)

Hmm, I had been worrying about something similar recently. I'm thinking that the mod might 'move the goalposts' and change what I need to do if it gets to such a stage.

So I am qvestioningk vether zere vud be a role vhich is doomed to self-destrrruct near endgame (vunz fewer zan 3 ozzer townies arre alive), even in bastarrd mod game.

Eh, we already have one role that can't vote, and therefore appears to be less than useful in a LyLo situation. My role shouldn't be too much of a stretch for the imagination.

[caf19]

What I am currently thinking is that it's got to be elvis or kmd for me. Need to reread them; will post my results asap.

[caf19]

Ok, so given the events of today it's been narrowed down (for me) to des, EK, imaginality and Kmd. None of them were my top choice lynch, but some would be slightly more palatable than others; I narrowed it down to elvis and Kmd as they are the people who have actually done a couple of suspicious things that I can remember.

Here's what I think of elvis's recent behaviour:

Reading back now, elvis's switch onto Isacc seems a bit late and somewhat unrealistic. She assesses Kmd's case and finds most of the points to be either null or minorly scummy (too minor to make a noticeable difference), except point seven (the "bussing Darox" point). We get this conclusion:

OVERALL:

I think many of kmd's points are null on Isacc. Ones I didn't even list were ones I thought were null. I do however think Isacc's behavior toward darox was extremely suspicious, the FOSing and such. That's the strongest part of the whole thing, and for that alone I think Isacc is a good lynch candidate.

When reading this for the first time I assumed there were some precursors to her willingness to lynch Isacc in previous posts; some other points of suspicion she'd brought up against him. However, on reread I see that there is almost nothing of the sort as elvis had focused her attentions on Plum for most of the day. Yet this one point - the bussing issue - is enough to convince her, and she subsequently is quite aggressive towards Isacc with her 'claim or die' post and later arguments with him (even after his claim).

Now, I don't agree with Isacc when he says that bussing can't be used as a tell. It can, in the same manner as many other behaviour patterns that make it more likely that someone is scum. However, what makes me pause for thought here is that I don't find Isacc's bussing to be that strong. While he does spend a lot of time FoSing without voting, he votes Darox on Feb 16th and doesn't unvote again. Around Feb 18th/19th, there was a des wagon (Plum and Sly voting, with non-voter Glork pushing it) waiting to happen if he had switched over. We know des was town. Is the evidence really that strong to make you immediately support his lynch? That strikes me as a little artificial.

Elvis's switch on to me: well, it's not entirely implausible, she has brought my name up a couple of times today and her last mention of me was calling me out for not contributing enough in 1021 and 1023. It's not like I haven't contributed since then, but whatever. I find this to be 50/50 between town going for what they see as the best option they have left, and scum picking a lynch candidate to rival themselves. I won't dwell on it.

My vote was still there because I thought if I voted Isacc, Isacc might get lynched, and then no more discussion. So I held off. My vote remained there until I decided who deserved it now: you.

Fair enough. I can't see a lynch occurring on only 4, but I can accept that you might.

---

Kmd is currently in the position of not having put down his views on the recent events, so I can't analyse that part of his play yet. Looking back, however, it's very hard to see who he's going to vote for at this point. He was Isacc's fiercest attacker and focused primarily on him, he said he thought EK was town, showed some sympathy towards me (bought lemonade and said "if at any time we want to lynch Caf, we can just refuse to buy lemonade instead"), and he's hardly mentioned imaginality. He mentions him as a suspect D1, but never really explains why. What happened to that, Kmd?

In the meantime,

I would like EK and Imaginality and Caf (in fairness, seeing as he seems to be the other prime suspect) to post reasons for why they should be kept alive instead of the other two. Each of you please post what reasons you find yourself to be more pro-town than the others.

- The wagon on me has built up out of nowhere and there has been scant discussion about it. If I get lynched and turned up town, it'll put everyone in a crappy position tomorrow.
- The case on me is far from comprehensive. It is built mostly around me contributing less regularly than others - guess what, I do that in every game, I'm trying to change my playstyle but it's easier said than done. It's not like I am a total enigma in this game either - I have expressed my opinions on everyone and refrained from following the masses in every decision.
- When it comes to actual instances of scummy behaviour, my voters don't have much (Sly has brought up a few points, which I have replied to; elvis has brought up none).
- If you really want me dead, there is the alternative way, which you worked out. That would save you a lynch.

Moving towards an elvis vote. She just seems the natural choice; I'm not interested in trying to get imaginality lynched. I want to see Kmd's take on things though.

[caf19]

Caf, I don't remember any chainsaw defense from Isacc, no. The biggest thing I saw apart from his "Gambit" was the strong connection to Darox.

K, well that just means I still don't see the case on him as ever being that strong.

Caf, when you make your scum list, why do you have Cow in a "mystery position" that you don't know? Can't you take something from Day 1?

yes, I can, but it didn't seem fair to put him on the same list as the other players when I have a day's worth more material on other people. He didn't really seem to fit on the same scale as everyone else. If I had to put him on the scale-of-everyone it would be fairly low (maybe level with you, Kmd). At this point with so many people out of the picture, I might have considered possibly lynching him if he wasn't silenced, but lynching someone who can't defend themselves and/or claim is a crappy idea, imo.

Caf, my Darox vote before the deadline extension was because Isacc wasn't going to be lynched and the other choice, EK, looked townie. When we got the extension, I was back where I started. Voting Isacc. Darox looked better when he posted his thoughts on half the game. But then he flat out refused to give the rest, so that was the nail in his coffin IMO.

That makes a reasonable amount of sense, but it doesn't change the fact that you didn't seem very eager to lynch Darox and were quite happy to get back on someone else's wagon. hmm... What was it about Darox's long post that made him look more town to you? Others found it to be quite a questionable post.

Sly, Caf doesn't have a free pass if we decide to lynch him (which I see no reason to do). He just won't be killed for lack of lemonade sale.

What post is this referring to? It's just that it appears to be saying that there is no reason to lynch me, when later on you vote for me, which is something of a contradiction. Feel free to clarify if this isn't what you were saying.

Sly, what is the case on Caf?

Again, what's the point of this if you're just going to vote for me without hearing it?

Now Caf. The thing with him is he needs 3 people to buy lemonade. Now asscume him town just for a second. If he doesn't get that, he dies. As long as the game continues, we know we have at least one scum who won't help him stay alive. So if our night matches last night, we are down a lynch, 2 NKs, and a silenced player. That means 6 alive and if someone is silenced, only 5 who can post. Caf needs 3 of the 4 other players to keep him alive. If that doesn't happen, the lynch puts us at 3 people going into night. The scum get their kill and the vig or SK gets a kill. If it's SK, we are screwed.

Now all of that is if he is town. If he is scum, he's obviously a good choice. But I don't think he should be kept alive today either way.

this reasoning just seems insufficient and reminiscent of the 'policy lynch' on Glork that was bring suggested yesterday. Have I actually been scummy or are you just voting me because of this potential liability in situations with fewer players? As I said at one point before, I think that in the case of not enough people being around to buy lemonade, the mod will 'move the goalposts' so my death isn't inevitable. Since I've got the most votes, I may as well add that the mod put something in my role to make me believe that - something along the lines of 'if X happens... who knows'. Heavy paraphrasing obv. The gist of it is that Mirth has clearly considered outcomes such as that one.

[caf19]

To the bolded: What happened to not being able to tell us that?

That bit slipped through in the flow of my post. I guess I didn't check that post as stringently as I normally do for infractions, as I have a greater threat to avoid now (being lynched). We'll see if the mod says anything.

Whoever has the most votes should claim soon in case we need to switch wagons again. If it's me, I'll claim whenever. I'll claim tomorrow morning if I have the most votes. Speak up if you think there should be another plan...

This works. It looks like either you or me, and to a somewhat large extent depends on the opinion of the as-yet-undecided imaginality.

[caf19]

Got warned.

[caf19]

Out of the people who can actually vote, the majority is now against me, so I will claim. Get ready for the least interesting claim of your lives.

I am... someone selling lemonade. Surprising, eh?

Apart from selling lemonade, I am vanilla. Vanilla-ish, anyway - last night, the mod asked me if I wanted to change the mechanics of my role. There was no elaboration apart from that. I declined the offer (selling lemonade was going alright for me at that point). Oh, and there isn't anything in my role about changing it, so that was a surprise for me (I was expecting no night action). But, I'm pretty sure that might have something to do with addressing the 'caf in Lylo problem' that has been brought up.

There is other flavour stuff in my role that I'm not allowed to say - my rough age, what I am using my lemonade sales money for flavour-wise, etc. I am assuming that this stuff is actually flavour and nothing more because a) the lemonade seems to have no effect on the person who drinks it, and b) other people haven't really mentioned anything similar to said flavour. Another piece of speculation on my part is that I'm not allowed to reveal said information because it will make my role seem very innocent, thereby giving me an advantage.

That's about it.

[caf19]

Elvis's claim seems plausible, and fits with her not thinking Isacc was blocked and also saying she was looking for something on D1. Such a role isn't necessarily town though - it could be third party or whatever, and still have that flavour.

Also, in the novel, Don Quixote spends quite a lot of the plot trying to find his 'lady love', but he never finds her and she never appears (and is probably just a figment of his imagination). With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if the lady love doesn't actually exist in the game. I'm not sure what implications that has for elvis's likely alignment. What does everyone else think of her claim?

I don't know. I don't think his behavior really implicates anyone or excludes anyone. I think caf was trying to skate through the game by not doing much, not pissing too many people off. But in truth he wasn't helping, and was mostly just trying to sell lemonade.

I dunno about that. Pissing people off is not a town tell. Sure, I don't like to piss people off, but I disagree with the assertion that I've basically been doing nothing for most of the game.

@ Plum and des: I'm just someone selling lemonade.

[caf19]

I'm just someone selling lemonade

Maybe... (though it's interrrestingk you vud get plenty of ozzer flavour but no more zpezific name). But zere is enough vagueness arround your rrole to make me uneasy. I haf a hunch zere is more to you zan it zeem, yes?

I don't really know what to say to speculation like this. It's gonna be disappointing when I die and it turns out that my role is exactly how I said it was. But, I guess I can't expect you to believe that.

Eh, the wagon on me is... strange. I've just never seen a wagon where half the people on it seem to think the person they're voting is actually town. Kmd seems to be the worst culprit for this - he's purely voting me for the "uselessness in Lylo" argument, one which I made a counter to but he just ignored it. 1142 is a kind of amicable post where he accepts most of my points and then says he's happy with his vote anyway. It's just weird. I don't think many people will be very surprised when I flip town (deadline is in like 3 hours, so I guess I'm definitely done for).

[caf19]

Wow, good job on an incredible setup Mirth

I have to admit, I followed the game after I died, and had no idea who the scum would be. Oh well.