[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Korts]

DMC9

2 Mafia

1 Death Miller Jack of All Trades (one shot each of investigate, protect, roleblock)
4 Vanilla Townies

[Korts]

I don't see what the big fuss is about. JDodge didn't really ruin anything, he just pointed the flaw out in practice instead of raising his concerns. I'm fairly sure that if he had done the latter he would have been ignored. And anyway, the setup he proposed was clearly designed to end quickly while still proving the point.

BTW I agree with shaft.ed. More tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved.

[Korts]

Impotence Mafia

Thanks for reminding me; after the game had started an inherent flaw occurred to me.

Impotence

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Roleblocker
2 Compulsive Blank Vigs (shoot blanks, kill never goes through)
1 Compulsive Vig
1 Pro-Town Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies

The blank vigs will, under most scenarios, know after N1 whether their kill can go through or not. This game needs more blockers, or a protective role.

[Korts]

Thanks Plum. Now in the right thread:

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

I'd say either one more townie or cop head start would be better.

[Korts]

Cop head start wouldn't make a huge difference, being a 1-shot ability. Unless, of course, I'm missing something and optimal strategy involves a blind firing N0.

I know. It adds a layer of thought for the cop; I was actually going to say night start first, but realized that with 10 players going into day 1 with 3 mafia it'd be mylo D2 with one mislynch.

I agree with Goat though that town is seemingly underpowered. But the concept is to have only one one-shot ability in the whole game bar mafia kills, as far as I understand--and an additional watcher/tracker would ruin the whole thing. So my idea is turn 1 mafia into vanilla townie, like so:

2 mafia
1 one-shot cop
8 vanilla townies

mandatory lynch, nk

[Korts]

I don't think another townie would be useful, I think that having an odd number of townies is better for the town than even. I also do not want to give someone the chance to completely screw over/unbalance the game by randomly shooting their one-shot cop ability on night 0.

Yeah, I realized after giving more thought to it that that probably was the concept. See post 165 for my revised suggestion. Although it's still an even number of vanillas, with the cop it's 9:2. You're right, cop head start's a bad idea on second thought... Day start should do it much better.

[Korts]

EDIT: moved to the theme test market.

[Korts]

Nominate Vengeful

second

[Korts]

I'd offer the various versions of

Two of Four

up for review. The concept is that there are two power roles in play, randomly chosen from four possible roles (without duplication). It's been played two times in a cop/doc/rb/miller version (one with 9 players, one with 7), both with town wins, and two times in a cop/doc/rb/vanilla version (also one with 9 and one with 7), with one town (9p) and one mafia win. Is the setup too tilted towards town? Is it semi-breakable with a massclaim? Is the setup more balanced with 9 players? The one I played in (Prozac's game) was ultimately won for town by massclaim.

Here are the links:
Two of Four a9
Two of Four a7
Two of Four b7
Two of Four b9

[Korts]

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self))
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self); unlimited NK-immunity) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

[Korts]

Nominate JK9

I think Eye C9 is too harsh on scum

Eye C9 has two roles that have basically half the chance of a cop of catching scum, and can't confirm innocents, though they have the advantage over a cop of not both being able to die in one night. So I can't see how it's harder for scum, than, say, California.

simply wait till tracker has found one scum: after that, he claims, that night, watcher watches tracker and the game is close to unwinnable for scum.

Without a doctor, how do you wait until tracker finds scum without having the scum kill half the town in the meanwhile?

I like EyeC9.

second JK9, third Two of Four B9

EDIT: I didn't see shaft.ed's 253.

[Korts]

Been thinking about the Two of Four concept. Basically the Miller hurts scum because it makes a confirmed innocent towards end game if not countered. Thus forcing scum into a 50/50 situation at massclaim.

Since there is no assurance of there being a Miller at all, it doesn't make them confirmed for lack of a counterclaim.

I'm thinking of a 3 of 4, or a 3 of 5 set up:

9 players:
2 scum
7 town

and either three of the following 4:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie

OR three of the following 5:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie
1 Miller

Flipping the RB over to the mafia side helps scum combat the possibility of town power roles and gives a possible solution to follow the cop.

This could still suffer from the situation that happened with Kison in F11 where the mafia RB was the D1 lynch, though a Cop/Doc combo is not gauranteed (or likely) in such an instance.

The 3 of 5 would be better than the 3 of 4 simply because of the bigger variance of role interaction, giving scum better fakeclaiming prospects. with 3 of 4 there'd only be 4 possibilities, while with 3 of 5 there'd be... god I'm lazy to do the math.

I like this idea though.

[Korts]

Oh. I originally meant "alignment invert" to mean alignment investigation immunity, but I guess it works both ways.

I assume all your questions are based on the thought that the anti-town jacks can change people's alignments.

1. for the sake of simplicity anti-town just like mafia is; his alignment invert would recruit a partner for him (either from town or from the mafia) or make him town.
2. anti-town
3. ethical? I don't think it's a question of ethics, it would be the correct play.
4. restrict the mafia jack's alignment invert; cannot target self. he can either convert another mafia into town (I don't see any particular motive for that though) or town into mafia. SK would become part of the mafia as well.

[Korts]

here is one way:

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->sk->town->mafia & can target self)
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->town->sk->mafia & can target self & has unlimited NK-immunity) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

now the massclaim will not happen for fear of treachery... or will it?

This is good; gives the mafia jack incentive not to give his old partners to the town even if he converts to being the SK's partner.

[Korts]

Hmm. I see you removed the NK-immunity; do you think it made the SK too strong? They can still be caught by investigation.

But as to your scenario, I don't see why the mafia jack would claim. even if they're converted, they would be partnered with the SK and the town would be aware of this; therefore they'd be lynched as an anti-town faction. Same for the neutral jack. if they convert, they become mafia and don't have any more incentive to claim truthfully than before; probably less.

[Korts]

Hm. I definitely think the SK needs the NK-immunity, or unlimited kills. Otherwise it's a significantly weaker role than SKs in general. Even then I could see mafia jack having the SK convert him to his side to form a second mafia group while keeping up the facade of both becoming town. It doesn't break the game this way, it just adds an unnecessary layer of WIFOM.

EDIT: so I agree with

your

edit, the original idea is more workable even if this one is more interesting.

[Korts]

I'd rather have

2 Mafia

1 Doctor
5 Townies,

because the doctor can produce only innocents while the cop can pinpoint scum.

[Korts]

I'd rather have

2 Mafia

1 Doctor
5 Townies,

because the doctor can produce only innocents when a player is saved while the cop can pinpoint scum.

I think a doctor in such a game is too swingy

swingy, to my mind, implies that it can have bad consequences for town as well as scum. That's not true here.

[Korts]

Oh yeah and

nominate Bugs Bunny 2:10

Simple solution to the 2:10 curse.

[Korts]

Ah but in that case cop is more swingy in Gurgi's proposed setup than if we substitute it with a doc.

[Korts]

How about this?
2 Mafia Goons
1 Even Night Cop
1 Odd Night Doctor
5 Vanilla Townies
Day Start

This setup needs a name.

Also, is it balanced?

Alternating C9

AC9/DC9.

Hahaha

I think it's worth a run.

nominate AC9/DC9

[Korts]

Nokill 10

6 townies
1 doctor
1 roleblocker
2 mafia

Day start, mafia must kill every night.

I like this setup, a lot. I considered something like this, but my antipathy for info roles has reached such a noxious point that I'm wary of even roleblockers, these days.

I don't like the compulsory kill for mafia. Withholding a kill may be a valid tactic.

[Korts]

Smalltown is not a specific setup, as far as I know.

[Korts]

For reference: do nominated setups now go to the certification group for review?

[Korts]

Insanity Runs amok

2 Mafia Goons
1 Insane Cop (Paranoid)
1 Insane Cop (Naïve)
1 Insane Cop (Random)
1 Insane Cop (Standard Insane)
1 Insane Cop (Sane but thinks he's insane)
1 Psychiatrist

The psychiatrist turns insane cops sane as a night choice. The Insane cops don't know what type of insanity they have. The psychiatrist gets a N0 head start (no killing or investigating N0). The psychiatrist also dies if (s)he targets a mafia.
It's kind of like dethy, but with a twist and more players.

cop result claim and psychiatrist hypoclaim for following nights, and then the same strategy as dethy. It's more a logic game than a game of mafia.

Also, "random" is too hard to find and only disrupts play IMO.

[Korts]

Wow, Farside was a lot bretter at picking set ups than Adel.

The setups Adel listed are those that the Open Certification Group has collectively acknowledged as balanced and not in need of a review.

These are not Adel's choices; we have flagged setups that potentially need more discussion or work, and will constantly be adding approved setups to the list.

[Korts]

From the Open Certification Group thread: Bird C9 may need renaming since it has none of the traits that C9 got its name for.

[Korts]

Bird 7p?

[Korts]

I don't think it's terribly unbalanced--maybe my balance sense isn't what it used to be?

[Korts]

50%?

2 Lovers Mafia

2 Masons
2 Townies

Night Start

I'm not comfortable with D1 LYLO.

[Korts]

50%? V.2

2 Mafia Lovers
2 Masons
1 Vengeful Townie

Daystart I assume? Again, D1 LYLO, and as opposed to Vengeful, if a pro-town role is lynched town has only a 1 in 3 chance of getting a vengeful kill. If a mason is killed mafia win instantly.

Breaking strategy: instant mason claim, getting either a confirmed pair or two pairs of claimed and counterclaimed; first scenario yields instant town win by lynching a random person of the three and if townie having them shoot another of the three; in the second scenario the unclaimed remaining player (the townie) is lynched and has a 50% chance of hitting scum. It takes the game away from town and puts it into a single player's hands.

The original was probably better, although I haven't given that much thought yet.

[Korts]

The First Part of your breaking strategy: Scum could also claim scum. That's not a problem with the set up.
The second part: This doesn't increase the town's odds of winning.

That's true. But masons will have to claim, since lynching a mason = a town loss. And if masons claim, then scum counterclaim, and again, it is down to a single player to actually play.

[Korts]

I like it. No breaking strategies occur to me, and 50-50 is a very very good EV. The certification group is discussing friends and enemies at the moment, but I'm sure this will go through very easily.

[Korts]

I meant your game

If scum do an action that everyone knows is bad for the town, I doubt they won't be lynched.

But it is optimal play for the town for the masons to claim, since accidentally lynching them would be an instant scum win.

[Korts]

The First Part of your breaking strategy: Scum could also claim scum. That's not a problem with the set up.
The second part: This doesn't increase the town's odds of winning.

That's true. But masons will have to claim, since lynching a mason = a town loss. And if masons claim, then scum counterclaim, and again, it is down to a single player to actually play.

If masons claiming leads to masons getting lynched then it ruins your reasoning for masons claiming.

Um, masons

not

claiming is what may lead to masons getting lynched, while masons claiming turns the game into a single player's decision. It is a game without any fun.

And yes, 689 is at True Love I just went to have lunch and posted without checking the thread. I nominated it for certification.

[Korts]

The First Part of your breaking strategy: Scum could also claim scum. That's not a problem with the set up.
The second part: This doesn't increase the town's odds of winning.

That's true. But masons will have to claim, since lynching a mason = a town loss. And if masons claim, then scum counterclaim, and again, it is down to a single player to actually play.

If masons claiming leads to masons getting lynched then it ruins your reasoning for masons claiming.

Um, masons

not

claiming is what may lead to masons getting lynched, while masons claiming turns the game into a single player's decision. It is a game without any fun.

So mason claiming leads to masons not getting lynched?

No, masons claiming leads to there being two pairs of masons being claimed, leaving the vengeful townie to decide.

[Korts]

Empking: the masons claim because if they don't, they are lynch candidates--and a mason lynch is an instant loss for town.

[Korts]

Empking: the masons claim because if they don't, they are lynch candidates--and a mason lynch is an instant loss for town.

They Claim: So they won't be lynched.
When they claim: The odds of one of them getting lynched goes up by 10%.

Am I getting this right?

No. Neither the real masons nor the claimed masons will be getting lynched, the vengeful townie will.

[Korts]

So the masons claim in order to not get lynched by increasing their odds of getting lynched?

They aren't increasing their odds of getting lynched unless I'm missing something big.

[Korts]

Line Tapper Smalltown

4 pairs of Neigbours
1 Line Tapper

2:7 Smalltown
Daystart

Line Tapper sees full QT.

[Korts]

Usually, the first post of this thread. Right now, the updated list is in post 479 of same thread.

Also, can someone go through the recent pages for nominated and seconded setups? I have no time for it atm. The Certification Group needs to be kickstarted again.

[Korts]

Thanks BAB!

I'm gonna take One-Shot C9 and Cowardly to the certification group.

[Korts]

Delayed Reaction

12 Players:

3 Mafia Bombers
1 Explosives Expert
1 Explosives Expert's Understudy
7 Vanilla Townies

The mafia do not night-kill, instead each night they choose from two options: plant a bomb on a player, or detonate all previously planted bombs. Being blown up kills a player. The explosives expert can check a player each night to see if they have a bomb planted on them. The understudy gains the abilities of the explosives expert when they die. Mafia cannot plant bombs on themselves. The explosives expert will receive a positive result on whomever they investigate if a bomb was planted on them on a previous night or during the night the investigation was undertaken. All roles are revealed upon death, including that of the understudy.

This is an interesting mechanic, and gives scum a lot more to think about--but for all intents and purposes, mafia only have a fraction of a kill per night here. Assuming mafia will try to maximize efficiency and plant as much bombs as possible before detonating, though, and let's say the balance between killing a few early on and more later on is around Night 3 or 4, the mafia kill per night ratio will be 2/3 and 3/4 respectively. In a 3:9 ratio town needs considerable power to counterpoint a vanilla scumgroup, so obviously even a scumgroup with 2/3rd or 3/4th strength needs some town power in response.

What is the purpose of the explosives expert? Can they disarm the bombs, or only find them? If the latter, and it's the latter unless I'm mistaken, they have little to no purpose, since the mafia kill will go through one way or another--it's basically just a pre-emptive death scene reveal.

So basically my verdict is that in its current form town needs slightly more power.

[Korts]

I hadn't thought of it like that. That puts things in a different perspective.

I'll give this more thought tonight or tomorrow, depending on how drunk I'm gonna be when I get home.