[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Max]

I feel that now this new thread has been made a split off may be necessary. See the thread in SI for coversation on this.

2:2:8 Nightless

[Max]

Wheels on the C9+2

2 Mafia (50% chance of 1 being Bus Driver)
0 or 1 Cop (50% chance of occurrence)
0 or 1 Bus Driver (50% Chance of occurrence)
5 to 7 town

[Max]

So nominate my

Wheels on the C9

[Max]

Chain Reaction

I've run a game called that what about:

Everybody's Vengeful

[Max]

Dual-Mafia

- 13 players, day start

2 x East Mafia
1 x East Cop

2 x West Mafia
1 x West Cop

6 x Townie
1 x CPR Doc

[Max]

O.k.

Mafia and Werewolves Fight Again

2 x Mafia
1 x Cop

2 x Werewolves
1 x Seer

6 x Townie
1 x CPR Healer (As Docs can only heal mafia kills)

[Max]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1

CPR

Doc
5 Townies

It adds a layer of wifom, which is always necessary when there are cops and docs

[Max]

Actually if the CPR doc was a one shot, it would still be a good power

[Max]

I was under the impression in twofold there were no cross kills?

[Max]

Wheels on the C9+2

2 Mafia (50% chance of 1 being Bus Driver)
0 or 1 Cop (50% chance of occurrence)
0 or 1 Bus Driver (50% Chance of occurrence)
5 to 7 town

What happens when both bus drivers target one another?

If you mean what happens when they both target the same two people, they go back to how they were.

Bus Drivers Can't Target Themselves

[Max]

I think I get what farside meant now (thanks sens) the busdrivers actions take place in order they are received, or it could be set beforehand as a part of the role resolution

X targets Y, Z
Y targets X, Z

Y -> Z -> X (Y is now X)
X -> X -> Z (X is now Z)
Z -> Y -> Y (Z is now Y)

X targets Y, Z
Y targets X, W

Y <-> Z
X <-> W

X targets Z, W
Y targets V, W

Same as first

X targets Y, Z
Y targets W, V

Same as second

X targets Y, Z
Y targets Z, W

Y -> Z -> W
W -> W -> Z
Z -> Y -> W..

[Max]

Empking (Which is who he's an alt of... Presumably)

So after a year on the site he probably knows how to mod a game

[Max]

I agree with CES, (see basically communism mafia)

Simple Sanity Issues

3 Mafia (One Role Blocker)

1 Cop (50% Sane, 50% Insane)
8 Town

[Max]

Empking, it's basically Strawberry Mafia (Remove the Vanilla that was going to be there but I copied from another set-up)

Which is a simple proven set-up, it just adds a layer of texture and doubt and prevents clearing some roles within 2 days, and prevents everyone being cleared in endgame

[Max]

It provides basic sanity issues, it isn't worse for the town, because the cop would claim until they have a guilty, whereas with this they'd wait two or three nights before claiming

[Max]

9 Players people.

[Max]

I forsee a problem, there are a number of "unique views" in the corner, so if they have fixed IP adresses they can tell when another person has logged in

[Max]

Simple, vow to post every time you even refresh it, and just post the number your view says.

And ort, it only applies if people actually have fixed IPs.

[Max]

Noah's Ark 3.0
2 Mafia A (Provided with one random safe claim)
2 Mafia B (Provided with one random safe claim)

There are 8 players who are distributed to the following roles. There will either be 0 or 2 of each:
Cops (If selected one can only find Maf A the other Maf B)
Doctors (If selected one can only protect from Maf A the other Maf B)
Millers (who get a Townie Role PM)
Roleblockers, Trackers, Watchers, Martyrs, Lovers, Masons, Townies and so on


Town have 8 players randomly across the different possibilities.

[Max]

Does that mean all possible roles? Because, if I got a townie PM, I'd go right out and say "I'm a miller, folks". Because the chances of getting town and miller in the same game are SO DAMNED LITTLE.

Actually the chances of getting a miller are the same as getting a townie.

[Max]

Does that mean all possible roles? Because, if I got a townie PM, I'd go right out and say "I'm a miller, folks". Because the chances of getting town and miller in the same game are SO DAMNED LITTLE.

Actually the chances of getting a miller are the same as getting a townie.

but the chances of getting town & miller in the same game is smaller then getting town OR miller.

What if the other townie claims townie? You'd have no reason to claim miller over townie. The claim of townie has implications of being a miller anyway.

[Max]

I think a better idea may be as follows:

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
8 Town

Are assigned randomly independently from the following (which have either 0 or 2):

Cops, Doctors, Millers (who get a Townie Role PM), Roleblockers, Trackers, Watchers, Martyrs, Lovers, Masons, Townies

It may be possible for either 0, 1 or 2 of each role to be mafia.

[Max]

Having either 0 or 2 gets reductionist once you lynch several people. Scum will be screwed in any PR fakeclaim if several Townies die and no power roles have...

Hence my powers and alignment independently distributed. So you could have two mafia cops on the same side. or have two townies with the power no way of knowing/

[Max]

They'll learn their safeclaims and their exciting powers so mafia A might get the following message:

MafA

You are Mafia A1 (A Tracker) with Mafia A2 (A Cop), you both want to take over the world together.

They know that there is another tracker in the game, either MafB or Townie. And there is another Cop again either MafB or Town. I think it may be very swingy but definitely not broken

[Max]

The issue with yours mr flay is that day there are 8 different possible powers 4 will be selected for the town so 8C4 makes 70 different possible distributions of powers. The game would become like C9++ So many different game possibilities it would never be certain if it was balanced or not.

[Max]

If people know going in that there are traitors then why not make them 'hoods, if people don't know then I feel it's basterd modding as mason means confirmed town, thus your lying in the role PM's.

Mason =! Confirmed Mason

[Max]

I'd like to see a 3:3:6 nightless. (I believe that's the right proportion, though I'm sure someone know the actual correct ratio)

I'd also like to see a Double Day game.
As well as a large.

Propositions:

Double Day

7 Vanilla
3 Mafia

I believe that is somewhere in the region of a balanced.

Large can be anything I suppose. Large C9?

[Max]

Immune Mafia

IMMUNITIES:
1 NK immune mafia
1 RB immune mafia
1 Cop immune mafia

1 SK immune to RB plus cop or nk

4 NK immune town
4 RB immune town
4 Cop immune town

Roles:
MAFIA
1 RB
1 Rolecop (Not NK immune)
1 Goon

1 SK

TOWN
9 Vanilla
1 Cop (Not kill immune)
1 RB
1 Vig

Immunities are distributed separately to roles except in SK's case where there is only one possibility. In the case of the PRs they can only have one of 2 immunities each, this is to prevent potential imbalances and the cop being immune to mafia's kills.

Immunities not revealed upon death. If all players remaining have NK immunity the game reverts to nightless

[Max]

There's no limit. If it's large it goes into New York, mini into Little Italy.

Most Recent Large Open

EDIT: also it's only 16 players so it isn't the biggest open organised.

[Max]

It might be more suited for a theme than a normal.

[Max]

No, as that is unfair to people who have lives...

[Max]

What about misleading the town into lynching a certain player or appear to be supporting the lynches of your partners'. Induce wifom into the game?

[Max]

There are two variations:

1. When the Princess is lynched double night
2. When the Princess is killed, double night

In this case I suspect 1

[Max]

Wow, I have a column.

On a side note I find it interesting that Role Cop is considered more normal than a sane cop or a varying sanity cop.

[Max]

watchers would only really ever find scum as it's unlikely they target the other watcher who just so happens to be picking the mafia's target.

Two-Fold C9

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves

0-2 of (Cop, Human Tracker, Doctor)
0-2 of (Seer, Animal Tracker, Sorcerer)
0-8 Vanilla Town

Now, it make look quite imbalanced but there is plenty of scope for potential power. The roles for cop and seer aren't symmetrical so it could be that there are 2 seers and no anti-mafia powers. Now that's unlikely but it's possible.

The Number of Town Power is (1/6th, 4/6ths and 1/6th) for 0, 1 and 2 respectively. This applies to both. Once into the selection of powers it is equally likely for the first power (1/3rd each) then for the second power the chance of the first power is decreased by half (i.e. if Cop first, chance of cop second time 1/6th)

So here are the possible distributions:

Mafia Powers

(Same for Werewolves but with altered names)

1. 0 Powers (1/6th)
   
2. 1 Power (4/6ths)
   1. Cop (1/3rd)
      
   2. Human Tracker (1/3rd)
      
   3. Doctor (1/3rd)
3. 2 Powers
   1. Cop (1/3rd)
      • Cop (1/6th)
        
      • Doc (5/12ths)
        
      • Human Tracker (5/12ths)
   2. Doc
      • Cop (5/12th)
        
      • Doc (1/6ths)
        
      • Human Tracker (5/12ths)
   3. Human Tracker
      • Cop (1/6th)
        
      • Doc (5/12ths)
        
      • Human Tracker (5/12ths)

So I decided to do some set-up generations:

2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, Human Tracker, Sorcerer, 6 VT
2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, Doctor, Tracker, 6 VT
2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, Animal Tracker, Seer, 6 VT

The last one may appear to have issues for the werewolves however the power is good enough for the town and the mafia and werewolves both have potential counter claims.

Animal Tracker

You are the

Animal Tracker

you are good at tracking animals in particular, which is useful if you are against Werewolves. Unfortunately the Mafia's strong ability to skulk around without being noticed limits your ability to stalk them. You can stalk the average person as they have nothing to hide

Human Tracker

You are the

Human Tracker

you are good at tracking humans, which is useful against the Mafia. Unfortunately the Werewolves are too fast for you to be able to stalk them. You can stalk the average person as they have nothing to hide.

Thoughts?

[Max]

I do really want thoughts on that, should a 1 shot X kill immunity be enforced.

[Max]

Perhaps something to differentiate the scumgroups would be appropriate - if you have the potentail for the anti-Mafia town powers to be stronger than the anti-Werewolf powers (or vice versa), perhaps also include the possibility of Mafia powers (or Werewolf powers). Or, you could take it a step further and have a different set of possible town powers assigned to each scumgroup... make the Tracker a Werewolf-only possibility, for example.

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Town

0-2 of (Cop, Human Tracker, Doctor)
0-2 of (Seer, Animal Tracker, Sorcerer)

Same odds however:
- Once powers generated they are randomly allocated to either town or the other scum group.

So Cop can be Werewolf or town.

[Max]

Trigger Mafia:

3 Mafia (1 JK, 1 Tracker and a Strong Man)

9 Town (1 JK, 1 Tracker and a Vig)

If the town use their Jailkeeper the Mafia can use theirs
If the town use their Tracker, the Mafia can use theirs
If the town use their Vig, the Mafia can use their Strong Man (Unstoppable)

If one of the roles dies the other is no longer accurate.

You are the

Town

<Role>.
Each night you may <insert power>. If you use your power your mafia equivalent (<Insert Role>) can also use their power. If you do not they will be blocked for the evening.

You win if all mafia players are killed and at least one town member is alive.

You are the

Mafia's

<Role>.
Each night you may <insert power>. If your town counterpart (<insert equivalent>) uses their power you will be able of using yours. If they do not you will be blocked and receive no result for the evening.

You win if all town players are dead and at least one mafia member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

Is it balanced or is it too in favour of town. I'm considering flipping who over who for the tracker (i.e. the mafia determine if town can use theirs). Thoughts?

[Max]

'Hoods II

Town:
Bodyguard (Is this basically a martyr)
Tracker
2 Shot Vig
7 VT

Mafia:
Tracker
2 Goons

SK

6 Town Players are randomly selected + 1 Random Scum + SK. These make mason pairs and can night talk.

[Max]

No. Confirmed-Mason means confirmed town.

EDIT: But there's no need to be pedantic, as there's a possibility that their counterpart is scum it hardly means confirmed.

[Max]

Variable Large Town

Alignment Distribution

4 Mafia
16 Town (Balanced?)

Power Set 1 (Investigative)

1 Cop (50% Chance Conf. Sane, 25% Chance Unconfirmed Sane, 25% Chance Insane)
50% Chance of an additional cop with no guarantee of sanity (50% Sane, 50% Insane)

If there are 2 Cops Mafia receive a GF (Inv. Immune)

Power Set 2 (Protective)

1 Doctor (50% Chance Conf Sane, 25% Chance Unconfirmed 'Sane', 25% Martyr)*
+ 25% Chance of a JK

If there is a JK the mafia receive either a 1-Shot Strongman (Can kill through protects - this is active and the strongman must explicitly state if he's using the power or not) or a Roleblocker.

*Sanity for the doctor denotes how willing he is to die for his cause

Power Set 3 (Named/Mason Groups)

Mason Pair or 2 Freds
+ 50% Chance there is a (possibly) additional Fred

The Mason pair cannot night talk, they are only confirmed to each other.

Example Set-Ups

1. 3 Goons, 1 Godfather, 2 Cops (1 Conf. Sane), 1 Martyr, 2 Freds, 11 Townies
   
2. 4 Goons, 1 Cop (Conf. Sane), 1 Doc (Conf. Sane), 3 Freds, 11 Townies
   
3. 2 Goons, 1 Godfather, 1 Scum Roleblocker, 2 Cops (Both Insane), 1 Martyr, 1 Jailkeeper, Mason Pair, 10 Townies

Now I don't think any of these are too bad, one possible change is there is either 1 Miller or a Godfather so the scum don't know if there are 2 cops or not. But it doesn't appear too biased to one side.

[Max]

Not mafia. Not only is there only one mafia, they can't kill so the town is starved of all information.

There's no mafia kill nor inter-scum reactions. The mafia would have to do something stupid to lose by good play rather than chance.

[Max]

In which case the game would be a 3 man lylo unless the Vig hit correctly. And then the mafia could win.

[Max]

Could be over day one or night one.

Presumably the code sharer would claim if about to be lynched. But a spy would counter claim. If the second-in-command is killed then the mafia must kill people that are more scummy as they want as many people with the code to stay alive (so the medic chooses one of them).

It's definitely a theme.

[Max]

Don't make it compulsory? And make it so that if the code-carrier dies day 1 then someone new is randomly selected. A bit unfair but it prevents the game from ending day one.

EDIT: Though possibly just not making it compulsory is good enough.

[Max]

OK "CREW" TELL ME RIGHT NOW WHAT THE FIRST LETTER OF THE CODE IS

Simple, make it so that the Code is a computer code that humans can't read and they are passing around a memory chip/copies of it.

[Max]

S(enile)-9

9 Players

1 Mafia, 1 Senile Mafiate, 1 Senile Cop, 1 Senile Doc, 5 Town
2 Mafia, 1 Senile Doc, 6 Town
2 Mafia, 1 Senile Cop, 6 Town
1 Mafia, 1 Senile Mafiate, 7 Town

The term "senile" means that they are capable of forfeiting their ability and receiving one off actions. (Unlike 1-Shots these have pre-determined targets)

You are the

Senile Cop

, once per game you may spend the night reading through all of your notes you took in your time in the force and find one live player you are certain are innocent.

You win with town

(Will receive a random town-aligned player confirmed to be innocent)

You are the

Senile Doc

. Once per game you may come out of retirement to protect one random live town player from a mafia kill. Unfortunately because you're blind you are not sure who's house you are visiting, but your guide dog will take you to a town player.

You win with town.

You are the

Senile Mafiate

. Once per game (instead of killing) you may drug one town power (at random if both use their ability that night) and alter their aid's actions (i.e. edit the cops notes/lure the doc's guide dog) action redirect it to a town player of your choice.

You win with mafia

[Max]

Well open games have a fixed number of players. So pick a size of set-up then we can go further. Every player being a power is not normal. Rename the roles to their current form:

Sushi Man = Townie
Monk = Super Saint

and then it looks better but is just as bad. There is no explanation of why a mafiate would hoodwink someone as there is no benefit. Etc.

[Max]

Not balanced. The mafia have nowhere to hide in a mass claim.

[Max]

* 1 Mafia Godfather
* 1 Mafia Goon
* 1 Mafia Roleblocker
* 2 Miller Cops
* 1 Doctor
* 6 Vanilla Townies

Remove the RB and the Doctor and I think the game is balanced (ie. 3 Mafia (1 Inv. Immune), 2 Miller Cops, 7 Town)

[Max]

Independence of alignment is a good idea.

[Max]

I think it's too swingy. There are too many power roles and nowhere for Scum to hide... well, if they distribute themselves successfully precisely 2 of each roleclaim would occur. But then the game would turn more into a puzzle as you know precisely one of (two players) are anti-town...

I think add a few vanillas and you have a more balanced game.

[Max]

Opposite Day

- 16 player open

Even Night Mafia

Even Night RBer
Even Night Goon
Even Night Doc

Odd Night Mafia

Odd Night RBer
Odd Night Goon
Odd Night Doc

Even Third

Even Night Sk - Odd NK Immune
Odd Night Sk - Even NK Immune

Town

Even Doc
Odd Doc
Even Cop
Odd Cop
Even Vig
Odd Vig
Even RBer
Odd RBer


Even Night Mafia gets a group kill independent of abilities on even nights, same with odd nights for Odd Night Mafia. Mafia Doctors can protect themselves if both of their teammates are killed.

I think it might be more balanced if you make them double days. (Ie two lynches a night)

[Max]

I hope by janitor you mean that Alignment is still revealed? As that would screw over the town.

[Max]

Twomz my concern is that currently they could lynch right every day and still lose.

[Max]

Yes, I'm just saying that I don't see towns chances of winning being good by any measure. If you have a 25:25:25:25 (Maf A:Maf B:Town:Third Party) I will be the first to congratulate you, however I don't believe Town have a fair chance of winning. The fact is that town shouldn't be forced to lose if they lynch/vig correctly each night.

[Max]

2:2:8 in vanilla is often considered acceptable, but the town can win if they lynch right every time. The chances of it happening may be slim but if the town can lose through no fault of their own it isn't that fair.

[Max]

Partially, yes. C9++ was here and it landed in the Queue and I think two-fold C9 among others came out of here as well.

Yeah, I'm just a tad disappointed it appears to have been mod-abandoned.

[Max]

Threefold

3 Mafia A
3 Mafia B
3 Mafia C
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Cop C
1 Universal Insane Cop
1 Doc
1 JK
1 Tracker
8 Town

Balanced/Not Balanced?

[Max]

Does each mafia get a kill every night? Does the cops know which one of the 4 they are? What's a JK?

Yes. No and Jailkeeper, blocks and protects target.

EDIT: Note that

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Doc
5 Town

is considered acceptable I think with the addition of one protective role and the possibility for insanity improves odds.

Flaws: Mafia can be wiped out in one Day/Night Cycle. Town can lose lynching right each time.

[Max]

Yep. I wasn't saying it was a new set-up. I was citing it as a part of my "Three-Fold" suggestion.

[Max]

It would need to be reworked majorly to allow larger players. 4 mafia against 16 Town is not balanced for example. 2:2:16 would be almost bastard moddery.

[Max]

Four-Fold Reverse Vengeful Nightless:

2:2:2:2:12.

20 Players

Works on Zorblag Reverse Vengeful system. When a mafia loses its first member they can make a kill. This can trigger another kill. Minimum of 8 Stages (counting venges as a stage)

I haven't run numbers on it. 8 Correct lynches required, with 4 kills in total. (3 Minimum). This game is guaranteed to have 16 Stages. Therefore I propose that only a third of players are required to lynch until 11 players remain.

[Max]

A thought. Aren't games like that conceptually similar to that new perpetual lylo idea? The mafia gets to kill town if there's a dead scum, but otherwise cannot and must rely on lynches.

I can see where you are coming from. However this is based on Zorblag's reverse vengeful. Which as highlighted by Mith is basically tree-stump. I'm adding in the fact the mafia get vengeful kills in a way which adds a layer to the game. And considering how far away the town is from lylo it isn't really true.

[Max]

Tracker Town (Night start)

8 Trackers - One Shot
3 Ninja Trackers (Town) - One Shot
3 Trackers League (Receive List of all Night Actions, including from untrackables)

[Max]

Oh, the mafia are the "trackers league".

[Max]

I think they should. It's at their discretion whether they kill night one. If the ninja trackers don't know who they are then the game opens up substantially. Even if they did a cyclic track night one it would be thwarted by the mafia's "super-tracker" capabilities.

[Max]

Monks and Masons enlarged?

The original was:

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Town

Randomly two sets of mason pairs were distributed. One was "not werewolf" the other was "not mafia". Therefore you could have scum masons.

I think that set-up is broken by a mass claim.

The mason triads are instantly innocent as nobody could fakeclaim that.

Then you have 6 mafia trying to fit into 4 role slots. If they distribute evenly the point to kill each mafiate is above 50:50

SCUM-IDEAL CLAIM LIST:
2 Cops (50% scum)
2 Docs (50% scum)
2 Nurses (50% scum)
5 Vanilla Townies (60% scum)

That's assuming that the scum go where they are best placed and the townies do not lie. With three (possibly more with doc, rbs and both mafias attacking one town) free lynches (killing masons who they cannot mislynch) the town are guaranteed to hit at least one scum. The cop will probably get one investigation through as the mafiates aim to block the doc to leave cop for someone else.

[Max]

Well as actors can't hammer I don't think it can work as only scum could hammer. :/

EDIT: As Actors can only hammer. Only scum could place the other votes.

[Max]

Hi guys,

Any interesting developments in the last year or so?

I see we have a new forum and the open games have been split off...

I made one which had C9 qualities but was two-fold.
It failed. That's all I remember.

[Max]

You're right. It's flawed.
5 Townies might be too many though.

[Max]

Day One - Mafia A enabler lynched...
Night One - There are 5 ways for the other enabler to be removed... 2 Kills from M-B, 1 From M-A and 2 From the disablers.

So, Mafia A could be screwed by night one. Also town can lose lynching correct every time:
Day One - Maf A lynched
Night One - 4 Townies die...
Day Two - Maf B Lynched
Night Two - 4 More Townies Die...

Then whoever wins is based on which Enablers are alive...

[Max]

Better Idea:
If Town Mislynch, Scum Sacrifice a player
If Town Lynch Correctly, Scum kill a townie.

Like My "perpetual mylo". It reduces the swinginess as appropriate.

[Max]

Better Idea:
If Town Mislynch, Scum Sacrifice a player
If Town Lynch Correctly, Scum kill a townie.

Like My "perpetual mylo". It reduces the swinginess as appropriate.

I approve of Max's set-up with the following added rule.

Scum are not allowed to Sacrifice any scum player who hammers a wagon. It prevents the L-1 on Town quickhammer and sacrifice strategy that really helped Scum win in the original iteration.

Agreed

[Max]

I didn't include that when I did my calculations. I'll change it now to account for that.

If town has 11 there's a 60-40 split.
If there are 12 it's a 30-70.

I think 11 is better.
10 is a poor number.

[Max]

That's a bad game...
Scum need to play as normal until mafia has a majority of the town then they lynch the townies, then lynch the jester.

So you're suggesting 2:5 is a balanced set-up.

[Max]

Nightless Traitor

2 Mafiates
1 Traitor
7 Town

The traitor knows the identity of the mafiates. Mafiates have no way of recruiting the traitor.
EDIT: Scum can day talk

4 Mislynches for Mafia Win, 3 Lynches for town win

[Max]

Please read the title...
Please...

[Max]

@CSL: You're right, but I think encouraging bad vig play like that (on the night of MyLo, or the night before LyLo, I think optimal vig play is to NOT shoot) is not something the setup should be aiming to do.

That being said, not having the vig be compulsive isn't an idea I'm wedded to--if it'll help the game get put in the open queue, I'm happy to change it, but given the choice, I'd rather make the vig action elective rather than compulsory.

An elective vig is better, because it can choose not to shoot unless he's pretty sure of who scum is.

At the same time I like the idea that they *must* shoot.
They don't prevent a death altogether they just delay and move the death onto someone else.

[Max]

How do you return results for a roleblocker? I.e.
What order are the roleblocks resolved?

[Max]

Dethy 2.0

7 Inquirers
2 Mafia Goons

Every Inquirer has a different question he asks every night:
"Is player X mafia?"
"Is player X not mafia?"
"Is the answer to the question of player X not dependent on the alignment of the target?"
"Has player X ever targeted me?"
"Did player X target me this night?"
"Has player X ever targeted a scum player?"
"Does the question of player X include a negation?"

I think this is an interesting idea. I suggest you need to find whether any level of scum-hunting is needed and optimal play.

[Max]

Huh. Poorly laid out wiki page, plus:

In order to be eligible for the Open Game list, a setup must fit the Normal Game definition.

is confusing :/

Never mind. Ignore me. I'm usually wrong anyway :S

Oh, that's because the definition of normal changed.

What's not normal in an open game is different to what's not normal in a closed one...

Also, I think normality in opens can be taken quite liberally because you can have altered mechanics (like one where the VTs don't die if lynched)

Double Redirector Mafia

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Double Redirector
n Town

Double Redirector

You are the

Double Redirector

.
During one night of the game you may target two players. These two players will be redirected to be targeting each other.

So, if the Double Redirector picks two scum and one of them performs the kill the other will die.
If the double redirector picks one scum and one town (and selected scum performs the kill) the nominated townie will die.
If the double redirector picks two town, nothing happens (or, they have a nice chat. Thematically who cares, but as far as the game goes they do nothing)

The Double redirector is a very powerful role. Firstly, if two scum are selected as it is unlikely scum will target their own members (though in some cases this may be a valid strategy), one will die at night then one in the next day (Well, soon because there may be a claim/counter claim cycle). If one is selected and the nominated townie dies, it can be considered a weak investigative role.
If nothing happens with two town and there are few mafia remaining they can be confirmed or confirmed to an extent.
Earlier in the game the role is weaker. The role is stronger when two mafiates are alive. There's an incentive to use the role later.

What I don't know is how many town would be needed for it to be balanced

[Max]

You see. Initially I thought that 1 DR might be too heavy without the one shot because scum could easily get screwed over.

Also, the chance of a false negative with the role played properly would be much lower.

Scum -> Townie looking players
DR -> Scummie looking players.

Though it might encourage some interesting night kills.

If the DR was not a one-shot would you feel the mini-size would be appropriate?

[Max]

If it wasn't one-shot, I think that, in theory, it would fit in an otherwise mountainous game nicely balance-wise. In practice, it would be very swingy to the point of being imbalanced. You run the risk of running into the same problem as that of a town roleblocker (that is, the DRed can claim d1 and still catch all of the scum without being killed, because he's redirecting the kills), but at more than double the risk. Perhaps you could include two one-shot DReds in a mini open? I think that would be balanced, but redirection paradoxes would be fairly common.

What if the mafia have a one-shot unredirectable kill to counter that strategy?

EDIT: Though that would weaken the power of the DR.
And the DR would have to be VERY lucky to claim and redirect scum successfully.

[Max]

What if the mafia have a one-shot unredirectable kill to counter that strategy?

So kind of like a one-shot tailor. That wouldn't be bad. As soon as the DRed claims, he's dead without hope.

And the DR would have to be VERY lucky to claim and redirect scum successfully.

Such is swinginess.

If somebody has the skill to make such a play successfully. I think they deserve to win.

[Max]

Mafia's a team game, though. One townie shouldn't be able to pull a win by himself.

Any game with a vig has the same problem.