[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[shaft.ed]

Variation on something I thought up earlier; was the last post in the old thread before it was locked, so I'm sticking it back up here.

Wishing Well Mafia

(3) Mafia Goons

(1) Poisonous Water Carrier (SK)

(1) Healing Water Carrier
(1) Cop
(6) Vanilla Townies

The Mafia have one NK between them. The Cop has one investigation per night. The Townies each have one night-target per night. All Night Actions are compulsive.

The Healing Water Carrier acts as a Doctor protection to anyone who targets him/her for any reason, has no active Night Action, and is vulnerable to NKs.

The Poisonous Water Carrier can choose whether or not to activate each Night. If he/she decides to activate, anyone who targets him/her will die. This death preempts other Night Actions against him/her - so he/she is not vulnerable to NKs.

Day Start, I think.

So if the poisonous water carrier does not activate, they are open for NK's?

I still think this is broken for the SK via choreographed night choices. You need some disincentive for the townies not claiming their night targets in advance.

[shaft.ed]

one way to "fix" it is to have the mafia and SK kills be non-distinguishable. That way the mafia can frame a player as the SK. The only way the town can figure out the difference is to "spend" two players in one night.

I still think it'll be difficult for the SK to win. Basically his addition makes the game tip towards scum pretty handily IMO.

[shaft.ed]

one way to "fix" it is to have the mafia and SK kills be non-distinguishable. That way the mafia can frame a player as the SK. The only way the town can figure out the difference is to "spend" two players in one night.

I still think it'll be difficult for the SK to win. Basically his addition makes the game tip towards scum pretty handily IMO.

I didn't intend the SK and Mafia kills to be distinguishable, but that should certainly be specified. What if I either reduced the Mafia to two goons (now it's probably unbalanced the other way) or made all three goons have to submit a night action (so between the Mafia one kill and two plain night-targets). And perhaps . . . Poison Water Carrier is just plain NK-immune? I'm not sure.

But if everyone has a target you can find the SK via circle targeting.

I think shrinking the game size may be the best idea.
2 Goons
Poison Pillar
Healing Pillar
X Townies

That way any choreographed deaths enter into WIFOM territory and can't be directly used to out the SK. Forget the Cop with so few scum. If you do want the town to have an extra power role I'd make it a tracker that way if they get a "hit" (ie player not targeting ) they can't be sure if they are the non-killing Goon, the Poison Pillar or the Healing Pillar.

[shaft.ed]

How about 6 townies with a night start that way if there are extra dead townies the SK gets them for "free"

[shaft.ed]

Night Start sounds fine. So, now we have:

Wishing Well Mafia

(2) Mafia Goons

(1) Poisonous Water Carrier (SK)

(1) Healing Water Carrier
(1) Tracker
(6) Vanilla Townies

The Mafia have one NK between them. The Tracker has one investigation per night. The Townies each have one night-target per night. All Night Actions are compulsive.

The Healing Water Carrier acts as a Doctor protection to anyone who targets him/her for any reason, has no active Night Action, and is vulnerable to NKs.

The Poisonous Water Carrier can choose whether or not to activate each Night. If he/she decides to activate, anyone who targets him/her will die. He/she is also NK-immune.

All kill flavors are identical.

Night Start.

I'd make the Mafia and Tracker night actions non-compulsive.

If so,

Nominate

[shaft.ed]

Spellbound Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Serial Killer
1 Cop
2 Psychoanalysts
3 Townies

If the Psychoanalysts target the mafia or the serial killer, they will die during the night.

What's a psychoanalyst again? Some kind of weak cop?

[shaft.ed]

Basically. It's weak, but it is still a viable information role.

So essentially it's a game of hypocop

[shaft.ed]

Why?

everyone pretends they are a psychoanalyst and submits their targets ahead of time. If a psychoanalyst dies they've got a good probability of having hit scum. If they don't die due to their power, once a psychoanalyst eventually dies, the town has a list of cleared innocents by going back through their previous claims.

[shaft.ed]

Duh, okay. But that's a problem with the proportions, not the setup, right?

Yeah in a bigger game it may be less of an issue, but you also have the possibility of the psychoanalysts living longer. Thus, In a larger game I think it will be more an issue of the psychoanalysts keeping themselves alive long enough to clear enough townies. Smaller game seems the threat of them outing a scum if they target "properly" is a greater issue.

[shaft.ed]

I would like to run this set-up again, originally run by Pooky

Masons and Mafia

4 Mafia
4 Masons
4 Townies

Nightless
At any point during the day, a member of the Mafia can send in a target for a kill. If the target is a mason, the mason dies. If the target is a townie, the mafia attacker dies.

do scum and masons both get out of thread discussion?

[shaft.ed]

I would like to run this set-up again, originally run by Pooky

Masons and Mafia

4 Mafia
4 Masons
4 Townies

Nightless
At any point during the day, a member of the Mafia can send in a target for a kill. If the target is a mason, the mason dies. If the target is a townie, the mafia attacker dies.

do scum and masons both get out of thread discussion?

Yes, pregame.

so no one talks during the game? Seems weird to bother with Masons then.

I think this'd be more fun if both factions could day talk. Sizes may need to be adjusted however.

[shaft.ed]

Who's the Cop? C9

2 Mafia
1 Death Miller Cop
1 Bodyguard
5 townies

[shaft.ed]

massclaim letter nine

3 mafia goons
2 66% sane cops
4 townies

Simplified

[shaft.ed]

massclaim letter nine

3 mafia goons
2 66% sane cops
4 townies

incorrectly simplified

fixed.

The setup depends upon non-random cop sanity.

I think your just complicating the game to make the cop a fairly powerless role. Though I do realize that as people flip miller/GF the cop becomes far more useful. So it's basically a mechanic that promotes the cops sitting on their results and trying to live to end game?

[shaft.ed]

in most cases end game will be day 2, and it is all about solving the logic puzzle resulting from the inevitable massclaim. No lynch might be optimal for day 1.

Well let's see how this would play out:

I'd say the Miller's have incentive to claim D1, one goon has to counter or else they are cleared so you have:
2 Millers + 1 fake Miller, town has 33% chance of hitting scum. This is slightly worse than a random non-self lynch so the town may not pursue it, however the benefits outweight the very slightly lowered odds. so the town either lynches a Miller (A: 2/3rds) or scum (B: 1/3rd).

A Miller lynch: Scum can't NK the other miller. Town is left now with a 50% odds lynch from the remaining two millers. If the cops survive the night (50% chance), either cop may catch the remaining scum (1/4) outright with a night investigation, or clear a townie/cop (2/4) or accidentally clear a GF (1/4). Town's best play is most likely to decide between the two millers unless a cop hits a guilty, which is a decent probability. If that doesn't pan out there's about a 50% chance they lose here.

B Scum lynch: Town's in much better situation here. The scum is likely forced to kill one of the Millers since they are now confirmed innocents. Cops both survive with investigations because of this each having a 25% chance of picking up the lynched players scum buddy. Town is not likely to lynch an innocent investigation, which may help the GF.

tl;dr: 2/3rds chance scum have a very likely chance of winning
1/3rd chance town are in a very strong position.

Anyway I kinda like the set up, sorry for being an ass. Please add a townie; 6 v 3 is a bit crazy don't you think?

[shaft.ed]

Nope, 6 vs. 3 isn't crazy in this case. It is a logic puzzle. A correct massclaim at the correct time swings the game from being very scum balanced to very town balanced.

Day 1 miller claim + day 1 lynch of claimed miller probably isn't the dominant pro-town tactic. Millers claiming day 1 greatly increases the scum's chances of hitting one of the cops.

But forcing the scum into a D1 miller claim makes the logic puzzle start much earlier (this could be arbitrary). It also gives a narrower pool from which the cops need to investigate and has a huge payoff should the town lynch correctly.

[shaft.ed]

Nope, 6 vs. 3 isn't crazy in this case. It is a logic puzzle. A correct massclaim at the correct time swings the game from being very scum balanced to very town balanced.

Day 1 miller claim + day 1 lynch of claimed miller probably isn't the dominant pro-town tactic. Millers claiming day 1 greatly increases the scum's chances of hitting one of the cops.

But forcing the scum into a D1 miller claim makes the logic puzzle start much earlier (this could be arbitrary). It also gives a narrower pool from which the cops need to investigate and has a huge payoff should the town lynch correctly.

how about we make it a cop head start?

Yes good.

Nominate

really like to see a cop fake a miller claim

[shaft.ed]

Another current problem with the Open Queue is high demand while no one is nominating "tried and true" set ups. So basically less rigorously discussed experimental set ups are getting pushed through to meet demand. For example, Red wire appears to have only had two noms where three was the previous protocol.

I suggest more running of established games and more discussion of new setups.

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1 Doc
5 Townies


Also was JDodge's set up really that broken? The only rule I saw missing was how do you resolve an even numbered lynch. If that was handled then the set up wasn't broken and the scum win, meaning JDodge's breaking strategy actually lost the game for the town.

[shaft.ed]

I actually played in the original two fold mafia. It came down to a 3 player end game. I realize the other multiballs didn't go so well, but I think having the threat of cops and a Doc changes priority of scum NK's away from entirely trying to crosskill.

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 A Cop
1 B Cop
1

CPR

Doc
5 Townies

It adds a layer of wifom, which is always necessary when there are cops and docs

that's too much kiling. Basically the game will come down to whether or not the mafia were crosskilled and have very little to do with day time play.

[shaft.ed]

I was under the impression in twofold there were no cross kills?

it's been played with and without crosskills. IMHO in a 2v2v8 setup the town really can't win without crosskills, at least it's much more difficult. Perhaps give each team a GF that is crosskill immune but not investigation immune?

What about a weak Doc instead of a CPR. That way some info can be gained by said player. And possible extra deaths are limited to one, as in the case for a one shot CPR Doc. (honestly I don't see a one shot CPR docter being much different from a one shot vig)

Caboose, forgot to mention that CopA and CopB are only told they are Cops. Thus the information they gain is much less solid.

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Vengeful

[shaft.ed]

I'd offer the various versions of

Two of Four

up for review. The concept is that there are two power roles in play, randomly chosen from four possible roles (without duplication). It's been played two times in a cop/doc/rb/miller version (one with 9 players, one with 7), both with town wins, and two times in a cop/doc/rb/vanilla version (also one with 9 and one with 7), with one town (9p) and one mafia win. Is the setup too tilted towards town? Is it semi-breakable with a massclaim? Is the setup more balanced with 9 players? The one I played in (Prozac's game) was ultimately won for town by massclaim.

Here are the links:
Two of Four a9
Two of Four a7
Two of Four b7
Two of Four b9

I also ran a Two of Four a7 that ended in a scum win. I think the seven player set up is difficult for town, and nine is possibly difficult for scum.

but I'd like to renominate b9:

2 scum
2 of cop/doc/rb/miller
5 townies

[shaft.ed]

Been thinking about the Two of Four concept. Basically the Miller hurts scum because it makes a confirmed innocent towards end game if not countered. Thus forcing scum into a 50/50 situation at massclaim.

I'm thinking of a 3 of 4, or a 3 of 5 set up:

9 players:
2 scum
7 town

and either three of the following 4:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie

OR three of the following 5:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie
1 Miller

Flipping the RB over to the mafia side helps scum combat the possibility of town power roles and gives a possible solution to follow the cop.

This could still suffer from the situation that happened with Kison in F11 where the mafia RB was the D1 lynch, though a Cop/Doc combo is not gauranteed (or likely) in such an instance.

[shaft.ed]

Who's the Cop? C9

2 Mafia
1 Death Miller Cop
1 Bodyguard
5 townies

This great set up got lost.

Haha, nice one.

Why do you hate on the Death Miller Cops

[shaft.ed]

Hehe. Even less chance for town than standard 2-10 mountainous, since it's a night start.

then 2:11?

[shaft.ed]

Hehe. Even less chance for town than standard 2-10 mountainous, since it's a night start.

then 2:11?

So 2:10 only a player isn't allowed to play?

But the scum get to select which player they'd rather not play against giving discussion a minor jumping off point.

[shaft.ed]

Nominate JK9

I think Eye C9 is too harsh on scum

[shaft.ed]

Nominate JK9

I think Eye C9 is too harsh on scum

Eye C9 has two roles that have basically half the chance of a cop of catching scum, and can't confirm innocents, though they have the advantage over a cop of not both being able to die in one night. So I can't see how it's harder for scum, than, say, California.

You have two roles than have the ability to catch the killing scum. There really isn't any out for scum if they are watched or tracked to a dead body so like you said they are like a non-innocent cop. But only having two scum means that they are at the begining of the game able to conclude people are 50% less likely to be scum and after a single scum is lynched, they can in fact confirm innocents. So if they manage to survive past the first scum lynch, I really don't see any viable way for the scum to win. I think watchers and trackers in small games are more powerful than people realize, especially when the set up confirms that there aren't any extra night actions about for scum to hide behind.

[shaft.ed]

Virtual Simplicity

Based on the setup "Picking Simplicity"

3 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Tracker
1 Jailkeeper
1 Serial Killer (NK Immune?)
13 Townies

<3 the complex role interaction the jailkeeper brings to the setup

Role resolution is JK>RB>Everyone else?
I'd suggest 1 or 2 shot NK immune SK.

[shaft.ed]

If the roleblock and jailkeeper target each other, is the roleblocker protected from nightkills?

(Everything else is straightforward.)

This, They can't be equal.

[shaft.ed]

I'd rather have

2 Mafia

1 Doctor
5 Townies,

because the doctor can produce only innocents when a player is saved while the cop can pinpoint scum.

I think a doctor in such a game is too swingy

[shaft.ed]

you need to turn mafia-raper into some sort of role now

[shaft.ed]

I'd rather have

2 Mafia

1 Doctor
5 Townies,

because the doctor can produce only innocents when a player is saved while the cop can pinpoint scum.

I think a doctor in such a game is too swingy

swingy, to my mind, implies that it can have bad consequences for town as well as scum. That's not true here.

Yeah in my mind a doc does have "bad" consequences for both sides. If the Doc misses his protections he's played as a vanilla townie. Thus you're playing a 2:6 game, which is incredibly unbalanced. If the Doc gets a protect he confirms two gauranteed living innocents and adds an extra lynch to the game with one night. Quite a big swing to me.

While the cop is also swingy (since he can hit goons, he's most likely to get an surviving innocent before claiming near end game, which is fairly balanced.

[shaft.ed]

It's fairly optimal strategy, since Hans is the only power role the Mafia have to worry about killing.

[shaft.ed]

Still like JK9,

I wouldn't play Bugs Bunny, but it doesn't seem inherently broken.

[shaft.ed]

After some feedback and thought I'd like to repropose:

3 of 5

2 scum
7 town

with three of the following roles:
-Cop
-Doc
-Vanilla Townie & Mafia RB
-Vanilla Townie alone
-Miller

I think the extra wiggle room will provide for more flexibility and creativtiy in scum play and can help balance the normally more town favored 2 v 7 w/possible Doc/Cop set up.

[shaft.ed]

Whoever claims to be blocked will be confirmed town.

Mafia can't claim to be blocked day one because they will auto lose.

Don't think mafia will auto-lose. If mafia chooses to not block and then claims to have been blocked, others will think they are confirmed townie (due to the bolded argument above). Perfect WIFOM.

Also, the mafia may choose to not block and still fake-claim an investigation. The game then reduces to the standard Dethy.

what about a mafia power that enables them to control the readout of one players investigation. I know that's not normal but how would that effect the set up?

[shaft.ed]

How about this?
2 Mafia Goons
1 Even Night Cop
1 Odd Night Doctor
5 Vanilla Townies
Day Start

This setup needs a name.

Also, is it balanced?

Alternating C9

[shaft.ed]

Dun like Ack! Hans! Run!

Not sure what the point of the setup is. Also, I don't like roles that require no skill, and Hans is the epitome of such a role. I reckon this comes from differences in our view of the doctor, though.

Bugs Bunny is neat, and I quite like it, but I'd point out that town need two successful protections in order to get an extra day, which is unlikely.

Also, I don't see why no one seconded my nom for friends and enemies. That's such an awesome setup.

Ooo, what if it was:
2 Mafia
1 Hans
1 Hans
5 Townies

Suspense!

I like this better, but two Hans (hansi?) are unbalanced IMO.

[shaft.ed]

Nokill 10

6 townies
1 doctor
1 roleblocker
2 mafia

Day start, mafia must kill every night.

I like this setup, a lot. I considered something like this, but my antipathy for info roles has reached such a noxious point that I'm wary of even roleblockers, these days.

I don't like the compulsory kill for mafia. Withholding a kill may be a valid tactic.

This allow scum to No kill please

[shaft.ed]

Smalltown is not a specific setup.

Fixed.
It's also not normal

[shaft.ed]

A specific Smalltown setup

could

qualify as a semi-open normal.

I don't think Guppy understands how the Open queue works, though.

Well if that's the case I'll put out a template for a Smalltown set up using only "standard" roles:

8 town, 3 mafia, 1 SK (thought 9:3 could also be nice to play with, or maybe even 8:2:2?)

1-vanilla
1-suicide vig
2-anytime masons
1-tracker
1-jailkeeper
1-double voter
1-roleblocker
1-bus driver
1-hider (dies with mafia only)
1-motivator
1-watcher

[shaft.ed]

Track me if you can:

2 trackers
1 doctor
3 townies
2 mafia (one of whom is a roleblocker)
1 serial killer

Mod notes: Day start. SK is not NK-immune and only has 2* kills. RB can't kill and block on the same night.

Suck/good? Yes, no, maybe?

*Insert standard complaint about single scum vs. investigative roles*

[shaft.ed]

Please don't run broken set ups. There are a number of ways to "fix" Texas Justice. Nominate one of those please.

[shaft.ed]

There are a number of ways to "fix" Texas Justice.

Like what?

I don't recall all of the versions that were mulled over, but they included making some scum bulletproof. Making some vigs shoot blanks. You could do it in a Deep South style so that paired killings cannot be performed... It's all in the old Open Queue somewhere.

Or you can revisit the idea here. This is a Discussion Thread afterall

[shaft.ed]

Dear fucking god no.

[shaft.ed]

I don't think the Death Miller Cop thing unbreaks that setup. Cop should still come out D1; Mafia still have the option of countering, but IIRC the correct strategy at that point is to keep both alive and let them "investigate". The Mafia still confirms the real Cop if they kill him. (Someone coming up Mafia on a NK = Cop in that setup.)

But if you have two claimed death miller cops at some point the town has to lynch one or else be end gamed. The mafia NK'ing him would be a rather stupid tactic. The game essentially comes down to 1) town lynching the first scum. 2) picking right between the claimed DMC's.

[shaft.ed]

Nominate Texas Justice with Outlaws

[shaft.ed]

If you pair and shoot you end up with:

All scum paired with town:
2 live townies (one confirmed innocent), 1 live scum (50% win ratio)

Two scum paired with eachother:
Scum win

the breaking strategy will now slightly favor scum and is thus not a breaking strategy.

Circle shoots are just as bad depending on scum line up.

[shaft.ed]

good point

[shaft.ed]

Yes, I'm not about to pretend I can calculate that one.

Mith, back to the Death Miller Cop. I think one of the things you have to ask is why does the scum need to kill the Cop N1. The answer to me is that because if they just let him fester he can clear too many innocents.

In a traditional game with scum countering cop.

If scum let him live N1 they go to day two (assuming partner not lynched day one) with:
2v5. Cop likely has an innocent on a townie. If town lynches from the cop pool this will lead to:
-Lynch actual Cop: an effective guilty on the fake claimed cop + one confirmed innocent.
Day 3 results in the lynch of the fake cop. You go to a 1v2 end game looking for the other goon.
End result ~50% chance town win.
-Lynch fake Cop: Real cop is now confirmed innocent. Player he confirmed in the night is also innocent. Doc can protect cop if still alive meaning one more innocent or guilty wins the game for town.
End result ~100% chance town win.

This whole scenario is avoided if you run the set up with a situation where the lynching for the cop results in an ambiguous situation.

So in Death Miller, it looks like the town will get two chances to lynch the first goon and win with 100% chance. If they lynch the first goon on the third lynch they have a coin flip between the cop claims, but with a whole lot of information to base that decision on.

[shaft.ed]

I think Seraph's proposal is a 2v7 not a 2v5

[shaft.ed]

Third

[shaft.ed]

For reference: do nominated setups now go to the certification group for review?

I think there's eventually going to be two threads. Right now we're just in limbo I guess.

[shaft.ed]

Emp, what mith is saying is a set up is broken when an optimized preset strategy exixst that doesn't involve playing mafia.

[shaft.ed]

Mith's definition is stupid as any game could be played in a way that's not mafia. So every game is broken. So I was right.

You're missing the words "optimized" or "optimal". The point is that there's no reason to play any other way because it lowers the chance of winning.

this

[shaft.ed]

Was reading over the history of the vengeful set up and got to wondering about a 2 v 5 game where the player lynched D1 gets a vengeful kill regardless of alignment and there is no GF. Scum have no NK and wins in a tie.

This means D2 opens with either:
1 v 4 (scum has to survive three lynches)
or
2 v 3 (scum has to survive one lynch, or lose a partner and then survive two lynches)

estimated EV <60 for town and >40 for scum.

Not sure if this has been run or not.

[shaft.ed]

I don't know if my last suggestion go lost because I didn't name it or because it sucked, but to give it a title:

Orphan Vengeful 7p

2 scum
5 town

First player lynched gets a vengeful kill.
Nightless.

[shaft.ed]

Or just

Macho Cop
Village People

I still am fine with Bird C9 however. I think it's more confusing to change it at this point.

[shaft.ed]

Macho Bird C9

[shaft.ed]

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

This looks really good. I'd play this.

That's not balanced. you need to drop a mafia, and probalby a townie.

[shaft.ed]

Guardian most mini normals run 3 v 9 and that's with added power roles.

[shaft.ed]

Guardian by your logic then 4:6 is more balanced than 1:10

[shaft.ed]

Normal 4P

2 Mafia

2 Double Voters

lulz

[shaft.ed]

Vote counts only count people voting.

this.

Vote Count 23

With four alive it will take four votes to lynch

Thok

: Empking, Adel

Adel

: Mr. Flay

Mr. Flay

: Thok

Empking

:

none

Not Voting

:

none

Vote Count 23 would prove that Adel and Empking are not both town.

I think it might be fun.

Did anyone try it on marathon day?

But mafia would have to be retarded to vote together.

[shaft.ed]

With four alive it will take four votes to lynch

I missed the modified lynch threshold

I agree that the game will essentially become "are mafia logged on at the same time as a townie is misvoting?"

What if you add two regular townies?:

2 Goons
2 Double Voters
2 Townies

Same voting mechanics. Now the scum can't autoquicklynch and the town can't vote flicker to determine absolute alignment. The scum has got to try reading the double voters. Town also has a pretty large incentive to keep the double voters hidden as long as possible.

[shaft.ed]

Or you could just y'know not have a weird number of votes needed to lynch.

that doesn't fix anything, in fact it makes it far easier for scum.

[shaft.ed]

Or you could just y'know not have a weird number of votes needed to lynch.

that doesn't fix anything, in fact it makes it far easier for scum.

But the game you're doing is balanced towards town, so balancing it closer to scum is a good thing.

How is a game where a single townie misvote = loss "balanced closer to scum?"

[shaft.ed]

Isn't that Dethy + a Sane Cop?

[shaft.ed]

...i'm going to take it this means it sucks

I think people just aren't fond of Dethy in general. I'm not that familiar with it orit's proper strategy so I didn't say anything...

[shaft.ed]

It's basically end game swingy because if the town is in bad shape the Vampire can try to get recruited making the town in even worse shape. Though making the Vampire "protectable" and having a Doctor around at end game would make for some majorly interesting WIFOM.

[shaft.ed]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

[shaft.ed]

I don't like the Lovers idea. It really doesn't do anything to address the problem IMHO and makes the scum arbitrarily weaker and adds a very different dynamic to the game detracting from the core "Vampire" mechanic is supposed to be focusing on.

I'd "solve" it by giving the scum a finite number of roleblocks that they can use whenever they wish, One attempt per night phase.

[shaft.ed]

I don't like the Lovers idea. It really doesn't do anything to address the problem IMHO and makes the scum arbitrarily weaker and adds a very different dynamic to the game detracting from the core "Vampire" mechanic is supposed to be focusing on.

I'd "solve" it by giving the scum a finite number of roleblocks that they can use whenever they wish, One attempt per night phase.

Lovers comment noted. The roleblocks are meant to be one per night, as a group action.

Yes, I'm saying limit the number. Say two total per game? That adds another layer to the Docs claiming/scum RB'ing etc.

[shaft.ed]

Shrink the set up so it starts closer to end game?

1 Doc, 1 Scum, 1 Vamp, X townies?

[shaft.ed]

meh I don't like town only voting mechanisms confirmed by the mod. Basically each day starts with the town claiming who they voted for. Then by process of elimination across days they can tease out whose votes didn't actually count and were thus scum. It drags gameplay. See Presidentmaker for such a situation.

[shaft.ed]

Masons claiming D3 with 4 dead means a pool of 5 people that will contain all three scum. Even if a mason is killed it leaves 3 scum in 6. Scum would have to kill a mason per night from night 1 or get caught in a small suspect pool.

Your math is wrong. If the scum failed to out a mason on day 1, then failed to NK a mason on night 1, there would be 4 townies / 3 scum / 3 masons left. If again they fail to out or NK a mason, it would be 2 townies / 3 scum / 3 masons. If again they fail to out or NK a mason, and the masons massclaim, the mafia still wins if they convince the masons to lynch the townie.

But what usually happens is 1 or 2 masons either out themselves through day 1-3, or mafia kills them during the night.

You're way off.

It would have to be an extremely good mafia to convince the masons to lynch the remaining townie (or one of the two remaining townies) considering they will form 3 out of a given 4 or 5 players. The odds are strongly in favor of the masons lynching a goon instead. Then the mafia is forced to NK the masons one by one, so unless the one or two townies left are real VIs, or the scumteam is super good, it'll be pretty hard to engineer a mislynch.
The most likely scenario is probably 1 dead mason and 1 dead scum by d3. That leaves 2/2/2. If the masons claim that leaves a pool of 2 out of 4 in mylo, not bad.

funny you would mention adds of lynching a goon in that scenario while ignoring the slim odds of all three masons living that long.

[shaft.ed]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

[shaft.ed]

actually I thinking sticking with this:

Tit for Tat Mafia
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Without the self protect is fine. I think adding the the rest of the backups are not neccessary and no I don't like the idea of giving the mafia an extra kill.

I still think Role Cop and Roleblocker on Mafia side are unbalanced.

What about:

1 Mafia Backup Roleblocker
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop

1 Town Vig
1 Town Nurse
1 Town Deputy
1 Town Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies

Now each side has a killing power (vig vs. mafia kill). And Town starts with 2 power roles and 2 backups, while mafia has 2 power roles and a backup. Problem here I guess is a mafia version of "follow the cop."

[shaft.ed]

I like the JK idea. Makes the role more useful to mafia and less predictable than "protect [insert scumbuddy]". Also prevents follow the cop if both roles end up in town hands. I'd simplify it by just removing the RB altogether.

Mafia:
Mafia Jailkeeper
Mafia Deputy
Mafia Goon

Town:
(Role) Cop
Vig
Backup JK
6 townies

[shaft.ed]

I like the "only if they are sole survivors" rule personally.

But that's just because I'm too lazy to think of the repercussions and so I just split the difference....Oh my god. I'm Joe Lieberman!!!!

[shaft.ed]

ABR I think the last two roles only work if Power Role 1 is forced to be a vig. 50% chance they're simply a cop, and 50% chance they're a partial cop.

[shaft.ed]

ABR I think the last two roles only work if Power Role 1 is forced to be a vig. 50% chance they're simply a cop, and 50% chance they're a partial cop.

Not quite. The goons choose who sends the kill, and that affects the detective's or the psychologist's results.

Woops, didn't read the part after the comma in the psychologist role. Reading is tech. I like the duality, but do you really want the functionality of mafia strategy to come down to a coin flip like that?

[shaft.ed]

Maybe I'm reading these wrong, but why would a mentor even want to recruit an apprentice?

It's not optional

[shaft.ed]

I think a NK + Investigation immune SK could create some interesting paranoia in an Open game so how about a set up with one?

Something like:

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Doc
1 Godfather

1 Double Immune SK

1 Cop
1 Bulletproof townie
1 Jailkeeper
1 Vigilante
4 VT

Just a rough start

[shaft.ed]

what if a hunter shoots a hunter?

[shaft.ed]

All NK's happen simultaneously, so a hunter who is killed by the mafia or another hunter could use their ability on that night.

That's what happens shaft.ed :p

i mean towards their wincon. Only town and mafia are listed.

[shaft.ed]

should now be a night start.

why?

To avoid Happily ever After.

Happily ever after is easily avoided with a 50% No Lynch policy.