Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[springlullaby]

Post.

[springlullaby]

Alright.

Vote ectomancer.

Let's lynch him and call it a day.

[springlullaby]

Vote ectomancer

My vote is not random either.

[springlullaby]

Interesting. Except for

maybe

Zer0ph34r ,and Im not certain there, you are the only player that I'm familiar with...

Don't want to ask why my vote is not random?

Prefer to cast soft doubt on me instead?

[springlullaby]

Unvote

Just realized that was the 4th vote on spring, thought it was the 3rd. i r gud at math.

FOS: Springlullaby, though

FOS JereIC

Why pussy out of voting me?

What is the difference between being the third and the fourth on a wagon?

[springlullaby]

Interesting. Except for

maybe

Zer0ph34r ,and Im not certain there, you are the only player that I'm familiar with...

Don't want to ask why my vote is not random?

Prefer to cast soft doubt on me instead?

Nope, I figured I would wait and see how these others reacted to your vote. I would ask later, but now is too early to spoil the game by asking you directly.

Is your vote without reason anything but soft doubt? Let's not be hypocritical.

Good comeback I think. Though the emphasis in my last was not on the 'soft doubt' part. But rather that you choose to suggest that my vote was scummy over asking me why I voted you. But I suppose your reply covers it.

[springlullaby]

FOS JereIC

Why pussy out of voting me?

What is the difference between being the third and the fourth on a wagon?

I'm not comfortable putting anybody over halfway to a lynch unless I intend to actually lynch them. Right now I just want an explanation. Why are you voting for Ectomancer?

I'm voting Ectomancer now because in the recent game I shared with him and in which he was town he was it seems to me more talk, less vote at this stage of the game. But you know what, I've decide to let that rest for now, and let him do his thing

My first vote on him was random, and the jest was jest.

[springlullaby]

PerAdua, your assessment of Ectomancer's play so far please.

[springlullaby]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

Quitting the spotlight so soon? I thought you wanted it?

I'm neither convince by Perdua not do I like Zwet's 'lighten up' reply to Ectomancer.

I agree with the assessment of Zero's post by Sipylus.

[springlullaby]

Anyway, I'm more concerned with JereIC at the moment. I don't get why he was so worried about casting a 4th vote on someone. Lynch -3 really isn't that bad is it?

I don't understand one why he cast the vote in the first place, and two how he didn't realize that springlullaby had 3 votes on her.

Just find it strange.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't like to put people over halfway to a lynch unless I actually intend for them to get lynched. If you've seen speed lynches on page 2, you'll know where my caution is coming from. Counting the votes is simply my screw up - I didn't see Zerophear's vote in post # 19.

Anyway, this line in Sipylus's post is bugging me:

...in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez...

I don't understand how you're identifying these people. If it's for the large amount of wheat, then why aren't Beyond_Birthday or Springlullaby included? Why are you, since you said you didn't have any content posts?

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

[springlullaby]

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

How is scummy activity not good news?

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

[springlullaby]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero

Springlullaby: What don't you like? I was joking about not knowing what's going on, and Ecto thought I meant it, so I set him straight.

Your comment 'sheesh, lighten up' may denotes that you do not assign possibly malicious purpose to Ectomancer's line of questioning at all. Which I don't like.

[springlullaby]

If you have a better topic of discuss, by all mean point to it.

In meantime, please answer.

[springlullaby]

*ion

[springlullaby]

Ellipses in game aggravates me. What exactly are you guys implying?

JereIC, wanna answer my questions?

[springlullaby]

Maybe you just missed the thread of conversation Spring.

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero
<snip>

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

That's because the answers to that kind of question are usually learned in newbie games. In other games, that question is likely to get you a nice fat bandwagon. (Oh, and Zwet, there is no way he posted that to look like he was posting something meaningful. That was the opposite of meaningful)


Just sayin...

The first time you read this, you responded to the portion of the quote that I snipped. I think you must have missed it because you didn't comment on Zero's statement at all, then subsequently told JereIC that if he had a better topic of discussion, point to it.

I'm not sure what you mean here, please reformulate. Is there a question inside the above, at all?

[springlullaby]

JereIC, wanna answer my questions?

Not really. Those questions are a distraction from what we should be discussing - who's scum or not. But, briefly:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

Not many.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

Not very. The speedlynches I've seen always depend more on townies being reckless rather than scum instigating it.

How is scummy activity not good news?

Scummy activity is good news - but as I said, speedlynches are more about recklessness than scumminess, so speedlynches aren't good news.

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

I am familiar with it. From my experience, it's not a very good line of argument.

Now, briefly, can you tell me why you want to discuss speedlynches?

I don't particularly want to discuss speedlynch, I just want to see how people respond to the questions.

But what has motivated me to ask in the first place is my not liking your unvote of me and your subsequent reply when I called you on it.

As I see it, there was in reality very low danger of my getting speedlynched on page 2. And I think that had it happened, it would have been a pretty good thing because, in the specific frame of this game, I was not nearly scummy enough to warrant a lynch at the time of your unvote.

This make me think that your justification of your unvote, namely wanting to avoid a speedlynch, is pretty bunk. And kinda the worse possible answer you could have found in a sea of possibility.

[springlullaby]

@ Ectomancer: I see now. I was thrown off by you saying 'I think you missed etc.', kinda unusual to see people interpreting other people to such a degree.

I'm still not liking JereIC, has actually contributed nothing now that the game is under way bar from a vague question about what I think of Zero. I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious. I'm kind ambivalent concerning Zero, could be awkward town or awkward scum at this point.

So Zero, what do you think of the game so far?

[springlullaby]

*conscious

[springlullaby]

This is looking so bad, I kind of have difficulty believing in it.

Zero, no opinion on anyone at all?

[springlullaby]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

[springlullaby]

Skillit, Nuwen, what do you think of the game?

Right now I have JereIC down as scum and Zero down as crapshoot.

[springlullaby]

It is a terrible feeling when people agrees with you and you are distrusting because of the fear of being played.

Zero, you should claim now.

[springlullaby]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

[springlullaby]

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

[springlullaby]

Honestly, the only person I think he can implicate now is Spring. Mostly thinking of how he voted for her at the random stage, how she hasn't found him acting weird, and how she seems to be helping him out now. If he's scum, I think all that indicates she's scum too. If not, she still may be scum, but we can have a lot more fruitful day tomorrow.

This passage is what bad arguments is made of,

1) Here you seems to say that you want to lynch Zero to implicate me, that just doesn't compute.

2) Please back up words like 'she seems to be helping him out', and 'she hasn't found him acting weird'.

[springlullaby]

2) Please back up words like 'she seems to be helping him out', and 'she hasn't found him acting weird'.

In posts 135 and 144 you said you're ambivalent about Zero without commenting on the actual case against him.

In post 78 Sipylus made his case against Zero. In post 83 you started the discussion of speedlynches, and in 91, 97, and 104 demanded that everyone answer questions about speedlynches - right as the discussion about Zero was heating up. In 161 you told him to claim, then in 177 said you were up to lynch him but that we should wait a day so you could make a post. However, your posts today weren't about his case, it was about your case against me. That's twice you've tried to sidetrack the discussion from Zero to something else.

Then I'll point to you that I've made my mind about Zero clear enough and discussed him as much as you did.
Tell me, what do you want to discuss about Zero?

Then tell me, what make you so sure Zero is scum to the point that you think discussing anything else is scummy?

[springlullaby]

You haven't made your opinion clear at all. You said yesterday you were up for lynching Zero, but you haven't voted for him. You say it's a crapshoot as to whether he's scum, but don't explain why the case is weak. You haven't commented on Nuwen's analysis, which could support your case against me pretty well, but would require you to talk about Zero.

1. He was at L1, I didn't want to hammer because there were other things I wanted to comment on.
2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

My point's not just about content - your timing and apparent unwillingness to discuss Zero, even when it's in your interest, are suspect. That's what makes it look like you're trying to cover for him while distancing yourself from him, and if he turns out to be scummy, that's going to make you look scummy too.

[/quote]

1. Apparent willingness to discuss Zero, where? I said everything that there is to say about him already. Please point out where you discussed him in any detail.

2. What you say here would be remotely workable only if Zero is scum. Which led me to the question, what make you so sure Zero is scum?

___________________

Ok, I've got enough I think. I decided that I'm not lynching Zero.

Vote JereIC

: circular logic, generalities sprouting, bad arguments. See my discussion vs him.

I think it's a much better vote than Zero who has a higher chance of being just an idiot.

[springlullaby]

I'm not getting why you are voting me Beyond, please explain better.

[springlullaby]

Zachrulez, explain why you think JereIC points are good.

[springlullaby]

1. Explain what 'nice' has to do with anything.

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

3. You said that you didn't believe JereIC's point were scummy, as per 2, I expect you to explain why you don't find my arguments convincing.

[springlullaby]

1. Explain what 'nice' has to do with anything.

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

3. You said that you didn't believe JereIC's point were scummy, as per 2, I expect you to explain why you don't find my arguments convincing.

1. Has to do with asking me politely in a way that's more likely to make me want to respond. Some people would call it manners.

2. Well that's great. Would you care to point out the exact posts or quotes, or do you want me to struggle to look through and find these explanations, so that when I fumble with trying to find them, you can find me scummy too?

3. Am I supposed to find your arguments convincing? I must have missed the rule that said that was a requirement to play this game.

1. If you have a problem with my 'manners' or lack thereof, do take your complaints to the mod and I will respect arbitrage if any. As far I'm concerned, I do not believe I have been excessive in any way toward you. If you do not wish to take your complaints to the mod, I expect this line of discussion to be dropped, and am willing to pretend it wasn't raised in the first place.

2. Yes, I expect you to struggle and find them, it's your job. I will tell you if I think you to be scummy when you have done so.

3. I do not require of you to find my argument convincing, however I asked you to demonstrate why you think they are not and am expecting an answer.

[springlullaby]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

Now... you're next post.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

So you found JereIC scummy, but you were up to lynching Zero?

It seems to me that your vote against him was premeditated and that you were LYING about being up to lynching Zero.

Hmmmm...

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

The 'premedited' argument is an interesting attack. It is the same kind of argument that JereIC has used, and scummy in the same way because my alleged refusal to lynch Zero could possibly be considered scummy only if Zero were scum. This makes me ask the same question that I have asked of JereIC: what make you so sure Zero is scum?

[springlullaby]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

Is this why he's scummy?

Why is it a crappy argument?

It is a crappy argument because it rest on the supposition that I genuinely wanted to 'speedlynch' Ectomancer.

Accusation to which I have already answered and countered easily: I already stated that I was not.

It is further scummy because the supporting argument he presents to that accusation is very flimsy: I have already explained the reasoning behind my 'speedlynches are good for town' comment, and JereIC has yet to come up with a convincing rejoinder demonstrating why I am wrong.

As some would say, this entire argument is pure conjecture, and not a very good one at that.

[springlullaby]

Zachrulez, explain why you think JereIC points are good.

1. Try asking me nicely this time.

2. Explain why you think his points are scummy.

3. Tell me where you saw the word good in my post about his points.

1. Explain what 'nice' has to do with anything.

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

3. You said that you didn't believe JereIC's point were scummy, as per 2, I expect you to explain why you don't find my arguments convincing.

Jesus Christ, Mary, and the other guy. Stop this type of question-counterquestion play. It's not productive, cute, or clever. One doesn't always need to be on the questioning side to have a one-up in conversation. One doesn't always

need

a one-up in conversation.

If someone asks a question that you already answered, provide links and quotes. He or she is obviously having a hard time finding the answer, which requires clarity from the respondent. Neither of you are extracting or contributing useful information by repeatedly head-butting the other with senseless semantic quibbles.

Don't be jealous, I promise I'll headbutt with you too if I see fit.

Now seriously, is there something in there which warrants an answer or was that a pure hissy fit moment?

[springlullaby]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

Now... you're next post.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

So you found JereIC scummy, but you were up to lynching Zero?

It seems to me that your vote against him was premeditated and that you were LYING about being up to lynching Zero.

Hmmmm...

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

The 'premedited' argument is an interesting attack. It is the same kind of argument that JereIC has used, and scummy in the same way because my alleged refusal to lynch Zero could possibly be considered scummy only if Zero were scum. This makes me ask the same question that I have asked of JereIC: what make you so sure Zero is scum?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=126

Add to that his refusal to acknowledge anyone who has actually BOTHERED to answer his question and his continued assertions that no one has...

I'm as sure as you can get on day 1. A lot more sure than I am about your alignment or JereIC's one way or another.

I do see why people are voting Zero, but there are also things I do not like about his wagon.
- the fact that he has played so very un-apologetically badly actually augment the risk of him being terrible town in my eyes
- the fact that the wagon was so linear, it seems very much too easy
- the fact that skillit, our resident lurker, has not reacted to it on way or another

These are factors which make me doubt about Zero, and I want to know why you, amonst others, do not seem to consider them. What do you say?

You know you didn't want to speedlynch Ecto, but everyone else... it depends on believing you when you say it.

I did not agree with your "speedlynches are good for town" comment, or your stated assessment of how they could be... but that's fine, we don't have to think the same way about that.

His case lacks proof, and I have never in any way said it was good. Notice that I'm more interested in your reactions and attacks of him and am more investigating right now rather then leaping to a conclusion.

You can argue his case is bad. You can argue that him believing you are scum based on whether or not Zero is scum is just downright bad play, but I can't really see how you can argue that it's blatantly scummy.

What else do you propose anyone base their arguments on if not on bad arguments and bad play?

Wait a minute...

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

The 'premedited' argument is an interesting attack. It is the same kind of argument that JereIC has used, and scummy in the same way because my alleged refusal to lynch Zero could possibly be considered scummy only if Zero were scum. This makes me ask the same question that I have asked of JereIC: what make you so sure Zero is scum?

You haven't made your opinion clear at all. You said yesterday you were up for lynching Zero, but you haven't voted for him. You say it's a crapshoot as to whether he's scum, but don't explain why the case is weak. You haven't commented on Nuwen's analysis, which could support your case against me pretty well, but would require you to talk about Zero.

1. He was at L1, I didn't want to hammer because there were other things I wanted to comment on.
2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

My point's not just about content - your timing and apparent unwillingness to discuss Zero, even when it's in your interest, are suspect. That's what makes it look like you're trying to cover for him while distancing yourself from him, and if he turns out to be scummy, that's going to make you look scummy too.

1. Apparent willingness to discuss Zero, where? I said everything that there is to say about him already. Please point out where you discussed him in any detail.

2. What you say here would be remotely workable only if Zero is scum. Which led me to the question, what make you so sure Zero is scum?

___________________

Ok, I've got enough I think. I decided that I'm not lynching Zero.

Vote JereIC

: circular logic, generalities sprouting, bad arguments. See my discussion vs him.

I think it's a much better vote than Zero who has a higher chance of being just an idiot.

Pay close attention to the bolded portion.

So which is it Spring? Are you still up to lynching Zero, or have you decided, as you stated in 196 that you are not lynching Zero?

This does looks contradictory, but believe it or not, my 210 was written in haste and badly formulated. What I meant by it was that I was not strictly opposed to a Zero lynch as opposed to wanting to lynch him myself, preffering a JereIC lynch myself.

[springlullaby]

Spring has allowed a certain amount of chaos then cleared it up later in an out-of-the-box revelation. However, one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen. In a way, she is under the radar while being perfectly active.

As JereIC points out, Spring is attempting to hold off the lynch for Zero despite being all for the lycnh. Why? For favoritism of more discussion. However, this reason doesn't hold any water. While I now disaagree with a Zero lynch due to Nuwen's post, I think that allowing him to be lynched would have revealed more and led to better discussion day 2 for more accurate hunting. So, concluding that likely: Zer0 is town aligned; then I can logically percieve the idea that Spring, as scum, did not want to be associated with the lynching vote.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, as I posted in a very weary state...

This is a bad circular argument. Here you propose to justify your vote on me by an assumption of Zero's alignment, which you again propose to justify based on conjucture as to the motivation of my actions coming from scum.

I also don't like your first paragraph, it is in my opinion saying very much of nothing. Tell me, don't you think that "one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen." can be said about anyone a propos anything?

[springlullaby]

2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

Anti-town argument, if not scummy. No one appreciates being caught in LILO with an erratic, inexperienced townie -

but it's better than losing

. Cannibalizing "distracting" players who are little more than a "crapshoot" at being scum does nothing for town. This sounds like a thinly-veiled attempt to get Zero's (or any hapless townie's) wagon started up in earnest. A desire to lynch someone for

being town, albeit bad town

, is suspect.

1. I don't know if you realize you are actually saying the same things as I. IMO the best argument that can be made in the cases such as Zero is that lynching them will rid town of the distraction, which isn't to say that it makes for an ideal lynch. I thought my meaning was clear given the contest of my deciding to not lynch Zero.

2. Here you seems to suggest that my intention with that comment may have been to start a wagon on Zero 'in earnest', only the wagon didn't wait for me to make that comment.

[springlullaby]

Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead.

I don't think I qualify for the adjective 'nonexistent' at any point in this game. As to your scumbuddy theory thing, I think that kinda argument is getting old. So in your mind the only explanation to my not wanting to jump on the Zero wagon is my being scum?

Skillit has to do with it that the default alignment I assign to lurker is scum, no excuses, and I think that for lurkers to not comment on a wagon is always ominous of a bad wagon.

[springlullaby]

Spring 2. WHAA??

what what?

[springlullaby]

Numbers are mine:
1. Oh? I was completely unaware.
2. I justify my vote on the basis that you didn't want to lynch Zero, regardless of his alignment, solely on the basis of discussing more today. Well, you proposed the argument that a speedlynch is good for town as it provides a ton of information. However, a regular lynch with decent discussion must be the iceberg to sink us! What was so important it couldn't have waited? The only person who has any right in claiming that their lack of a hammer vote on Zero are people who DID NOT think he was scummy. (I am pretty sure that is Nuwen, and that's about it.)
3. Of course my vote is based on the conjecture that you're scum. If you were not scum, I wouldn't vote you.

2. This is strawman because you are playing off the idea that I have said speedlynch are good, I can't consider that more discussion may be good also.

3. No, you are basing your vote on the conjecture of Zero being town, which you justify by my defending him. This is what circular logic are made of.

1. I am not saying anything. I am saying that you are trying to offer opinion and lead town to your way of thinking while at the same time appearing as someone who has played little part in the actual decisions of town.
2. No, the motivation of a player, particularly the town aligned, should be self evident. I [we the town] are not here for personal preservation, but are here to play to the best of our ability to scumhunt and demonstrate a useful opinion so that if/when we die, the remaining town can make a more educated guess on who is scum and better trust/distrust arguments offered by the deceased players. Does this mean look scummy and throw our lives away? No. But is does mean that scum hunt>looking protown.

In addition, after rereading a bit, I think you have been strawmanning JereIC (or at least, been excessive in forcing him to explain himself.) Either you are setting him up, or you are scum with him.

I dunno, might be reading too far into JereIC there, but it doesn't help make you look any better.

1. Yes, and this is a bad argument because you do not propose any in thread evidence to back your argument, the consequence of which is that it could be said of anyone a propos anything.
2. What is this paragraph in aid of? How is it relevant to the argument? I don't see how it concerns me in anyway.

Now, please evidence in which instance you think I have strawmanned JereIC.

[springlullaby]

By the way, I support an extension.

[springlullaby]

Spring, you mention your default alignment for lurkers is scum. Does that not apply to active lurkers like Zero?

I forgot to answer that.

Active lurking is a fault, but the scumminess in active lurking is in the deception of contribution scum may want to create by constantly posting, while the content of the posts have no value. I feel that active lurking is not the correct term to describe Zero, as I do not detect deception from him. Of course this is wifom, especially since people have made know that he just may be too scummy to be scum, and his latest contribution is kinda playing into the expectations, but I'm going with it now

[springlullaby]

Zero, are you going to play this game or not? Because if you are not, I think you need to be replaced right now.

[springlullaby]

Unvote, vote Zero

[springlullaby]

Come on, hammer. I'm tired of this too.

[springlullaby]

Ectomancer, hammer please and get this over with. There is no chance in hell now for another wagon to take up with Zero sitting in the middle of the room.

[springlullaby]

Lovely. Zero's wagon is virtually worthless, as his actions were scummy enough to warrant genuine pro-town scathe. Splicing pro-town intent versus convenient scum propulsion will be difficult.

Vote: springlullaby

- Far too much emphasis on wagoning Jere after Zero's clean lynch was spoiled by multiplayer support of the "noob" rationale, which proved to be correct. The ensuing argument between her and Zach is fluff; I'm inclined to believe that if spring flips scum, Zach will as well after diverting attention away from her mismatched voting on Zero/Jere.

Let's see, the reason you are voting me are:

1. Wagonning Jere "after the Zero wagon was spoilt"?
I never supported it in the first place.

2. Argument between Zach and myself is fluff?
How do you define fluff? On my part, I think it was useful for me to gain a better read of Zach.

I think your attack stand on very shaky grounds.

Now, please state who you think is scum beside me.

[springlullaby]

Aha! Springlullaby is scum!

That just sounds too saucy to be true.


---------------------------------------------------

Right now I'm kinda puzzled by the quality of the argument, or lack thereof, directed at me and think it quite scummy but I'm also thinking 'man scum can't be that bad at it, can they'.

[springlullaby]

Ectomancer, what do you think of Nuwem associating her name with yours in questioning zwet?

[springlullaby]

I'm looking at this day and founding it depressing.

Zwet, who do you think is scum beside me?


It is almost certain I'm voting zwet today. Still, no hurry.

[springlullaby]

I don't think you are a fool, I think you are more likely to be really bad scum at this point. Because you'd have to be a really big fool if you came up with that little narrative while being town.

I'm also content to see other people's reaction to you actually.

[springlullaby]

I suppose you might call it an overeager conjecture, but do you admit that it's possible? The very fact that scum wouldn't have killed JereIC might have made Spring kill him out of necessity, as I outlined in my case. The thing is, now that I have a case on Spring, Spring is completely disregarding it, and the first thing Spring said when I was discussing the possibilities was a completely flippant, pointless remark, which solidifies my theory, at least in my eyes.

I'm curious, what wouldn't solidify your theory "at least in your eyes"?

[springlullaby]

If you had said something intelligent and useful to refute my statements.

Your answer may sounds relevant here, but it is in fact generic nothingness. Tell me can you say what you think an "intelligent and useful" statement would have been and why?

Then I'll tell you my silence was both intelligent and useful.

@Ectomancer, I'd like to know precisely what you mean in your last post.

[springlullaby]

Yeah.

Vote zwet

[springlullaby]

Preview instead of submit.

Vote zwet

Dear Zwet, I'll walk into it: your case is wifom and full of poop.

But that's not actually the scummiest thing about it. The fact that it is a set up which would make me look bad (in theory anyway) no matter how I respond is.

The fact that you can't even come up with an intelligent answer to my asking you if there was something that I could have said that would have changed your mind tells me that it wasn't a gambit on your part to 'get reaction'.

The fact that you said that my non answer allegedly 'confirmed me as scum in your eyes' tells me that you are very unlikely to be anykind of cop with shoddy sanity.

[springlullaby]

Interesting.

[springlullaby]

Pablo, so, what was that with you voting BB yesterday?

[springlullaby]

Brace yourselves. I tried to keep it short.

Spring was the first to ping my scumdar starting in post 153 when she lists jer as her top scum and calls zero a "crapshoot" but doesn't vote jer, and instead tells zero to claim a few posts later and says she's "up for" a zero lynch. She gave her excuses for this later when called out for it, but I still think it's scummy to be "up for" the lynch of someone you think is town. Only scum wants townies dead, no matter how annoying and distracting they are.

2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

Anti-town argument, if not scummy. No one appreciates being caught in LILO with an erratic, inexperienced townie - but it's better than losing. Cannibalizing "distracting" players who are little more than a "crapshoot" at being scum does nothing for town. This sounds like a thinly-veiled attempt to get Zero's (or any hapless townie's) wagon started up in earnest. A desire to lynch someone for being town, albeit bad town, is suspect.

QFT

1. Your fact are false, I did vote JereIC.
2. I already answered to Nuwen's post you quoted above, it was misreading on Nuwen's part. Here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#1473109

spring

- don't like how sure she seemed that zero was town, nor the fact that she wanted to lynch him anyway

I was not "sure" that Zero was town. But pretty convinced he was, yes. How? Well, he looked like it. A village idiot that is, he made no sense whatsoever as scum. I lynched him because he claimed scum, even when you are damn sure about your read, you aren't going to stick up your neck for that on the off chance you're wrong.

[springlullaby]

Vote: Sipylus

2 post total, 1 random vote, 1 "content" analysis.

[springlullaby]

You know what, the modding is really crap. Upon verification Sypilus hasn't posted in like more than 2 months.

FOS ZACHRULEZ

For suggesting to let modkill happen on a blatant flaker.

MOD: I object to your modding, finding replacements and prodding inactive players is your job. If you do not replace inactive players you can count me out of this game.

[springlullaby]

Big fat meaningless FoS at Spring: While it doesn't clear Setael, I am curious as to why you think that a complete absence transfers into that player equalling scum. He could be scum with a partner doing all the work, sure, but I don't see your logical follow through at all.

If you are talking about Sypilus, I assume that he is town. Because I assume that a mod would always replace scum first. Because if else it is totally unfair to town. And because it is easier to forget about a townie than one of your active night roles when you are a mod.

And that is exactly why Zach is suspicious.

Vote: Springlullaby

I object to your lurker hunting. Why waste our time doing it when he will more than likely be mod killed anyway?

This post suggest that Zach was aware Sipylus was a flaker. (I was not. Reviewing people posts, I just assumed that Sipylus had picked up prods but was lurking since he was still in the game, which would be way scummy indeed.) But even with this knowledge Zach did not protest the fact that Sipylus was going to be modkilled.

And being content with letting modkill happen on a most probably town player when it's blatantly not town's fault if some players flake is just crappy and scummy.

And, Zach, as for you having 'no control over' the situation, it's totally bull, you have the exact same amount control over the situation than I do, which is you can protest it.

[springlullaby]

BTW I'm not going to play further before the mod respond.

And I'm totally ready to tank it if replacement is not found.

[springlullaby]

For Pete sake Wolfblizer too had his last post on this site more than 1 month ago.
Even with the most lenient activity requirement he should have been replaced already.

[springlullaby]

Alright, no matter the outcome, I'm not counting this game in my stats on account of townsuck and mod failure.

Vote Beyond_Birthday

For "not wanting to anger the mod". Only scum would care about not ending a game that sucks so much.