Newbie 2147 - Tiny Desserts | Game Over

[Deltabreedy]

I don't feel like I have much to add after the responses to my last post, but here are a couple of thoughts that sum up what has been asked of me:

I guess from where I'm sat it does feel like there is a strong defensiveness coming from both Delta and Crepe since Gozo has called them out. It felt to me like Gozo was more willing to die to 'clear worlds' but of course that can always be a double bluff, but tbh it read sincere to me.

In terms of why I think Delta or Crepe flip would be useful, it's because we have little to no information, other than the way people are reading. To me, the tone of both of your posts has been slightly weird, it has at times come across quite defensive, whilst also attacking on Gozo at the same time for calling you out on certain things.

To me, learning about your alignment would be information in itself and seems like the only thing we have right now.

As much as I do feel that the quieter players might be a place to look, I'd have nothing to differentiate between them.

What exactly did Gozo call me out on, and where exactly was I 'Defensive'?
Quote the bits, please.

I'm not gonna go through and quote as there has been so much dialogue between yourself, Crepe and Gozo. All I'll say is that the tone from both yourself and Crepeguy has just come across as defensive and it feels a bit 2 on 1, and there hasn't really been a good reason given.

To be honest, I'm not enjoying this confrontation from you, merely for stating my opinion which I am entitled to. It feels like every time anyone gives their own opinion they need to back it up with quotes, but you are entitled to think whatever you think without substance.

I kind of have to insist that you back up where I'm being defensive. If you're not willing to stand by what you say and explain it then how am I supposed to engage with it in good faith?

I'm happy to work with people who want to work with me, but I won't not hold people to justifying what they say like ever. If you can point out where I've made a single point without substance, I'll clarify my position for you.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't feel like I have much to add after the responses to my last post, but here are a couple of thoughts that sum up what has been asked of me:

I guess from where I'm sat it does feel like there is a strong defensiveness coming from both Delta and Crepe since Gozo has called them out. It felt to me like Gozo was more willing to die to 'clear worlds' but of course that can always be a double bluff, but tbh it read sincere to me.

In terms of why I think Delta or Crepe flip would be useful, it's because we have little to no information, other than the way people are reading. To me, the tone of both of your posts has been slightly weird, it has at times come across quite defensive, whilst also attacking on Gozo at the same time for calling you out on certain things.

To me, learning about your alignment would be information in itself and seems like the only thing we have right now.

As much as I do feel that the quieter players might be a place to look, I'd have nothing to differentiate between them.

What exactly did Gozo call me out on, and where exactly was I 'Defensive'?
Quote the bits, please.

I'm not gonna go through and quote as there has been so much dialogue between yourself, Crepe and Gozo. All I'll say is that the tone from both yourself and Crepeguy has just come across as defensive and it feels a bit 2 on 1, and there hasn't really been a good reason given.

To be honest, I'm not enjoying this confrontation from you, merely for stating my opinion which I am entitled to. It feels like every time anyone gives their own opinion they need to back it up with quotes, but you are entitled to think whatever you think without substance.

Haha fair take. Luciaaa reading good to me. No benefit to weighing in here like this if she was mafia.

If I were to take a perhaps uncharitable translation of this post, it'd read:
"I'm not going to back up my opinion because it's too much reading" (8 pages)
"It's all just vibes" (this would be fair enough)

Where's the benefit to town here?

[Deltabreedy]

I'm now reasonably confident that 1 of Gozo or Crepe is scum. I don't think this is TvT.

[Luciaaaa]

Yeah, I've realised this definitely isn't the game for me. Feels far too personal. Vote me out!

UNVOTE: Deltabreedy
VOTE: Luciaaaa

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah, I've realised this definitely isn't the game for me. Feels far too personal. Vote me out!

UNVOTE: Deltabreedy
VOTE: Luciaaaa

No no, none of this is personal at all and I hope I can help you not feel this way. For me, I'm asking for the quotations to get a better sense of your thoughts rather than anything else.

I'd ask that you unvote yourself as a minimum, maybe take a few hours away and then come back. I'll engage with you in good faith.

[Priest]

1.

Why did you want to know other people's opinions on Crepe?

2.

Given you're reticent about sharing your own?

1. So I can read people.
2. So I can better read people.

Fair?

[Luciaaaa]

Yeah, I've realised this definitely isn't the game for me. Feels far too personal. Vote me out!

UNVOTE: Deltabreedy
VOTE: Luciaaaa

No no, none of this is personal at all and I hope I can help you not feel this way. For me, I'm asking for the quotations to get a better sense of your thoughts rather than anything else.

I'd ask that you unvote yourself as a minimum, maybe take a few hours away and then come back. I'll engage with you in good faith.

I'll unvote myself for now. But I'm certainly not having a good time.

UNVOTE: Luciaaaa

I'll try again to explain my position. @Delta, you didn't really say anything defensive yourself. I guess it was moreso that it felt Crepe was defending you being a team, which was something that Gozo said that maybe made some sense to me. Given there was no infomation to go off of, it felt to me like that was the strongest lead I had. Sometimes it just comes down to vibes I guess, and I vibed more with what Gozo was saying. And that kinda brought you into sus for me just by association.

I think what I'm struggling with right now is it feels like you can't have a social read or opinion or have 'vibes' without being attacked for it. Which I'm struggling with on a personal level. I'm used to having information in games to go off of, which makes it less about the person, more about mechanics. (Clocktower lol)

Sorry if it feels like I'm throwing my toys out of the pram, but I'm just genuinely struggling with it.

[Deltabreedy]

If vibes is what you have, vibes is what you have and that's fair. Gutreads are underrated. The reason I was keen on pressing the point is because of the accusation of being defensive, to which my response was kind of 'Well that's not true imo, where?'

Let me know if I can do owt to support you getting back into enjoying the game.

[Luciaaaa]

If vibes is what you have, vibes is what you have and that's fair. Gutreads are underrated. The reason I was keen on pressing the point is because of the accusation of being defensive, to which my response was kind of 'Well that's not true imo, where?'

Let me know if I can do owt to support you getting back into enjoying the game.

I appreciate that. Gonna go play some Clocktower and hope it clears my brain a bit.

[ZolishT]

While I was reading Gozo's posts yesterday, I felt the same way as Luciaa. Despite the all accusations against him, don't think Gozo is frustrated in the slightest His thought process does seem genuine and the clear elaboration on thought process makess it easier to see where his reads are coming from. Definitely will not be voting for him. As an example, his earliest read on interaction between Crepe and Delta:

You could definitely argue that impatience to develop things during the day is a towntell. But here it feels a bit premature and performative. In the course of this, he abandons.the Crepeguy wagon fairly easily to join the lead wagon on Priest. In doing so, he seems to suggest that him and Crepeguy are the two people who are primarily contributing to the game, which seems like an interesting and contentious take at such an early stage. It gives Crepeguy credit really just for responding to criticism from Deltabreedy, which feels a bit like artificial praise (given any player is likely to respond when 'attacked'). In fact, I'm not sure Crepeguy's responses to Deltabreedy were especially strong, but Crepeguy was let off the hook easily.

In my eyes, Delta was defintely being performative with his accusation on Crepe, and this aligns with his playstyle. However, I disagree that Delta was suggesting him and Crepe were 2 primary contributors. I chose to not comment on Delta's push against Crepe because I was waiting for Crepe's response, and so OMGUS'd dareb instead. Delta interpreted this as disinterest in the engaement, which I can understand, but I was still disappointed he let him off the hook easily. I understand Delta didn't actually let him off the hook in his mind, but this is another reason why I agree with Gozo. His intent with the statement was clear and that's all that mattered to me.
On the other hand, Crepe expressed real frustration in 76 about the way Gozo decides to form his reads. In my opnion, this came from a town perspective. Hard for me to imagine mafia being so aggressive against everyone. Therefore, I think it's moreso a tunnel on Gozo. The push gets more mafia-coded by the hour though.

All in all, I think Luciaa, Delta, Gozo, and Priest are town.

[dareb]

I feel like we jumped off the Priest wagon a bit too early if you ask me; by VC 1.02 Priest went from E-1 to 0 votes without a word spoken

Gozo Loco a bit too defensive in my reading, especially this quote imo

You won't gain any info from voting for me, based on your self professed approach of simply trying to argue for me to die, and not wanting to actually talk to me. And I don't believe you gain much info from voting for someone without any intent anyway.

As discussed earlier, my vote on Delta over you was at a point I was suspicious of you both, with not much margin to call between. It's not the same as voting for someone who I think is probably not mafia, which appeared to be your position on me until just now.

Interesting that your position seems to have changed again - presumably in response to me questioning you?

I'll continue reading in later, but this what I noticed while skimming

[ZolishT]

Yeah, I've realised this definitely isn't the game for me. Feels far too personal. Vote me out!

UNVOTE: Deltabreedy
VOTE: Luciaaaa

Unfortunately, as a fellow townsfolk, I must regretfully decline your request
Your posts have been great so far! I get the sense it's just an assertive playstyle showing- nothing feels personal from where I'm sitting.

I'm big on vibe-reading. My last game? Town victory, powered entirely by vibes.

With that being said....

Dear Delta,
Your vibes have recently veered into suspicious territory. After a thorough review, my internal council has reached a unanimous decision:
You are hereby temporarily banished from the town circle.
Warm Regards,
ZolishTown

[Deltabreedy]

well shiver my timbers

[Deltabreedy]

Dear Delta,
Your vibes have recently veered into suspicious territory. After a thorough review, my internal council has reached a unanimous decision:
You are hereby temporarily banished from the town circle.
Warm Regards,
ZolishTown

Why is your vote on dareb still if by your own admission, this was purely an OMGUS vote to do what, just park your vote?

*snip*
However, I disagree that Delta was suggesting him and Crepe were 2 primary contributors. I chose to not comment on Delta's push against Crepe because I was waiting for Crepe's response, and so OMGUS'd dareb instead.

*snip*

All in all, I think Luciaa, Delta, Gozo, and Priest are town.

Has your read evolved?

[Gozo Loco]

I feel like we jumped off the Priest wagon a bit too early if you ask me; by VC 1.02 Priest went from E-1 to 0 votes without a word spoken

Gozo Loco a bit too defensive in my reading, especially this quote imo

You won't gain any info from voting for me, based on your self professed approach of simply trying to argue for me to die, and not wanting to actually talk to me. And I don't believe you gain much info from voting for someone without any intent anyway.

As discussed earlier, my vote on Delta over you was at a point I was suspicious of you both, with not much margin to call between. It's not the same as voting for someone who I think is probably not mafia, which appeared to be your position on me until just now.

Interesting that your position seems to have changed again - presumably in response to me questioning you?

I'll continue reading in later, but this what I noticed while skimming

Interesting take. Are you able to explain why you feel that post in particular was defensive? Interested in your reads on other players too.

[Gozo Loco]

Fwiw I don't think the Priest vote was really achieving anything, so seems reasonable to me that some of us moved on.

[Gozo Loco]

While I was reading Gozo's posts yesterday, I felt the same way as Luciaa. Despite the all accusations against him, don't think Gozo is frustrated in the slightest His thought process does seem genuine and the clear elaboration on thought process makess it easier to see where his reads are coming from. Definitely will not be voting for him. As an example, his earliest read on interaction between Crepe and Delta:

You could definitely argue that impatience to develop things during the day is a towntell. But here it feels a bit premature and performative. In the course of this, he abandons.the Crepeguy wagon fairly easily to join the lead wagon on Priest. In doing so, he seems to suggest that him and Crepeguy are the two people who are primarily contributing to the game, which seems like an interesting and contentious take at such an early stage. It gives Crepeguy credit really just for responding to criticism from Deltabreedy, which feels a bit like artificial praise (given any player is likely to respond when 'attacked'). In fact, I'm not sure Crepeguy's responses to Deltabreedy were especially strong, but Crepeguy was let off the hook easily.

In my eyes, Delta was defintely being performative with his accusation on Crepe, and this aligns with his playstyle. However, I disagree that Delta was suggesting him and Crepe were 2 primary contributors. I chose to not comment on Delta's push against Crepe because I was waiting for Crepe's response, and so OMGUS'd dareb instead. Delta interpreted this as disinterest in the engaement, which I can understand, but I was still disappointed he let him off the hook easily. I understand Delta didn't actually let him off the hook in his mind, but this is another reason why I agree with Gozo. His intent with the statement was clear and that's all that mattered to me.
On the other hand, Crepe expressed real frustration in 76 about the way Gozo decides to form his reads. In my opnion, this came from a town perspective. Hard for me to imagine mafia being so aggressive against everyone. Therefore, I think it's moreso a tunnel on Gozo. The push gets more mafia-coded by the hour though.

All in all, I think Luciaa, Delta, Gozo, and Priest are town.

I don't understand all of this, but feel like it comes from a good place. What does "the push gets more mafia coded by the hour" mean, in the context of the preceding paragraph? Do you think Crepeguy is mafia?

[Gozo Loco]

I'm now reasonably confident that 1 of Gozo or Crepe is scum. I don't think this is TvT.

What has led you to this conclusion?

[Gozo Loco]

I suppose one would assume that has been your view for a while, since you are voting for me and don't seem overly interested in pushing on Crepeguy.

[CrepeGuy]

Fwiw I don't think the Priest vote was really achieving anything, so seems reasonable to me that some of us moved on.

"Some" is incorrect, "All" would be correct.

Its clear though the only real reason Priest was voted on at the time was due to having a wagon for the sake of a wagon, but they are the only player at this stage of the game who seems actively interested in not contributing, unless you argue copy and pasting the player list and saying "hey guys what do you think of 1 of 2 people in discussion" is particularly helpful. I'm definitely not uninterested in going back that direction.

though there is still Bella who has literally posted a single post, making up 1/3 of the Gozo wagon to this day with their RVS vote so who knows

[Gozo Loco]

Fwiw I don't think the Priest vote was really achieving anything, so seems reasonable to me that some of us moved on.

"Some" is incorrect, "All" would be correct.

Not everyone was voting on Priest. Only some of us were, and so it is clearly correct to say that some of us moved on. Although why you really care to try and nitpick on that, I don't know. What would it matter if I had used the wrong word?

[CrepeGuy]

Fwiw I don't think the Priest vote was really achieving anything, so seems reasonable to me that some of us moved on.

"Some" is incorrect, "All" would be correct.

Not everyone was voting on Priest. Only some of us were, and so it is clearly correct to say that some of us moved on. Although why you really care to try and nitpick on that, I don't know. What would it matter if I had used the wrong word?

No I meant that the vote went to 0, so All of the people voting on Priest did move on.

[Gozo Loco]

Sure but like what's the point in arguing over that choice of word? Both interpretations are legitimate.

[CrepeGuy]

...Why are you being defensive over me correcting a word?

[Aureal]