Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over


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Post Post #7 (isolation #0) » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:43 pm

Post by SpyreX »

/confirm

Vote: RedCoyote
HE KNOWS WHY
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Post Post #10 (isolation #1) » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:47 pm

Post by SpyreX »

*puts out his cigar*

See here, we've got some bad cops on this beat.

Cops who'd rather see people die than see people get justice.

Cops who force us good cops to take the law into our own hands.

I.A. isn't gonna get this done. Its up to us. One of you barkin' up the wrong tree makes my teeth itch. Two of you barkin' is startin to look like a pack.

Dont you mark your territory here, or I'll show you who the big dog is.

Now get out of my office.
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Post Post #62 (isolation #2) » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:17 am

Post by SpyreX »

Ohh goodness another game starts with a self-vote spurring madness.

I'm out with work meetings all day, I'll try and post something of substance later on / tomorrow.
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Post Post #119 (isolation #3) » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:43 am

Post by SpyreX »

Ahem, I said "try" for a reason. Life has been a bit crazy for me, so unfortunately this game took a back seat.

However, young and old, this is about to change. RIGHT NOW. ;)

(As a starter: Rhinox - the scales of a fish overlap, much like a suit of mail armor).

Now, on to the crux of things:

The SK Debate:


The talk of an SK IS interesting, as most theory discussions are. However, ultimately, as has been said all we can do is prepare for the worst and move on... which we haven't. This leads me to my one major issue with large amounts of theory-centric day 1 talk:
the discussion itself is not finding scum.
Of course we need a jumping point, but more often than not it seems we all get scared of the diving board and refuse to jump.

I've got no plans to do that. :P Read on, young soldiers, for there will be a vote ahead.

MME, the enigma:

I find it interesting that MME has been brought up so many times about the absence of posting (it wasn't until this point I was mentioned and I'd safely say that Jahudo AND iamusername (and almost OGML AND Rishi as well) are also falling into that bag of "not contributing". So, why this one name versus the others that haven't been posting enough. Hell, bio even called out Korts for a one-liner...but none of the above?

I am not sure what to make of it yet, but something is amiss in this. There is some connection of sorts there.

This leads me to conspiracy theory 1..

Huntress, thy pray has left.


Now, in and of itself, I do not take umbrage with any of the non-conforming random votes (self-voting, not voting, etc). However, by nature they do come under greater scrutiny as they are the first sign of "difference" from the town-norms.

That isn't my problem with Huntress, though. The vote (or absence thereof) doesn't matter, its the fact that the vote itself really appears to be acting as a shield from entering into the discussion.. AND, of course, the fact that Huntress was quick to call out MME for doing the "same thing".

Huntress is playing the cards very close to the vest and, really, I dont like it. I could see the absence of voting as a way to attract SOME attention without, of course, getting enough to get lynched. I dont like it.

Here would be where I placed an FoS if I was so inclined. However, I'm not.

We've got one other major suspect. One that, at this point, I'm happy to vote. Come on down...

Pops, why do you keep hitting me??


Vote: Popsofctown


Why pops? Well, the suspicion meter ran really high after this little gem of a post:
The +'s and -'s were the direct gains from BC's SK discussion, not including the resulting WIFOM assumptions that the player does or does not have that alignment since the action was partakened.

I don't know why Korts is voting me, i thought we were all trying to start discussion. Wasn't he the one saying one can even resort to jokes to get discussion going? I couldn't think of anything funny.

Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I won't random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game. I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.

Apparently jokes are the only appropriate way of starting discussion Korts. A question for you: A cowboy rides into town on Friday. He stays in town for three days, no more. Then he leaves town on Friday. How is this possible?
Why does this post bother me so much in reading?

1.) The concern over a single vote placed, under the misnomer of "I'm just trying to start discussion."
2.) The callout on huntress raises a flag in the statement "I dunno if you're town or scum". Thats one of those obvious apparents to a town that a scum, in my opinion, uses to try and "blend".
3.) The snipe at Korts. Even if you disagree with Korts, what is the pro-town motive for poking and creating fluff?

Speaking of fluff, the next few posts are just that. Fluff - based around the #3 above. Even in his contentish post: again he posts another jibe at the end (another nice little tidbit of cognitive dissonance... who has posted they hate the "nonsense" yet keeps doing it?)

This has tapered off some in the last couple posts, but again the last two posts were more fluff - and the last AGAIN is only directed towards the riddle itself.

So, yea, my vote can sit here for a good long while.

BUT, I would be remiss if I didn't share all my conspiracy theories:

Watch the salt:


My other major conspiracy theory can be best illustrated in this wonderful example I have concocted for my amusement:

At this point, the active players are actually town. In their attempt to find scum, they have created an Algonquin-style round table where theories and happenstance may be discussed freely. The banter is light and humorous.. until someone spills the salt. Although not a crime in and of itself, it is noticeable enough that everyone else at the table starts giving the perpetrator of the crime the stink eye and the banter becomes darker.

At this point, the others near them start talking about salt and all other salt-related mishaps until the table is dissolved and the saltist is hung for his crimes against humanity and salt-lovers everywhere. Only to find that, of course, he was just a poor fool that spilled the salt.

Who is to blame? Why, the others that inflamed the salt-spite. Watch for them.

(Simple version: The disparity between the actives and the lurkers is startling enough that I am mentioning it so that the lurkers, in fact, start speaking up. Yes, I know the apparent hypocrisy.)

So, there's some words. :P
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Post Post #149 (isolation #4) » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:44 pm

Post by SpyreX »

You know whats funniest to me about this last page of information?

We've got a now growing wagon on Rhinox getting pushed on an appeal to emotion... which, sure, could be true but what is the initial issue(s) that the appeal is covering?

I'm still not seeing that.

On the flipside, we've got pops who has managed not to mention me by name (yet referenced my call on fluff AND my note of his poking on Korts) - whereas earlier interactions with people holding supsicion was followed up directly.

In fact, lets look at this last post:
Rishi: Is my case against Rhinox valid enough for a vote? Is Korts' and iamusername and rest of crapwagon's arguments valid enough for a vote on me?
Why the specific talk to Rishi?

Why mention Korts and username and leave me oddly out, once again?

What, exactly, is this case against Rhinox? What changed from "Don't really get an alignment vibe from him" to pushing a wagon on him?

These are serious questions. This behavior is reaffirming my belief and my vote.
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Post Post #153 (isolation #5) » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:32 am

Post by SpyreX »

pops wrote:Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword. 12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them. Wink

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.
No, not everyone complains about fluff in the same way. See, I brought this up before because this stance you've taken on "fluff" does not mesh with your own posting history.

That, of course, is coupled with the bizzarre reaction to Kort's vote and total ignoring of mine.

Rishi doesn't have a vote, thats true. Neither does Huntrees, MME or Rhinox. Again, why Rishi? Why would your case on Rhinox push HIM and not the others? It doesn't make sense.

I've laid out my points. If need be I'll do it again later.
Korts wrote:You know, this is a fairly good point, SpyreX, but it doesn't help you that you pointed it out. To me this whole situation looks like pops tried to avoid having to distance you and you called him out for it before anyone could make the connection between you.

My main points on pops are still that he'd admitted to having committed to a minor scumtell and that he'd deliberately mischaracterised my argument about serious discussion rooting in jokes. In addition there's now an implied connection with SpyreX from his side. I think that sums up the case pretty well.
Well, if he's trying to distance and I'm trying to bus, so be it. :P If I am right about pops and I end up being a mislynch tomorrow for it, fine. 1-1 is alright by me.

However, I brought it up simply because it doesn't mesh with his earlier replies to votes on him. You get pages of riddles and I get... nothing. It doesn't add up.
RC wrote:I love your salt story Spy. What troubles me is why you aren't following through with it.

Your pops vote is reasoned enough, but right after you got through telling me how pops is disguising his inability to follow the game with a book of riddles on his shelf, you tell me that all the lurkers in this game are bad news.
Well, some of the lurkers have picked it up some. Not enough, but some.

More importantly I think pops is genuinely scummy - and thus we've moved away from the salt metaphor into the classic villainy.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #6) » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:14 pm

Post by SpyreX »

@Everyone regarding RC:

Although I think the SK talk is becoming a sticky point, what about this focus is scummy? I'm having a hard time finding a scum-motive for "WATCH OUT FOR THE SK" in the fashion its been. Is it bordering on silly now? Yes. I'm still not seeing the scum maneuver for it, though.

@Pops:

I am dealing with it. Hence the vote. My bad in asking for reasons for it.
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Post Post #184 (isolation #7) » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:09 am

Post by SpyreX »

Ok, going to try to catch up with the few questions I know I've missed. (It helps me, with the walls of text, to have a nice little spot for questions.)

However:
Huntress wrote: How was it a shield? And where did I call out MME? I used him as an example to question Rhinox and later I followed up a comment that pops made about him but I never accused MME of anything.
How is it a shield? Your non-vote was a focal point of your first 5 of 8 posts. 2 others were short posts indicating a Red Coyote vote, and the last is the post in which you ask me this. So yes, from my eyes the non-vote has been used as a basis for the majority of your posts in the game as a shield from actual contribution.
Huntress wrote:Yet my non-vote has caused more discussion so far than any vote.

And a question: Why are you not mentioning My Milked Eek, who also posted without voting?
As this was in reference to Rhinox not liking your absence of random voting, this IS a callout. This is, "Why are you after me for X, when Y is ALSO doing X". At minimum you are calling him a lurker, at best you are saying Rhinox is a hypocrite for attacking you and not him for it.
RC" wrote:I did not get that feeling, nor did I see anything to indicate that Spy did follow through with his castigation of lurkers after making the salt story.

I think the story is apt, but he then proceeded to vote pops. pops is not lurking.

pops is not a lurker. Spy is anti-lurker. Therefore, Spy is anti-pops. Doesn't make sense does it?

I realize there is more to Spy's vote on pops, I'm not doubting that. What I'm having trouble with is Spy pushing his salt story and then blantantly voting someone who was at the proverbial table.
I'm glad the story struck a chord, however - it wasn't the only theory I presented there. I gave three major theories in that post:

1.) That pops is scum.
2.) That huntress is scum.
3.) That, of the active players, there were no scum present and the lurkers were just waiting for an opportunity to strike.

Now, alas, I have only 1 vote. I have chosen to go with theory 1 at this point. If I had two more votes that had to go different places, you can be damn sure huntress would have one and one of the lurkers (at this point probably OGML or Rishi) would have one. As a plus, after my lurker callout Jahudo HAS been posting more. So, not a total loss on that front.

Trust me, I have not forgotten them. The only problem is that, as discussion has continued, I have become more sure about pops versus less. So, nope, I'm not dropping this avenue for another avenue I brought up. :P

Now, for the Rhinox wagon:

Can someone (much like bio did in regards to RC above) simply give me a bulleted list of their reasons for this wagon. Needless to say, I'm still not buying it but it has enough traction that I want to see the rationale without WORDS interfering.
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Post Post #248 (isolation #8) » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Sorry about the absence of contribution. This game requires some serious attention to get anything down.

So, here we go:
Pops 190 wrote: Spyro will soon be here to chastise me for it though. Use the fire breath, it's super effective against my mushroomy head.
For all the talk of appeals to emotion and everything else, this assumption that I'm just pouring on you because you're little ol' towny and I'm the big mean silhouette that stalks you is just asinine. Bio's case is not bad. Agreeing with it is, of course, not bad within reason. Thats how we move forward.

However, this little snipe IS bad and, get this, furthers my issues with your play once again.
Huntress 192 wrote: I think your definition of "call out" may be different from mine. If I was calling out MME, i.e challenging him, I would have addressed him directly, or said something like "calling out MME for ...". What I was actually doing was using him to try to discover Rhinox's true intentions.
Its going to be hard to get me to read that as anything but "Why me, when he's doing it too". Especially when it reads in response to bad. But, taken into consideration.
Rishi 200 wrote:I don't know if an SK has an easier time if we ignore him – SKs hardly ever win as-is. If there were only one kill each night, I wouldn't think SK discussion should be at the forefront on Day 3.

What I don't get is that, why is this all that you're discussing? And not only that, for the most part, you're discussing whether or not we should be discussing the SK and devoting a lot of space to it. Yes, I realize that a lot of people are asking you questions about it, but your answer to all the questions is pretty much the same. You are the one who is choosing to answer in a long-winded and repetitive manner. I can't believe that you can't take a step back and see how unhelpful all of this is.

Others have given good reasons for what you're doing. I particularly like Bio's 182.

Vote: RedCoyote
So, I dig that with a wagon there's going to be some me tooing. However I really dont like the jump from "SK talk is unhelpful" to "others have given reasons" for this vote.
RC 221 wrote: I'm going to go ahead and go on offense a little bit, seeing as how no one has asked for my claim yet. Usually I don't mind addressing questions brought up for me, but it really is beginning to get out of hand, especially when Huntress and Spyrex haven't even made an updated post yet. So to those of you who want me to defend myself more, I say that if the lynch is coming down to me and Rhinox, then I shall be the one to make an official case against Rhinox.
Now, all the SK talk and everything else (which I still think is null), this actually bothers me enough that I am tempted to throw a vote - and I would if I was more confident in the wagon.

Few questions:

1.) What does Huntress or I have to do with answering questions presented to you?
2.) Why, in the name of everything holy, would you create a false dictomy and push a self-preservation wagon (even IF you thought Rhinox was 100% USDA Choice scum, this wording is a giant red flag).

I see that this is brought up later, but seriously. Thats a flag thats gonna hold some serious suspicion.

But, onto the general feel of this game:

Pops is still my #1 for scum.
Not Rhinox OR RC - if I was forced into this dichotomy, I'd say RC due to the aforementioned is scummier BUT neither of them ultimately ring my bell at all.
MME needs to pick it up and soon.
Rishi and Huntress both are bothering me on a level I can't quantify yet.

I'm still perplexed at how hard it is/was/has been at gettign a concise list on Rhinox OR RC, really (sans bio). The amount of "me tooing" on these wagons should be a damn red flag but seriously.

Anyways, massive headache. Out for now.
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Post Post #260 (isolation #9) » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:08 am

Post by SpyreX »

OGML wrote:You are just feeding my paranoia about Rhinox being the scum power role here.
If by feeding the paranoia you mean not buying the scum route, yea. :P I'm just not seeing it on either wagon and I'm aggravated to no end that I cant devote enough time / words / special sauce to get pops on the radar.
RC wrote:2.) I don't even know how I should respond to this. There are a limited number of days left today, indeed my most pressing issue should be self-preservation.

Due to the fact that no one was taking the initiative to provide an alternative lynch, I took the opportunity to lay a case against the person I thought to be most scummy. I was the first person to vote Rhinox outside of the random votes. Although now I'm under unfortunate circumstances, Rhinox was certainly not a name I picked out of a hat or decided to choose because he is the runner-up in votes. Believe it or not, I actually do think Rhinox is scum Spy. I can't tell you how disappointed I am that after you requested someone make an official case against Rhinox in a similar style to that of bionic, this is all you were able to get from it. The insinuation that me pushing Rhinox is based purely on motives of self-preservation is completely misguided. I've had my vote on Rhinox for a week now, so please don't tell me that this comes as some sort of shock to you that he would be the person I voted.
Now, see, thats the thing. I don't care how much time is left and if you're on the block or not - the goal isn't self preservation. The goal is finding scum.

The fact that you brought up self preservation as such a huge point is telling and bothersome.

HOWEVER, you are correct and you did lay suspicion on him much, much earlier. So, I will give you that.

AS for not responding to your case yet. Well, as you can tell from my initial response, the "self-preservation" route almost immediately made me downplay it. In rereading it from a neutral point: there's a lot of filler and conjecture - but there are a few solid points. For the most part this reads as a justification after the fact, though.
But I hold out hope in Jahudo, Rishi, CF Riot, username, and MME to give the argument a fair shake before letting this lynch go through.
You realize this is the same "appeal" business you're getting after Rhinox for - and you're acting like I, who do think BOTH of you are town still, am ignoring whats going on. :P
Rhinox wrote:I wouldn't call it a misrep... you are so stuck on the idea that RC and I are scum partners. You think I'm the one with a power role, so you make up a story that I'm a mafia doc, and RC is worried about an SK because I'm his mafia Doc scum partner, and having a mafia doc is an explanation for why RC is "worried" about an sk... This is nothing but a wild conspiracy theory, based on no facts, that you have to fabricate to justify your argument. In other words, you're playing exactly how I played in our newbie game, when I was scum coming up with crazy scenarios to justify a case to get you mislynched Wink
...What?

Seriously. What?

I, in fact, may be misreading this but are you saying OGML is scum because this parallels what you did as scum in a different game?
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Post Post #262 (isolation #10) » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:49 am

Post by SpyreX »

No, I've read the others. Believe you me. HOWEVER, that post I quoted is not saying that there is a parallel in how you played as scum in a different game?
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Post Post #266 (isolation #11) » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:35 am

Post by SpyreX »

BIO HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY THUNDER

But yes, good job comparing scumbolina to you in a maneuver to not... appear... scummy.

If its scummy for what it is, why the qualifier. Thats the issue. Much like RC's whole "self-preservation" move. Why qualify scummy behavior?

Its like you two want me to want to lynch you, I swear.
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Post Post #291 (isolation #12) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:21 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I HATH BEEN PRODDED

So, I come back to see pretty much where we were before: running up two lynches I just can't get behind.

So, we're gonna play a different game:

Pops, Huntress, Rishi

Chance of 1 scum in that grouping: 100%
Chance of 2 scum: 70%
Chance of 3: 35%

YOU BE THE JUDGE.
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Post Post #303 (isolation #13) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:43 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I'm not sure what Spyrex is getting at. However, I do find it interesting that he singled out three of the five people on the RC wagon, and the other two people on the wagon were the only ones who responded to that post. Not sure what to do with it, exactly. But there's got to be some kind of deflection going on there.

So, SpyreX, it feels like you are presenting a classic case of confirmation bias. You've picked out three players in the game and you think they're scum and are unwilling to entertain any other notions. You've said before that you don't think either Rhinox or RC are scum, but have never said why.
Yes, its because you're on the wagon and nothing to do with problems I've mentioned about all of you earlier. Alas, busted.

I love this confirmation bias issue - I get it a lot. But, lets look at it. There are 12 people in this game. 2 are being wagoned that I dont agree with (I'll get to that later), 3 I've made clear my issues and 1 other is me who is awesome. So, that is 50% of the game explicitly mentioned my feelings on. Now, considering MME didn't "play the game" and his replacement ALSO isn't "playing the game" he can easily be removed. So, that leaves us with: Bio, Username, CFR, OGML. Now, I may not have mentioned them, but can you guess the vibe I get from them at this point?

But, you do raise a valid question: Why, exactly, is it that I think RC and Rhinox are town (albeit definitely not A++ PRO TOWN) and you three are scummy?

At heart, it comes down to this: They have SAID something this game. You three, ultimately, have not. This isn't an issue of lurking either, its a bit more insidious which I will get to in a minute.

So, for all this business RC and Rhinox have been getting, what purpose would it serve them as scum?

RC has been running around saying the sky is falling for a while now - he hasn't (aside from self-preservation (which is a BAD thing)) been trying to take a leadership role and he most definitely hasn't done a good job blending in. However, he HAS had a stance that has been made abundantly clear - and, considering some other items in this day has made it nigh impossible to make it to lylo without outside confirmation: not really a good scum maneuver.

Rhinox, on the other hand, started out fairly normal and nondescript and, as far as I can tell, imploded under the tiniest bit of pressure. Again, his "WIFOM" business really doesn't bother me because no matter where the wine IS, I dont see a scum benefit for it.

So, no, I'm still not seeing EITHER of them as scum at this point. However, considering we have a deadline AND the chances of the lynch moving away are minimal, this is mostly an exercise in getting my opinion out there.

Now, as for you three:

Rishi


Weighing in at a whopping 9 posts this game, Rishi, really, hasn't said that much.. but this one does stand out STILL:
Rishi wrote:What I don't get is that, why is this all that you're discussing? And not only that, for the most part, you're discussing whether or not we should be discussing the SK and devoting a lot of space to it. Yes, I realize that a lot of people are asking you questions about it, but your answer to all the questions is pretty much the same. You are the one who is choosing to answer in a long-winded and repetitive manner. I can't believe that you can't take a step back and see how unhelpful all of this is.

Others have given good reasons for what you're doing. I particularly like Bio's 182.

Vote: RedCoyote
What bothers me, every time I read this, is that there's no "fire" or real fist-pounding belief in this at all. Does Rishi say he is scum? No... just that the SK discussion is unhelpful. Does Rishi give his reasons for the wagon? No...just that he agrees with Bio.

Yet, he's been suspicious of RC all along? Really, there was a few questions, but I'm having a hard time seeing that suspicion throughout.

Huntress


Now, this one, well. I've talked about the whole no-voting business before but there are two other things I'd like to bring to light:
Huntress wrote:
Rhinox wrote:Maybe I just have a narrow view right now, but all i'm getting out of our back and forth is you saying, "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk", followed by me saying "thats not what I'm assuming, but how does assuming there is one help us?", followed by you responding with "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk."
I think that's a fair summary.

Vote: RedCoyote
This is when her vote joined the wagon. Again, I read it and read it, but I'm not seeing how this = RC is scum.

And, in the latest post:
Huntress wrote: I haven't actually been tunnelling on you, although it may seem like that from my posts, but I've been weighing up everything that's been said and have suspicions on at least three others (Pops, Spyrex and CF Riot). Now that I've caught up again I'll be able to go back and look at my notes to see if there's enough to make a case on any of them yet.

Out of Rishi and Pops I see Pops as more probably scum at the moment.
I haven't seen anything, not ONE THING, in any of this posts even predending to show reasons why CFR or I are scummy.

In addition, any reference to pops being scum from huntress comes with the conditional pops AND RC are scum and RC is distancing from pops.

Why does this bother me? Well, when RC is lynched and comes up town...well, guess that means pops is all good, rite?

And... of course,
Pops


Ultimately, every single damn one of you that are voting RC because you say he is "unhelpful" versus "actually scum" drive me nuts because no matter how I weigh the actions of the two in the realm of unhelpful pops keeps comin up spades. 51 posts and I'd go ahead and say 50% of that is "fluff" (remember that thing he was so up in arms about).

His jump from Rhinox to RC was based heavily on a meta-tell. In rereading, I could see SOME credence for the Rhinox vote but the jump... no.

Every ounce of me screams "scum" at Pops this game. Every bit.

Unapologetically unhelpful (see the you aint got nothin on me coppa defense) + hiding in plain sight + bandwagon voting = delicious scum cookie.

Come take a bite.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #14) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:05 am

Post by SpyreX »

Jah wrote:I feel ignored Sad
See, this is how you blend. I keep forgetting you are even IN THIS GAME. :P

(I kid, but yea - you are absolutely blending this game for me. I'm going to have to figure out what that means in the long term).
RC wrote:If I am lynched, what will happen to Rhinox when I flip town?

Frankly I'm more partial to OGML's original idea that Rhinox was attempting to lead a wagon indirectly. On the one hand, saying that I am innocent and the wrong lynch, but on the other throwing every damaging accusation he could at me (e.g. stating the obvious, aiding mafia through SK-talk, not answering his questions, being overly defensive, partnering up to pops, etc). Of course, where I differ with OGML is his further prediction that we are two separate scum parties.
What happens to Rhinox when you flip town? Well, probably the same business that we have today. Half the town instant pushes and someone else becomes a competing wagon, etc, etc.

Ultimately, both of you have claimed the spotlight and we all know that that doesn't go away. Ever.

So, you flipping town means exactly two things: you were town, and you were hung. Those aren't good things, which leads me to:
Moriarty wrote: At the moment, I highly think that pops is scum, Vote: pops. However, I am fairly distressed with SpyreX's attempt to derail the wagons on Rhinox and RC this late in the date. Equally well he could have made that post at the beginning of day 2. Of course, this winds up being a WIFOM, though if one of the Rhinox or RC wagons go through today (especially the latter), and it flips as scum, then SpyreX is definetly worth another read.
If this was deadline day, sure. However, I've been very clear about my feelings about these two for..ohh, lets say forever. So, yes, I'm making my stance clear because I'd much rather see pops lynched than either of them.

As for if I'm wrong and one of those two ARE scum. Yea, thats going to put a whole mess of suspicion on me. Of course, I don't think I'm wrong so that is a bridge I'll come to when and if it happens.
pops wrote:You ain't got nothin' on me coppaaaaa.
For serious though, i'm not scum here. I'm not hiding in plain sight, no one's addressed game-related content to me and then i've avoided it. There's a question, one question in this sea of walls, that you supposedly asked but i never answered.
Bandwagon voting? I really think RC is scum. This looks like RC scum. I don't know how i can explain this better. He loves to hide behind aspects of the game that don't bear on his alignment when he's scum. That's one of the only tells i can recognize off him.
pops wrote:nunununununununoooo. You guys don't understand. If i don't read RC based on some kind of meta, i won't be able to read him at all. The last game i played with him was very very long, and he posted very very lot, and i 99% thought he was town and he was scum. So it would logically follow that my ability to read RC as a normal player is about zero. If i were to use no meta, i would get a false negative on RC no matter what. Meta is my only hope of reading RC in any sort of capacity at all. If you guys don't understand or agree with my meta-based reasons for voting him, don't vote with me. But that's the way it's going to have to be.

@whoever suggested RC has posted too much content to be scum: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. RC posts LOTS OF CONTENT when he's scum. Lots of content. This is a craptell.
Ok, this is a pristine example of why I hate meta so much.

What is the sample size you are using for RC's play?
What are the key differences in RC's play as scum and as town?
What makes you so positive that RC wouldn't alter his play between games as scum?

See, you are using meta as a spear (not a shield for once) to poke at a case and every time you mention it meta is brought up. This, of course, provides a "reason" that can't be properly examined within the confines of
this game
.

Keep in mind, you also just said RC posting content = scumtell. I want that out there nice and clear.

BUT, more awesome meta (and this is an example of why it is retarded, please keep in mind).

Lets look at my games:

1.) When I'm town, most of the time Day 1 I pick out a few targets for scummy behavior and DO get them lynched. A decent amount of the time there are scum there.

2.) The game I have played as scum, I bussed the hell out of my partner day one.

So, based on my meta, the answer is clear: lynch pops. I mean, if I'm scum my meta suggests that I'd be bussing, right? And, if I'm town, you know the wagon is not scum-motivated and thusly there is some merit in what I'm saying.. right? :roll:
bio wrote: I understand your point here Spyrex, but ask yourself the same question about Pops. Once I got a feel of how Pops was playing this game, I figured it was best for me to at least skim one of his other games. The playstyle in this game and his first game on this site (as town) are near identical. This does not definitively make him town for me, but it is the reason I am not sold on your case. At last count, he had 47 posts (this was before the weekend) and I think I was the only player with more posts. Now, even if you cut out 66% of them and call them fluff, he would still have 15 content posts which is more than half the players in the game have posted total.
The thing that gets me about pops, and the content / fluff ratio is that, really, even the "content" isn't truly that. Aside from Rhinox and RC and the bouncing between... I got nothin.
Bio wrote:For RC, I see a diverse number of scummy actions. To address the "what purpose would his play serve as scum", you have to look at the progression of his posts. A large portion of his posts were made in defense of his initial actions. Once called out that his posting was scummy, scum really would be forced to either commit to it 100% or backtrack out of it. Spyrex accuses Pops of 'hiding in plain sight'. Is the same not possible for RC? I admit the biggest doubt in my mind is why RC would play as he started after I was accused of being scum for discussing SK.
Now, yes, RC could be trying to hide in plain sight as well - however, I'm not "feelin" it the same way I am with pops. The SK conversations did serve as a method to be active without being proactive, however that changed the minute suspicion was being placed hard and fast. I, still, can't see a scum committing that hard to it that early.
Rhinox wrote:Spy: what assumptions did you make to come up with the conclusion that at least 1 of Rishi, pops, and huntress have to be scum? I'm not saying I disagree with your method - I use similar process of elimination methods to focus my scum hunting later in the game when more information is available to the town - however even after explaining why you don't think me or RC is scum, I still can't get to being 100% sure that at least 1 of the 3 has to be scum.

In order to come to that conclusion, you would have to be 100% sure that at least 4 of Bio, Username, CFR, OGML, jahudo and moriarty are town, as well as assuming you are town yourself, and assuming 4 scum in the game. I find it suspicious that you are able to confirm 4 town players on D1, and use that information to say that the probability is 100% that at least 1 of Rishi, pops, and huntress are scum. I do agree with the points you've brought up against the three players, but I feel like its manipulative for you to say that you're 100% sure that at least 1 of them is scum.
Ok, lets break this down since there's a few things that need to be clarified here.

1.) Based on the play day 1, I would be flabbergasted if all three of the above are town. Hence, I'm positive that
at least one
of the aforementioned players is scum.
2.) Considering their play and the personal red flags it has raised, I have a higher-than-average belief that two of them are scum.
3.) As, although I am awesome, I have been led astray in the past, I doubt I nailed 3/3 thus, chances are, one is probably a false positive.
4.) Regardless of my alignment, of COURSE I am going to 100% A+ say I am town in my conjecture. This is a given.
5.) The game is a living creature. Opinions change based on new material. That is the nature of the beast. I have not "confirmed" anyone but myself - the difference is that the rest of the players have not raised flags. If, for example, someone tried to wagon Bio right now it would be an uphill struggle because I haven't seen anything scummy in his play. Now, could that change tomorrow? Of course. Don't paint my theories as "definitive".
6.) What, really, is the difference that I said versus someone being adamant about a player or two players? What, exactly, is manipulative in this?
OGML wrote:Spy/Moriarty - If Rhinox is scum, how does this change your opinion of pops? And the same question, only with RC as scum.
Well, if Rhinox or RC IS scum, that is in essence me wiping my slate clean and rereading the entire damn game because that means I'm way off in my reads. Pops, still, has been independently scummy and would still be on the radar but I probably would have a bit lower suspicion because I'm not buying a bus right out the window in this mess.
Rhinox wrote:I changed the 4's to 3's above because I realized my numbers were off. Changing the assumption from 4 scum to 3 scum only makes Spy's claim worse, because he has to be able to confirm 1 more townie, for a total of now 4 instead of 3. In other words, I was just expressing a best case scenario for Spy's claim that at least 1 of Rishi, Pops, or huntress has to scum, by showing that he would have to be 100% confident of at least 3 players being town if there are the maximum 4 scum in the game. If there are only 3 scum, then he would have to be 100% confident on 4 players being town, making his accusation even harder to believe.
Again, see above. Apples aren't B2 Bombers. My suspicion on them does not inherently mean I have confirmed the rest of the game to be town. Painting it as such is irritating.

I think I've said this before. Its like you want me to lynch you.
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Post Post #328 (isolation #15) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:43 am

Post by SpyreX »

Bio wrote:Let's delve further into the mind of Spyrex. I think it can be productive. Comments and questions in whatever order they pop into my head:

1. I won't completely dismiss the idea of Pops-scum since I do feel you are a solid scum hunter and I currently feel you are town. I feel it may be driven by his play style. The tough part is that he has a play style that would be very easy for him to carry into games when he is scum, especially if people accept it as his norm.

2. Since you have put a 33% chance on your 3 top suspects all being scum, I would be curious to know your 4th suspect if you have a clear one.

3. I need to update my Rishi notes now that he has posted a little more, but he is neck to neck with RC in my mind. Having fewer posts leaves me with less identifiable reasoning behind my suspicions of him though. Maybe this is an avenue worth pursuing.

4. I see I am not the only one who notices Jahudo floating around. Asking nice little questions, but not expressing any strong opinions. I can't find many things 'scummy' per se, but worth noting.
1.) Keep in mind I have no "play style" analysis on Pops. I haven't looked at his other games nor will I. I am basing it off this game. Thus, and if you like to look at my old games you'll see this sentiment: Meta is retarded, and if he's playing scummy NOW I want to lynch him for it now. If that's his meta, then we'll do this dance in every game we play.

2.) As of now, I dont have a solid 4th. I -could- be wrong about Rhinox or RC (if I was I'd say Rhinox at this moment but) or hell, you could be throwing the wool over my eyes or Jah could be a sneaky fella, etc, etc. More information from lynches will make that more apparent.

3.) Rishi would definitely not be a bad call at this juncture, imo. Still would prefer pops, but.

4.) He's had opinions, and done some clear overviews. Its just... I dont know. He blends in so well I can't pick out anything in particular.
Rhinox wrote:@ Spy: I get what your saying... basically, the 100% chance you said, is based on your own read of the game. But when I see someone quote a % chance, I automatically think that is a set statistical probability that is independant of anyone's read. For example, in a 3 scum game, the true statistical probability of 1 of Rishi, Pops, or Huntress being scum is ~62%. In a 4 scum game, the probability rises to ~75%. (both numbers assuming you're calling yourself 100% confirmed town). So thats why I feel your 100% is misleading - there is a big difference between saying you strongly believe 1 of those 3 to be scum, and saying there is a 100% chance one of them is scum, IMO.
Ok. I kind of get what you're saying. However:

1.) Of COURSE it is my read of the game. The only scenario where I could be 100% sure day 1 that one of them was scum is... if I was scum and bussing my partner in that mess. In that case, I would have expected a response from you to address that instead of saying I'm misconstruing.

2.) True statistical probability would mean I could have picked any three names. I didn't. Those names were picked specifically because...with their play I can not see all three of them being town. Hence, one MUST be scum. Hence, 100%

So... yea. Not sure the reasoning behind this.
Bio wrote: As a side note, I really don't understand all this grouping going on where we are trying to determine how a player flipping as an alignment will affect our view on the rest of the game. Trying to pair people up and determine partners without knowing the alignment of anybody seems like a surefire way to spin our wheels. The alignment of a lynched player should be a small component of how others are analyzed IMO.
QFT. Now, yes, I made a group of three players - but at this point I'm proposing lynching them based on THEIR behaviors not potential links to other players. Lets do some hanging and let the web filter out some before we slam dunk an entire grouping.

Worry about individually scummy players. When we lynch them and they are scum, then we move to connections. Not the other way around. :P
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Post Post #332 (isolation #16) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:50 pm

Post by SpyreX »

bio wrote: I have found a chink in your armor. I don't think meta needs to be a huge part of every read, but to completely disregard it is irresponsible of you IMO. You are getting into policy play here and anti-town hunting as opposed to scum hunting. For someone's play to be scummy, it would imply they are more likely to play that way as scum vs. town. If history shows them playing a certain way as town and NOT playing that way as scum, they are more likely to not be scum when displaying that style in future games (once the meta is proven to be broken, it becomes null, obv). My goal is to lynch scum, not lynch people who don't follow my personal standards for how town should play.

Now that I have defended Pops more than I really feel comfortable doing, I will move on. You know where I stand on it and why I won't be voting Pops in the near future.
There's no chink. We're just looking at the issues of gameplay drastically different.

From above, you are saying scummy play is scummy if and only if the aforementioned player does so as scum and does not do so as town.

I, on the other hand, find certain play(s) scummy by their nature. Further, the concept of meta as a shield for scummy play is what I take umbrage to - and that is what this is.

Meta, in very refined circumstances, can be used to find
differences
in play that could add credence to an argument for someone to be one alignment or another. However, and I will never, ever budge on this, meta can not, should not and is not a way to sweep play under the rug.

As for the last little bit - I AM looking for scum based on behavior that I find scummy. The fact that "bad metas" end up being scum well.. not going to change my play (see my sig).
pops wrote:@Spyrex- You would lynch me every single game for the same action because you thought it was scummy? Most the world agrees that self-voting has a positive correlation with being scum, would you lynch Natirasha every single game you played with him? You'd lose more than i would. I guarantee it.

If you really would lynch me even if you looked up my meta and it showed that i'm playing pops-town, i want you to tell me right now if you are trying to play to your win condition. Because if you are playing to you're win condition and that's really you're policy, i have no logical choice but to vote you.
Yep. I would lynch you every game if day 1 I thought you were playing scummy. Playing, not performing AN action. See, I dont care about "most of the world" with issues like self-voting. So, would I lynch Nat for that? No, of course not.

However, would I lynch K7 EVERY game? Or chenshi? Or Team Asshat? Yes, because their play is scummy from every damn game I've played with them.

And, just for the record:

1.) Bio is not going to lynch Pops because this matches his town play.
2.) Pops wants to lynch RC because this matches his scum play (See, also, providing content = scum because RC did this as scum).

It is so absolutely tempting to develop a bad, bad meta for myself and see how long it takes for the other shoe to drop. Srsly.

And, yes, I'll say it: I POLICY LYNCH PLAYERS I FIND SCUMMY REGARDLESS OF IF THAT MATCHES A META OR NOT. GIVE ME MY SCARLET S. :P
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Post Post #334 (isolation #17) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:54 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I'll get into this more later, but:

If you had never ever seen a pops game, what would you think of his play thus far?

Also, welcome to the "if we're wrong about the people we've opted to defend we are getting power lynched club" because after all this no way if pops is scum like I think can I see this goin good places.
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Post Post #337 (isolation #18) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:42 pm

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The S is for scumhunter, apparently thats bad. :P

Bio: If it was JUST fluff, then sure I could be persuaded to dismiss it. Its not though.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #19) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:07 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Well FINE. :P I'll go through tomorrow and rebuild my damn case.

But, I don't think that the being unhelpful is directly a part of the fluff - it is a separate issue that is exacerbated by the fluff.
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Post Post #356 (isolation #20) » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:01 am

Post by SpyreX »

Holy Postcount Batman! Quick, to the post-chopter!
RC wrote:Do you think Spy will move his vote before the deadline, should it come to that? Will you?
Just so there is no doubt - yes, I accept that I could be wrong about my reads so YES of course I'll move my vote before I let it go to a damn nolynch. The only player at this juncture would be myself that I wouldn't vote for to stop a nolynch.
Bio wrote:3. He won the game linked as scum. There would be no incentive to modify the style that previously was successful.
We'll get more into this later, but allow me this WIFOM: Considering he played a successful game as scum and with the sheer amount of people that weigh in on meta... wouldn't, if he were scum again, playing that same way raise flags (much as playing like he did as a town is lowering said flags).

This, of course, is why I hate meta. :P
Rishi wrote:What you're talking about is playstyle. I have been known to occasionally get emotional, but that's increasingly rare. I try to play with my head and not my heart.

And my suspicion of RC was there all along. Usually, if I'm asking questions to someone, it means I'm suspicious. In any case, even if I didn't articulate my suspicion since my first post on RC, it was still there.
Ok, I'll give this to you. This could be a difference in playstyle. However, of course, I'll get to my problems with you later.
Rishi wrote: Dude, I'm right here. Other than that one post that I voted for RC, you still haven't given any reasons for thinking I'm scum. It's like you think if you repeat that I'm scum enough that people will believe it. This is actually a fun experiment you can try in any game. You keep listing a particular player on your "scumlist" and keeping saying "This player bothers me but I'm not sure why." The player doesn't have anything concrete to defend himself against, so can't really respond to the accusations. Soon other people put the player on their scumlist and start scrutinizing the player's posts and voila! That player is lynched. At this point, I don't really think you're scum, but after this game, I think I'm going to nominate you for a title: "Confirmation Bias Poster Boy."
What happened to head, not heart? Or does little snide quotes and smarm come from the head now?

But, allow me to retort:

I have given reasons for thinking you are scum. I will lay them out in a nice clean fashion but don't pretend that I've just said OHH RISHI you cad. You want concrete problems with your play, I'll give them.

Or, to follow in the very cordial steps you've just laid forth - your "play".
Pops wrote:Ok, Spyrex is really miffing me off. He's being a total loser and not fulfilling his responsibility to this game. You aren't supposed to play a mafia game for the sake of fulfilling a vendetta against certain playstyles, or proving "yoohoo, i can make this group of people lose with me every game they play with me until i pound them into submission". That's not what you're supposed to be here for. My understanding is that you bring nothing into the game, and you play the game with no goals beyond the game you're playing, playing it to win. If you're town Spyrex, your win condition for this game is not prove a point to popsofctown. It is not punish popsofctown if he does something you don't like. It is lynch popsofctown if he's scum and leave him alive if he's town.
My meta is available to you, BionicChop has brought it up. I don't defend myself with my meta, like has been said you can manipulate a meta and use it to your own advantage, so bringing it up myself would be ridiculous.
But to flout your sig as being serious, that you play games and lynch people on policy instead of real scumhunting ticks me off. That's not what you owed me when you signed up for this game. You owed me to try and win this game, not follow a policy.

If you can show why his meta is bad, why in this instance meta isn't accurate on me, fine, fine. That's what RC is saying about himself. That's fine. RC wants to win this game. I know he does. But saying, oh, yeah, i bet he would do X whether he was town or scum, but i hate X so i'm just gonna lynch him is ridiculous and violates the commitment that you made to this game, unless i don't understand the point of the mafia games on the site i've been playing for quite a while.
Ok, first off - I like the giant appeal to emotion here. I am the big bad SpyreX, just hewing through the unprotected with my powers! Or, not. Thought that appeals to emotion were a bad thing.

But, onto the crux:

1.) No matter how many times you say it, there is no huge vendetta. I find your play to be scummy, hence I am voting for you. Its as simple as that. The conjecture of "if you played like this every game" is responded to with "if he played like this every game, then I would find him scummy every game, thus I would be voting for him every game". Is NOT a vendetta.
2.) I bolded a bit up there, because...really? You can't say that you wont use meta to defend yourself when you are using what someone else is saying about your meta to defend yourself... you see, that is still using your meta to, in fact, defend yourself.
3.) Again, read what I said: My policy lynch is lynching players I find scummy. Hence, I lynch scum (just, sadly, sometimes they aren't mafia). If you're going to accuse me of "not scumhunting" thats fine - but you better be able back that up (because we're going to see some hypocrisy with that in my next post, guarantee).
4.) I still can't believe we're doing this dance with this. I am saying I find X scummy. You (and Bio) are saying that X is an action you do as, and only as town
in other games
. I am saying, simply, that I dont care what you did in other games, that does not change the fact I find X scummy.
No where have you tried to tell me X is NOT scummy, just that X is ok because you've done it before as town. (Not to mention based on your sig there is a sample size of FOUR, lord).

I'm going to leave some other posts for the meggaaaapost I have coming up that I promised Bio. But, this deserved mention right now.
Rhinox wrote:This is why its misleading... when you say 100%, that means that if we lynch all 3 of them in a row, we will hit at least 1 scum. If we lynch all 3 of them and they're all town, then obviously the chance of 1 of them being scum is not 100% right now. You can think very strongly that 1 of those 3 is scum, but you can't be 100% sure right now. if you still say you are, then I would refer you back up to your point 1) and start wondering why you are absolutely confident, without leaving any room to be wrong.
So its not a matter of my confidence in my reads of those players, its the expression of that as 100% right? Well...I'll take it up with management.
IAUN wrote: As I asked Rhinox (and didn't get an answer, btw), who exactly is doing this?
I'll go dig through if I have to, but its more of a feel of the votes. I'm hard pressed to find a lot of "THIS IS SCUMMY, HENCE YOU ARE SCUM." versus a "well, SK talk is very unhelpful and thus could potentially maybe be scummy well gotta make sure welp".
IAUN wrote:I'm pretty sure he just said RC posting content =/= towntell. Are we going to get into another "not assuming/assuming not" argument now? That'd be tiresome.
No, it was a "RC does this as
scum
." This is part of his meta read and, thusly, if he is saying that he does it as scum AND as town thats a different issue. Either way, I don't like it.
IAUN wrote:It's your fault for saying "100%", really.
Well, its been brought up to management. Expect a response incoming shortly.

At least I managed to get caught up.. wait.. what are you doing? GET AWAY FROM MEEIOHAOHARHRhhhghhhh.....



EMERGENCY BULLETIN: SPYREX INDUSTRIES


Ladies and Gentlemen,

It has recently been brought to my attention that there has been an attempt by one of my employees to maliciously undermine the high standards of quality SpyreX Industries brings to the ScumhuntingTM community. Rest assured that this problem will not happen again - that employee has been executed.

Futhermore, to stop any further issues in regards to this, let me make the stance of SpyreX Industries abundantly clear: we take pride in our job, but we are not, in fact, prescient. So, if any employee of SpyreX Industries in the future utilizes the term "100%" please accept that there is an implied +- 5% margin of error*.

Again, I humbly apologize for any confusion or apprehension this may have caused. Please accept these delicious cookies as a small token of my apologetic nature. Hopefully I will not have to step in again and this new employee can, in fact, help eliminate the scum plaguing your land.

Warmest Regards,

Sir William Rutherford III, Esq.

* This margin of error does not apply to the percentage chance that an employee of SpyreX Industries is, in fact, town. In addition, it does not apply to how awesome employees of SpyreX Industries are.
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Post Post #362 (isolation #21) » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:15 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Pops wrote:I'm not trying to manipulate anyone's feelings. I'm trying to explain how disgusting your play is to you. It's not anti-town. It's anti-game. You're basically saying that you would totally ignore evidence just because it doesn't exist in this game's thread.
YES. That is exactly it.

How in the name of everything holy is my playing the game within the confines of the game anti-game FFS.
Pops wrote: I'm not bringing up my own meta to defend myself. It's a seperate issue where one of the players in this game is saying he's going to intentionally lynch people for action X even if he has reason to believe action X isn't scummy in this instance. Tantamount to saying you don't play games to win condition, which ticks me off.
Ok, you giant pile of strawmanning. This is way above and beyond.

Show me, somewhere, anywhere, where I have said this is a policy lynch AND I DO NOT THINK YOUR ACTIONS ARE SCUMMY.

Trying to paint it like I'm saying "Ohh yea, Pops is hella town but isn't playing like I want to." is absolute garbage.

Let me make this abundantly clear:
I do not care what your meta is. I want you lynched because I find your play in this game to be scummy. Period. There is no policy lynching behind this unless you want to call the policy "lynching players I find the most likely to be scum."


And, you, not me, made the statement I bolded before. It's bad enough trying to use meta to defend yourself. Its even MORE ridiculous to say you're not because someone else is (and then pointing to it).
Pops wrote:Tell me if you actually think meta is 100% useless in determining someone's alignment. If that's really how you feel, i won't be ticked because that means you're actual trying to play the game to win (either scumhunting or pretending to). You'd be pretty wrong, but you wouldn't be a tool. But your example about lynching a player consecutive games in a row for the same action seems to imply that you acknowledge its application and choose to flout it and policy lynch people.
No, meta is not 100% useless in determining someones alignment. However, the amount of usefulness is about 5%. However, again: meta is not a shield. Scummy play should not be hidden behind meta.

And, not surprising, you left out a key quantifier on my statement. The word scummy. If someone plays scummy (i.e. performs actions that appear to benefit the scum) in every game I am with them then yes I will think they are scum and thusly want them lynched.

If THIS is what you keep harping on as my "policy lynching" and this is a bad thing welp I can't help you.
Pops wrote:I said @whoever said RC-posts-content is a town tell: RC posts content as scum. So, if he also does it as town, its a null tell. This is probably the case. If he doesn't post content as town, which would be bizzare, it's a scumtell. Either way, it's not a town tell. I only wished to refute someone saying it was a towntell. It's definitely not a towntell here.
So, you are simply saying that RC posts content as scum. You have no knowledge of whether he does as town - you are simply saying that content, in and of itself, is not in fact a town tell. Fine.

I'll try to get to your case later but honestly this game makes me so irritated when I participate that its hard to want to devote any more time to it today. OHH NOES APPEAL TO EMOTION THATS AGAINST HIS META ZERG HIS ASS UP NOW.
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Post Post #367 (isolation #22) » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:59 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Happy Birthday Jah. Enjoy the cake.
Pops wrote:maybe i miss understood you.

you are naturally abrasive.
Funny thing is that, normally, I'm not abrasive. I become abrasive when I'm dealing with shit like "I'm anti-game" or "a tool" or what have you.

I'm not "abrasive" with the majority of this game. Just a few of you. Wonder why that is.

@Bio, et al:

I just dont have it in me to give a "real" case on either of them. So, I'm done raging against the machine for Day 1.

I'm still holding by my group of three having at least A scum in there. And, ohh yes, expect a whole lot of "I told you so's" when this awesome wagon flips town (whichever it is).

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.
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Post Post #400 (isolation #23) » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:38 am

Post by SpyreX »

Did I claim it was a pro-town move? Nope, simply null - I've spent all the energy on this day 1 I care to.

I've got my vote where I want it now. I'll make sure we dont NL, but aside from that - at this point I'm not arguing for my cases or against the ones I dont agree with anymore this game day.

So, I'll let todays lynch and tonights actions, hopefully, spur something aside from this same avenue.

Ohh, and how about this for a meta: In the majority of the games I've played, the people I've gotten into these "abrasive arguments" have been, in fact, scum. And, I'm willing to say every time I've been told any form of "learn to read" it has been from, in fact, scum.

HOWS THAT FOR META.

Peace out. I'm gone until Sunday.
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Post Post #419 (isolation #24) » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:05 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Huntrress wrote:That was a reference to RC rather than Pops and in that scenario I said that Pops could be scum or town. Nowhere have I said or implied that RC turning up town would in any way mean that Pops couldn't independently be scum.

It's interesting that you say "when RC is lynched and comes up town". What makes you so sure? Was that a slip?
Yes, it was a slip. Caught me!

Or, perhaps considering I've been very sure about both Rhinox and RC ending up town it was implied that I believe when he IS lynched today he will, in fact, come up town.
Not arguing for your case? Are you resigning to the RC or Rhinox lynch at this point? Even with 6 days left?
Yep, thats pretty much it (I didn't realize the deadline was extended nor do I really expect it to have ANY effect on today).

Looking at it from a realists perspective: barring some kind of cataclysmic explosion it is going to be RC or Rhinox today. I tried, due to the fact I think both wagons aren't solid, to shift that. After getting met with a wall of meta and, really, no traction it wasn't worth fighting that battle any more at this juncture. :P So, I'll pick it up tomorrow game-day (ohh no that must be a slip meaning that I know I will not die tonight OMG scum).
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Post Post #427 (isolation #25) » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:29 am

Post by SpyreX »

...refusing to comment? Are you serious?
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Post Post #429 (isolation #26) » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:38 am

Post by SpyreX »

Further being this page as, again, I made my stance clear on both of the wagons again last page...

I'm still, based on what has been discussed, seeing RC or Rhinox as scum and thusly still am not planning on voting for either except to stop a no lynch. However, again, I am not going to spend copious amounts of energy trying to derail this as I see it as ultimately futile.

However, I will make a comment on what you just said:
As far as oblivious to the game goes, how about Spyrex refusing to comment on either main wagon nor choose a favorite and vote on it? *points* Come on guys, at least pretend to be looking at everyone equally.
1.) Implication that I have not commented on either wagon? Check.
2.) Implication that I, in fact, MUST pick between these two in a false dichotomy? Check.
3.) Appeal to the mob mentality? Check.
4.) Pops hung and flipping scum? Still not Check. STILL NOT CHECK. COME ON.
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Post Post #438 (isolation #27) » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:09 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Retraction.. it appears that originally i did say for you to pick one or the other. That's not what i meant to say. I should quit posting during physics, it's very distracting in there. Stick to minesweeper. Anyway, i'm looking for you to choose one or the other or explain why they're equally bad.
Ok, since my repeated statement of: I think they are both town thusly they would both be bad lynches as the purpose is to lynch scum. Apparently isn't cutting it, I'll dance.

We're going to play the scenario game:

Scenario 1: Either (whichever) is at L-1 w/ 5 minutes before deadline and I am, apparently, the only player on.

In this situation I would lynch whomever
to stop a no lynch
.

Scenario 2: Wagons are on both of them, it is not immediately before deadline.

In this situation I, again, would say that I would much rather lynch you or Rishi but, again, would state I am available for Scenario 1.

Scenario 3: It is a super secret sudden death where only I may vote for one of them and who I vote for is lynched.

This, considering how many times you have asked, MUST be what you are referring to. I would, as it sits now, probably vote for Rhinox slightly over RC. However, again, I would be very vexed at this because I would definitely expect him to flip town (see my repeated I think they are both town).

Of course, this is assuming I couldn't vote for... ohh... you. Which I would. Which I am. Because I think you are scum.

But, seriously, what is this sudden infatuation with my not voting for people I dont find scummy?
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Post Post #457 (isolation #28) » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:40 am

Post by SpyreX »

@Spy, and this will probably piss you off, can you clarify something for me? Do you think RC and Rhinox are more likely town as in town-read on both, or do you simply lack a scum read on either?
HURHRGHHSGARH HULK SMASH!!!

Just kidding. Why would that piss me off? :P

Thats a good question. I think that it is a combination of factors that lead me to think both are town at this moment:

1.) The "major" offenses that both of them got wagoned for I still for the life of me can't see as scummy - definitely not "good", but not scummy.
2.) The fact that these did get pushed into such a spotlight AND have taken up almost all of day 1 is, on both counts, a pretty solid day 1 for scum.
3.) The behavior in regards to their wagons by more than one person has been questionable.
4.) The fact, really, that the subset of people I find scummy is 1.) voting for them and 2.) not them.

So, in a vacuum... they'd be neutral, within 5% either way. As it sits with it not being a vacuum I'm leaning far more town because of the other factors.

However, I know the necessity of a litmus test and I do fully expect one of them to get lynched (or this day will repeat ad infinium). I also know that if I'm wrong AND the lynch IS scum I'm, really, up shit creek with good reason. Ultimately I'm not all that worried about that though - like I said, I'm confident in my reads.
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Post Post #464 (isolation #29) » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:40 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I'm ambivalent about Rhinox at the moment. The only thing I'm reasonably sure about is that he is not partners with RC. My second choice for a vote would probably be SpyreX.

@ SpyreX: I think you overlooked the questions I raised at the beginning of post 402.
I suppose I did overlook them. Allow me to further expand.
402 wrote:But what did you read? Are you saying here that you think my case against RC is only this quote from Rhinox? What about the points I made? See post 191 for a summary.
But, lets go back to 191:
191 wrote:Mainly it was what looked like attempts at role-fishing; his statement re: night actions in post 108, and his comment about it being good practice to talk about all roles in post 126. It was also the way he tried to make out that others were assuming that there wasn't an SK. Those were in addition to the points I made earlier at the end of post 101:
191 self-referencing 101 wrote:I don't like the way RedCoyote kicked off the discussion about self-voting then just let it run without commenting further. I also didn't like his buddying up to me in post 51.
191 wrote:
RC wrote:The implication is what counts.
Then who implied that we should assume there isn't an SK?
191 in regards to the SK wrote:You said that you would gladly continue to talk about it. That doesn't sound like your hand was forced, or that you would rather not talk about it, or that you were no longer interested in talking about it.
191 wrote:I think that's legitimate scum-hunting. The fact that you responded to it in the way you did is telling.
191 wrote:By a later day we will have more information, however many kills there are, so the circumstances will be different. I can't predict at this stage how soon that will happen.
191 wrote:I don't think anyone has said that we should never discuss the setup, only that it's too soon to do it today.
191 wrote:This is not true. What is your justification for claiming this? And why are you are seeking to discredit my vote by claiming that it is based on a non-tell like this?
Ok, I think I pulled everything relevant.

So, lets break it down:

Why RC is scum via 191:

1.) Because of rolefishing in 108.
2.) Assuming that others were assuming there wasn't an SK.
3.) Talk of role setup in 126.
4.) Buddying up with you.
5.) Starting a discussion on self-voting then leaving.
6.) Constant SK discussion this early in the game.

Am I missing any?

So, sans the fact that (keep in mind I am not rereading to make 100% sure) minus 4 and 5 (which, really, are filler compared to the other issues) multiple people had commented and voted for him based on this at that point I'll give you there was some pre-case on him.

This begs the question: Why was it the summation of something Rhinox said (that wasn't even an indictment of scum from Rhinox) that you voted after
and not your own case
?

But, yes, I will concede it is there.
402 wrote: Actually there was one thing, abouts Korts, but, as I implied in the bit you quoted, I haven't put much in writing yet.
So you've said I'm your #2. Anything at all in writing yet? On CFR or I? Even baseline suspicions?
402 wrote:That was a reference to RC rather than Pops and in that scenario I said that Pops could be scum or town. Nowhere have I said or implied that RC turning up town would in any way mean that Pops couldn't independently be scum.

It's interesting that you say "when RC is lynched and comes up town". What makes you so sure? Was that a slip?
Huntress wrote:So, is RC-scum bussing scum-partner Pops, maybe to give him townie points if RC is lynched or to shift the wagon off himself, or is he pretending to bus an innocent Pops? I think the former is more likely but both are possibilities. (Yes, I know there are two other possibilities but I think they are even less likely.)
So, lets have a few postulates.

1.) You believe RC is scum (hence your vote).
2.) You said that there are two scenarios:
a.) RC is bussing pops (i.e. they are both scum).
b.) RC is "pretending" to bus pops (i.e. pops is town.)
3.) You said the former is more likely (2.a.).
4.) You have shown no real suspicion of pops as independently being scum.

Now, keep in mind I do believe both you and pops to be scummy - and I wouldn't be surprised one whit if you were scum together. So, like I said in that post: when RC turns up town (like I think he is), then pops is, of course, not going to be a subject of pushing.

If this is wrong, it really lies on #4. Show me somewhere, anywhere, where you've shown suspicion of pops on his own and I'll have to rethink this. Of course, I'd also like to see actual suspicion on the other people you've said you are suspicious of (sans RC, who we covered).

Have I missed anything else?
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Post Post #483 (isolation #30) » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:33 pm

Post by SpyreX »

You've rather minimised the case there but that's the bare bones of it. It was also more to do with the way he tried to justify what he was doing, and claiming others were responsible for some of his actions. One example of this is the extract from his 465 quoted below. As for the vote, I usually put a vote at or near the bottom of the post. Or at least after all the comments relating to the person I'm voting for. What is so strange about that?
Let me know what I missed.

As for 465 being part of the case you voted on before it happened... well.

Well, wow. For whatever reason I thought they were two separate posts (your case and the quote of rhinox followed by your vote). So, lord, I still dont understand why you quoted rhinox as a summary of your case when, really, it wasn't but disregard my other statement on grounds of illiteracy.
No, I'm still in the information gathering stage. I was waiting for your replies to my questions.
Well, fat stack of good that does with one day before the lynch. I really dont like the fact you dont have "anything" on anyone besides RC. But, what is done is done.
What is your point here? You know perfectly well that I haven't given any details of my suspicions of Pops yet, apart from the fact that he is not one of my top two suspects, so what are you trying to prove with this?
To be perfectly clear: you have not, at all, given suspicion of any player besides RC. Your sidehand suspicion of pops has always been held hand-in-hand with RC being scum.

Most everything you've said about RC is parts of the case pushed by other people. Aside from that you've latched on and said almost nothing today.

That, of course, is why I would be happy with your lynch. Pops more though.
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Post Post #497 (isolation #31) » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:21 am

Post by SpyreX »

Well, huh.

I really doubt that there are actually TWO jailers in this setup (although I wouldn't put it 100% past Vi).

Funny thing is, I knew RC was going to claim a PR, and I more likely than not expected it to be jailer. However...

Now I dont know what to think. If RC flips town Bio is going up the creek so it makes very little sense for that 1-1 trade. It does make sense in reverse though - a 1-1 is, in most cases, worth it for the town.

Well, hells bells, I was as wrong as you can be about RC I guess.

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote


I'll check back in but it all but has to be one of these two today.
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Post Post #508 (isolation #32) » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:48 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Ohh hay look at that.
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Post Post #520 (isolation #33) » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:37 am

Post by SpyreX »

Aha!

What's an even better explanation for odd killage like this is scum avoiding dead-ending. When you yourself, the scum, has publicly fingered someone as town, you know it will be hard to lynch that person since they can't help that lynch along.

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!, who seems scummy anyway. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?). And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

vote: Spyrex

We should get a night action claim from BC, should we not?
I... wow.

Yes I am scum that called both of the lynches yesterday as junk, defended them, then quickly turned around and killed Rhinox. Furthermore, the people calling me suspicious (for the record I think that is you and Huntress) are the ones I, in fact, have said are scum are really in fact my scumbuddies (note here that you indicted yourself as being scum).

CAUGHT ME!

Vote: Pops


You can not be town. It is impossible.

On to more important things though:

1.) Bio.
I really don't know what to make of this. Bio's play has not been scummy, however I really have a hard time buying two Jailers. But, why would a scum out themselves day 1 to bag a jailer? It doesn't add up.

2.) Vi's note on Mo and Rishi.
Chances are, yes, that both of these two are town because of this mess. However, do not accept it as a 100% truth. They could still be scum that simply went awol and a partner sent in a kill. Or we have an SK and the mafia didn't take actions, etc, etc.
Jah wrote:Since we now know that the two strongest wagons were on town, it seems likely that the scum didn’t think they were in any danger yesterday. So they might have played a little more relaxed and nonchalant about whom they’d end up lynching. Right now I'm thinking about that group of Huntress, pops and Rishi.
<3. Although you should modify it to pops, pops, pops, Huntress and Rishi.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #34) » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:32 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Because Rhinox was some super lynch bait, and as scum you don't have to vote someone for them to get lynched. I personally think anyone in this game as scum would have benefited from leaving Rhinox alive, not just SpyreX. I haven't yet figured out who would benefit from him dying. The "he won't get protected" argument doesn't seem like enough. The Spy, "Hey my town reads were right, so you should follow me today," argument doesn't seem likely either, because he could've just as easily let the town lynch Rhinox then made that same play on D3.
Ohh believe me I have no intention to "lead" at anypoint this game. Yesterday irritated me to no end.

I am simply saying: "Hey, guess what? Remember how I said both of them would flip town because those wagons were sttuppppidd? Remember that? Yea."

If, of course, this gets people to look at how pops and huntress are playing (and Rishi isn't), well thats bonus points.

Ready for some amazing NK conjecture? My theory is that pops-scum killed Rhinox for: 1.) trying to implicate me as scum for knowing those two were town and 2.) the obvious knowledge that no way in hell would a watcher-type role if it exists target Rhinox.

So, yea. :P
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Post Post #541 (isolation #35) » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:09 am

Post by SpyreX »

@people accusing me of backtracking- please, no. Am i not allowed to be wrong? I never said that my position was a stump, but people immediately started blowing it up and saying i was "taking a position". It was an L-max vote, the only people who made it seem like anything more than a vote on a notion were people misrepping me, not me.
I'm not voting for you because you were "wrong". The vote itself was scummy in ohh-so-many ways that, of course, builds upon the same set of actions you took day 1 that I called you out for.

Lets dissect:
Aha!

What's an even better explanation for odd killage like this is scum avoiding dead-ending. When you yourself, the scum, has publicly fingered someone as town, you know it will be hard to lynch that person since they can't help that lynch along.

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!, who seems scummy anyway. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?). And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

vote: Spyrex

We should get a night action claim from BC, should we not?
1.) You abandoned the Razor for a vote that was not based on, well, anything.
2.) You selectively applied actions that occurred yesterday (SpyreX was the only one who had Rhinox targeted as town).
3.) You say I "seem scummy anyways" - where, yesterday, do you honestly say I am scummy?
4.) You, who are so fond of screaming misrepresent, try to bring up a false-dichotomy in my suggestion of lurker-hunting and not doing it (hint: I was not saying hunt lurkers to the exclusion of everything else in the game. In fact, I specifically said the purpose was so they started speaking up. Which most did.)
5.) You actually say "The fact multiple people have said I am scummy" makes YOU suspicious of me. Who are these multiple people? Why, in the name of everything, would that have any effect?

So, this follows a pattern. A very scummy pattern.

You were all over RC on the grounds of meta. Rhinox for AtE. And now me based on convoluted NK conjecture.

There is a theme there: none of these are, in any way, actual scumhunting. They are fake attempts at it because, get this, you being scum can not actual look for behavioral patterns that lead to scum.

The fact there is a huge cognitive dissonance involved too (you defending yourself based on someone else talking about your meta, the ever-growing AtE's (see I'm not allowed to be wrong), the fluff-hating yet producing it, etc) as I have said more than once paints a scummy picture.

Thus my vote. Wrong is fine, but the reasons for it, well.
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Post Post #550 (isolation #36) » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:29 am

Post by SpyreX »

Pops wrote:One or more, i wasn't sure. Huntress is one.
I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!, who seems scummy anyway. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?).
And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why
(maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners.
Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.
Even with the (), that is built around multiple people. Even if it is one, it sill doesn't make sense, but.
So heartwarming. Because even if you don't contribute at all, you're contributing less than pops the fluff poster. Even if you also use WIFOM in your night action interpretation, you didn't do it as wrong as pops did. Even if you also voted for RC, it's pops fault because he's doing it wrong.

We saw the spotlight shine on two town players all of day 1. Maybe letting the spotlight fall where it may is not a good plan here guys.
Sup AtE variant deus: He's doing it too moom!

Also, considering you were a huge proponent of both of the lynches yesterday (on flimsy grounds, I may add) - How can you justify a turn-around under the grounds of self-preservation?

In addition, the small piece of "they were town, thus I am town." which is implied in that statement is... well... you know... scummy. Real scummy.

Their flips have nothing to do with yours. Painting it as such is just another brick in the wall.
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Post Post #553 (isolation #37) » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:12 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Pops wrote:I didn't say "they were town, i am town"

I'm saying "letting the spotlight center around two people while allowing people to lurk is bad," "letting the spotlight center around one person while allowing others to lurk is bad".
pops wrote:We saw the spotlight shine on
two town players
all of day 1. Maybe letting the spotlight fall where it may is not a good plan here guys.
No, you didn't. Its an implication. The key word, of course, being town.

Now, hypocrisy aside, if the statement was "We focused on two players yesterday and we're doing it again" it has an entirely different tone. When you take the events of today - a focus on you and apply them to yesterday - a focus on two "town" players. The implication of similarity is that you, also, would be town.

Which, of course, isn't true but.
Huntress wrote:In general it's an overall feeling I got from his posts, and in particular post 303, which implied he knew RC was town, and post 497, where he does an about turn and votes for RC, despite saying throughout the game that he was sure RC was town.
Considering you said you thought I was scummy before 303 and, yet, 303 is the only concrete "evidence" you've given for this feeling well.

As for the latter - I made it abundantly clear that a.) I thought RC and Rhinox were town AND b.) that I would lynch them regardless to stop a nolynch. This, of course, is because a.) a lynch is better than a no lynch AND b.) I could have been wrong (of course I wasn't, but.).

Of course, there was also the kink of the double claim. Which, in that situation, didn't make sense for Bio (if he was scum) to counter because with the time involved the chances of a wagon shifting under the guise of the claim were marginal at best. And rereading the OP leaves the number of roles present up to interpretation.

So, yea, I lynched RC and I was very sure he was going to flip town (up until the double claim which I was only marginally sure because the counter by nature didn't make as much sense from scum Bio as from town Bio - although by nature it does make Bio a bit more suspicious).

I've got a massive headcold so if it doesn't make 100% sense what I'm getting at - too bad.
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Post Post #561 (isolation #38) » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:25 am

Post by SpyreX »

Huntress wrote:When I first mentioned you in post 301 I said I was suspicious of you but I would need to go back and look at my notes to see if there was enough to make a case with. At that point it wasn't much more than a niggle.
Well since 303 and beyond is all I have to work with, allow me to retort:
That wasn't intended to be a full case, just a quick summary as I haven't finished my re-read yet. I never said that thinking that RC and Rhinox might both be town was a scumtell; it was the implication in post 303 that he
knew
RC was town that I was picking up on.
Yes, I
knew
RC would come up town.
I also
knew
Rhinox would come up town.
I also
know
Pops will come up scum.

Now, I'm going to requote what I said to you the first time you brought this up as some great slip:
Yes, it was a slip. Caught me!

Or, perhaps considering I've been very sure about both Rhinox and RC ending up town it was implied that I believe when he IS lynched today he will, in fact, come up town.
Huntress wrote:It wasn't so much the fact that you voted for the lynch, it was the words you used:

This doesn't seem to bear out what you are saying now.
From the absolute most cursory of glances, sure it doesn't. However, lets delve just a tiny bit deeper.
My post wrote:Well, huh.

I really doubt that there are actually TWO jailers in this setup
(although I wouldn't put it 100% past Vi).

Funny thing is, I knew RC was going to claim a PR, and I more likely than not expected it to be jailer. However...

Now I dont know what to think. If RC flips town Bio is going up the creek so it makes very little sense for that 1-1 trade. It does make sense in reverse though - a 1-1 is, in most cases, worth it for the town.

Well, hells bells, I was as wrong as you can be about RC I guess.

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

I'll check back in but it all but has to be one of these two today.
My other post wrote:As for the latter - I made it abundantly clear that a.) I thought RC and Rhinox were town AND b.) that I would lynch them regardless to stop a nolynch. This, of course, is because a.) a lynch is better than a no lynch AND b.) I could have been wrong (of course I wasn't, but.).

Of course, there was also the kink of the double claim. Which, in that situation, didn't make sense for Bio (if he was scum) to counter because with the time involved the chances of a wagon shifting under the guise of the claim were marginal at best.
And rereading the OP leaves the number of roles present up to interpretation.


So, yea, I lynched RC and I was very sure he was going to flip town (up until the double claim which I was only marginally sure because the counter by nature didn't make as much sense from scum Bio as from town Bio - although by nature it does make Bio a bit more suspicious).

I've got a massive headcold so if it doesn't make 100% sense what I'm getting at - too bad.
So, with those together, lets look at what I was saying again.

At the time of the claim and subsequent counterclaim, I did not believe that there would be two jailers. Hence, one of them would have to be scum. Although I still thought RC was town, it made even LESS sense from my perspective for Bio to come in with a scum-counterclaim on a jailer.

After that passed, I reread the OP and saw that there was obvious room for interpretation for the number of specific roles to be in the game. Now, even if I had read that and grasped that at the time of the lynch, I would have still ended up voting for RC to make sure the lynch went through - the only difference is I wouldn't have had doubt in my original read before it.

Its all good though since, as I've made apparent, once pops flips scum and I have a working base you're in the major pool of suspects.

As for all these lurkers I really hope you hold to posting SOMETHING after the weekend like I think you've all said.
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Post Post #563 (isolation #39) » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:39 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Of course I know its possibly false.

However, I have no reason to believe I am wrong at this juncture. Thus, you are scum.

This is not an attempt to cut of discussion of your alignment, just my personal opinion. That I am confident in. Confident enough to say your scum.

So, unless you're going to say my confidence in my own read is a scumtell (which, ultimately Huntress is)... as you so eloquently put it to me earlier: deal with it.
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Post Post #565 (isolation #40) » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:41 pm

Post by SpyreX »

... What fallacy are you talking about? Are you implying that I am repeating it to believe it?

As for the above, the more wordy version of the same thing is:

Of course there is the possibility that my read of the game is wrong.

However, all of the evidence of your play leads me to believe, in fact, that my read is not wrong. Hence, I am going to trust my read of the game. As my read of the game is one where you are scum, you are, to me, scum.

Explain to me the fallacy you are trying to push on me for this thought process: I think you are scum due to your play, therefore you are my most likely candidate for scum and I will call you so.
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Post Post #575 (isolation #41) » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:20 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Just because I dont copy and paste a list of the reasons I was voting for you yesterday (and still am) or the reasons I made clear with your terrible NK conjecture today in every post doesn't mean its a simple mantra of "Pops is scum" without backing.

I mean, if you really want I COULD copy and paste that in every post I address to you, but that doesn't change a thing except make my posts longer and harder to read.
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Post Post #578 (isolation #42) » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:52 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Its not a function of "impossible sureness". It is a function of your play, that is all.

The early exchange between you and Korts was, to me, suspicious. Like I have said again and again the cognitive dissonance between saying, explicitly, you do not like fluff and then actively and purposely contributing fluff is scummy.

Your case on Rhinox heavily utilized AtE as being a massive scumtell. Yet, you have repeatedly made statments that, in fact, are giant AtE's.

Your case on RC was based on a small-sample meta. I'm not going to go into (again) why that is scummy, but it is.

You were quick to utilize another players use of meta to defend yourself, yet in the same breath say you weren't. Furthermore, in the whole meta discussion you pulled out of the ether a reason to vote for me that, as per usual, isn't based on in-game play.

Then, there was coming out of the gate day 2. The "I am scum and said Rhinox was town therefore killed Rhinox (the claimed vanilla) and also other people have said I am scummy but when pressed what "other people" meant it was really just Huntress" post in and of itself is damn near voteworthy. Combined with everything else, well.

Also, rereading this mess AGAIN has led me to another one to add to this pile. You've been claiming, over and over, that I am simply saying you are scum without reasons (which isn't true). However, rereading I noticed something - everyone, look at pops posts and search for the word town. If I'm somehow the bad guy for saying he's scum without reasons... the repetition fallacy would also be committed by pops for saying he's town.

Even without all that, the reread "I'm town" business is well, awesome.

And there's the whole bipolar-posting you do in regards to me: sometimes you dismiss me, sometimes you troll me, sometimes you act like I'm the big-bad wolf..... I dont get that either.

So yes I have IMPOSSIBLE SURENESS without reason. I am simply yelling from the rooftops that you are scum.

Or, based on your play above which I have been saying for quite a while now, you are scum.
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Post Post #593 (isolation #43) » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:42 am

Post by SpyreX »

Pops wrote:When did i say i hate fluff? When?
Post 6 wrote: Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I won't random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game.
I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.
Post 26 wrote:
Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword.
12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them. Wink

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.
Unless you complain about things you like or are not included in your subset of "everyone" you are saying you hate fluff (if this was not the case, you would not have addressed my issue the way you did).
IAUN wrote: "We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?
<3's for that post. At heart, it is an Appeal to Fear (in case you were still curious).
pops wrote:@iamusername: you quoted something and said that people weren't misrepresenting me. The misrep is not about me thinking Spyrex is scummy. I think he is somewhat scummy based off tunneling. The misrep bit is when people called my conjecture about the night actions a "position". It was an idea, i thought people would recognize night action accusations are light feathery things but apparently no one else was on the same page with me.
The addition of a vote makes it a position. It was not simple conjecture at that point. The conjecture was flawed.
Rishi wrote:The question was asked much earlier, CF, whether or not I think pops is scum. Well, I thought it was a good possibility at the time, but I'm less sure now. (The reason him backing off SpyreX to avoid a lynch is that I think that SpyreX looked a lot more town at the beginning of the day after both RC and Rhinox flipped town.) His play is inconsistent, but he seems to be playing fairly emotionally. I often see emotional play as a town-tell, since good scum play is to be calm and collected. Personally, I find it much more frustrating being accused of scum when I'm town than when I am actually scum. I know that this isn't conclusive, but pops looked like he was about to blow a gasket in a couple instances - so I'm leaning towards pops = town.
I can understand "emotional" play being a town-tell but does that really negate the issues I have brought up with his play?

Your other items (Jah, Bio) I agree with to an extent. Stay active.
Rishi wrote: So, I guess I'm also waiting for my top suspects to post: Huntress (SpyreX is a jerk, but beneath all his jerkiness, he does make a lot of sense – I wouldn't put it past him to kill Rhinox just to prove he was right, but more likely someone was framing him) and OGML (went after both RC and Rhinox pretty hard yesterday and has contributed almost nothing today – that in and of itself is not a scumtell, but it makes it hard to associate him with anything else).
I am not a jerk! :(

But, and WIFOM or whatever you will with this: if I was scum directing the NK I most definitely would not have hit Rhinox day 1. A claimed vanilla with copious amounts of suspicion? No way. Being right is only second in importance to winning - and I'm still baffled by that because its not a winning move.

I doubly agree with OGML being absent today.

We're getting towards crunch-time and although I want pops lynched I DO NOT want it to be an apathy lynch.

Not Voting: Jahudo, Moriarty147, OhGodMyLife, Rishi, popsofctown

This is, real soon, going to be not acceptable.
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Post Post #595 (isolation #44) » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:44 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Nonsense... like your riddles?

And, again, if you were not including yourself in the dislike of fluff - why would you make that statement. Instead, saying "I don't have a problem with fluff, even if everyone else does." etc, etc.

So, yes, I am splitting hairs because that is an important hair that needed to be cut.

However, even that aside. Even if that didn't exist at all. Still scum.
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Post Post #597 (isolation #45) » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:27 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Yes I misread things badly. It must be all that stupid I have.
SpyreX wrote:On the flipside, we've got pops who has managed not to mention me by name (yet referenced my call on fluff AND my note of his poking on Korts) - whereas earlier interactions with people holding supsicion was followed up directly.
I was making the statement that you were quick to respond
in some fashion
to both Korts and IAUN's suspicions. However, even though you directly referenced statements I made you opted not to reply to me directly.

So, yes that equals "If you mention fluff, directly mention me."
The whole thing with nonsense is just you being a stupid semantics hairsplitter. Next time i'll say bullcrap instead of nonsense, so it's very uber clear to you.
Use bullcrap, use any negative-connotation word you want there. My reply is the same. It is not a factor of hairsplitting:

You said to huntress: I have a very low tolerance for your [insert negative-connotation word here]

You then proceeded to do JUST THE THING you were taking umbrage to. So, that is not a semantic issue. That is an issue of "I am stating X is very bad. I am then doing X." Or, cognitive dissonance if you will.

But hey ad-hom's are p sweet and really get me stoked to keep this up.
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Post Post #605 (isolation #46) » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:29 am

Post by SpyreX »

I just took a gander at OGML's post history.

Three full pages of posts on site since he last gave this game a one-liner.

That is absolutely unacceptable.

Huntress, while still needing to post, is not active on the site (1 post since).

None of this changes my vote for today, but seriously.
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Post Post #617 (isolation #47) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:18 am

Post by SpyreX »

"Ohh hay there is new posts here!"

"... looks like all the prods are saying they were prodded but cant talk"

":("

@CFR:

If I am right about Pops, I see two or three decently-strong connections worth pursuing.
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Post Post #622 (isolation #48) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:27 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Even though my magic-8 ball keeps coming up you are scum, I can agree with you on this pops.

This is downright ridiculous. How many prods were there?
Not a one. Only five total today. ~ Vi


I know incessant lurking IS p sweet and all, but believe you me if I had a daykill or a double lynch I'd use it and I wouldn't even shed a tear if you were actually town.

So, we're going to waste the rest of the day and have a deadline lynch on pops. That's awesome.
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Post Post #624 (isolation #49) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:54 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I am of both minds on that front. Part of the issue is that it is conjecture without the main point - pops being scum - absolutely proven.

But, sure why not? Hell, talking about anything is better than talking about nothing.

There's two people I see with ties to pops. How about you!

(I'm gonna make this fun so that maybe people jump in)
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Post Post #625 (isolation #50) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:58 pm

Post by SpyreX »

EBWOP: Two solid sets of connections. There are other minor/split ones. This doesn't include the inevitable namedrop that'll come after the flip.
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Post Post #627 (isolation #51) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:03 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Strong is a misnomer I suppose... noticeable works better, I guess.

Oddly enough, of the two I see one is voting and one is not. I'd be more apt to vote the one not voting as it sits too....

(This is going to be AWESOME when we're talking about totally different people).
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Post Post #628 (isolation #52) » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:11 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Lie due to being stupid: BOTH of the players I am thinking of currently are voting.
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Post Post #630 (isolation #53) » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:52 am

Post by SpyreX »

I am intrigued. Who wants to dump a suspect first? We'll go back and forth.
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Post Post #633 (isolation #54) » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:33 pm

Post by SpyreX »

How about you take that above paragraph and break it up into WHY people are maybes and what is the scum-rationale for Huntress (unless its lurking) so that IF you are town and you DO get hung its all there to look at in one succinct place?

(CFR I'm still waiting: Who goes first?)
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Post Post #635 (isolation #55) » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:37 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Neither of MY suspects are on the pops wagon. Which, by nature, means that we share one in common... gee, who could that be.

And yes, that means I've spilled both of mine. ;)
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Post Post #648 (isolation #56) » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:43 am

Post by SpyreX »

OHh NOES I'm gonna get a pops vote.

So, yes, there is Huntress. Actively not participating and I still haven't managed to squeeze out of her why I'm scummy. Although she parallels this well with the no concrete reason to not suspect pops.

Then there is the power-voting for me out of the gate. Although she did suspect me yesterday (see above) this was still enough to stand out.

As for a Huntress wagon being scum fueled... maybe, IF there was ever a wagon. As it sits if I was scum I sure as hell would throw in my "me too" on this suspicion to blend.


Then we have Bio. Bio is only scummy circumstantially :P. I, for the most part, find his play to be town but:

1.) There is the very pro-pops feel most of D1.
2.) There is the whole issue with the CC ending up in Reds lynch which while I still don't think it makes AS much sense as for scum there is one scenario where it would work well - if you were the scum RB. There is, sans a cop report, no simple method to differentiate between a town jailer and a scum RB (the only way you could would be to get the "jailer" to commit to blocking a specific person AND that person dying via vig or other non-mafia killing role).
3.) The push on Jah when he got on pops... but then the vanishing act.

So, yea. I'd much rather vote Huntress but that is looming in the back of my head.


As for OGML... he's been a conundrum. I was semi-suspicious but I can't shake the feeling that with this day going the way it is the last thing a scum would do would be replace out (consider how many people we have responding to prods saying they'll post and not). So, actually admitting and getting replaced (even though I hate replacements) does give some pro-town vibes to me. Moreso than Huntress for sure.

Unless OGML saw pops going up the rope and gave up because he thought it was unwinnable. :P
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Post Post #655 (isolation #57) » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:59 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Thats beautiful. :P

Jah:

I'm not saying his PLAY was A+ pro-town. I am saying getting replaced versus doing what he could have done if sucm, is.
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Post Post #660 (isolation #58) » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:00 pm

Post by SpyreX »

... I need to read this when I am awake, but I will say this: POST MORE IN THIS GAME ESPECIALLY OF THIS MAGNITUDE GOD.

<3

I still want pops lynched though. :P I'll have to read and really weigh on that.
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Post Post #682 (isolation #59) » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:22 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Just blew my entire set of words in my other game. I'll post here tomorrow for reals. MAD REALS.
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Post Post #709 (isolation #60) » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:01 pm

Post by SpyreX »

No lynch removes the mylo issue to a good ol' fashioned lylo.

Not saying we shouldn't chat it up today, but I'm thinking NL as well.

Ohh, nice touche' Bio.

More words later.
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Post Post #713 (isolation #61) » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:46 am

Post by SpyreX »

With the 1-kills each night the only caveat would be that IF there are two kills tonight we're boned on a couple fronts.

I see that as highly unlikely, however.

So, I'll go ahead and be that guy

Vote: No Lynch


I want to reread with my full tinfoil hat on. Hopefully that'll be tonight/tomorrow because I'm lookin like V/LA from Thurs/Sun
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Post Post #719 (isolation #62) » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:07 am

Post by SpyreX »

Actually I don't think it's too early to talk about it if we really are in lylo, which we more or less are if we have a group of three scum, but perhaps you know otherwise? Why don't you think it's a good idea? When do you think would be a better time?
If there is three allied scum then today is NOT lylo - it is mylo. There's no "more or less" about it. That is why no lynching makes sense.
Having thought about a No lynch I've come to the conclusion that the ones who have most to gain from it are the scum, especially if one or more of them have been attracting attention. Or maybe it's just seeing that my two top suspects are the first to vote for it that is putting me off for the moment.
We'll leave aside the fact you still haven't given this "case" on me, but - how does no lynching today alter any suspicion anyone has?

The only negative(s) there are is 1.) the fact there is a 0% chance of hanging scum today and 2.) the possibility the NK is a power role.

I'm fairly sure that is outweighed by the fact that if we lynch wrong we lose the game.

So, please elaborate - business like this does make me want to lynch. You.
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Post Post #731 (isolation #63) » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:53 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Hmm.

Ok, convince me Bio:

We've had a jailer flip and a doc flip now.

3 Protective roles is a bit much.

Why, even though your play has been decent, should you not dangle right now?
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Post Post #733 (isolation #64) » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:20 pm

Post by SpyreX »

The jailer is definitely not as powerful as a cop or a doc, but it IS a protective role.

My beef is with 3 already known protective roles in a mini.

However, as you can tell, now is not the time for haste.

It IS time for a massclaim though.
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Post Post #737 (isolation #65) » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:47 am

Post by SpyreX »

I would be honestly surprised at this point if we had two killing parties. Of course, I'm having a real hard time stomaching 3 protective roles as it sits.

I have absolutely no qualms "going first" if, and only if, Huntress and Rishi follow me in rapid succession.

In fact, because I do not want the day to be lost to a slap-and-tickle about who is going first I'll do so right now.

I'm....

...

Vanilla!

So, yes, Huntress is obviously here, so I personally would like her to go next.
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Post Post #751 (isolation #66) » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:28 am

Post by SpyreX »

Considering that everyone else claimed vanilla, I do believe BC - it would have been the ballsiest scum move to CC and just HOPE that there were no roles to screw that up.

Assume it is lylo from this point on.

I'm going to do a deeper review, but if I was throwing my vote down right now it would be Huntress. The play has been suspicious but culminated in the wanting a massclaim yesterday AND wanting to lynch versus the no lynch. The waiting around for what Rishi claimed business today also strikes an odd chord.

I'll try to get my tinfoil hat on and look at some other options, but as it sits Huntress is my call right now.
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Post Post #758 (isolation #67) » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:52 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I'll give a more substantial post in the next day or two but in direct response to CFR:

The big issue with her "SpyreX hate" is that it hasn't materialized into anything... its just there. And, really, its all she's done. Not a case, not anything refutable.. just "welp, SpyreX is scum" over and over - and its being a smokescreen for everything else going on.

So that bothers me from her play. Logistically, the play yesterday in regards to the lynch REALLY bother me as well.

I am..hesitant because there hasn't been any real anti-wagon except from you (and yours isn't even strong). I'd have expected far more push and pull with this being lylo.
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Post Post #766 (isolation #68) » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:40 am

Post by SpyreX »

I'm starting to see a Mor / Huntress connection with that business.

CFR:

I've been having the same issues with bio, but ultimately: do you think he CC'd Day 1 with the myriad of potential roles available to bust him to nail a JK?

If it was scum, it was balls-to-the-wall. I'm not seeing it.
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Post Post #779 (isolation #69) » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:40 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I was actually wondering why Rishi fell off the radar, so to speak, considering how hard his late lynch came in yesterday.

I'm finally committing on something I've been going back and forth about: I believe Bio. I wish he was more active but with the way things went down day 1 I can't stomach that much guts for that little scum gain.

I'm still hard on Rishi / Huntress with a third still unknown.
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Post Post #782 (isolation #70) » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:30 am

Post by SpyreX »

I'm waiting for replies to the above with baited breath.
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Post Post #786 (isolation #71) » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:39 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Wow, finally. Something to dig in and respond to.
My original suspicion of Spyrex was because of small things, such as his assumption in post 62 that someone had self-voted, which showed a willingness to accuse without checking facts, and some of his comments in post 119, part of which I referred to in post 161. At that point all my suspicions were low apart from RC.
Part one:

Yep, I hadn't caught up.. but accused? Accused who of what?
62 wrote: Ohh goodness another game starts with a self-vote spurring madness.

I'm out with work meetings all day, I'll try and post something of substance later on / tomorrow.
Part two:
161 wrote:How was it a shield? And where did I call out MME? I used him as an example to question Rhinox and later I followed up a comment that pops made about him but I never accused MME of anything.
Thats the only reference you made to anything I had said. Interestingly enough, it was about you.

So, assuming my 62 actually contained an accusation.. it'd be of you.
And 161 references me... in regards to you.
One thing that increased my suspicion of him was his "Lynch whomever" comment in post 367.

Yes, I thought that the fact that he seemed to be ignoring my case against RC, just quoting a comment I made at the end and implying that was all I had said to back up my vote, was a tell. Also his statement "when RC is lynched and comes up town", which could indicate that he knew RC's status.
Ok, again:
367 wrote: Funny thing is that, normally, I'm not abrasive. I become abrasive when I'm dealing with shit like "I'm anti-game" or "a tool" or what have you.

I'm not "abrasive" with the majority of this game. Just a few of you. Wonder why that is.

@Bio, et al:

I just dont have it in me to give a "real" case on either of them. So, I'm done raging against the machine for Day 1.

I'm still holding by my group of three having at least A scum in there. And, ohh yes, expect a whole lot of "I told you so's" when this awesome wagon flips town (whichever it is).

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.
I put that in for context. Notice my "lynch whomever" statement
contextually
isn't "anyone" but a very small subset: Rhinox and RC. Whom I said over and over I thought were town. Hence my "when RC is lynched and comes up town" comment. I *gasp* was pretty sure I was right and lo and behold was.
It just seemed to be too much of a U-turn for him to assume that RC was lying when he had previously been so sure that he was town (see post 419). Particularly while saying that he had been expecting that RC would more likely than not claim jailer. It was too melodramatic and didn't ring true.
Context. Context. Context. Seriously.

IF it wasn't a matter of Bio (whom I found to be very towny) CC'ing him after everything else then yes it would have been quite the "U-Turn".

All data at that point suggested one of them was lying. It made more sense for the CC to be the one telling the truth.

As for melodrama. Yea, I thought I was wrong about something I was very sure of, so yea a little melodrama.

But, guess what.

Vote: Huntress


Every bit
of that is from Day 1. After that... nothing. You voted me on Day 2 out the gate and since then you have not voted nor even really put actual suspicion on anyone. You've floated on a sea of "busy. post later." and the only time you actually did is when you were about to go up the creek at lylo.

I'm gonna go ahead and call the entire scum team too. Ready for this:
Huntress, Rishi, Moriarty.

If I'm right about Huntress, which I think I am, Jah is <3. I cant see the bus coming out like this. Bio, by nature, I've come to accept is a jailer.

So, this lynch goes through my internal meter has 2 towns for sure tomorrow regardless of the NK. When Rishi blows I'd put my money on Moriarty for the last.

Swish.
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Post Post #791 (isolation #72) » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:04 am

Post by SpyreX »

Huntress has latched on to that "case" on me
and that is all she has done this game
. Not a vote, nothing since eearly day 2. Its been riding the wave, as it were.

I'll give you that its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. They're both scum for
similar
reasons.

A big reason why (although I'd vote for either) I'd like to see Huntress now is the town++ it gives me in my head to Jah. With Rishi already under the wagon, no reason to throw the other in a bus.

Hence, Rishi, Huntress, Moriarty.
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Post Post #798 (isolation #73) » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:18 am

Post by SpyreX »

Huntress wrote:You are misrepresenting the facts here when you claim that I wanted a mass claim AND a lynch. I did not. As for the waiting, at that point neither Moriarty nor Rishi had posted to comment on the mass claim and I had already stated that I wanted to see Rishi claim early so why should waiting for them strike an "odd chord"?
Hmm:
I'm going to have to think some more about the lynch/no lynch choice although at the moment I'm favouring no lynch based on the numbers. I can see advantages to both but I haven't really thought it through yet.

Is it too soon to talk about a mass claim?
Next post:
Actually I don't think it's too early to talk about it if we really are in lylo
, which we more or less are if we have a group of three scum, but perhaps you know otherwise? Why don't you think it's a good idea? When do you think would be a better time?

Having thought about a No lynch I've come to the conclusion that the ones who have most to gain from it are the scum
, especially if one or more of them have been attracting attention. Or maybe it's just seeing that my two top suspects are the first to vote for it that is putting me off for the moment.
Yea, I can see how I would misrepresent them. I mean its not like you mentioned them together in the same post, or anything right?

As for the odd chord - everyone chimes in saying they want you to go early. You reply with "I want Rishi
or
SpyreX to go first." I acquiesce (because, get this, as a vanilla it doesn't matter to me the order) and you STILL wait for Rishi.

Now, if you were a power role and mayhaps thought Rishi was going to claim so you could CC...maybe. Alas, vanilla. Thusly, it makes no sense.
What really bothers you about it?
The fact that a mislynch yesterday would have been the game? The fact that a massclaim in mylo is "Hey, lets out our PR's and hope to god we have a doctor so they aren't picked off".

Really, the fact that the combination of the two is about the worst maneuver the town could have done is what bothers me.
I didn't say "accused"; I said "willingness to accuse without checking facts". You said that the game had started with a self-vote which it hadn't.


And my reply was: how was it an accusation? What was I accusing? In fact, the ONLY way that could be considered an accusation instead of a general statement would be in regards to... you.
I don't follow this at all.
The only time you've made any reference to me was directly in regards to you. If one wants to
appear
to be scumhunting versus actually doing it: what is a good way to do that?
I never said it was.
One thing that increased my suspicion of him was his "Lynch whomever" comment in post 367.
You didn't? Then what the hell does the above mean?
First, I haven't made a "case" on you until now. Second, the part you put in italics is quite clearly not true. Third, I admit I was mostly absent during day two for reasons not related to this game but you can hardly claim I did nothing on day three when you have used what I said then against me.

Following on from post 784 I think that post and this one cover everything I have on Spyrex. My vote on him at the beginning of day two was in response to post 497. It was the most I had on anyone at the time so I acted on it. Add to that the things mentioned above and it confirms his position as one of my top suspects.
Yes, you haven't made a "case" on me until now - and you've been riding this since Day 1.

Aside from me, what have you done this game? I mean sure you can bring up the asking for a massclaim early and wanting a lynching in mylo. That's not what I mean - I mean looking for scum, but sure you can bring that up as a rebuttal.

I'd really like to see her lynched right about now. Seriously.
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Post Post #821 (isolation #74) » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:52 am

Post by SpyreX »

My personal bets for this hammer are much simpler: when Huntress flips scum, unless you look at some voodoo bussing AND/OR Bio having giant cahones... there's a lot less suspects to look at in the days ahead. A lot less.

Of course, that is partially because:
1.) We have had no nights of multikills thus I find it hard to believe in two scum factions at the moment.
--- My expected amount of scum in this game WOULD be three.

and (which more are going to take umbrage to) I know I am town.

Thus, if Huntress wasn't scum in the highest-probability scenario (3 scum 1 faction) the game would have been over.

In all other probable scenarios (2 scum, 2 scum 1 sk, 2 scumgroups of 2) this isn't really lylo and will be found out. Again, with only one NK I'd be surprised to see two killing factions so the only one we could look at in detail would be 2 scum. If thats the case, that only (personally) reaffirms that huntress is scum because this is a greater loss to the cause AND really lowers the chance of it being a bus in any fashion.
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Post Post #831 (isolation #75) » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:09 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I officially dont know what the hell this game.

I will be rereading.
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Post Post #833 (isolation #76) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:54 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Vote: No Lynch


I agree, regardless of what happens today it should end in NL.

I'm trying to figure out what happened. Can you post your list of Jails (including last night) again so I can look at it without hunting around.
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Post Post #836 (isolation #77) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:24 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Thats exactly why I wanted to know - now, after the NL its a tossup (assuming you're not scum in which case well... gg)

Either way we're, in essence, coming to lylo with a "mostly" confirmed.

Only problem is ONE of us are dying and Moriarity and Rishi (who have both been kinda blase) are left.
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Post Post #837 (isolation #78) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:27 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Actually...

Unvote


Wait a sec. IF we hang one of them today and it is the wrong one you JK the other and they get lynched tomorrow.

I know - this only works if you and I aren't scum. But, like I've said, if you're scum then its yours and I'm not scum (and that is backed up by your result).

What do you think?

I'm gonna WIFOM myself and say, today, I'd vote for Moriarty because I think the fact I've been pushing Rishi and Rishi and I still being alive is because he was expecting an easy lylo.
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Post Post #840 (isolation #79) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:24 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Fair enough. Although, really, its a 2-person gamble: we're both gambling that the other is town. :)

But, if the above is true thats game, set, match. A gamble I'm willing to take.
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Post Post #844 (isolation #80) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:19 am

Post by SpyreX »

My plan: if I or BC are scum, scum wins. If either of you are scum, town wins.

Chances of BC being scum: minimal (I will actively applaud you if you are).

Looking at what both of you suggested further makes me believe its Mor - that reaks of flailing knowing that, as scum, you are boned.

Vote: Moriarty
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Post Post #848 (isolation #81) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:49 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Ok, lets break this down before we lynch you and win:

My Plan (Killing Moriarty, blocking/lynching Rishi if the game continues):

Town Loses:

If Bio is scum.
If I am scum
If the remaining mafia member can roleblock AND kill AND the roleblock comes before the jailing.

Town Wins:

All other scenarios

Your Plan (No Lynch today, BC says the jail target, NK lynch that person, otherwise clear)

Scenarios:
1.) There is a NK - next day starts with 4.
--- BC's jail target was scum.
--- Scum sent in a NL
Options: Lynch jail target. If game continues, BC then jails. If BC jails incorrectly, game over.
Probable Results: IF BC doesn't jail me, we are exactly where we are with this plan. It just takes longer.
2.) There is a Kill - next day starts with 3.
--- IF BC dies:
------ BC's jail target definitely wasn't scum.
------ It then plays out with the same 50/50 shot as my plan.
--- IF BC doesn't die:
------ BC is scum.
------ BC jailed town, scum killed the other.
------ As I'm not voting for BC, again this plays out like my above plan.
Probable Results: Chances are this wouldn't happen. If BC is killed then it is a town win (BC's results on me yesterday would clear me 100%+ the person jailed couldn't be scum, thus win). If I am killed then BC + jail target lynch the final. So, chances of scum doing this are minimal. BC being scum, again, is a scum win.

So, unless I'm missing something:

Your plan is a more complicated version of what I am that STILL will end in a scum win if BC is scum.

So, really it boils down to this no matter how you cut it:

If BC is town, it is a win today.
If BC is scum, it is going to be a loss (because I'm not voting for him).

My version just gives room for a mislynch today/speeds up the entire process. Only real difference.
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Post Post #852 (isolation #82) » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:55 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Thing is: it doesn't matter. CFR could have not said a word all game.

I'm banking on one simple fact: Bio isn't scum.

If that is true then its game.

Lets grease up this pig: although I have a caveat - I want Bio to drop the hammer so he can IMMEDIATELY send in his night action (I took a look at night action resolution on the OP). Or, if the mod allows, send it in right damn now.
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Post Post #855 (isolation #83) » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:16 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I think thats the right course of action.

However, IF rule 11 applies to cross-kills then that means I am by no means confirmed as it could have played out:

CFR - RB's Bio
Jah - Kills CFR
SpyreX - Kills Jah

But, of course, I'm town so. :P
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Post Post #857 (isolation #84) » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:21 pm

Post by SpyreX »

GOD, I keep trying to apply NAR to it. :P

You're right, I'm clear and awesome. Lets win.
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Post Post #863 (isolation #85) » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:22 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Ohh sup

Vote: Rishi
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Post Post #867 (isolation #86) » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:54 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Minus the during-night prod and a little confusion I got from how night actions worked, I had absolutely no problems with your Modding Vi. I thought you did an absolutely stellar job would play again A++.

I REALLY liked throwing two jailers in. Looking back at day one I should have held to my guns about RC a bit more.

Dear SK & Mafia: Why not even a shot at bio? I mean, the jailer is about the worst role to have alive at endgame for reasons like above. It would have been a whole different ball if Bio was dead - I'd have probably gotten strung up for my line of chain lynches on town.

I did learn some (I do feel bad about Pops in retrospect) but I STILL hold to the huntress lynch AND the day one lynch (before the claim) being blaze at best.

Jah did a good job staying under my radar. CFR too. Rishi, well. :P

Overall, great game though.
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