Mini 733- Congratulations! You are... Mafia (Game Over)

[Isacc]

Kmd, but my plan wouldn't have Des die. It would only have him provide a reaction.

See, a death resulting from my plan only follows if you are assuming I am a liar. However, the only reason you have been giving to suspect my lying, is that a death would have resulted from my plan. You can deny it all you want, but your logic

is

circular.

If you continue to not understand this, then I am going to stop explaining it to you, as you are not understanding simple common sense.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, but my plan wouldn't have Des die. It would only have him provide a reaction.

Do I have to say it again? This is the last time.

THIS IS THE EXPLANATION THAT I DON'T BELIEVE

See, a death resulting from my plan only follows if you are assuming I am a liar. However, the only reason you have been giving to suspect my lying, is that a death would have resulted from my plan. You can deny it all you want, but your logic

is

circular.

NO. YOU ASKED DES TO BE MODKILLED OR LYNCHED. THAT WAS SCUMMY. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY THAT YOU WERE ONLY AFTER HIS REACTION

Do you get it now?

[Isacc]

WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

Are you retarded? I keep asking you WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE ME. The only answer you are giving me is BECAUSE OF MY PLAN. LEARN TO READ.

[Kmd4390]

Because I think you made a plan to try and get a player killed and then tried to pass it off as a Gambit when it didn't work.

[Isacc]

That isn't an explanation. WHY do you think that?

[Kmd4390]

General feel I guess.

[destructor]

Hi, just got wireless internet working from school.
Saved a copy of the game. Will read tonight and draft a post up for the next time I get online.

From the bits I've skimmed:
- Isaac-wagon is not great.
- Sly may or may not be scum. Him not being lynched doesn't do anything to prove his innocence.
- imaginality is giving me a REALLY bad vibe. I'll try to pin it down in my read.
- hascow too, though not as much.
- not sure what I'm thinking of elvis.
- Glork needs to post more.

What's the deal with the orange juice, cide and coat rack disappearing from the votecount?

[Plum]

Sorry for any absence etc. Bit of analysis and responses to EK:

Is this it? You have a problem with the me seeing sly's slip?

I have a problem that you state with such conviction that it was a slip, because I don't see that it was any sort of explicit tell at all.

Imaginality suggested it and EK echoed it in no uncertain terms. When Sly explained the above reason as to why he specified 'you (townies)', she deftly changes the subject. Fos: elvis_knits.

Well, I have noticed that people never like it when I call out slips or tells. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it's because other people don't rely on gut-reaction tells as much as I do. I tend to hit on small things that don't make sense to me. Often, a small thing will make me look harder at a person, and either through questions or through looking at their other posts, I get more (or less) convinced of them being scummy. Maybe this is not how other people work?

Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.

As to "deftly changing the subject" I don't remember doing that.

First paragraph is a long ramble about how sometimes you will hit on small things during the course of your scumhunt, and how people 'never like it' when you call out slips or tells. I don't care either way, just that you're arguing that something is a slip when it clearly isn't. Ramble smacks of subtle meta defense, which I generally consider a fairly mild scumtell.

Second paragraph also contains a fair amount of filler, but whatever: Did you reread the exchange and notice that Sly had two short posts using only 'you' pronouns. The first was directed at Darox. The second was phrased fairly naturally in a sentence structure which required parenthetical clarification as to who 'you' referred to, as in the last post it had been Darox, not the town at large.

Deftly changing the subject:

You accused Sly, in no uncertain terms, as having shown a scum slip. Sly commented in his usual kinda useless way, and you told him you were suspicious of the fact that he didn't include himself in the 'town' group. Sly elaborated. Instead of either continuing the argument, or ending it with a statement that 'I still see it as a slip/sorry, my bad' and continuing on, you turned to a completely different subject. You made an incorrect accusation, discussed it, and, Sly having elaborated, you ignore the discussion on your bad accusation and turn the conversation towards Sly's apparently evolving degree of claimed lynch-proofness. He'd already shown it to be varied and/or evolving, at any rate. If you'd been suspicious he'd been lying, you might have brought it up before. As it is, it looks like a convenient attack to pick up when your attack fell flat due to its incorrectness.

"Got distracted" is code for "changed the subject to."

I'm not liking your explanation here. I don't buy it at all. I don't see how SlySly changed the subject, and the fact remains you jumped from "Your word choice is suspicious," to "That one part of your last defense is suspicious."

QFTrufax.

Best member of the Tea party, Mad Hatter or the Sleepy Dormouse?

Dormouse, which might have become my dominant internet handle if not for stuff.

The poor fools gathered around one of their own, SlySly

Does this statement mean anything to anyone besides myself?

Yes, it means that flavor has acknowledged that you're among the living players in this game. I.e.: Congratulations, you are... a player in Congratulations, you are... Mafia. Would you like a medal? N, I don't believe it's in any way indicative of your alignment. Sorry.

Back to EK and suchlike:

If you want to call it that, okay. Maybe I did change the subject, but guess I just don't understand what was weird about it. I stand by the "slip" remark, and I've explaned it numerous times. The fact that I may sometimes talk about other things, doesn't mean anything. It's not like I didn't want to talk about the slip. I've talked about it a lot. We can talk about it all day. I don't understand the problem with me having multiple points and going from one to the other.

I have a problem that you're standing by the 'slip remark', and I have a problem that when Sly argued well against it, you did not acknowledge your mistake or choose to continue the discussion. You changed to topic, possibly in an attempt to save face.

cow because he went on Isaac's witch hunt against des.

Um, I didn't think Isacc's ultimatum against des was a good thing, I wanted clarification on the German thing after zazier said she couldn't speak English.

Rescan confirms Cow's side of the argument. He did not support Isacc's stupid plan/gambit/whatever. He, along with others, questioned and voted Destructor before Des' explanation. This doesn't make me any less suspicious of you, but you did say you needed to do a rescan or something, didn't you? I'll deal with not hounding you on this count.

Sly sees the fact that flavor doesn't in any way confirm him to be town. That's good. Could unlynchable scum exist in theory? Sly seemed to say that if he could be found and caught (I paraphrase) he could be killed. Is there a role or mechanic that would allow that to happen? My gut says yes, whether or not he's town or scum. Sly's in no way confirmed by the fact that our attempt to lynch him failed right now, I think.

The Isacc wagon: Yes, I see Isacc's gambit/whatever as potentially scummy, as the gambit was so stupid, so scummy-looking on the surface, and so, yes, stupid . . .

The thing is, Isacc, if you though you could get reactions from Des out of it, relative to how she reacted - always with some variation on 'acceptance'. If you were stupid enough to think that she'd accept a plan to get herself modkilled, it's far from impossible that you're scum whose gambit was really one to try to get Des modkilled. That said, my gut feelings do not point me in that direction. Stupid, but chance of stupid town is great enough.

[caf19]

Ah, it's nice to be able to read a thread without getting goatse'd.

@Sly/Caf, look closely at your role PMs. Does anything indicate that we can help each other out?

Not sure what you mean. I don't have anything about gnomes, you or Sly. Perhaps if you could clarify what sort of help you're looking for, I might be able to say.

Caf, do you know where you are selling lemonade from? Is it by any chance Florida?

No specific place is mentioned, and place in general doesn't seem important to my role. There are references to generically American things/products/concepts though. It's possible I could be in Florida, I guess.

[Isacc]

Plum: If other town members had supported the plan, understanding it was a gambit, the pressure would have forced Destructor to accept. It was the fact that the other people in this game did not like the idea that made it a bad plan, however you cannot attest that among other players the plan would still have failed.

And yes, I see that it's possible my gambit was actually to try and get him killed, and that my explanation is a lie. However, if someone believes I was lying, I want an actual reason they are suspicious with me outside of the plan (due to the fact that, as I explained, that would be circular logic). I have no problem with people attacking me for my plan, as long as they provide good backing. Kmd has not done so. His argument is "I feel like you are scummy." That is weak.

And I am still supporting the arguments on EK, however I still want to do my PBPA of Darox first, which I haven't had time to.

[imaginality]

Ma-ia hii
Ma-ia huu
Ma-ia hoo
Ma-ia haha

Ma-ia hii
Ma-ia huu
Ma-ia hoo
Ma-ia haha

Ma-ia hii
Ma-ia huu
Ma-ia hoo
Ma-ia haha

[destructor]

Plum: If other town members had supported the plan, understanding it was a gambit, the pressure would have forced Destructor to accept. It was the fact that the other people in this game did not like the idea that made it a bad plan, however you cannot attest that among other players the plan would still have failed.

The plan was always going to fail because I'm not an idiot. In fact, the plan would have failed with ANY player who isn't an idiot.

No player with half a brain's worth of mafia theory knowledge would accept a plan that will inevitably result in their death REGARDLESS of their alignment, which is EXACTLY what the plan you proposed was.

What you're saying you hoped to see happen was incredibly short-sighted.

What made you think that the rest of the town might "get" that it was a gambit but that I wouldn't?

[Isacc]

I never thought you wouldn't get that it was a gambit. However, you knowing it was a gambit wouldn't have stopped it from working. You couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for.

[Plum]

I never thought you wouldn't get that it was a gambit. However, you knowing it was a gambit wouldn't have stopped it from working. You couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for.

That doesn't mean much, considering the fact that all of the reactions you said afterwards you were looking for revolved around Des accepting your plan for her to risk modkill. Which would never occur unless Des got a major lobotomy first. Which wasn't about to happen. It was a stupid gambit. Knowing it was meant as a gambit downgrades it from 'really scummy' to ' verging on null because it's that freaking ridiculous to read'. I can just see it's possible that a townie with no foresight at all did it thinking it might actually bear some fruit, but it makes such little sense at all.

[SlySly]

I have no lawn gnome and for the record, I think Issac's plan was stupid too.

[Darox]

I never thought you wouldn't get that it was a gambit. However, you knowing it was a gambit wouldn't have stopped it from working. You couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for.

Point is, the only reaction you would expect for every spectrum of alignments and the truth behind the potential modkill, is refuse.

There was no good reason for destructor to agree to your plan, no matter what he was.

Your plan makes so little sense I think it could hold its own in a pingpong match against an aggravated keep left sign.

[Isacc]

@Plum and Darox: He wouldn't have accepted IF PEOPLE WEREN'T PUTTING PRESSURE. You keep forgetting that part. If people had agreed, and threatened the lynch, he would have had to accept, which is why I was hoping I could get a reaction involving acceptance.

[Mirth]

Votecount

Sly - 8789 - [Dahill, des, cow, Darox]
Elvis - 28792 -[Plum]
Isacc - 294 - [Kmd, imaginality]
PJ - 8 - [Glork]

Not Voting - 98098409280 - [Caf, Isacc, Sly, Elvis]

Cups of Lemonade Bought: 1

Sorry, all out of lawn gnomes, sold the last five to an old couple.

[caf19]

@Plum and Darox: He wouldn't have accepted IF PEOPLE WEREN'T PUTTING PRESSURE. You keep forgetting that part. If people had agreed, and threatened the lynch, he would have had to accept, which is why I was hoping I could get a reaction involving acceptance.

If the acceptance of the town in general was so vital to your plan, why at the time did you say this:

Guys, I asked Destructor's agreement. Everyone else's consent was not necessary. I hope you will all trust me in that I think Destructer will agree to my demands, for his own good.

Clearly everyone's consent was in fact necessary. Don't understand why you'd mislead the town like that.

[Kmd4390]

@Sly/Caf, look closely at your role PMs. Does anything indicate that we can help each other out?

Not sure what you mean. I don't have anything about gnomes, you or Sly. Perhaps if you could clarify what sort of help you're looking for, I might be able to say.

Well I have to collect gnomes and my role PM subtly hints at the possibility of help. I was curious if you or anyone else had noticed the subtle hint in your PM.

Caf, do you know where you are selling lemonade from? Is it by any chance Florida?

No specific place is mentioned, and place in general doesn't seem important to my role. There are references to generically American things/products/concepts though. It's possible I could be in Florida, I guess.

If it's Florida, that's helpful. I'm already pretty sure Des, Glork, and Imaginality can't help me.

And yes,

I see that it's possible my gambit was actually to try and get him killed, and that my explanation is a lie.

However, if someone believes I was lying, I want an actual reason they are suspicious with me outside of the plan (due to the fact that, as I explained, that would be circular logic). I have no problem with people attacking me for my plan, as long as they provide good backing. Kmd has not done so. His argument is "I feel like you are scummy." That is weak.

My argument is NOT "I feel like you are scummy." My argument is bolded above in your post.

Why don't you consider this an "actual reason"? I've explained more than enough why it isn't circular logic at all, so I'm not about to do that again.

No player with half a brain's worth of mafia theory knowledge would accept a plan that will inevitably result in their death REGARDLESS of their alignment, which is EXACTLY what the plan you proposed was.

There are exceptions to this, but very few. (For example, a scummy vig being asked to shoot themself.)

I never thought you wouldn't get that it was a gambit. However, you knowing it was a gambit wouldn't have stopped it from working. You couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for.

So if Des knew you were after reactions, and the reaction would probably be crafted, what good would the crafted reaction do? Even when town, human nature is to try and go for the reaction that seems best.

I have no lawn gnome and for the record, I think Issac's plan was stupid too.

I don't expect that you have a gnome. I think Caf probably has my gnome. I do expect that you have a hint in your role PM towards someone being able to help you, or you being able to help someone else.

@Plum and Darox: He wouldn't have accepted IF PEOPLE WEREN'T PUTTING PRESSURE. You keep forgetting that part. If people had agreed, and threatened the lynch, he would have had to accept, which is why I was hoping I could get a reaction involving acceptance.

So you expect to come up with a plan that basically says "Be Modkilled or Be Lynched", not take any heat for it, and have that plan agreed to? All for reactions? Not likely.

Sorry, all out of lawn gnomes, sold the last five to an old couple.[/color]

Hmm.

Buy Lawn Gnome from caf19

Fixed quote tags

[Isacc]

@Caf1: Yes, that was not one of my finest/smartest moments. I was mostly frustrated that people going against me all of the sudden was going to give Destructor a chance to refuse the plan, which is basically what happened, and I definitely didn't handle it well.

@Kmd: Your argument IS that you feel I am scummy. You have NOT explained that it isn't circular logic (because it IS), in fact I have shown quotes of you where you word for word made a circular argument.

You have no case because you have not given any reason to suspect me of lying. That means, you have no case.

About your "If Des knew you wanted a reaction," If you read the quote you JUST quoted, I said that Destructor couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for, so they

wouldn't

be crafted. Christ, you have no clue what you are even saying. It's like arguing with Empking. No wonder Dahill found you scummy earlier.


Still haven't gotten to that PBPA. Sorry.

[Plum]

About your "If Des knew you wanted a reaction," If you read the quote you JUST quoted, I said that Destructor couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for, so they

wouldn't

be crafted. Christ, you have no clue what you are even saying. It's like arguing with Empking. No wonder Dahill found you scummy earlier.

I never thought you wouldn't get that it was a gambit. However, you knowing it was a gambit wouldn't have stopped it from working. You couldn't have known what reactions I was looking for.

That doesn't mean much, considering the fact that all of the reactions you said afterwards you were looking for revolved around Des accepting your plan for her to risk modkill. Which would never occur unless Des got a major lobotomy first. Which wasn't about to happen.

The reactions might not have been crafted, but they'd sure as heck have been meaningless along your scale anyway. Any realistic reaction from Des whatever her alignment or honety would have been 'you're crazy if you think I'll risk a modkill like that'. The reactions would have been worthless. Knowing it was a gambit just takes the second reaction from 'Isacc is really scummy for suggesting this' to 'Isacc is stupid'.

[destructor]

Hi, the following is the post I drafted up last night. I'll try to catch up on the rest after I post this:

I want to touch on the kmd wagon first. dahill, caf, Sly, Darox and imaginality join in on the topic. dahill IGMEOY's kmd for saying his vote was not bandwagoning, which is weak, so far as a tell goes, but then an IGMEOY would seem appropriate. caf asks Kmd about the truth of him saying he always voted Zaz. This is fine, but I wonder what the point of this question was. Why would kmd lie about this if he knew Zaz would call him on it? Darox makes a pretty weak jab at kmd in 211. dahill eventually votes kmd for no reason I can comprehend. His confirm vote make even less sense.

That said, I felt like dahill eventually demonstrated a reasonable basis for his behaviour. caf's take on the situation was reasonable too. Darox just came across as completely opportunistic. I don't see what gave Sly the impression that kmd was being "too defensive" (254. imaginality jumps on board dahill's case, which caf, Isaac, Plumb and myself disagreed with. I didn't like the case he eventually made, which leads me into...

Bad vibes on imaginality:
Starts from 167, after dahill pointed out the weak reasoning for his FOS on caf. He says that the "death cult" wasn't his main reason. He goes on to dissect one of caf's posts and say that his issues with that were the real reasons for his FOS, but why didn't he state those in the first place? Look at the way he over-analyses the post, commenting on parts of it that have no relevance to his actual argument. It makes the whole thing look like a big backtrack done on the fly.

His case on kmd seemed reachy. I particularly didn't like this:

Together, in absence of anythingk elz much, I am finding Kmd4390 slightly scummy which is more than most others.

In the absece of anything else? Why isn't he worried about Coheed's lurking? Or Darox's meagre contributions?

His jab at Sly for his "you (townies)" comment was reachy too. His recent comments about Isaac being scummy seem similarly opportunistic.

---

On Glork, I'd like to see a claim. If he can't vote for any player in this game, he's useless to the town besides through scum-hunting, but he's hardly been doing any of that.

I find it unlikely that he's scum faking a vote restriction, but, unlike Sly suggested in 526, I don't see why that mean he couldn't be scum who actually HAS a vote restriction. Whatever the case, he's a serious liability to the town because that's one vote we KNOW will never land on scum.

What this means is that with Glork alive, we'd be in lylo one day early.

So, Glork, if you can't vote for anyone, I think you should claim right now and explain to us why we should be keeping yo alive.

---

Out of curiosity, who else was asked to post kittens and stuff?

---

Darox, why did you single Glork and EK out earlier on?
Also, why did you think Glork having a second vote in the vote count was suspicious?

dahill, what was with this?

on sly, buying lemonade was anti-town. getting a few alien vibes here and there. not scum vibes per say, but alien vibes.

And this?

hascow, what did this mean:

Sly seems a bit IIoA, don't like that. He's also a fraud.

Fraud?

and eef you did not asked mod re. pozt restriction, vhy not, do you think PM is already clear enough on zis matter?

I didn't ask Mirth about it because it seemed clear enough to me and I figured Mirth would have given me as much info about my role in my PM as she intended to already. Nothing implied that I HAD to post exclusively in German. I never felt that this was a point of ambiguity. What is ambiguous is how much/how often I need to, if at all.

Sly, why did you imply that the lemonade had done something to change your role?

but Sly just hung there nonchalantly, getting rather bored and annoyed that he was going to miss his Gilmore Girls reruns if they left him up there all day.

LOL

@Everyone, part 2: So what do we think about the lynch? Does the flavor discredit SlySly's roleclaim, or is it just done so that Mirth can screw with us and we won't know if he's really a Sasquatch? Personally, I think the second is more likely, and I'm inclined to believe that Sly's role claim was honest.

I'm inclined not to read into flavour. Sly said he thought the lynch would fail, and that's what happened. We can't know for certain why this happened, but it seems likely that it was something related to Sly's role.

I had good reason to think a lynch on me would fail so I had no fear whatsoever in doing things that could be taken as scummy. You doubted me and wasted time trying to lynch me.

If you're town,

wtf

? How the hell is it pro-town to do things that you know are scummy, will cause distractions and make noise? Survival ISN'T part of a pro-town players win condition, so why did you do things that you

knew

would be to the detriment of the scum-hunt just because you thought you'd survive a lynch? What makes you think you can accuse

us

of "wasting time" when it was what

you

did that caused us to waste it in the first place?! Seriously, what the fuck were you thinking? You're either a townie who's being a complete dumbass or scum. Which is it?

ASDFDSAF.

I seriously doubt Sly is scum after the non-lynch.

Why? I see he answers in 578 - because he thinks unlynchable scum is unbalanced. This is on the assumption that Sly is truly unlynchable and will be forever. [see below]

On that, I'm wonder how Sly not being lynched has any bearing on the bulk of the case on him. imaginality says it'd be "better to look for scum elsewhere", but why?

I found it interesting that sly still has seven votes on him. The VC didn't reset. He has seven votes on him and continues to live. So I guess we can't lynch him today.

Actually, in Weasles Mafia, undo had a role that required L+2 votes to lynch. Anyone up for trying to put more votes on Sly to see what happens?

---

Re: Isaac and his gambit, I think the way he phrased some of his posts before he got heaps of heat for it imply that he was thinking about it as a gambit. He tells caf that he should "think more" about it and that he thinks his townies will see the benefit of the plan without elaboration. That all gives me a strong impression that Isaac was indeed thinking about something other than modkilling/lynching me.

Also, there seem to be two "plans" that get referred to. The first is the one he proposed - that I stop posting German and get lynched if I do. That was a bad plan. The second plan is his gambit - that he would use the manner in which I agreed to it to gauge my alignment. This wasn't a great plan either, but doesn't come across as scummy either.

I think kmd and co. are arguing that plan 2 never existed and that plan 1 was scummy. As I said, I picked up on breadcrumbs that appear to support Isaac's claim that he was trying a gambit so I believe he's telling the truth. If I hadn't have picked up on those, I'd be more willing to believe he was lying about it and so it'd be easier to see him having suggested plan 1 with insidious intentions.



Now that that's done, I think Darox needs to die.

Condorcet

Vote: Darox

, imaginality, Glork, {SlySly, hasdgfas}



caf, what will happen if you don't sell 3 cups of lemonade? You implied that you may die. What made you think that?

[hasdgfas]

hascow, what did this mean:

Sly seems a bit IIoA, don't like that. He's also a fraud.

Fraud?

IIoA is information instead of analysis. He was saying more observations instead of analysing what was going on and trying to find scum.

Fraud: half-joke/half role-related

[SlySly]

Sly, why did you imply that the lemonade had done something to change your role?

To give everyone something to speculate about. Keep reading, it may make more sense to you.

If you're town,

wtf

? How the hell is it pro-town to do things that you know are scummy, will cause distractions and make noise?

Once the wagon on me started, I knew no one believed me that the lynch would fail, so I poured on much questionable play as I could so I would receive enough votes for a lynch and everyone would see there was truth to what I was saying.

What makes you think you can accuse

us

of "wasting time" when it was what

you

did that caused us to waste it in the first place?! Seriously, what the fuck were you thinking? You're either a townie who's being a complete dumbass or scum. Which is it?

I stated early not to waste time trying to lynch me, you guys chose to ignore that, so dont blame me for wasting the time. I did as much as I could to get the votes needed for a lynch on me as quickly as possible so you could see there was truth to what I was saying and move on from me with as much time left as possible before the deadline.

Actually, in Weasles Mafia, undo had a role that required L+2 votes to lynch. Anyone up for trying to put more votes on Sly to see what happens?

That is not the case in this game. You can try as many times as you like to lynch me today and it is not going to happen, even if you get everyone to vote me. I am a young healthy sasquatch and I will not be caught while in my prime. As the game progresses, if you still feel I am scum, feel free to try to lynch me again. The odds of lynching me could be higher as I get older.

---------------------------

With that being said, I consider anyone pushing my lynch further today to be scum. The harder you push, the scummier you become. This is not a flexible frustration stance like the foreign language one was.

vote:Dahill