Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[SpyreX]

Just because I dont copy and paste a list of the reasons I was voting for you yesterday (and still am) or the reasons I made clear with your terrible NK conjecture today in every post doesn't mean its a simple mantra of "Pops is scum" without backing.

I mean, if you really want I COULD copy and paste that in every post I address to you, but that doesn't change a thing except make my posts longer and harder to read.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

popsofctown (L-3) ~ SpyreX, CF Riot, iamausername

SpyreX (L-5) ~ Huntress
Jahudo (L-5) ~ bionicchop2

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

bionicchop2,

Jahudo, Moriarty147, OhGodMyLife, Rishi, popsofctown
[size=0]bionicchop2 - 0 | Huntress - 1 | iamausername - 1 PROD1 2 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 0 | Moriarty147 - 1 PROD1 6 | OhGodMyLife - 1 PROD1 2 | popsofctown - 0 | Rishi - 1 PROD1 6 | SpyreX - 0[/size]

First Deadline Review: Sunday, March 15 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, March 19 2009

[popsofctown]

@CFRiot: i contested them. If you believe i was unsuccessful in refuting him, that's no excuse for him to repeat his conclusion with impossible sureness over and over again.

[SpyreX]

Its not a function of "impossible sureness". It is a function of your play, that is all.

The early exchange between you and Korts was, to me, suspicious. Like I have said again and again the cognitive dissonance between saying, explicitly, you do not like fluff and then actively and purposely contributing fluff is scummy.

Your case on Rhinox heavily utilized AtE as being a massive scumtell. Yet, you have repeatedly made statments that, in fact, are giant AtE's.

Your case on RC was based on a small-sample meta. I'm not going to go into (again) why that is scummy, but it is.

You were quick to utilize another players use of meta to defend yourself, yet in the same breath say you weren't. Furthermore, in the whole meta discussion you pulled out of the ether a reason to vote for me that, as per usual, isn't based on in-game play.

Then, there was coming out of the gate day 2. The "I am scum and said Rhinox was town therefore killed Rhinox (the claimed vanilla) and also other people have said I am scummy but when pressed what "other people" meant it was really just Huntress" post in and of itself is damn near voteworthy. Combined with everything else, well.

Also, rereading this mess AGAIN has led me to another one to add to this pile. You've been claiming, over and over, that I am simply saying you are scum without reasons (which isn't true). However, rereading I noticed something - everyone, look at pops posts and search for the word town. If I'm somehow the bad guy for saying he's scum without reasons... the repetition fallacy would also be committed by pops for saying he's town.

Even without all that, the reread "I'm town" business is well, awesome.

And there's the whole bipolar-posting you do in regards to me: sometimes you dismiss me, sometimes you troll me, sometimes you act like I'm the big-bad wolf..... I dont get that either.

So yes I have IMPOSSIBLE SURENESS without reason. I am simply yelling from the rooftops that you are scum.

Or, based on your play above which I have been saying for quite a while now, you are scum.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

popsofctown (L-3) ~ SpyreX, CF Riot, iamausername

SpyreX (L-5) ~ Huntress
Jahudo (L-5) ~ bionicchop2

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Jahudo, Moriarty147, OhGodMyLife, Rishi, popsofctown
[size=0]bionicchop2 - 1 | Huntress - 2 | iamausername - 2 PROD1 3 | Jahudo - 1 | CF Riot - 1 | Moriarty147 - 2 PROD1 7 | OhGodMyLife - 2 PROD1 3 | popsofctown - 0 | Rishi - 2 PROD1 7 | SpyreX - 0[/size]

First Deadline Review: Sunday, March 15 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, March 19 2009

-----

Amazingly, nobody needs a prod today.

Activity is what I would consider "disappointing" as of late.

[Huntress]

I've nearly finished my re-read, should be finished later today or tomorrow.

[popsofctown]

When did i say i hate fluff? When?

[iamausername]

And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

Why say "multiple people" at all when you know that is a lie?

Uh, wow, this is really hostile. I thought it was more than one person, it might have just been one. I don't know why you assume that

i know

exactly one person said it. By what evidence did you decide i knew exactly one person said it but put it the way i did anyway? There's a lot of hypocrisy in your post really, since you are "lying" about a lie i didn't tell, and the hypocrisy you admitted to.

Well, you said "maybe it was just one person but it's still fishy". From that, I somehow drew the conclusion that you might have had some inkling that there were not multiple people calling SpyreX scum without reasons.

But OK, fine. If you're saying you weren't sure if there was anyone besides Huntress doing that, don't you think it might have been a good idea to go back and check before using that assumption as the basis for a vote?

I totally agree that this is a possibility. I also don't like that pops seems to be backtracking on his suspicion of SpyreX. Does he really think he's wrong or is he just trying to avoid a lynch?

How would backtracking on his SpyreX suspicion help him avoid a lynch?

@people accusing me of backtracking- please, no. Am i not allowed to be wrong? I never said that my position was a stump, but people immediately started blowing it up and saying i was "taking a position". It was an L-max vote, the only people who made it seem like anything more than a vote on a notion were people misrepping me, not me.

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!,

who seems scummy anyway

. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?). And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

vote: Spyrex

Yes, I can't imagine why people reading this would get the idea that you were actually saying SpyreX was scummy. Protip: people claiming that you said something that you did, in fact, say are not "misrepresenting" anything.

We saw the spotlight shine on two town players all of day 1. Maybe letting the spotlight fall where it may is not a good plan here guys.

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

It really, really isn't. SpyreX was getting along just fine pushing the underdog pops wagon yesterday, so why would Rhinox's survival change that today? Either the suspicion of Rhinox from yesterday would be enough to get him lynched today without scumSpyreX's help, or the growing support for the pops agon towards the end of the day would continue enough to get him lynched today. From the position that pops is claiming to hold, that's a town lynch either way, and a strong likelihood of one where SpyreX doesn't get his hands dirty by being part of it, so why would he think scumSpyreX would want to avoid that situation?

I was assuming Pops was looking further ahead than just the next round and was thinking of a possible lylo situation, but I guess he wasn't as he seemed to retract it after you wrote this.

I don't see how my point doesn't make just as much sense extended further ahead. How does SpyreX look any more suspicious in a lylo situation where Rhinox was left alive to be the Day 2 lynch vs. a lylo situation where he was killed Night 1?

The day is far from over, and day 1 focussed on two people who (to at least a majority of the town) seemed scummy who both flipped town, so I'm not sure haste in voting is to be encouraged now, especially as deadline still is not very soon by any means.

Deadlines are a limit, not a target. If you actually have something that you think needs to be discussed before the lynch, fine, but please don't ever hold back from lynching someone purely because the deadline hasn't arrived yet.

---

TO DO LIST:

Take a more thorough look at Huntress and Rishi's post histories and figure out whether or not there is anything to the bad feeling I'm getting from both.

[Rishi]

So, the weekend was really busy for me. I was barely home except to sleep. Will catch up tonight. If I can't do that, I will likely ask for a replacement (for my first time ever on Mafiascum) as I'm starting to get very busy. But I would like to stick with this game if possible.

[Jahudo]

It’s hard to judge where Rishi, OGML and Moriatry stand today but hopefully they’ll catch up and be real active this week.

There’s something I’ve started noticing about Huntress’ posts. She keeps active and writes long posts but a lot of that is filled with other people’s quotes and just a sentence or two from her responding to it or asking a question about it. I don’t find this suspicious by itself but she doesn’t have much exposition that isn’t centered around someone else’s words. It looks like a safe way to contribute because she’s not going out on a limb and creating discussion; she’s just continuing someone else’s.

I think BC and Spyrex are the best counter-examples of this; they theorize and find new information. They are the starting points of discussion. Somewhere in the middle today has been RC and IAUN, they have some points they create but not that many. It’s probably normal for the amount of their total posts today IMO, but Huntress’s lack of exposition looks noticeable.

However, rereading I noticed something - everyone, look at pops posts and search for the word town. If I'm somehow the bad guy for saying he's scum without reasons... the repetition fallacy would also be committed by pops for saying he's town.

Well town is in his name
But here’s what I found:

8 - I don't lie about what I'm doing when i play town.
29 - It's ok Spyrex. Toad is back, making everyone subliminally think i'm town.
52 - If you really would lynch me even if you looked up my meta and it showed that i'm playing pops-town
54 - It is lynch popsofctown if he's scum and leave him alive if he's town.
85 - I can use repetition fallacy too RC! Pops is town, pops is town, pops is town

The only ones I’d take serious are posts 8, 52 and 54 because of their context. I don’t think its overwhelming evidence to suggest anything deliberate, but it is interesting.

But OK, fine. If you're saying you weren't sure if there was anyone besides Huntress doing that, don't you think it might have been a good idea to go back and check before using that assumption as the basis for a vote?

QFT

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

When he says he wants to direct the spotlight in more places (not just two people like yesterday) but not on him (falling where it may) it sounds like a "but they did it too" argument.


TL;DR - Pops is still my number 1 suspect.

[popsofctown]

ok, fine. I void the usage of yesterday as an example, since it's somehow fallacious. That aside, you'd all agree based on your basic knowledge of mafia that we need to get some attention at all the hiding players today.

I'm sorry for possibly employing the fallacy i was complaining about, it is in fact wrong for me and anyone to use IMO. I'll try to stop.

Right now i'm awaiting Huntress's promised post.

@iamusername: you quoted something and said that people weren't misrepresenting me. The misrep is not about me thinking Spyrex is scummy. I think he is somewhat scummy based off tunneling. The misrep bit is when people called my conjecture about the night actions a "position". It was an idea, i thought people would recognize night action accusations are light feathery things but apparently no one else was on the same page with me.

[CF Riot]

Rishi, is the question in 537 rhetorical? If not, who specifically would you like to answer this? Why exactly did you feel like Pops was town yesterday? What's tipping the scales for you right now? On a scale from -10 to +10, with 0 being neutral, -10 being obv scum, and +10 being conf. town, where is Pops for you right now?

Bumping this so it doesn't get missed.

Somewhere in the middle today has been

RC

and IAUN...

I'm assuming this is a typo. Who did you mean?
----
@BC, that's what I'm trying to decide. That vote looks just like when people say, "I'm going to vote so-and-so for pressure," which is totally meaningless because it's taking away all weight from the vote by saying it's just for pressure. So where does your vote/statement fall? If it's not a serious vote, why not FoS him? Do you feel you need to be voting someone? If it is serious, why are you calling it a "non-wagon"? If you really think Pops and Spy are town and really think what Jah did was scummy then why aren't you trying to convince those on the other wagons to change their mind?

[Jahudo]

Somewhere in the middle today has been

RC

and IAUN...

I'm assuming this is a typo. Who did you mean?

Yeah I meant you, CF.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

(unchanged)

popsofctown (L-3) ~ SpyreX, CF Riot, iamausername

SpyreX (L-5) ~ Huntress
Jahudo (L-5) ~ bionicchop2

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Jahudo, Moriarty147, OhGodMyLife, Rishi, popsofctown
[size=0]bionicchop2 - 2 | Huntress - 0 | iamausername - 0 PROD1 4 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 0 | Moriarty147 - 3 PROD1 8 | OhGodMyLife - 3 PROD1 4 | popsofctown - 0 | Rishi - 0 PROD1 8 | SpyreX - 1[/size]

First Deadline Review: Sunday, March 15 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, March 19 2009

(10 days left)

-----

Moriarty147 and OhGodMyLife are getting prodded for their second times today.

[Moriarty147]

Bleh, I blame the Touhou 12 demo for my lack of activity, combined with the fact that I think I've actually made my position at the moment abundantly clear:
My opinion at this moment is that yes, pops is scum. The proof is there in a lot of posts in this thread, the transgressions against him are multiple and there is really nothing more to say about the matter at the moment.

Other than that, I'm mainly waiting on a post from Huntress at the moment. Both her cases on RC (which seemed largely artificial and contrived) and her case on SpyreX (which I've already mentioned seems completely invalid) are rather disconcerting. Then again, why would scum place a vote for SpyreX instead of the obvious lynch target, especially when he's made this many transgressions? Hmm.

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

If anything, you're stretching the meaning of his post. Nowhere is he advocating No Lynch, he is merely advocating that tunnelling on a single player for the entire day is a bad idea due to the fact that if he's town it's easily giving scum a free pass.

[Rishi]

Caught up to some degree. I think, so close to the deadline, that a replacement wouldn't be the best thing for the game, so I'll try to stick it out.

The question was asked much earlier, CF, whether or not I think pops is scum. Well, I thought it was a good possibility at the time, but I'm less sure now. (The reason him backing off SpyreX to avoid a lynch is that I think that SpyreX looked a lot more town at the beginning of the day after both RC and Rhinox flipped town.) His play is inconsistent, but he seems to be playing fairly emotionally. I often see emotional play as a town-tell, since good scum play is to be calm and collected. Personally, I find it much more frustrating being accused of scum when I'm town than when I am actually scum. I know that this isn't conclusive, but pops looked like he was about to blow a gasket in a couple instances - so I'm leaning towards pops = town.

It's actually fairly common for people to change their playstyle from Day 1 to Day 2 – in Day 1, you're just groping in the dark and in Day 2, you have some information. So I don't know if I would see Jahudo's change in style as a scumtell. It is possible that, if his scumbuddy was talking to him telling him that he was too cautious that he could change. But it could just be that he's more sure of himself with more info.

On the other hand, bio seems to be drawing a lot less attention today. I don't think he deserves a vote (for reasons that SpyreX enumerated – what possible reason would he have to counterclaim RC in that situation as scum?), but it does feel like a change in playstyle. I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to become more aggressive on Day 2, but less aggressive? Just weird.

So, I guess I'm also waiting for my top suspects to post: Huntress (SpyreX is a jerk, but beneath all his jerkiness, he does make a lot of sense – I wouldn't put it past him to kill Rhinox just to prove he was right, but more likely someone was framing him) and OGML (went after both RC and Rhinox pretty hard yesterday and has contributed almost nothing today – that in and of itself is not a scumtell, but it makes it hard to associate him with anything else).

[popsofctown]

On one hand, i'm glad you don't believe me to be town. On the other hand, are you sucking up to the guy who was talking about lurker hunting?

Rishi, try to keep posting. Right now i do think Rishi is legit.

Waiting on Huntress's post.

[bionicchop2]

@BC, that's what I'm trying to decide. That vote looks just like when people say, "I'm going to vote so-and-so for pressure," which is totally meaningless because it's taking away all weight from the vote by saying it's just for pressure. So where does your vote/statement fall? If it's not a serious vote, why not FoS him? Do you feel you need to be voting someone? If it is serious, why are you calling it a "non-wagon"? If you really think Pops and Spy are town and really think what Jah did was scummy then why aren't you trying to convince those on the other wagons to change their mind?

I didn't say anywhere that it wasn't serious, so why would you think it might not be? Why do you care if I vote or FoS (worthless) somebody? I just don't feel like anybody is going to vote for him besides me. This is also my last mafia game for a while and my care factor is significantly decreased, so you can over-read into statements all you want. There is no way that statement I made could benefit scum, but you feel the need to question it, so meh.

[SpyreX]

When did i say i hate fluff? When?

Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I won't random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game.

I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.

Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword.

12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them. Wink

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.

Unless you complain about things you like or are not included in your subset of "everyone" you are saying you hate fluff (if this was not the case, you would not have addressed my issue the way you did).

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

<3's for that post. At heart, it is an Appeal to Fear (in case you were still curious).

@iamusername: you quoted something and said that people weren't misrepresenting me. The misrep is not about me thinking Spyrex is scummy. I think he is somewhat scummy based off tunneling. The misrep bit is when people called my conjecture about the night actions a "position". It was an idea, i thought people would recognize night action accusations are light feathery things but apparently no one else was on the same page with me.

The addition of a vote makes it a position. It was not simple conjecture at that point. The conjecture was flawed.

The question was asked much earlier, CF, whether or not I think pops is scum. Well, I thought it was a good possibility at the time, but I'm less sure now. (The reason him backing off SpyreX to avoid a lynch is that I think that SpyreX looked a lot more town at the beginning of the day after both RC and Rhinox flipped town.) His play is inconsistent, but he seems to be playing fairly emotionally. I often see emotional play as a town-tell, since good scum play is to be calm and collected. Personally, I find it much more frustrating being accused of scum when I'm town than when I am actually scum. I know that this isn't conclusive, but pops looked like he was about to blow a gasket in a couple instances - so I'm leaning towards pops = town.

I can understand "emotional" play being a town-tell but does that really negate the issues I have brought up with his play?

Your other items (Jah, Bio) I agree with to an extent. Stay active.

So, I guess I'm also waiting for my top suspects to post: Huntress (SpyreX is a jerk, but beneath all his jerkiness, he does make a lot of sense – I wouldn't put it past him to kill Rhinox just to prove he was right, but more likely someone was framing him) and OGML (went after both RC and Rhinox pretty hard yesterday and has contributed almost nothing today – that in and of itself is not a scumtell, but it makes it hard to associate him with anything else).

I am not a jerk!

But, and WIFOM or whatever you will with this: if I was scum directing the NK I most definitely would not have hit Rhinox day 1. A claimed vanilla with copious amounts of suspicion? No way. Being right is only second in importance to winning - and I'm still baffled by that because its not a winning move.

I doubly agree with OGML being absent today.

We're getting towards crunch-time and although I want pops lynched I DO NOT want it to be an apathy lynch.

Not Voting: Jahudo, Moriarty147, OhGodMyLife, Rishi, popsofctown

This is, real soon, going to be not acceptable.

[popsofctown]

Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I won't random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game.

I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.

Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword.

12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them. Wink

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.

Unless you complain about things you like or are not included in your subset of "everyone" you are saying you hate fluff (if this was not the case, you would not have addressed my issue the way you did).

Oh my goshh are you for real spyro? I complain about hairsplitting in something you quoted, and now your hairsplitting again. I didn't wish to include myself in that everyone, yes, grammatically i should have said everyone else. But everyone on the roads nowadays has road rage and everyone at school doesn't like me and everyone hates my new haircut, and after all that stress i don't have time to be grammatically correct. (yes, that sentence is trying to make a point)

Huntress was not making fluff when i was complaining. She was avoiding a question and giving total bullcrap answers. When i said "nonsense" it's not the sort of nonsense that fills up space it's the sort of nonsense like "i can't make As mummy because i have dyslexia. The doctor's wrong. He lies. About the whole pregnancy thing too"

[SpyreX]

Nonsense... like your riddles?

And, again, if you were not including yourself in the dislike of fluff - why would you make that statement. Instead, saying "I don't have a problem with fluff, even if everyone else does." etc, etc.

So, yes, I am splitting hairs because that is an important hair that needed to be cut.

However, even that aside. Even if that didn't exist at all. Still scum.

[popsofctown]

Iirc, you were complaining that i mentioned fluff but didn't directly reference you. So i was saying "no, it's not like your the only one who has mentioned fluff so i should definitely mention you if i mention fluff. Everyone has been complaining about fluff".

If you misread everything i say that badly, it's no wonder you think i'm scum.

The whole thing with nonsense is just you being a stupid semantics hairsplitter. Next time i'll say bullcrap instead of nonsense, so it's very uber clear to you.

[SpyreX]

Yes I misread things badly. It must be all that stupid I have.

On the flipside, we've got pops who has managed not to mention me by name (yet referenced my call on fluff AND my note of his poking on Korts) - whereas earlier interactions with people holding supsicion was followed up directly.

I was making the statement that you were quick to respond

in some fashion

to both Korts and IAUN's suspicions. However, even though you directly referenced statements I made you opted not to reply to me directly.

So, yes that equals "If you mention fluff, directly mention me."

The whole thing with nonsense is just you being a stupid semantics hairsplitter. Next time i'll say bullcrap instead of nonsense, so it's very uber clear to you.

Use bullcrap, use any negative-connotation word you want there. My reply is the same. It is not a factor of hairsplitting:

You said to huntress: I have a very low tolerance for your [insert negative-connotation word here]

You then proceeded to do JUST THE THING you were taking umbrage to. So, that is not a semantic issue. That is an issue of "I am stating X is very bad. I am then doing X." Or, cognitive dissonance if you will.

But hey ad-hom's are p sweet and really get me stoked to keep this up.

[CF Riot]

I can't tell how you meant it. That's why I'm asking. If you think he's scum and no one else seems to agree, does that concern you? If you think the leading wagonee is town, does it concern you now?

Pops, for as many posts as you have on this page, you sure aren't finding scum in any of them. Is Huntress your only suspect?

[popsofctown]

Huntress has zero posts on this page and i'm eager to hear from her. She's my main suspect, and "oh, scumhunt other people while you wait" just rewards lurking. I'm not gonna lie, i am seeing lots of town right now. I think Rishi is town due to circumstantial evidence on him not taking such a primed mislynch wagon. BC seems legit. Spyrex is middling.

Oh crap, the other lurker. Moriarty. She bugs me a lot.