Mini 768- Root of All Evil (Game Over)

[Spolium]

I don't care what your avatar says - all I can see is "molest".

vote: molestargazer

You're not touching

my

family jewels, obvscum.

[Spolium]

Verbosity is playing to win, it seems. Whether or not he'll live up to his name remains to be seen, but the recent reg date suggests one of three things:

1. He has played with Pablo before; if so, I should like to know where, and what else he knows about Pablo.
2. He has read Pablo's 3-4 month post history here, in which case it would be prudent to cite evidence to support the allegation.
3. He is not familiar with Pablo and has (ironically) chosen him at random.

I am not interested in an explanation for option 3 right now, though I might be at a later point.

Something which I find odd is that Pablo is the only player not yet confirmed, so consequently he's the only one who can't actually respond to the pressure vote. Is this significant, Verbosity, or a mere oversight?

[Spolium]

These questions are not pointless, and as I have said, ignoring them is completely detrimental to the town, and by extension, scummy behaviour.

Interesting. Do I understand you correctly in interpreting this to mean "anti-town behaviour is tantamount to scummy behaviour"?

---

Pressure us fine. Cracking people without evidence to back it up isn't.

The principle behind cracking someone is no different to that of pressuring someone.

[Spolium]

after rereading I think that it is a safe bet Verb is actually a gun-ho townie.

Why?

The principle may be the same, but the difference lies in how far you take it, IMO.

That's a given, but at what point does it stop being "fine", and - more importantly - do you consider Verbosity's stated intent to be scummy?

[Spolium]

As I said in post 31, we will really know better about Verbosity on day two. Right or wrong, I think Verb is just gun-ho

Why?

[Spolium]

Anti-town behaviour and scummy behaviour are separate animals. Scummy is something that is suspicious, anti-town is flagrantly indicative that the player is scum. It's more like degrees of bad, really.

Strange. I would define scummy/anti-town the other way around, but I think I see what you mean.

Another question (open to others as well) - I have seen it noted on occasion that scum will commonly declare the RVS over, usually in an aggressive manner and implying/declaring that it is for the good of the town. I have not come across this myself, but what's your take on that? What do you think of it in light of this game?

Spolium - Why do I think he's gun-ho, because I feel he's living up to the term verbosity, we'll know more on day two. See post 36

Given that "verbosity" means an excess of word use (typically more than necessary to clarify a point), I find it odd that you attribute this to towniness, when it is a null tell at best.

Would Mafia push that hard though, Verb has pretty much guaranteed a day two lynching if they lead a bandwagon in such a strong way and it is wrong.

That said, I don't think Verbosity is saying more than is necessary. He's said a lot to a lot of people, which is different.

I

am

curious about why you think he has guarunteed a D2 lynch in the event that he is wrong. Please expand upon this.

I change my vote a lot because I don't have the "I am right!!!!" attitude.

Scum could change their vote a lot to see which bandwagon starts rolling. What do you think of that?

I find it interesting that you've thrown your vote on/off/on a controversial player. Your opinion of him seems to shift when the wind changes. Can you clarify, in bullet point form, what you find townie/scummy about Verbosity, and why the latter outweighs the former?

Until then,

unvote; vote: Gateway

[Spolium]

I think ThAdmiral meant me.

No, it wasn't an attack. I've seen the point raised on more than one occasion, and since this is the first game where I've seen someone jackhammer their way out of the RVS like that I wanted to know what the consensus was. My thinking was that multiple responses would allow me to make a better judgement of the validity of the claim.

More to come tomorrow.

[Spolium]

Those voting Gateway: Why do you think that his play is indicative of scum, rather than stupid?

I'm not entirely sure if it's one or the other - "Cognitive dissonace" is probably the best description I've seen of his play so far - but I'm not sure if these are mutually exclusive states of being in Gateway's case, either.

Why don't you think Gateway is a good candidate for pressure voting (particularly with respect to your original target for cracking pressure)?

I also get the feeling that those of you that suspect Gateway will not switch to molestargazer at any soon point, is that accurate?

How soon is "soon"? I would hope that nobody is dumb enough to throw down a hasty hammer D1, so I could be open to switching my vote depending on what transpires over the next few pages.

Whichever way it goes, I'm confident in saying that Gateway would be my contingency lynch choice in the face of a deadline, or no better choice.

-----

1.) Sitting on the fence is a townie thing right, so why say that and vote scum.

no, sitting the fence IS NOT townie.

I have to agree with this. It benefits scum to feign cautious deliberation moreso than to take a firm stance.

Gateway, what is your experience in Mafia?

[Spolium]

BTW, my unofficial count puts Gateway at L-1, in case the implication of my D1 hammer comment wasn't clear.

[Spolium]

Wow, I have a lot to catch up on.
I should be able to get something later this afternoon.

Could you reply earlier if you weren't molestering?

I'd like to know more about your switch of vote from Verbosity to Gateway. Is it because you found Gateway more scummy, or Verb less so? A combination of both, perhaps?

[Spolium]

Moar:

Verb had a gung=ho attitude about -one- player on page -one-. If they would have turned out to be a townie, who would have been first on the chopping block day two? I think my statement was common sense

Kicking off D1 with aggressive posts is by no means a sign of scumminess. More often than not the point is to guage the reactions of

other

players. Given the probability of lynching town D1, this is one of the more effective ways to increase the yield of information.

What if that Pablo had turned out to be scum? Would that make Verb seem more town? Why?

It is simple Spolium.

My vote changes because one statement or another made me question my logic, and I am quick to take off a vote that could be wrong.

That seems fair enough.

As it stands right now I think Verbosity is a townie because that is the gut hunch I get (I'm a gut hunch person on day one, "logic" doesn't really work since we have only theory and not a single fact on day one)

You've said elsewhere that "

Without deaths, cops, or some other information we can only assume everyone is townie on day one

".

1. If you assume everyone is a townie by default, why is your "gut feel" on Verb significant?
2. Given the aforementoned assumption, along with your gut feel, why did you vote Verb?

----------

Having caught up on the posts, I am not convinced that Gateway is scum. He reads to me more like inexperienced townie and a "convenient" lynch target rather than scum. I will not be voting to lynch him at present.

With the exception of Verb and his scumminess vs. stupidity stance, you are the only person directly questioning the lynch. Is there anything in particular which stands out as newbtown floundering?

Among those voting to lynch Gateway, I am most suspicious of MafiaSSK, as his vote came with nothing but a one-liner without any substance whatsoever. A lazy, jump-on kind of vote.

This concerns me as well.

MafiaSSK

: kindly expand upon the reasoning for your vote, and address Verb's request from the end of #27 (which you have apparently ignored).

[Spolium]

unvote

Time for a re-read.

[Spolium]

That is clearly fake. That role is broken and a half.

How so?

[Spolium]

Safeclaims are pre-prepared fakeclaims which the mod issues to scum. They're safe because they don't match any other roles in the game.

There were some used in the Legend of Zelda: OOT theme game, IIRC.

[Spolium]

Gateway: is there anything else you can paraphrase from your role, given that it's under dispute?

[Spolium]

Spolium POST 56; I disagree with Gateway being mafia or otherwise such.

Do you mean that specifically with regard to post 56, or to the whole concept of Gateway being scum?

I always change my vote tons of times.

I find frequent vote switches suspicious, since it makes getting a read difficult.

General thought; I think there is a mafia-led bandwagon against gateway.

I'd like to hear more about your reasoning for this.

Panzerjager, POST 97; ...
Vote; Panzerjager, for threats against the town.

Hang on. The only player that Panzerjager threatened was Verbosity - how do you know Verbosity is town?

FoS: Archon

[Spolium]

Verb, where does it say he could

kill

his choice? "Deal/dealt with" seems ambiguous - I took it to mean that he can pass one of the names on to the police to investigate the actual alignment of the player in question.

[offtopic]Hope you get well soon.[/offtopic]

If gateway's claim was fake, don't you think he would have been a little more anxious to spill it? expecially given his demonstrable lack of mafiascum experience?

Intriguing thought, but the premise is a bit WIFOMy.

I'll take this opportunity to ask again though -

Gateway

, what is your Mafia experience?

gateway - you are saying that you get two names and one of them definitely IS scum... or you are given two names and it is possible that they are both innocent?

This.

[Spolium]

Wow...I feel like no body read my post. If he gets to know the names there is nothing stopping him from claiming the names in the morning. Meaning he can make a kill and then report the other name to us in the morning. This role HAS to be fake.

Yeah, I've just read your post.

I'm conflicted, because this is basically weighing up:

- low chances of Gateway inventing a role like that
- Gateway's behaviour regarding the role
- relatively low liklihood of fakeclaim

against:

- low chance of a role like that existing
- role hugely overpowered
- possibility of fakeclaim

I'm leaning slightly towards the latter, but I want to know a few more things.

Gateway

, I've asked you numerous times, and I want an answer on this. What is your play experience in Mafia?

[Spolium]

Plenty..He's played alot..I would quote the answer but it's in a diff game.

This makes it all the more interesting. If Gateway is experienced, then the chances of him being familiar enough with the game to to invent (or have previous seen) a reasonably plausible, untaken role are much higher, and the chances of him being a floundering, inexperienced townie are greatly reduced.

In addition, I think Panzer is right. Every scum could be identified within the first few nights - I don't buy it.

vote: Gateway

[Spolium]

GATEWAY, FOR THE UMPTEENTH GODDAMNED TIME WHAT IS YOUR TOTAL PLAY EXPERIENCE IN MAFIA

[Spolium]

Actually, don't bother answering. You're a goddamned liar and it only took a quick look at the game you cited to see that.

[Spolium]

Before what could be an inevitable lynch, Gateway, I want to know what you think of molestargazer and Archon.

[Spolium]

That puts Gateway at L-1 again.
------

1. The whole concept

2. Most poeple do, and I can't understand why.

3. this has happened to me before. in my first game, a newb game, I said a really, really stupid thing. everyone jumped on me, which was acceptable. but, I noticed a strong effort to continue to try to get me lynched, even though the whole thing was over. I think the same thing is happening with gateway.

4. wait a sec... OH ASHOOT! I thought when he said "Also I want to know who you are, and failure to tell me this information will result in you withholding useful infomation from the town because we can't meta you," He meant EVERYONE! Damn, I'm so stupid.

5. Oh, and no, I don;t like verbosity.

Vote; Verbosity

1. Is there any reason that you addressed your opinion of the case on Gateway to that post specifically?

2. I explained my reason in the post that you quoted. What's difficult to understand about "I find frequent vote switches suspicious, since it makes getting a read difficult"?

3. In what sense is this "over"? Do you believe the questions surrounding Gateway have been satisfactorily resolved, to any extent?

4. How silly of you!

5. What are the primary factors in your vote?

Also, could you clarify what you meant by "All of a sudden, I'm not so sure about gateway anymore", in your first post?

[Spolium]

5. What are the primary factors in your vote?

By this I meant the Verb vote, of course, but feel free to justify your vote on Gateway and relate the point at which you decided he was a better choice than Verb.

[Spolium]

I missed your link, sekinj.

This game has a hidden role mechanic,

which makes this game different from others.

Notice that he mentions "

a

hidden role mechanic", which is singular. If he's only referring to a single unorthadox role, I don't think this is significant enough to place in a game description. I'd expect something more.

If he

is

referring to that role, it could be linked to other players (i.e. passing information to the cop), but again, I don't buy this. Getting one scum name handed to him on a plate each night is not feasible - I've never seen a role anywhere near this powerful.

sekinj, I'm concerned that you seem to have suddenly become convinced that Gateway's claim is not false. As you said, the scum would need a powerful counter-balance - what could this even be? Why do you find the claim so believable?

[Spolium]

Why are you basing you're reasoning on how dumb someone is? You're assuming that Gateway is a complete tard.

QFT.

at this point I would rather lynch myself than gateway. I think his info could help the town.

Yes, if he is telling the truth then it would be a huge boost to town. But what if he's lying? Let's say we allow Gateway to live and he gives us two names on D2:

- The best case scenario is that he names two townies; the town decides to lynch one D2, but cannot prove Gateway is lying until the other is lynched. The other is therefore lynched D3, allowing scum-Gateway and his buddies to reach D4 unharmed.

- The worst case scenario is that he busses a scumbuddy the first or second time. This would validate his claim and allow him to potentially reach D5 unharmed, and the verified townmember could be NK'd by the mafia.

- A more speculative (but entirely worse) possibility is that he is part of a 3-man team and provides the names of BOTH his buddies. One gets bussed, the other is essentially confirmed town and they both ride out the remainder of the game.

I wouldn't be confident in putting him in that position, even if I didn't already consider him scummy. I find your eagerness to do so very odd indeed.

FoS sekinj

[Spolium]

Why wouldn't scum kill him tonight?

The lack of NK on a player who has claimed a powerful/controversial role would lead to a total WIFOM mess. I for one would be second guessing him the whole time, and it would probably screw with my read on others as well.

Also,

Gateway, I want to know what you think of molestargazer and Archon.

[Spolium]

Just to be sure I understand, are you saying that the role is feasible because it's questionable enough to be unpersuasive if claimed?

[Spolium]

exactly.

Couldn't that be said of any unfeasible role?

[Spolium]

My experience is some, I've played smaller games on another forum where I MUD and most make it to seven or eight pages.

What variety of roles were present on games there? Was there much experimentation with strange roles?

[Spolium]

I still say seek out the scum today and let the NK happen tonight, it will happen to me because the scum know I am telling the truth (I am not one of them), and will want to eliminate me bringing one of them into the light tomorrow.

1. What do you think the town should do if you survive to D2, given that you have not touched upon this?

2. Kindly address my question regarding molestargazer and Archon.

@TheAdmiral:

Your strategy seems sound and in principle I think it's a good idea, but Gateway has contradicted himself on a few occasions and has been suspiciously evasive in revealing his ability. I don't like the way he's gunning for Panzer either.

@Archon:

Please address #180.

@MafiaSSK:

Please address the last part of #105.

@Verb:

What are your thoughts on molestargazer and Gateway right now? What do you think of ThAdmiral's plan?

@sekinj:

Who would be your second candidate for a lynch? What do you think of ThAdmiral's plan?

[Spolium]

EBWOP:

...and has been suspiciously evasive in revealing his

experience

.

[Spolium]

Spolium: Do you think you are a nice guy?

Yeah, I'd consider myself a nice guy. I'm taken though, sorry.

[Spolium]

1.) The above post addresses this, we know 100% that one of three people (me and the two names) are scum and can start focusing on set facts D2

Fair enough.

2.) My experience is as I said, minor on a MUD forum on the occasion we have a mafia game. We don't keep them going but you can see how short they are as I said at www.middle-earth.us and visit the discussion forum under games. I can't give away my name because that is an in character board, I don't talk with anyone outside of the game there and no one there knows who I am, it is how I stay in character.

I meant the question about molestargzaer and Archon. What do you think of them?

I don't like the way he's gunning for Panzer either.

Are you reading? Panzer claimed knowledge of my extensive experience and nothing, a straight lie. Then Panzer claims I said I couldn't be night killed; that came out of eastbumblefek, nowhere. Obviously Panzer is after me so I am gunning for the person I can personally see making lies up out of no where. Why are you ignoring the two claims I made against Panzer?

Panzer indicated that there was a reference to your experience in another thread, which you handily identified. I can't expect you to say more about it so I haven't been pressing the point, but having referred to the thread in question I think that you were being unnecessarily evasive in revaling your experience - in 167, 168, 189 and 195 you employed strawman arguments against Panzer.

I notice also that despite the rules against discussing ongoing games out of thread, you kept pushing Panzer to do so. To make this clear,

he cannot quote the proof because that would get him modkilled in the other game

. Needless to say, I don't think he has lied, and have touched upon the reasons why at some point or another.

Assumptions about my intent, scummish.

Just reading between the lines.

[Spolium]

The sekinj case looks interesting. I intend

Okay, I think that Gateway is an independent

and sekinj is scum hoping to capitalize on Gateway's messed up claim

It's interesting that you should say that - I've been flirting with the idea of Gateway being an SK for a few pages now. Points of interest are:

- He's said that he can be lynched in the event that he doesn't kill/name scum, implying that he has reason to target scum
- He's seemed eager to go down the route of actively killing someone, instead of presenting the names D2 (which would stand out, if his was the only kill)
- He has focused solely on individuals who have voted him, which makes sense if he is SK

The last one in particular stands out to me - he could be all but certain that mafia were taking advantage of the attention on him, increasing the chances of hitting one on a kill and "proving" himself. Also, the back-and-forth over his experience leads me to think he may be more liable to chance a gambit than people think, especially if he's put himself in a bad position by mistake.

The only thing which seems to stand against this is his willingness to be lynched D2 if his kill target is town; however, he also seems

very

certain that he's found scum.

My main concern is that we could spend at least today and tomorrow chasing our tails and trying to figure him out before realising he isn't even scum. Thoughts on this?

[Spolium]

EBWOP:

The sekinj case looks interesting. I intend

to read into that further.

[Spolium]

Right, here's my stance on the Gateway case vs. the sekinj case.

sekinj's interactions with Gateway are undeniably suspicious, particularly the passive defence. I can see them remaining suspicious whichever way Gateway flips;

- if he's town, then she could be taking advantage of being the one who defended him
- if he's scum, then she will look good (though a bus at this stage would be ballsy for a small scum team)
- if he's a third party, she would probably look neutral at worst

I find her reverse argument from popularity in #265 notable since she seems to ignore the actual reasons for people leaning towards Gateway. She has not defended herself from the suspicion highlighted by other players as far as I can see, either. I'm taking these to be null tells however, as I'm not sure what to make of them.

I see sekinj as a reasonable lynch choice but my preferred candidate is Gateway, by a long shot. I've covered my reasons for this at length, but the crux of it is this: I would rather take out the most likely scum on D1. This puts scum at an immediate disadvantage (increasing pressure and thus the chance of a slip-up) and the chance to nail a scum power role is too good to pass up, especially with a novel role mechanic floating around.

There is arguably more to be gained from Gateway's lynch in terms of analysing D1 interactions as well, and although the potential gain from sparing Gateway surpasses that of sekinj (so far as we know), it's not enough to justify taking my vote off him. His claimed role is too outlandish/powerful, he's frittered to and fro with vague explanations of his role, the potential damage which he could cause as an anti-town role is significant and he has been misleading about his experience to the point that Panzer committed a modkillable rule breach out of sheer frustration.








Oh, and just

one

more thing. [/columbo]

I have noticed something of interest in the OP:

Was it Maltz, the Army Vet?

This seems to be

vaguely

in line with at least part of Gateway's skittish claim. The question is, did scum-Gateway use this as a basis for a fakeclaim?

[Spolium]

sekinj, you should be voting for yourself, unless you want Gateway to die.

You are right, maybe I am just bluffing. I'm probably just scum who is trying to get myself confirmed as town by standing up for someone i KNOW is going to flip town... that way I can just about get myself confirmed as town and will skate through the rest of the game and WIN!! hmmm....

He has a point - you've professed to finding a sekinj-lynch more beneficial to the point where you've announced the readiness of your farewell post. It seems that if you really meant

IT MEANS I BELEIVE GATEWAY AND WOUDL RATHER LYNCH MYSELF IN ORDER TO GIVE HIM A SHOT TONIGHT!!

then a self-vote would've served as a more potent gesture of willingness.

Since you've expressed relative certainty of Gateway's honesty, is there any particular reason for which you didn't self-vote?

Preview edit: L-1 now. Question still stands, in the context of the thread prior to Azhrei's vote in #361.

[Spolium]

I stand corrected.

Can you answer the question?

[Spolium]

GODDAMN IT

[Spolium]

because this is an elborate ploy to get gateway lynched....

Seriously, though.

[Spolium]

The deadline's a few days shy of a fortnight away. You didn't think it might be worth doing it to see if anyone did?

[Spolium]

Gah! Well done town, and a "holy shit" to Jazzmyn for managing to take out two of us straight off.

I must apologise to my mafioso brethren as well. I inaccurately related that Gateway had to go with the top offer (on account of not double checking a mod PM) and consequently we were aiming high. However, I'm not entirely sure why Gateway concluded that town would put

less

money through.

Thanks for modding, Batto. It was a really interesting mechanic.

[Spolium]

Any comments on my play would be appreciated btw, this was my first game as scum.

[Spolium]

Were I to play ROAE knowing what I know, I'd be getting the hitman to claim as early on as possible. It's pretty clear that the hitman revealing himself was the second worst thing that could've happened to scum (him getting lynched was the worst), so you should probably consider shaking that role up a bit.

[Spolium]

Spolium, I had pegged as uber-scum, thus my Night 1 choice. I assumed that the bad guys had the same amount of money as me, though (but it turns out they had 2.5 times as much as me! Wowsa!)

Actually, this brings to mind something which could be interesting in a similar setup. Gateway assumed scum would bid more, but Jazz said that she was actually aiming high while trying to conserve (it seems likely, therefore, that she would've bid much higher if she had more).

It would make sense for both shopkeeper and scum to have equal amounts of money to start with so the town/scum divide is not so clear cut to the hitman/survivor, who - let's face it - wants TOWN to win.