Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[MacavityLock]

I wonder if an Aes Sedai would be allowed to vote a lynch on one who is not a darkfriend?

If I recall from the last game, Aes Sedai could vote but could not hammer.

I'll need to read the Mini, then. We should probably also select who will hammer in most instances.

*snores*

So, you want to potentially out Aes Sedai, who in the mini were pro-town power roles?

[MacavityLock]

The Game
The Roles

I would not expect the roles to be the exact same nor would I expect that every rule will be the same, as I would think that the mini was at least a partial test for this game.

[MacavityLock]

So, you want to potentially out Aes Sedai, who in the mini were pro-town power roles?

Ok, you are neglecting two things. One; the Aes Sedai can be black Ajah, meaning they are darkfriends (scum) and unbound by the Oaths. Thus, if a person successfully hammers, and then claims Aes Sedai...they are lying.

This does not follow. If AS cannot hammer, then choosing the specific person to hammer causes bad things for town: If the chosen person's hammer fails, then according to last game we have found a oath-bound AS -> Power-role outed. If the hammer succeeds, we have learned nothing.

[MacavityLock]

Incorrect. I want

non-Aes Sedai

to hammer in most instances. I fully expect we'll get more than one non-AS claim on D1, if this game runs true to form. And if not and we

do

get claimed AS, then we can test them to a degree.

Cool cool.

[MacavityLock]

Original Roll String: 1d26 (STATIC)

1 26-Sided Dice: (18) = 18

Do I detect a Mat Cauthon claim?[/joke]

Every game I try to come up with a silly reason to random vote. Like the time I voted someone for having the oldest MS username. I'm sick of it. Luckily, this game I've got a

good

reason for a random vote. And that is a

Vote: CyberBob

. Have you considered the consequences of being the winning scum from last game?!?

By the way, I win with the town and I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town.

The above should be stated by every player in the near future.

[MacavityLock]

Dude, do you know how stupid and completely pointless to start that again is?

I think it should be obvious that those bound by the Three Oaths do have the town win condition...therefore making it pointless to do that.

FoS: MacavityLock

It didn't work last game, why did you expect it to work this time? The mod would never had made such a glaring loophole.

It cannot hurt. It can only help. The second clause is not something we tested last time. Exactly how am I hurting town by asking people to say this?

[MacavityLock]

However, that doesn't make it any more useless.

That's fine if you want to think it's useless, but we had something to the effect of an eventual serial killer last game. I think there's a minuscule chance of this question being useful, and I'll take it.

[MacavityLock]

vote:macavitylock

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

I can only say that I don't understand what you're saying here.

Macavity, just because something "can't hurt" doesn't mean that it's something that is incredibly anti-town to criticise.

Whoa. I never said that it was anti-town for Sera to criticize me. I especially didn't say it was

incredibly

anything. Never FoSed, never voted. I was stating quite specifically why I thought it was a good idea, and that's all.

The only people in this game that have any rules changed with regard to lying are going to be the Aes Sedai, and they're still going to be able to say that phrase.

Also, how do you know they'll all be able to say it?

Random vote upgraded to real vote, more from the first quote, total mischaracterization of what I said, than the second.

[MacavityLock]

Whoa. I never said that it was anti-town for Sera to criticize me. I especially didn't say it was

incredibly

anything. Never FoSed, never voted. I was stating quite specifically why I thought it was a good idea, and that's all.

I don't think it's a mischaracterisation of your Post 74 at all ("incredibly" was obviously just a bit of hyperbole) to see an implication that Sera is anti-town for having criticised your idea.

Yes, it was a leap, and it was trying to cast what I said in an

incredibly

scummy light. I was expecting to get criticism of the "this is useless" variety, and I wasn't going to use that as a scumtell.

How exactly would this phrase prevent the possibility of anyone turning into a serial killer?

It wasn't supposed to prevent anything, just create some early warning.

Anyway, after a night to sleep on it, I think I understand what hascow's and Flay's objections are, though I'm not 100% sure. (Everyone else's objections, especially Shadow Knight's, are crap.) I guess I'm fine with people not saying it, which by the way, means that no one should.

[MacavityLock]

@MacavityLock: I know you've rescinded, but who did you hope to catch with this, and

how

did you hope for that to happen?

Given Van Damien's role from last game (which tl;dr was a town role which may have gone insane), I didn't think it was out of the realm of possibility that there was a role bound by the no-lying post restriction that currently has a town win cond but may not in the future. If someone refused to say the second part of the sentence ("I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town."), that would be an indication that we'd probably need to either immediately or eventually get rid of them.

I completely understand people saying it's pointless. It probably is/was. Having seen enough serious objections that they're probably not all from scum, I'm fine with not doing this.

[MacavityLock]

You do realise that Van Damien's role didn't have anything about not being able to lie, yes?

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

To what? Men who have taken the Three Oaths? Female channelers destined to go insane?

What does it matter? I don't know exactly what the flavor would have to be, but is it really so hard to believe that such a thing might exist given what we saw in the mini? I doubt it too but again, a tiny chance of finding something is still a chance of finding something.

[MacavityLock]

I'm honestly not sure how to ask the question in this situation, but if we have a group who can't lie and a group who lie, we can use this, right?

No one in this game is ever forced to lie. Therefore, this will not work.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, because those roles are part of the flavour. Kinetic didn't just throw them in because he made them up off the top of his head.

Minor spoiler alert for late WoT books. Minor because

no one

knows the deal:

Verin Sedai. That's what I'm afraid of.

[MacavityLock]

My beef with this is different though. ML, being in the mini, should have known that last time all this little plan did was distract the town and cause arguments over things that did not help scumhunting in the least.

So, I say,

FoS:MacavityLock

for distracting the town.

Does the "distracting from scumhunting" argument work when we were in the middle of RVs?

[MacavityLock]

Upgrade:

Vote: MacavityLock

Why?

[MacavityLock]

Upgrade:

Vote: MacavityLock

Why?

Did you read my post? Backpedaling...duh.

Your post quoted fuzzylightning's backpedaling, then voted me. So, again, why?

Much as I dislike the way Fabian claimed, I'd have to say that his claim is believable.

Still like my Cyberbob vote.

BTW, I have entrance exams over the next two weeks, so I will also be semi-LA. I'll be around enough to post, but not too much.

[MacavityLock]

Wow MacavityLock, my bad, lol. I totally was stupid lol.

Unvote. Vote: Fuzzylightning

Please explain how you managed to make that mistake, especially given that fuzzy and I were talking about different things.

[MacavityLock]

Spyrex, have you read the mini?

[MacavityLock]

I was actually going to post something like what Isacc said above, with one major difference. I agree that Spyrex should not be today's lynch, but I think that he should be gentled

tonight

, not at some indeterminate point in the future. I believe that right now he is town and that it is likely that he will remain town tomorrow. So, my plan would be to gentle him tonight, and strongly considering lynching him tomorrow if he admits that he was not gentled. (He

has

to die sometime this game, that's clear. Therefore it is in his best interests to die with a town win condition. This is why he will tell the truth tomorrow.) I would worry about what potential havoc he could cause when he does go rogue. I doubt that he will have warning as to when he will go rogue, so finding the right time to gentle will be a balancing act if we don't do it immediately. However, if we do gentle immediately, we pretty much have a semi-confirmed vanilla townie, which is worthwhile though not as much a power role, depending on the powers. Discuss the merits of this plan vs Isacc's.

As for location claiming, I don't think we should do it before twilight. However, I think that every day, we should be claiming where we chose to sleep the previous twilight, I'm thinking in popcorn fashion (though that might be excessive). I don't know what we might find this way, but it seems more useful to potentially catch liars this way than to just provide the information of where we're going to sleep beforehand.

[MacavityLock]

Another thought just occured to me, Aes Sedain CANNOT VIG a townie that will become an SK. They are not allowed to kill anyone but Darkfriends. This is why we should LYNCH the claimed SK right here, right now.

Why do you assume that AS are the only roles that could potentially vig?

[MacavityLock]

Oh fun, exact same situation as last game from day 1. And I get to ask the same questions:

ABR: As Red Ajah, it seems likely that you would have motivation for gentling a male channeler. Do you have flavor to that effect? Do you have gameplay notes to that effect? (Win condition or some sort of bonus.) Do you have any reason to believe that Spyrex is scum due to his claim?

(JVW, you may be experiencing deja vu. Don't worry, that's normal.)

[MacavityLock]

ABR, did you miss my questions in 399?

ABR: As Red Ajah, it seems likely that you would have motivation for gentling a male channeler. Do you have flavor to that effect? Do you have gameplay notes to that effect? (Win condition or some sort of bonus.) Do you have any reason to believe that Spyrex is scum due to his claim?

Also, please go into what exactly you mean by "not guaranteed to work".

We can all gentle a Saidin. It takes

at least

three Aes Sedai to gentle a Saidin, and they must do it at the same time.

It is not guaranteed to work.

We can also still a Saidar. It takes a minimum of two Aes Sedai to still a Saidar, and it is not guaranteed to work.

[MacavityLock]

@ABR Please answer the following question: Can you break the 3 pro town oaths with no consequence?

The finding the partner's name thing is a complete dead end. MBL is right: ABR probably either asked his partner, or realized he could find it in his PM. Of all things to potentially lie about, the partner's name is one of the stupidest. Whether or not there are any consequences for ABR, it's a null tell from my perspective.

[MacavityLock]

Apologies, but I'll be very limited over the next week and a half. (Not enough for official LA, but see sig.)

As for current events. I don't think that ABR should be claiming his partner's ability without good reason. Shadow Knight, that is rolefishing.

I do think that both SK and ABR should probably say whether or not they felt saidar.

Boo at Cyberbob for replacing out just because I voted him :} Going to

unvote

, but I'll be interested to see what the replacement has to say.

[MacavityLock]

And Mac for his actions that took place around page 12.

Hi. The only thing I posted between pages 11 and 13 was the post suggesting that we gentle Spyrex tonight and talking about room-claiming each morning about the previous night. So, huh?

Of course, that dovetails nicely into:

I also feel that because AS can detect the use of Saidar, we should all claim which room we will be sleeping in to help detect the use and targets of Saidar powers.

Give me one pro-town reason for room-claiming before twilight. Not knowing the mechanics as yet, I can think of

many

anti-town reasons.

Also,

I feel that Albert is the better choice for lynch and that all Aes Sedai should gentle spyre tonight.
...
I for one will be stilling him tonight if he refuses to comply with a plan that can confirm two players or catch a scum. If my partner is town, then they will also still him.

totally anti-town. Spyrex needs gentling and you know it. So, why would you waste your night-action stilling ABR? Especially since it's likely that if he is scum, at least some of his power probably won't be based on the One Power. And if he is town, you will have neutered a power role. Risk-reward alone suggests this is a bad idea.

FoS: Shadow Knight

[MacavityLock]

We should claim our locations. At daybreak.

Yay! Someone read my freaking posts!

[MacavityLock]

So, now that we've found scum, are people generally onboard to a) gentle Spyrex tonight if they have the ability to and b) claim sleeping locations at daybreak?

Consider this post a vote for Fabian, without actually voting. No premature ending of the day.

[MacavityLock]

I'm mildly annoyed I didn't get to choose where I slept because I was kinda not expecting things to blow up so massively that I didn't get a chance. Oh well.

Note: Kinetic is being kind, and allowing people to make their twilight actions anyway, even though the hammer dropped so quickly. (See vote quote where lynch occurred.) I assume this includes sleeping locations.

Still, there's a reason I held off with my vote before.

[MacavityLock]

Well, my bad then. (Guess that means I tipped the info that I did get my location in.)

[MacavityLock]

Windmill. SpyreX, are you still crazy?

[MacavityLock]

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud here.

Windmill. SpyreX, are you still crazy?

What sort of answer are you expecting here?

Yesterday, he talked about receiving the PM about vegetables and how that was part of his win condition. I'd like to know if a) he received something else like that and b) if his win condition stabilized.

[MacavityLock]

If he is lying and is secretly an anti-town

power role

, I think we can afford to let him live 1 more day

at least

.

Slip. I also think he was way over-defensive at too many times during day 1. Totally up for an Isacc wagon.

Vote: Isacc

[MacavityLock]

I don't understand the Isaccwagon. Macavity, what's the slip?

Isacc made mention of Fabian specifically as an anti-town

power role

. Nothing about the potential for him to be goon. And of course, Fabian flips Forsaken.

Last game all mafia were "friends of the dark", none of them actually being "power roles". (Per se. They collectively had additional powers, but none were distinguished from the other.) Also note that Isacc made some assumptions early in day 1 based on last game that turned out not to be true: AS can't hammer. Gentling takes only 2 AS. So, if he was basing a substantial amount of his play on assumptions from last game, he probably wouldn't have brought up Fabian as a possible anti-town power before at least considering what passes for goon in this game.

[MacavityLock]

Because ABR nor anyone claimed to have gentled him. Its seems way too convenient an excuse. One death last night was done by the one power… Gentling requires 3 AS/not 100%.(Didn’t I just list this in my last post…odd…)

There is one living claimed AS. Thus, requesting AS to claim that they gentled is rolefishing.

As for location claiming, everyone should do it.

[MacavityLock]

Mufasa's 958 read to me like Mufasa and Isacc are buddies. This would not surprise me.

At this point, I see little reason not to lynch Isacc. However, no quick lynches like we had on Fabian just yet. We still need 2 people to location claim as well as give people a chance to get night actions in.

Upon preview, I see a bunch wrong with Benmage's post.

I say we vote Kairyuu, because the odds of us confirming his ability are near impossible.

You shouldn't be bringing odds into it, I don't think. It is plausible that he could be confirmed.

The global roleblock should block any NK from the darkfriends so we won't be losing back to back townies if we vote wrong.

It was a global dayblock and I'd expect night actions to work.

Plus than we have a fairly strong confirmation in Issac.

Huh? No, seriously, how can Isacc be confirmed in any way?

[MacavityLock]

Also:

It was a global dayblock and I'd expect night actions to work.

Deep south so there are no night actions. Thus if it got true he may be right.

Sorry, I'll be more clear. By night actions, I was including both twilight actions and daybreak actions. I read what KoC said as saying that no day actions would work today, but twilight and daybreak actions would. I could have misinterpreted, sure. But I don't think that we should expect that scum won't have kills tonight, which is what Benmage was suggesting.

[MacavityLock]

Well, that was an eventful 5 pages.

Something sticks out:

If we're going to keep you around, we're going to need answers and QUICK.

Why would even consider keeping Isacc around?

I don't think we're in danger of the quick lynch, but if anyone wants me to temporarily unvote, let me know

[MacavityLock]

Also, MoS- you realize you were the hammer vote (because of spyrex screwing the votes or whatever other reason), did that cause anything else to happen?

Why would you suggest that?

Alright well then stop the BS, if you do not know what I am talking about your not an Aes Sedai like I thought you were. Because of an ability, I know your either Aes Sedai or scum. Therefore your scum.

Vote: MoS

Weren't all abilities canceled yesterday?

Don't think it matters, but I Silo'ed it up.

[MacavityLock]

Macavity just vanished from the face of the earth. Sweet.

Apologies, but turns out end of term work is much heavier than expected. I've only been able to skim the last ~5 pages or so. Still, SpyreX brings up a question I had to Mufasa that he never answered. Mufasa said that I was scummy due to my actions on page 12. I didn't post anything around there. So, I'm still waiting for an answer on that one.

Will be back to full strength and will do a more in depth read around the 20th.

[MacavityLock]

Apologies, but turns out end of term work is much heavier than expected. I've only been able to skim the last ~5 pages or so. Still, SpyreX brings up a question I had to Mufasa that he never answered. Mufasa said that I was scummy due to my actions on page 12. I didn't post anything around there. So, I'm still waiting for an answer on that one.

I think you misread. I was making reference to the fact you were scummy to mufasa and then... not. Without reasons or explanations.

Sorry, misspoke. To clarify, you bringing up your thing reminded me of my thing. Also, your thing is a totally valid point too.

[MacavityLock]

Due to the end of semester panic, I haven't been able to entirely keep up. Now that it's all over, I am in the middle of a re-read.

I was not feeling the Flay lynch originally, though given his status as current big wagon, he will be a major focus of my re-read.

Based on where I am right now, I'm more interested in a Mufasa or Benmage lynch.

[MacavityLock]

MoS, I volunteer to have Flay lie-detect my sleeping location last night.

I don't see how this confirms anyone. MBL could lie and/or Flay could lie about this. I don't see how Yos's suggestion works either. Mod's not going to tell us anything one way or the other. All either of these things would do is force us to lynch one or the other of Flay and his lie-detecting target.

Flay, just claim dude. Gotta give the people what they want.

This is strange wording. You seem to be daytalking scum with him. Please note that lie detection abilities CAN BE FAKED, as in Mind Screw Mafia III (ask Seraphim).

OGB, this makes zero sense. If they're daytalking scum together, why wouldn't ABR just say that to Flay privately?

[MacavityLock]

I'm not sure if this is best use either. Once again, we get into the issue that we need to have either Flay or SpyreX dead to figure out whether or not the lie-detecting worked. I think if we really want to do this, we need to think of something that can be confirmed or refuted by a 3rd party. However, this could have the potential issue of outing some other power role. Either way, we shouldn't be cavalier about this test.

However, if we do go through with this, I don't want it screwing up on a technicality. SpyreX, you need to amend your statement to "I was gentled over Twilight 1." I'm not sure whether or not that counts as "last night" at this point.

[MacavityLock]

It wouldn't "force" us to lynch anyone; unless you are suggesting that you think MBL and Flay are scum together and they're orcistrating this whole thing for the town's benifit?

Yes, this is totally plausible. Not only that, if MBL is scum and Flay isn't, MBL might not confirm. I don't think that the location-confirming test tells us anything.

[MacavityLock]

I think it would be good to have at least one other person post something similar to what MBL did above, just to guard us against the case that Flay and MBL are working together, or that MBL is on his own trying to pull something. As a group, we could then choose who Flay should target, etc. I think a good candidates for this would be Kairyuu and SpyreX, as they have already outed themselves as non-AS.

[MacavityLock]

It's now 100% clear that it's MoS or Flay today, and I tend to think that given the way this came out Flay is the scum here. Once Flay's result comes back, I'll be voting for him.

By the way, lie-detecting MoS was absolutely useless. At least if you'd lie-detected one of the other 3 candidates, had you flipped town, we would have gotten a confirmed town/scum. If you can change your target at this point, you should. If not, all the more reason to lynch.

[MacavityLock]

Because his enabling ability is bullshit.

The number of deaths over twilight 1 suggest that it was not bullshit. I'm not 100% convinced that Kair is town, but all evidence points to his motivation ability being real.

[MacavityLock]

Because his enabling ability is bullshit.

The number of deaths over twilight 1 suggest that it was not bullshit. I'm not 100% convinced that Kair is town, but all evidence points to his motivation ability being real.

Mafia, SK, vig. SK Isacc supports Mafia Kairyuu.

I count 4 kills twilight 1, 2 on Shadow Knight.

[MacavityLock]

I count 4 kills twilight 1, 2 on Shadow Knight.

EBWOP: 2 on KoC, not Shadow Knight.

[MacavityLock]

I verified to myself that ABR is pro-town Day One; I can pull the exact post if you like, it came back 100% truthful. I already told you who I tried to target Day Two. That's the extent of my abilities.

Others: I can work with an entire post not just a single declarative statement, so I'd prefer if it combined truth and lies.

The difficulty being that it can't be someone who is an Aes Sedai

, for that reason... so either it's someone we already know not to be one, or who doesn't mind being outed.

Vote: Mr. Flay

I don't think you've caught a slip. I read this as him saying the same thing I was: The best way to test his ability in thread is to test it on someone who's not an AS, as his claimed ability can supposedly verify all statements. (If he tested it on an AS, he could say "Yup, all true," without any issues.) I did not assume that this meant he could never lie-detect an AS.

We should let a) twilight actions come in and b) Flay's lie detection results come in before lynching. I doubt that it'll be useful, but there's no reason not to cover all bases.

P.S. I really want to lynch Benmage tomorrow.

[MacavityLock]

To be fair, Kison, the posts you quoted don't contradict each other, because Flay is talking about using a post that contains truth AND lies to confirm himself. Day 1, he presumably got all truthful statements from ABR. Regardless, though, all of that is probably a lie, and you should still be voting him.

Hmm looking back I can see how they don’t contradict one another. I suppose I focused on the bolded and overread the other.

Unvote

P.S. I really want to lynch Benmage tomorrow.

Wtf is this coming from?

Well, for example it's posts like that, where you admit you didn't actually fully read through and understand the post that you used as an excuse for voting.

[MacavityLock]

Yeah I re-read it and saw more. Are you serious with this accusation? How many countless times do people re-read other posts and pickup something they missed the first time around. If you wanna vote for me for this, fine but it makes you look suspicious imo, its omgus-like.

And seeing as your post came first, got any more compelling insight as to why you 'really' wanna see me lynched.

Yes, I am serious. You're using OMGUS wrong, and voting you would not make me look suspicious. Yes, I have more notes on you, but I don't think it's worth talking about right now as it would distract from Flay-MoS. If other people would like me to comment, I will.

[MacavityLock]

Wait. We have twilight actions now? Not after the lynch?

If you're going to be part of a game, please understand the rules.

<6> Twilight Actions MUST be sent before the Twilight begins. If a Twilight Action is not received before the twilight begins it is considered not used. There will be no exception. These abilities can be roleblocked

[MacavityLock]

I Windmilled it up.

The following people should be examined more in depth due to their insistence on lynching Flay immediately given that we were in no rush, and that there was good reason to delay for a few RL days: Ooz/Zwet/Satael, Mufasa, ABR, MoS, though mostly the first two. I was going to say maybe Slicey too, but that is now rendered pointless.

The following people need to stop lurking: fuzzylightning, JVW, armlx, Goatrevolt, Sajin.

I'm pretty busy tonight, but I'll be posting something more comprehensive tomorrow or Saturday, probably with notes about, and maybe a vote for, Benmage.

[MacavityLock]

Note: People should not be posting whether or not they were randomly assigned a sleeping location.

[MacavityLock]

Randomly assigned the River for my sleeping location

Mufasa, if you're a roleblocker and must submit your block before Twilight, why did you not also submit a sleeping location?

[MacavityLock]

Well, that was fun. This is my announced intention to vote for Mufasa once everyone has location-claimed and people have been provided enough time for submitting twilight actions.

[MacavityLock]

Unless I miscounted, that is not the hammer. I think that Mufasa's vote puts him at L-2. Which makes things all the more hilarious. Seriously, people should unvote as it is clear that Mufasa will be the lynch today and the location-claims need to happen.

[MacavityLock]

JVW moves onto the list of people who try to end the day too quickly.

[MacavityLock]

Armlx, where did you sleep last night?

[MacavityLock]

Oh, and possible a why, pretty evident you failed to block a kill.

There were probably 4 kills twi 1 and probably only 1 twi 3. So, that's not really evident to me.

I also don't think anyone's caught ABR in an outright lie. Neither MoS's example nor Setael's look to me to be much more than opinion. I do think ABR is being cavalier with his posts, and given how strict Kinetic was in the mini, I think that's a problem.

@mod: Request votecount.

[MacavityLock]

As we know nothing about the source, the notes are and have always been distractions.

Sleeping locations please. I Blacksmithed it.

[MacavityLock]

Vote: Benmage.

It's time.

First off, he replaced Cyberbob, who I definitely found scummy in his short time with us.

He's been talking about darkfriends and the "darkfriend team" a bunch.

The global roleblock should block any NK from the darkfriends so we won't be losing back to back townies if we vote wrong.

He wasn’t AS he was Forsaken. He may have acted rashly without confirming with fellow AS. The darkfriend team may not know all their members.

While on day 1 it was a reasonable assumption that the mafia would be a darkfriend team, Fabian flipped "Survivor Mafia". Something seems off about the way Benmage is discussing Fabian's death after the fact.

His initial vote on day 2 was on SpyreX.

Let's vote the MC now.

Vote Spryex, FoS Spryex

Seems to me like a blatant attempt to waste the day. Note also that he's the only one going so far as to consider this:

My only reconsideration is in the mini the dark friend team gained an extra gift with the death of the MC. (Pretty sure that is how I read it. My memory is failing me now… If someone from the mini wants to give further insight feel free).

Bespeaks a player viewing things from a scum perspective as opposed to town.

Why didn't he go after Spyrex on Days 3 and 4? Day 3 would have been just as good of a time to do it, as we had just gotten rid of an SK. Now on Day 4, he's aiming at ABR, which in my opinion classifies as an "easy wagon".

Benmage has been insisting for the entire game that there are Black Ajah AS.

However I have had and have an underlying eerie feeling that in a game of this magnitude the odds of Black AS are high.

Feels like someone trying to score "told you so" points when a Black Ajah buddy flips. This is a guy who apparantly likes "told you so" points.

who was it who thought twilight and thus night kills wouldn't of been blocked by KoC...i guess...i told ya so

Trys to end the day without all necessary info coming out:

I still don’t see the point of waiting for replacements. Than we have to wait for them to declare where they stayed and catch up on the game… Can’t all this be done tomorrow? Aren’t replacements informed of any actions their character previously did…How beneficial is this location thin anyways when its clear people are lying?

Also, why is it clear that people are lying about their locations?

As far as scum possibilities. Kairyuu is my leading candidates. Kaiyruu motivating Issac and trying to have the two confirm each other through their roles seemed really sketchy. Since then he has seemed rather obstinate. His butler claim is weak. His stress against there being Black Ajah seemed to detract from the game. His scum hunting is nearly nonexistent. I’m trying to look at others in iso to get some more reads. Perhaps if others answer these questions it can give me some direction to refer back to.

This is a crap argument, since Isacc was a serial killer.

I can't for the life of me figure out the argument for ABR saying who he roleblocked. We're nowhere near certain as to the set up, so we can't use the roleblock to confirm town or scum, so I see this only as an attempt to figure out if he or a scumbuddy would need to lie about an action.

We haven't mislynched, and I still feel like were losing...two deaths. What do you guys think caused the extra deaths?

a.k.a. The "Oh whoa is us, these nightkills are awful" scumtell.

There's a bunch of other stuff too, though maybe more minor, but I'm kind of done for right now. More than enough evidence for a vote.

[MacavityLock]

He's been talking about darkfriends and the "darkfriend team" a bunch.

Wotmud.org it’s a text game I play off and on. On the forums we play a variation of this mafia game. However all the games tend to be WoT-themed, so instead of referring to mafia as scum, we usually just call them DF…my terminology between the two sites overlaps.

If you post one or two example games where you used this terminology, I will no longer consider this a point against you. I still think there are other compelling points though...

I still don’t see the point of waiting for replacements. Than we have to wait for them to declare where they stayed and catch up on the game… Can’t all this be done tomorrow? Aren’t replacements informed of any actions their character previously did…How beneficial is this location thin anyways when its clear people are lying?

Also, why is it clear that people are lying about their locations?

At that point only Spryex claimed stables. I severely doubted the two unclaimed replacements were both going to claim stables. In addition the scum person clearly wouldn’t claim stables, and I feared the towns people who stayed there were also lying to avoid unnecessary attention.

Why did you ever believe the notes?

[MacavityLock]

Why did you automatically disbelieve the notes?

Due to the fact that the source of the notes was not explicitly stated, I was not comfortable with believing them, as they could have come from scum. Another worthy point: Believing and following them allows for lazy analysis. By that, I mean that it gives people something to talk about without any real originality or insight, i.e. active lurking. I'd go so far as to say that the more someone paid attention to the notes, the more it adds to their scumminess.

[MacavityLock]

You want to find incidents where I say the term darkfriend?? Didn’t you open saying I said it a bunch…I found it reasonable so responded in the above statement, what exactly are you asking of me here?

Meant games on the other site.

The last note was also proven accurate.

First of all, no it wasn't, because we don't know that everyone told the truth about their location, that people who died didn't stay their too, etc. Second, who cares? If one note has proven to be true, that doesn't tell us anything. I think we'd need at least 2 or 3 to be true, and none false, before anyone should have put any stock in them. (Or if they became mod-confirmed for some reason.)

[MacavityLock]

Back off.

Seriously, the notes have been proven useless, and you're basing your arguments and potential claims on them?

FoS: MBL.

[MacavityLock]

ML voted for me.

...

Anyways ya, back to ML. Looking at him in iso. Other than previously calling out that he was setting up a vote for me he did nothing with the Flay and Fabian lynches. He's been incredibly inactive and utterly useless this game. Seems like as good as any target to lynch imo.

unvote vote MacavityLock

Ah, OMGUS.

The premature call for claim and constant ridiculous vote jumping makes me quite satisfied with my vote.

[MacavityLock]

Benmage and MoS have compromised on the issue, and it's time for you to quit using your superimportant superpowers to jerk the gherkin. Find some scum already.

Compromised because A ML's an idiot(who will fall under B in a second here), and B everyone else is inactive.

I very much enjoy people insulting me, thanks. Also, unless other people want to join in on this bandwagon, I'm not going to need to defend myself anymore, so yeah it probably will be my last post on the subject of your attack on me.

[MacavityLock]

Also, I think we should try to figure out which dead people could use the One Power.

I generally agree with your list, with a single caveat: Flay flipped a Forsaken that I

think

was male given the lynch flavor. Remember, the male OP and female OP is different. So my speculation is as follows:
Non-users: Has, Isacc, Slicey, Mufasa, KoC
Saidar (female) users: SK, Fabian, Kison, Faraday
Saidin (male) users: Flay

[MacavityLock]

Unvote

for now, I believe the claim. But I am still suspicious of Benmage.

ABR, ABR's claimed White Ajah partner
Shadow Knight, SK's claimed White Ajah partner (likely Kison)
Benmage, Benmage's claimed alive partner (I don't see where he claimed Ajah.)
Faraday

That makes 7 AS, with a possible 8th being Faraday's partner. There are now officially too many AS for us not to suspect Black Ajah. Given Benmage's other scumminess, I have to consider the possibility.

Is it at all weird that we have at least three green Ajah?

Where's the 3rd claimed Green?

Oh, and my partner AS is willing to come out too, I'm sure you towns people *cough scum* want another PR out aye?

Congrats on already outing your partner by claiming detection results. This is why ABR should not be claiming the detection results of his partner.

I don't think that claiming detections helps the town as much as it helps the scum at this point. I think Benmage has actually hurt the town by claiming his own detections so explicitly.

I agree with this. Partner detection claims should be off the table entirely, and I'd say no to revealing ABR's detections, though I could see how that point would be debatable.

[MacavityLock]

Well due to both Mcavitylock saying he is not Benmages partner in 2133 and Benmages detection results cross referenced with location claims, I am outed.

My claim of "not Benmage's partner" had nothing to do with your getting outed. His claim of your detection results was all that was necessary.

[MacavityLock]

Only me, WAY more confirmed town than ABR Kiayruu of MoS ever was.

How are you confirmed town in any way?

[MacavityLock]

By the way, there are 6 Ajah colors (Green, White, Grey, Blue, Red, Yellow), so if we have 2 of each color (seems logical), we have at least 12 Aes Sedai in this game. I have no clue where Kairyuu is getting the number 8 from, as it doesn't follow the flavor not does it seem to make sense given what we know about the setup.

7 Ajahs, you're forgetting Brown. Also, I don't think we can say 100% that Faraday had a partner.

[MacavityLock]

@Macavity: What's your reasoning for thinking Faraday might not have had a partner? Those who've claimed all have a partner... seems unfounded.

No particular reason, and I think it's likely that he does. Just that it's not 100%.

[MacavityLock]

@Sajin

Did you or did you not use One Power last night?

Once Sajin answers this question, I will have interesting things to say. Please note that Sajin has been posting up a storm elsewhere on site, but has been ignoring this question.

[MacavityLock]

My partner asks if Sajin used One Power last night.

@Sajin

Did you or did you not use One Power last night?

Once Sajin answers this question, I will have interesting things to say. Please note that Sajin has been posting up a storm elsewhere on site, but has been ignoring this question.

I will continue to ignore the rolefishing. I do not think it is wise to put more abilities and PRs on the table at this time as that lets scum figure out how to deal with them.

All I want to know is whether or not you used One Power last night. Not what, not on who, not anything like that. Just a yes or a no. Once you provide an answer, I believe I will have proof that one of a limited set of people is a liar.

[MacavityLock]

OK, long post time.

If you've been paying any attention, you'll have figured out that I'm Norida Sedai, ABR's White Ajah AS partner. Astonishing! I know, it's uncouth to claim, but given that there are 8 million AS in this game, I'm not overly worried. I made a very obscure breadcrumb of my White Ajah-ness in my first Day 1 post of the game. If anyone wants me to specifically provide it, let me know.

ML voted for me.

...

Anyways ya, back to ML. Looking at him in iso. Other than previously calling out that he was setting up a vote for me he did nothing with the Flay and Fabian lynches. He's been incredibly inactive and utterly useless this game. Seems like as good as any target to lynch imo.

unvote vote MacavityLock

I will now more completely answer to these accusations. I have had two good reasons to be more inactive than I would have liked this game: 1) During late April, early May I had my entrance exams, which caused my LA; 2) My power role mason partner outed himself on Day 1. I wanted to stay under the radar, especially because I didn't know how many power roles were in the game. I didn't want to get outed myself.

Why I wasn't on the Fabian wagon pre-meltdown:

People were jumping on the Fabian wagon based on an incorrect premise.

It was not clear to me on Day 1 that Fabian's claim of daytime saidar detection made him a liar. I was pushing for ABR to do some detection tests with me on Day 1. While we didn't get around to a complete set of tests until Day 3, we have since learned some interesting things about detection mechanics. I will not reveal them at this time, since it might be nice to catch more lying scum this way. ABR, feel free to tell people how insistent I was about doing those tests.

Why I wasn't on the Flay wagon pre-MoS's info: No excuse. I didn't think he was scum.

Why won't you say the same about Shadow Knight or Kison? Why single out Faraday?

Shadow Knight was town AS and claimed he had a White Ajah partner. Kison was White Ajah. I am also White Ajah. I highly doubt that there is a 3rd White Ajah in this game, though of course it's possible. Either way, whether they were partners or not, it doesn't change the count of claimed and dead AS.

My question back at you: Could ABR be scum?

Short answer: It's possible, but I doubt it. Long answer: Since ABR has come out as AS, I agree that he has been very cavalier about his posts and how close they come to telling lies. I think this is at best anti-town behavior: Either he's scum, or he's stupidly and pointlessly risking the mod doing something bad to him for breaking the 3 Oaths. (Note: anti-town != scummy.) In my dealings with him in our quicktopic, he's been very stubborn and not always completely forthcoming. I've never played a game with ABR before, but given what I've read, that seems like his general meta, town or scum. There is an incident that occurred either pre-game or early Day 1 (I forget exactly when) that strongly makes me think that he is bound by the 3 Oaths. There was a part of a discussion that we were having where he had a very clear and obvious choice: he could either lie, in which case I would get off of his back, or he could obfuscate, in which case I would keep hounding him. It was very simple, and lying to me then would likely carry no consequences (other than those mod-induced). He chose to obfuscate, and I grilled him more about stuff, trying to catch him in a lie. I didn't find one. (If you want me to go into more detail about this incident, I can.) A scum would have to be playing a very long game to choose to obfuscate in this situation. As one would expect, I've been paying very close attention to what he's been saying, and I haven't seen any contradictions between our QT and the main thread. If he is in fact bound by the 3 Oaths, he has given me the "I'm not scum and know of no way in which I am scum" check.

There are 2 things that give me pause: 1) In our QT, he was the one who brought up the idea of Black Ajah being potential mafia traitors. 2) and this is something I'd like him to answer for right away, because I haven't talked about it with him yet: Another early incident that stuck out was, under the umbrella of asking me about WoT flavor (I know WoT, he claims not to), and with no prompting in either the main thread or our QT, he specifically asked me how powerful Forsaken are. I noted this, but wasn't particularly worried about it until Fabian flipped Forsaken. So,

@ABR

, please answer why you were interested in Forsaken well before anybody else was.

Another quick point: ABR did in fact reveal to me quite specifically that killing is Daybreak. It was not a scum-slip to say so. He told me that he wanted me to be aware of it, and I believe he came across this information in the way he said he did: He was motivated by Kair, was not able to do anything additional because Kair only doubles Daybreak actions, therefore ABR deduced that killing is Daybreak.

Do I trust him? I'd say yes, with caveats. I'll tell you, it's really freaking hard playing in ABR's shadow.

@Mcavitylock: Yes I used the one power during the last twilight to the best of my knowledge.

This is not the answer I was expecting and that worries me. Both I and ABR claim to have used saidar last night too. We all stayed at Blacksmith. I can confirm that Sajin's detection results from last night are correct. They're the same ones I got. However, only 2 detections from the Blacksmith occurred. That means that either one of the 3 of us is lying about using saidar, or someone has messed with at least one of us in our ability to use saidar. I can say with pretty good certainty that I have not been stilled as of today.

@ABR and Sajin

, is it possible that either of you have been stilled?

There has got to be Black Ajah in this game, and given other scumtells, I very much wouldn't be surprised if Benmage was one.

Vote: Benmage.

tl;dr:
I am Norida Sedai, ABR's White Ajah partner.
I can confirm that both Sajin and ABR can detect saidar successfully and correctly.
I think ABR is town, though there are certainly things that worry me about him.
I think Benmage is Black Ajah.

[MacavityLock]

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Yes, I targeted someone (or at least attempted to) with an active saidar ability over twi 4.

Since we can detect Aes Sedai, we could narrow down the number of suspects to only a few, should one of us die.

This seems like a poorly thought-out plan. You severely limit your ability to deduce everyone's roles just so that if one of you dies in a night then the other person knows what detections were made? What if you weren't killed with Saidar? What if you were killed in a mundane fashion or through Saidin? Your whole plan goes to waste *and* you would have less information to work with from your detections.

ABR suggested this idea, which I agree with. If someone died due to saidar in the same location that we stayed at, either I or he would have a hint on figuring out who the killer was. As ABR was an obvious target for kills, it made sense and still does for me to stay with him.

[MacavityLock]

Again, why are you assuming that the only way you're going to die is through the use of Saidar?

Not assuming it's the only way, but it's a way. I'm not seeing what the big issue with this is.

Well if ABR and Sajin both claim to have used Saidar, someone is lying to us, unless one of you got roleblocked.

ABR, Sajin, and ML: Is there any chance that you got roleblocked last night?

Roleblocking is possible, as is someone having been stilled, or someone lying. I'm pretty sure I haven't been stilled, but I see no reason I couldn't have been roleblocked.

By the way,

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Why did you think this?

[MacavityLock]

Of the blacksmith choices, I think ABR is the most likely Black Ajah.

Why does someone at the Blacksmith have to be Black Ajah?

[MacavityLock]

Why does someone at the Blacksmith have to be Black Ajah?

I assumed without checking that the group of people of whom two used the power and three claimed to use the Power was selected as having been at the Blacksmith. If that was wrong, feel free to replace "Blacksmith" with "the set of people one of whom has been caught in a lie".

And how do you know someone is lying, as opposed to either being blocked or stilled?

[MacavityLock]

I still think ML/ABR could be the Black, and ML's poor vote only makes this opinion stronger.

Why is my vote poor? I've already outlined a pretty detailed case on you, which many people have agreed with. Your going after me is pure OMGUS.

[MacavityLock]

Bottom line, MacLock, did my post give you pause at all about Albert's

bona fides

? If not, how do you defend him?

I'm guessing that this refers to 2257? If so, yes, absolutely it gives me pause. If you want to keep on him about it, go for it.

I will freely admit that Sajin's confirmation that saidar was used as Albert claims is giving me pause. Note that my vote is currently on nobody.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

MoS, did you miss my question?

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Why did you think this?

[MacavityLock]

You've been coasting this game, and only recently have you been active because of pressure on you. You and ABR are the most scummy out there right now imo, and you backing him up only makes me believe the two of you are Black Ajah.

What detailed case against me? I thought most if not all doubts about me have been resolved. Pretty sure you stand alone.

I've explained why I've been quieter in this game than I would have liked, but I have not been coasting. I became more active because I chose to out myself, which I was reluctant to do before.

In my case on you in my iso post 63, I'm pretty sure you've answered exactly one of my many points: "Survivor mafia" vs "darkfriends". Other than that, all my points still stand.

[MacavityLock]

Mcavity: To the best of my knowledge, my ability resolved successfully. I think you or ABR did not show up. However I am unable to determine more without knowing the nature of your ability.

Thanks for the information on ABR. The forsaken thing sounds weird. The tests are curious. Why did you think that I had not used anything and who would your suspects have been had I not used anything?

What do you mean by "show up"?

If you had said that you had not used saidar last night from the Blacksmith, then my use and ABR's claimed use would have accounted for the two "from Blacksmith" results last night. I know my target and ABR's claimed target, and there was a contradiction with the detection results and our targets' claimed locations. Thus I would have caught someone in a lie. That is, the "from Blacksmith" results were to Silo and to Barn. ABR's target was JVW, who claimed Silo. My target, who I will not be claiming unless someone gives me a good reason, claimed to have slept at somewhere other than the Barn. Therefore, there would have been a limited number of potential liars: me, ABR, JVW, and my target.

Because all 3 of us claimed to have used saidar last night, but only 2 "from" detections occurred, that all goes out the window.

[MacavityLock]

All right Sajin, your turn: Do you think Benmage could be scum? Why or why not?

[MacavityLock]

The thing with Sajin confirming ABR's use of the Power suggests that there was Power use to detect. That in turn suggests (a) no First Oath whammy and (b) Albert did what he claimed to do, which means that something else must be turned to to explain the discrepancy. I keep going over this and getting stuck. I feel like enough of the pieces are there in front of us and we just aren't seeing which are the right ones to fit with each other.

Those detections from the Blacksmith. They say where they went from the Blacksmith

to

, right? Does that give the three of you any insight, given that you know who you targeted?

When did Sajin confirm ABR's use? Also, not knowing Sajin's target and me not providing mine make this effort kind of hard.

I'd rather not say at this point, at least not until I know what it was that you did last night, since one of you, ABR, and Sajin is likely lying. In fact, at this point, I think you need to tell us what your ability does and what you did with it last night.

I have multiple choices for twilight active abilities, and I'd be very surprised if ABR and Sajin didn't.

Anyway, putting these two things together, I think it makes sense to claim what I did last night. I attempted to Still MBL. I did this for 2 reasons:
1) Using an active twilight ability would provide more detection results, which could be used to confirm whether or not the target tells the truth about sleeping location.
2) MBL has lied in thread, and thus cannot be town AS. Stilling him would either be harmless (likely), or would succeed in hurting scum (unlikely, but fortuitous).
My expectation was that it would do nothing more than allow me potentially find a location liar. In retrospect, I should have targeted someone who would actually claim their location, but my interpretation of his Day 3 posts was that he would location claim on Day 4.

[MacavityLock]

@ML- Are you 100 percent sure that failed stills on non aes sedai targets show up on detect saidar?

No, I'm not sure of that, and I have no idea how we could find that out. Given what the role PM says about detection and stilling, it would surprise me if Kinetic "didn't allow" the use of an ability by fiat.

I'm having a hard time reading armlxs' posts as anything other than "This is rolefishing, but don't respond to it."

[MacavityLock]

Can you explain MLs lack of saidar detection in any other way?

I missed this. Huh? I detected saidar, got the same exact results as you. All I know is that there are 3 of us who claimed to have stayed at Blacksmith that used saidar, and only 2 "from" detections.

[MacavityLock]

The point is "This is a lesson, learn it, but if you respond it would make things even worse"

Do me the favor of not assuming that I'm an idiot. It was the correct play for me do what I did.

@ML You alone tried to still MBL?? It requires two people, you really thought this had any chances of success?? Balderdash.

You're grasping at straws. I thought that any chance of success was highly unlikely, but that success couldn't hurt.

You still haven't responded to any of the rest of my points.

[MacavityLock]

What points?

My iso post 63, I believe.

[MacavityLock]

The people attacking me, i.e. ML/KoC have me severely questioning their allegiance. Definitely more scummy people/worse claims out there. The only thing I can think of is scum.

This is known as OMGUS. You are attacking me and KoC for nothing but suspecting you. By the way, KoC's questions are totally reasonable and you should answer them.

@ML I thought I already answered all those questions? I.E. the linking to the other site…what did I miss? My vote on Spryex, yeah didn’t ABR, you’re partner also push this? I in agreement with Spryex think he should not live to the end of this game.

My iso post 63 points that you haven't responded to: Attack on Spyrex Day 2, well before it was necessary. Scum perspective on the darkfriend gift mechanic. Inconsistency about attacking Spyrex later. Seeming to be sure that there are Black Ajah. Attempting to prematurely end the day. Bad logic based around attacking Kair. Fishing for ABR's roleblock target when it wasn't necessary. Yeah, there's a lot you haven't responded to.

[MacavityLock]

I Just answered the reasoning behind attacking Spryex. I am still not 100% convinced he was stilled. Did you or ABR attempt to Still him? Because neither of us did. ABR also attacked Spryex, and like Spryex said himself....it isn't in the best interest to have him live, at the time he was the best target imo, especially since I was very strong at that point in disbelieving his gentling since I didn't think many AS existed, and new that neither I nor my partner attempted to gentle.

I did attempt to gentle SpyreX over twi 1. Why did your aggression towards SpyreX fade away after Day 2?

Any darkfriend gift ideas came solely from the mini.

My point was not that you had a darkfriend gift idea, but that your perspective on the topic seemed very much like it would have come from scum.

I was sure of the

possibility

of Black Ajah, and more and more people have joined that mentality. My initial suspicion came from the open-ended possibility in the mini with regards to AS. Although there were not Black AS in the mini, I felt in a game of this size it was much more likely. Didn't someone before in defense of ABR YOUR PARTNER accuse him of bringing up Black Ajah, but say it would be moronic for a Black Ajah to bring up Black Ajah, but rightttt.... what isn't scummy for your partner is scummy for me??(sarcasm).

You were

sure

that we had Black Ajah well before everybody else. My point is that I think you brought up the idea so that you could score "told you so" points when someone does flip BA. Much of your argument here is WIFOM-y.

Premature day ending is weak. It was the same thing with MBL, figured we could get the info the next day when the players caught up. People weren't so against MBL when he refused to claim location, in fact I think only I was really outwardly opposing him. But again, it makes sense for points to suite you only when they are attacking the person you want.

And I made a list earlier pointing out people who did this, not just you. I'm singling you out now because your

collection

of scumtells is enough to make me think you're scum.

[MacavityLock]

@ML You alone tried to still MBL?? It requires two people, you really thought this had any chances of success?? Balderdash.

You're grasping at straws. I thought that any chance of success was highly unlikely, but that success couldn't hurt.

Did your partner try to still me too?

ABR claims to have roleblocked JVW last twilight. I don't know any more than that.

[MacavityLock]

Worst night action ever award goes to......*drum roll* ML.

You're wrong, let it go.

[MacavityLock]

Oh nooooooo! I've just fallen into one of the massive holes in the logic of the above post.

Like what about Sajin? What about Sajin's target, who we still don't know? What about JVW or MBL lying? What about roleblocks? There are too many variables to turn the blacksmith detections into a lynch. Good old-fashioned scumhunting, that's what we need.

Speaking of, Benmage, do you think Sajin could be scum? Why or why not?

[MacavityLock]

^Someone is scared that they, or their partner is about to be hung. Good old-fashion scum hunting...or ignoring intricacies of this game that can certainly help find scum.

And yet, this doesn't address my above points that confound the blacksmith detections.

[MacavityLock]

What that JVW or MBL are lying...i see no reason not to go with what they say and pursue either of you, if it turns out false we can pursue them next.

Setting up lynches, check. Ignoring the case where his partner could be lying, check.

You're make too many assumptions about the setup and night actions, which might incorrectly implicate any of me, ABR, and Sajin. So, if your accusation is that I'm protecting ABR, well I'm protecting your partner too.

[MacavityLock]

However, considering that ML is the "other" mystical white that, in theory, can manipulate votes and there IS a vote manipulation designed to try and get ME lynched (as it hasn't been clarified).

I do not have all-powerful vote manipulation. I cannot add votes to people. I am not responsible for any additional votes now, nor will I ever be.

[MacavityLock]

Also, clarification on Sajin's target, or at least Sajin's target's sleeping location has got be discussed before people condemn either me or MBL.

[MacavityLock]

Are you ABR's partner?

Yes.

[MacavityLock]

One of your powers at minimum can affect a vote count? Yes or no.

Depends on your interpretation of "affecting vote count". I do not have direct control over adding or subtracting votes from any player.

I will no longer be here in 15 minutes, so get your questions in now.

[MacavityLock]

... But, you are saying you do have something that would make ABR's statement about White Ajah and "vote manipulation" be, in fact, a true statement?

Yes. Let me slightly amend my above statement: I do not have direct control over adding or subtracting votes

on

any player.

[MacavityLock]

Also, clarification on Sajin's target, or at least Sajin's target's sleeping location has got be discussed before people condemn either me or MBL.

I've asked him in the QT with this proposal, but I don't see it as a necessity as you and MBL are already in conflict.

That's not enough. What if MBL slept at Silo? What if Sajin was roleblocked? What if ABR was roleblocked (seems plausible, as he's been outed for a while)?

[MacavityLock]

How is contrasting statements made by you and MBL not enough?? If you're AS you can't lie. Hence he is and setting an AS up for this disaster would have to be scummy.

Wrong! Off the top of my head, I can think of a bunch of scenarios where neither I nor MBL are lying:
1) I was roleblocked. Sajin targeted someone at the Barn. No one lied.
2) ABR was roleblocked. MBL stayed at the Silo and Sajin's target stayed at the Barn. No one lied.
3) ABR was roleblocked. MBL stayed at the Silo and Sajin's target stayed at somewhere other than the Barn. Either Sajin or his target lied.
4) Sajin was roleblocked. MBL stayed at the Silo. Either ABR or JVW lied.

ML's not lying. I believe that if a Saidar use on me was detected, that it would be reported as a Saidar use but that no directional result would be given.

Assume Blacksmith->X was left out of your results.

What? If this is true, are you saying that we should assume that if Sajin's target stayed at the Barn, then no one needed to have been roleblocked for the results as given to have occurred?

Between my 4 scenarios above and MBL's statement, "Either MBL or ML is lying" is a false dilemma. The End.

[MacavityLock]

Ohh and for completeness:

Macavity, KoC, JVW, Benmage, Kai, Yos, ABR, Goat, Sajin, MBL - Can I get your Night 2 sleeping locations

As claimed in my iso post 38, I "slept" at Silo Night 2.

[MacavityLock]

vote: MrBuddyLee

Pretty hard to discount Benmage's argument of "One of these two men must be lying." If the detections are the lie, there are a lot of people pushing that lie. MBL seems to me to be the odd man out in this story.

Mora, did you think things through at all coming to this conclusion? Did you miss MBL's post 2 above yours?

[MacavityLock]

... But, you are saying you do have something that would make ABR's statement about White Ajah and "vote manipulation" be, in fact, a true statement?

Yes. Let me slightly amend my above statement: I do not have direct control over adding or subtracting votes

on

any player.

Surely your own personal vote would count?

Yes, my personal vote counts, and as far as I know it counts for 1. My statement referred to any additional powers. Sorry for any confusion here.

The problem with this reasoning is that Mufasa was a roleblocker and ABR is supposedly a roleblocker. Do you really think there's a THIRD roleblocker?

Has anyone every played a game that had 3 roleblockers?

1) These were 4 examples of why the "either MBL or ML is scum" was a false dilemma. It was not meant to be exhaustive. 2) My scenarios no longer need to apply, as MBL has claimed responsibility for the non-detection issue. How did you miss that?

[MacavityLock]

My scenarios no longer need to apply, as MBL has claimed responsibility for the non-detection issue. How did you miss that?

I didn't accept it as a proper excuse.

What about "false dilemma" don't you understand? Also, why did you answer this question when I asked it to Satael?

[MacavityLock]

Personally, I don't understand the "false" part. The argument you've made is that roleblocking could have interfered with this somehow, but MBL has basically stated in so many words that no, this is all explained by an ability of his. You are proposing situations that could not possibly have occured if MBL is telling the truth, while simultaneously defending him?

I'm also very puzzled that you, of all people, seem to be coming to MBL's defense so adamantly. That doesn't really fit right now as MBL hasn't presented anything definite worth considering.

My point in providing those scenarios was simply this: Given Benmage's argument alone, there were counterexamples to either me or MBL having lied. When I wrote those 4 examples, it was not clear to me that MBL was in fact claiming responsibility for it. Once that was made clear, we don't need those 4 counterexamples anymore.

Let's me make the same exact argument clearer: Benmage says that all menu items at McDonald's are hamburgers. I point out that there are also fries, chicken sandwiches, and filet o' fishes on the menu, thus disproving Benmage's point. MBL comes up to the counter and orders a salad. That does not mean that my points were invalid, nor does it mean that MBL won't get his salad because it's not on the menu. Benmage's argument remains a false dilemma.

I'm not defending MBL. All I'm saying is that there are 4 people who seem to have come to a consistent conclusion on the events that occurred at the Blacksmith last night: Sajin, MBL, ABR, and myself. Sajin targeted someone at the Barn, ABR targeted JVW at the Silo, I targeted MBL whose location detection was not provided. It's completely plausible that any of us are scum, but I'd be very much surprised if the events of last night didn't occur as above.

[MacavityLock]

The problem is you're in McDonalds eating a pizza and MBL is saying he made it special just for you.

Good comeback. Lrn2logic please.

[MacavityLock]

The problem is you're in McDonalds eating a pizza and MBL is saying he made it special just for you.

Good comeback. Lrn2logic please.

I count this as you yielding.

Yielding to what? I provided counterexamples. Any counterexample disproves a hypothesis. That I did not immediately provide what has turned out to likely be the actual case doesn't mean that your hypothesis is valid in any way. You're wrong. Live with it.

[MacavityLock]

Your counter examples are weak, your switch to ‘lrn2logic’ shows you couldn’t continue the debate, hence the yielding.

You tried to turn it in to "it is guaranteed that either MBL or ML is lying." I showed that that isn't true. I don't care how weak you think the counterexamples are, they're still counterexamples. If you want to make a case on either of us, that's fine. I haven't

proven

that neither of us is lying, nor did I ever claim to. All I showed was that you provided a false dilemma, and that "either MBL or ML is lying" is false. I don't know how many times I can keep explaining this.

[MacavityLock]

That’s the thing, I didn’t find your counterexamples plausible.

Plausible or not, they were

possible

.

Because no one claimed they got roleblocked.

And how sure are you that people are told when they are roleblocked?

Your craplogic continues to astound. Calling what I said a lie doesn't make it so. It's not.

By the way, until we broach the subject of massclaim, he's run up, or someone has additional info that would require it, I don't think Sajin needs to claim Ajah.

Sajin, did you target someone at the Barn last night, yes or no?

[MacavityLock]

On subject of massclaim: I think that as there are some "good" power roles (cop/investigative & doc) that have not yet been outed, I am against a massclaim at the moment. If people are generally for it, I will go along and fully claim my powers.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP: I am not aware that any of these roles must exist in this game, but I'd be surprised if we didn't have a Yellow Ajah doc in the setup.

[MacavityLock]

@MoS -

* = 7 "ajah's" + 1 black ajah.

Of course you can't give an even dispersement under that because then the double obviously contains the scum.

Sorry SpyreX, already disproved. We have 1 dead Green, 1 live claimed Green, 1 dead White, 1 live claimed White. Even assuming that 1 of the live claimed is Black, that leaves another live claimed overloading your setup.

[MacavityLock]

Macavity, last chance to admit you did anything besides stilling, because I don't particularly buy that that's what you tried to do to me.

Nope, I attempted to Still you. Before twi 4, I made ABR aware of the fact that I would be attempting to Still an in-thread liar, but I did not tell him which one. I did not expect, nor did I want, him to Still anybody along with me. My desired purpose was detection results only, and I did not expect to succeed in Stilling you, as I don't think you're AS.

[MacavityLock]

By the way, for the idiots who think that my choice of action last night was a bad one, let me give you two examples of abilities I may or may not have, but that a good player wouldn't have used last night.
1) Twilight Action - Once per game, you may choose another player to act as

Executioner

the next day. That means that your chosen player will have sole control over the lynch. That player's first vote will end the day with the voted players lynch.
2) Rapid Action - You become a

Potato

. You are now the lynch target for at least one male channeler.

If I have either of these abilities, I paraphrased them. Not using them last night was the right thing to do. I can think of a whole host of other abilities that would be correct

not

to use. So, I hope my use of Stilling as detection makes sense.

[MacavityLock]

A) If Mac is telling the truth, the average AS power probably isn't to the point its worth specifically targeting them.

All I know for a fact is my ability. My guess, given what I know about WoT, would be that my ability is on the low end of power of what Kinetic probably gave out. I would expect Red, Green, and Yellow abilities to be more powerful than mine. I think that Blue, Gray, and Brown could either more or less useful than mine, not sure.

What did SpyreX do to confirm himself as actually having been a channeler in the first place? If there is a claim, I want those who stilled (or w/e) him to come forward with some notification of success, as I'm starting to wonder if its possible for a scum to have just run the gambit claim D1.

As I stated before, I used my Gentling ability on SpyreX Twi 1. Assuming that he had the same abilities I did, I would expect that Kison-White Ajah probably did the same. I did not receive any sort of message about the efficacy of the Gentle.

[MacavityLock]

But still any different message from the gentle attempt to the stilling attempt?

No message from Kinetic on either.

@ML why didn't you hypothetically give executioner to ABR and decided the scummiest person on the QT?

Maybe I don't 100% trust ABR, like I stated in my claiming post. Maybe I don't have that exact ability. Maybe you should stop asking stupid questions.

[MacavityLock]

@Macavitylock: You too.

I will not be doing this until after an AS-or-not massclaim.

[MacavityLock]

For Twi 4, that's fine. I stayed at the Blacksmith.
Power from Silo to Blacksmith
Power from River to Blacksmith
Power from Blacksmith to Silo
Power from Blacksmith to Barn

Also, I noticed something interesting just now when viewing you in isolation:

All I know is that there are 3 of us who claimed to have stayed at Blacksmith that used saidar, and only 2 "from" detections.

But then:

What? If this is true, are you saying that we should assume that if Sajin's target stayed at the Barn, then no one needed to have been roleblocked for the results as given to have occurred?

So when MBL gave you an out that directly conflicted with the number of detections from the Blacksmith that you claimed to have, why did you not discount it immediately?

MBL has claimed that if he's targeted by saidar, no detection location results will occur. This is consistent with there being 3 saidar actions at the Blacksmith last night, but only 2 detections from the Blacksmith.

[MacavityLock]

Assume Blacksmith->X was left out of your results.

All I'm given is directional results.

[MacavityLock]

Again, why am I the only one grilled about this? Sajin still hasn't said whether or not he targeted someone at the Barn last night.

[MacavityLock]

After having seen the same questions over and over from Benmage, which I have answered consistently and rationally, I am officially done responding to him. I think he's scum, I think everything he's written is full of craplogic, and my vote is on him. If anyone thinks he has a valid question for me, you're going to need to ask me yourself, because I'm literally going to be skipping his posts from here on out.

Given MBL's claim that any detection targeting him will not show up, everything has been shown to be consistent, except for whether or not Sajin targeted someone from the Barn. Sajin needs to answer that.

[MacavityLock]

Also, can we please claim sleeping locations BEFORE nightfall this time so we have the locations of dead people accounted for as well? Or is there a reason why that would be dangerous?

I'm thinking that there might be some danger involved. Weren't you the one that said that scum "finding" you would be a Very Bad Thing?

I do think there is merit to knowing where dead people slept though. I think it might make sense to have people provide two possible locations of where they might sleep tonight. It makes the logic puzzle harder, but less risk of locations actually helping scum. That is, if knowing the location helps scum, we've at least reduced the danger from "guaranteed they know where I'm going to sleep" to "they have a 50-50 shot."

[MacavityLock]

It's not condemning him. I've already vouched for the cause of the problem.

So obviously, if you think the detect is a clear sign of scum, the correct play is to try to lynch me, and then if I come up scum, lynch him.

Good job, someone who makes sense. Now Sajin should tell us whether he targeted someone at the Barn.

Bets on whether or not he targeted someone who ended up dead last night? Strongly thinking that those guys are both Black Ajah.

[MacavityLock]

And I think the claim should proceed one step at a time.

1) Claim AS/not AS (complete)
2) Claim detects for previous nights, look for discrepancies
3) Claim nightaction targets if necessary
4) Claim full nightactions if necessary
5) Claim roles if necessary

FOS: MoS, Sajin, KoC

2 and 3 should be switched above. That way no one can tailor their targets to detections.

[MacavityLock]

Preview edit: MacavityLock is on the right track, but I still say that leaving the detection claims until the very end is better, and if we do 3, 4, and 5 at the same time it's much faster.

Kair, my desire is to avoid a full claim if we can. Doing step 3 and then step 2 from MBL's plan will satisfy your desire to get to the logic puzzle. Waiting for 4 and 5 until after and only if necessary allows us to avoid outing more useful roles. If people think full claim is the way to go, I agree with Kair on just pushing step 2 to the end.

[MacavityLock]

I agree with Goat on delaying color-claiming. Partner-claiming makes good sense.

[MacavityLock]

I still say targets first, given that some people may/will have targeted people who died that night. Claiming targets first will allow everyone to check their own detects first to see if things fit. Then all detects get claimed so everyone has a chance to check. At least that's the way I see it.

I'm definitely in agreement about partner claiming right away.

[MacavityLock]

@Mort. You got new detection results from the Mod.... i got nothing, who else had things change for them?

This was a mod error. Not a place for scumhunting.

There might be people who have abilities they don't WANT to use, like MacLock claims.

This is not exactly what I claim. I claim that there are some Ajahs (of which mine is one, there may or may not be others, I don't know) that do not have better and unlimited use Twilight or Daybreak actions than just Stilling or Gentling. This is one of the reasons I'm still against a full claim.

But he still tried to still.

Not everyone is as smart as me. I actually didn't think of using Stilling as detection until after Twi 3 actions had been submitted, so I did nothing Twi 3.

[MacavityLock]

The same could be accomplished by Gentling any AS, Stilling any of the 3 non-AS. No coordination necessary.

[MacavityLock]

One of the things that should have been asked with partner claiming: Do you think your partner could be Black Ajah? Why or why not?

Also, I'm toying with this question: Does anyone want to claim that they have a Daybreak ability? Not what the ability is, but whether or not their abilities include a Daybreak action. Right now, we know that killing is Daybreak via Isacc's double kill. So if no one else has or is willing to admit to a Daybreak ability, we'd know that Kair's ability is entirely scum-centric and thus he'd be more likely to be scum. I also don't think that a Daybreak-action claim would be all that helpful to scum.

[MacavityLock]

I propose that anyone who targeted Spyrex, Setael, or Shadow Knight with the One Power during twilight 1 should claim now.

As stated before in thread, I attempted to Gentle SpyreX Twi 1. While I certainly can't guarantee this, I highly suspect that Kison also targeted SpyreX with a Gentle Twi 1, both because of our Ajah power and because of a saidar detection.

In addition, I have found another puzzle that will reveal ANOTHER scum.

MacavityLock, Setael (claiming for Faraday, not himself), TSS, and Goatrevolt need to reveal the locations of their twilight 3 targets.

There is more to the story, but I cannot explain further until those claims have been made (in any order).

As stated before in thread, I had not yet thought up using Stilling or Gentling as detection before Twi 3. I targeted no one Twi 3.

[MacavityLock]

I'm Yellow Ajah. I healed him that night. As it turns out, he died anyway, which means that at least two people tried to kill him.

This suggests

5

kill attempts over Twi 1. Color me incredulous.

[MacavityLock]

So right now we have the following possibilities:

1) KoC or JVW is lying scum.

This 1 and 1 I like. I see this as a clear cut case of one liar, one not. Right now, I see JVW as the more likely liar, but would probably be willing to go for either.

2) ABR/Mora or Yos2 are lying scum.

I can back up the current list of Windmill detections as given. Specifically, there was a power use from Windmill to Windmill, and there was a power use from Barn to Windmill. I'm a little worried that there are other possibilities in this scenario. (For example, Yos2 and ABR are scum together, Mora town. Yos2 blocks Mora, ABR does... something else.) I have a question: Mora, did you target someone with saidar over Twi 3? If so, where were they? I don't think I need to know who you targeted. (This may have been answered already, but if so, I missed it.)

[MacavityLock]

I think that TSS's long post contains way too many assumptions to be all that useful.

I've just had a thought about Isacc being a Gholam: the OP doesn't affect Gholams. That might be why my protect failed, if Isacc did indeed dismember Shadow Knight.

But you were ostensibly healing

SK

, so it doesn't particularly make sense that your power would've failed due to Isacc. Anyway,

unvote. Vote: JVW.

[MacavityLock]

Here's a thought...I find an anomaly..KoC knows where old KoC slept...

This is tantamount to requesting a mod-kill.

[MacavityLock]

OK, that vote count is ridiculous. I'm sure you'll be asking me if I have anything to do with this because of my "vote manipulation." I don't. I have no idea what's going on here. If you need me to claim my ability, I can. I will say that I have been using my ability over the past bunch of vote counts, but that I am no longer. When I claim my ability, and you compare it to those vote counts, you will be able to see how it's applied. And if all that comes out and people feel like they'd need additional confirmation on my ability, I can provide after ~24 hours from this post. To repeat, I have nothing to do with JVW having zero votes, I have previously stated that I have nothing to do with the extra vote on Benmage, and I have been using my vote manipulation ability recently, but am no longer.

Mora, any interest in answering my question about where you targeted Twi 3?

[MacavityLock]

Mora, any interest in answering my question about where you targeted Twi 3?

I don't think that information is necessary.

Why do you control the flow of info? Seriously, I think it is necessary to dig deeper in to your "ABR/Mora is scum or Yos2 is" premise.

[MacavityLock]

Because I know the answer to the question. Mora has already told me what he did Twilight 3. I know the answer, and I don't think him revealing it particularly helps us at all. If you want to explain why you think it helps, maybe I could be persuaded.

I don't want to give too much away so I'm not going to elaborate too much here, but I don't think I understand the mechanics of roleblocking and how it affects detections so as to know whether or not your "ABR/Mora, Yos2" premise is correct or not. Mora's answer here would help me understand it. I would at least prefer that someone, hopefully everybody, can check to make sure that your conclusion here is solid.

[MacavityLock]

If you're asking whether or not Mora's action showed up in the detections, they did not, at least as reported by Mora. If someone else who slept there that night wants to contradict the detection claims I made from Mora, then we might have something to talk about.

As I was also staying at Windmill Twi 3, I don't just not dispute those detections, I'll gladly confirm them. Then just to be sure, are you saying then that Mora claimed that he had an action Twi 3, and it didn't show up in detections as reported? (This being distinct from claiming to not have an action.)

I don't see why MBL *has* immune to the One Power, unless someone can quote me where MBL said he was immune. I can see why that is a possibility, but that doesn't make him scum automatically.

I also don't remember ever seeing "immunity to One Power" as something MBL claimed. I think it may soon be time for him to claim more about the flavor and mechanics of the detection omission.

However, as JVW or KoC will be lynched today, I don't see this as necessary until at least tomorrow.

[MacavityLock]

Where did Shadow Knight sleep N1? I think I've asked this like 12 times, and the people who can detect should be able to figure it out from the matrix of information.

I really don't know if we

can

figure this out, and we certainly can't do it without a concerted effort including everybody. Given the potential for scum roleblocks and such, there's no guaranteed way to tell. I can say that, assuming he used saidar, was not blocked, Kison attempted to Still SpyreX, and that neither Kison nor I was blocked, SK didn't stay at the Windmill.

[MacavityLock]

Oh, and my understanding of roleblocking is that the roleblocked action does not go ahead at all; thus there is nothing to detect.

How sure are we of this?

[MacavityLock]

The shadow vote is likely an aes sedai action and they could probably remove it if they wanted to.

I am willing to vote JVW. There is a lot of claiming that needs to happen first though.

I'm assuming it is ML's because he said something alone the lines of vote manipulation.

However we should never assume SpryeX was 100% gentled and should be wary. He himself admits it would be an error for the town to have him go to the end of this game.

I've already said multiple times that it's not mine.

And by the way, aren't all you magic fools supposed to be claiming

tonight's

targets, not previous nights' targets?

No.

I thought the idea was for us

tomorrow

to first claim our targets and then later claim locations to keep people from tailoring their target claims to the location claims.

I have no idea why people are claiming stuff now.

This is also what I thought.

[MacavityLock]

I attempted to refute ML's comment about my theory, and he's not given me the courtesy of replying.

Well, your explanation doesn't make much sense. Based on books only, a Yellow's power is applied to the person being healed, not the person or thing that did the hurting. Dismemberment

might

make sense as an unblockable kill, but I'm not sure. Do you agree that it's 1-and-1 between you and KoC? If so, a) why protest so much against your own death when you know it will lead to scum death tomorrow, and b) why not go hard after KoC, given that you and he are pretty much the only options for today? If you don't think it's between you and KoC, why not?

However, before the day ends, I think I would like to know this as well.

JVW, do you get detects? What were your Silo-> and ->Silo detects N1? MoS and KoC say there was only one, from Silo->Stables I believe. That's why you're being lynched--because there's no detect corresponding to your supposed protect of SK.

Any of Koc, JVW and MoS, can you list all detects to and from the Silo? Are all detects accounted for assuming that one of KoC or JVW is scum? As I'd like to know this before the end of the day,

unvote.

@MBL

, do me a favor and in your next post unvote. In that same post, you can reapply your vote if you like.

[MacavityLock]

OK, MBL please vote for whoever you like, though please make it not on JVW for now. I'd like to get this out of the way today.

[MacavityLock]

I'm testing something out with MBL before the end of the day. I intend to revote JVW soon, but some things should happen first. MBL should vote for someone. Someone should claim all Silo Twi 1 detections.

[MacavityLock]

Try it one more time, just to be sure, please. "color=red"

[MacavityLock]

Night One: 1 to Stables, 1 from river

Has the from River to Silo detection on Night 1 been accounted for?

[MacavityLock]

Your detects now match up with KoC, I believe, meaning KoC's neck isn't on the line if you come up town.

Wait, how so?

Yeah, I don't see that at all. The way I see it is that JVW just confirmed that it's a 1-for-1 between him and KoC.

@mod

, request votecount.

[MacavityLock]

Thanks Kinetic. Please note that in the vote count, MBL is not listed as voting even though he obviously just voted for me. I claim responsibility for this. This is proof that he is not immune to the One Power, and thus not a Gholam. MBL, in about 24 hours, you will be able to vote again as per normal. That concludes this test of the Emergency Gholam Detection System.

[MacavityLock]

Has this been done before? I’m curious because would we receive OP detects from the day room. Fabian hinted at this day one, but he was claiming the male, not female detection…I’m just curious if we would detect this usage (assuming it is done with the OP)

Yes, I have used it on at least Days 3 and 5, including a Day 5 use before this one on MBL. I forget if I used it during other days.

[MacavityLock]

In addition, you all our wasting our time by rehashing this JVW vs KoC issue. I already made sure that neither was roleblocked BEFORE I told anyone of the inconsistency. Everything fits, one of them has to be scum.

And what if a roleblocker (either claimed or unclaimed) is lying? Again, I ask

Has the from River to Silo detection on Night 1 been accounted for?

If we do make this a 1-and-1, let's be sure about it.

[MacavityLock]

MoS, please answer my damn question.

In addition, you all our wasting our time by rehashing this JVW vs KoC issue. I already made sure that neither was roleblocked BEFORE I told anyone of the inconsistency. Everything fits, one of them has to be scum.

And what if a roleblocker (either claimed or unclaimed) is lying? Again, I ask

Has the from River to Silo detection on Night 1 been accounted for?

If we do make this a 1-and-1, let's be sure about it.

[MacavityLock]

Are roleblocker could have lied, sure, but the River to Silo detection on Night 1 is supposedly Benmage attempting to Bond me. There is, of course, a strong possibility that because he failed, it wouldn't show up, but I think that the Sajin/Benmage pair can probably confirm that the River to Silo detection is accounted for, without us having to reveal any other sensitive information.

OK, this is what I was missing. Thanks. There is one minor other possibility: Benmage and a roleblocker are both lying about Twi 1. Given JVW's admitting that he did not receive a "you're roleblocked" message, as well as we'd need two liars for that possibility, I find that highly unlikely. I'm pretty sure that this does correctly identify JVW and KoC as a 1-and-1.

[MacavityLock]

Given Sajin's claim, I'm willing to claim sleeping locations before we go to twilight. However, I'm suspicious of Setael, KoC and Kairyuu going along with that plan BEFORE Sajin's claim, because it was CLEARLY more advantageous for us to claim targets tomorrow BEFORE claiming sleeping locations.

I'm going to agree pretty much with all of the above, though I still worry about the fact that we had 2 notices last night.

I'm moving tomorrow, so I don't expect to post much until the 2nd (assuming no internet issues).

[MacavityLock]

OK, finished moving. There's a lot I need to catch up on, but there's a few things to post after my skim of the past few days.

First off, I think that KoC-JVW is the 1-and-1 we want to test today. I think that Setael-Sajin is probably the 1-and-1 we want to check next. I still have a few questions though. I might have missed this, but just to be sure: Set and Sajin, do you each claim responsibility for one of the Barn notes posted today?

By voting for myself, I would have to consider myself scum. THerefore, in voting for myself, I would be saying that I am scum, and I am pretty sure that's a lie, so I would assume at that point I would lose my powers.

Your PM mentions self-votes, yes or no?

@Macavity, do these match your N1 detects?

Windmill
One from Barn
Two to Stables

Yes sir they do.

[MacavityLock]

charter, I'm your mason/neighbor buddy. Feel free to ask me any questions in our quicktopic.

[MacavityLock]

charter, I'm your mason/neighbor buddy. Feel free to ask me any questions in our quicktopic.

Ummm. I didn't get anything about this in my PM, nor any quicktopic.

... Interesting. Well, either Kinetic messed up, or charter is a big stinking liar.

[MacavityLock]

Confirmed that this seems to be a misread of a role PM. We are now conversing in QT.

[MacavityLock]

incredibly unlikey chance we might catch someone in a lie, even though we haven't done so yet this game

Oh, I think we have. We just haven't proven it yet, because the lynch was steered away from JVW. Yes yes goat, I know you have a theory, but does it explain the missing N1 kill?

TSS has got to know more than he is letting on about kills. The "missing N1 kill" is tenuous at best, especially because you're ascribing

3

kills to Isacc. Something is fishy here.

I'd like for charter, Sajin, and Benmage to post their targets before I do.

[MacavityLock]

@Sajin: Did you receive my motivation? If so, why did you not use it? If not, then charter is scum (assuming that Yos' claimed target matches with detection results).

@all: To repeat, I targetted Sajin. The fact that there is no second note means that either I was roleblocked or Sajin failed to use his ability a second time. If it was the first then it is EXTREMELY likely that I've been right this whole time and charter (formerly Albert) is scum and blocked me. The possibility of Sajin using a different power with the motivation is all but nonexistant, given that he is claiming to have only used one ability (given by the "my target" in his last post)

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that I was right, though the Moratorium issue will need to be looked into also.

vote: charter

I question why you'd vote charter given this. Sajin could be scum by virtue of not using motivation sensibly. Between Yos2 and charter, either could have targeted Sajin or you, as detections have

not

been matched up. Why does ABR/charter blocking you automatically make him scum? And why is charter worth voting for now while a ton of info still needs to be dumped?

[MacavityLock]

Damn me spam posting, but I'm guessing its going to be...blue?

Why would you guess this? Why would you guess at all? This is ridiculously scummy.

[MacavityLock]

Damn me spam posting, but I'm guessing its going to be...blue?

Why would you guess this? Why would you guess at all? This is ridiculously scummy.

How.. the green bonds, the red roleblocks, the brown drops notes, the white vote manipulates, the yellow protects..he claimed tracker w.t.f. is left, blue!

Go home.

Gray. Learn to count.

[MacavityLock]

You answered a question directed at others, asked in such a manner so as to hopefully catch scum if answered wrong.

[MacavityLock]

Targeted Sajin.

[MacavityLock]

Armlx's roleblock targets: ABR, MOS, Kison, MacLock, Setael.

This is disturbing.

I was not informed of a roleblock Twi 4. However, that would be

another

explanation of why a detection of my Still on MBL didn't occur Twi 4. Why didn't armlx or TSS come forward to claim responsibility for this instead of leaving me floundering?

Also, I

really

don't like it when people modify other's quotes without making it completely obvious that those quotes were modified. TSS never actually said that exactly; on Day 5 he said

Armlx's targets: ABR, MOS, Kison, MacLock.

[MacavityLock]

ACtually, TSS had a good poitn.

Why is everyone claiming color now?

Because some people will have to triple up on colors, and those people are probably scum.

This is a crappy assumption. See Tar's Babylon 5 game for reasons that symmetry like that would generally be a bad thing for a game like this. (I don't think Kinetic would disagree with me saying that he's a Tar disciple.)

Armlx's roleblock targets: ABR, MOS, Kison, MacLock, Setael.

This is disturbing.

I was not informed of a roleblock Twi 4. However, that would be

another

explanation of why a detection of my Still on MBL didn't occur Twi 4. Why didn't armlx or TSS come forward to claim responsibility for this instead of leaving me floundering?

This is of course assuming that armlx roleblocked me as opposed to Gentling or Stilling me or somesuch. armlx, what did you target me with Twi 4?

[MacavityLock]

I'd like to say that ABR has been voicing his suspicion of Kair for the longest time, and it doesn't seem far-fetched that he'd block him. charter's postings in our QT have only strengthened my town read.

Who else needs to target claim?

[MacavityLock]

Target claims so far:

...

And that is everyone.

No it's not, MoS hasn't target claimed yet.

So Albert viewed Kai as a scum with a motivating ability?

Have you been reading the same game I have? ABR's been calling Kair scum since Day 2. I don't think he is at this point, but ABR never requested my counsel in making his roleblocking decisions.

@charter: You'd better have a damn good reason why you blocked a claimed motivator (who is almost 100% confirmed based on COP INVESTIGATION)

What cop investigation cleared you? Also, given the way the notices contradicted each other, how can we trust them? Set was town, so since a) we don't know which Day 4 notice was hers and b) all other notices have been claimed by Sajin, I don't know how we can put any stock in them.

[MacavityLock]

@ML: I was cleared by the Twilight 4 note, which correctly asserted that there were two people at my location. Those two people were myself and Mufasa. We have lynched Mufasa and discovered that he "did not have the best intentions of the town at heart." I do not like how you are throwing crap at a cop who has been doing rather well, and looks quite pro-town, especially, as SpyreX so kindly pointed out, on reread regarding the Fabian issue.

1) That was the twi 3 note, not twi 4. That note was produced by Sajin, not Set.
2) We know that one of the note providers is wrong based on the 2 twi 4 notes, whether scum/naive/etc.
3) Set flipped town, and is thus likely to be the correct note provider.

You are in no way confirmed.

[MacavityLock]

3. So because Set flipped town Sajin must be the one who is wrong, even though his investigation was ACCURATE? If you wish to put your trust in Setael, then you should take note that she rationalized HERSELF to be the naive one, and thought that Sajin was likely also town AND accurate.

ALSO, even if you do not find me to be confirmed, do you consider me likely scum? Do you think that Albert had any REASON to consider me likely scum after he confirmed my ability?

We have no way of knowing whether or not Sajin's note was accurate or not, due to Slicey getting dead and MBL refusing to location claim.

I do not think you are likely scum at this point. I make no claim that I understand ABR's scum-dar in any way. However, I don't think that confirming your ability = confirming your townness. There's no reason a scum motivator couldn't exist.

[MacavityLock]

I agree with Yos's post 3414 wholeheartedly.

I think there's a good chance that Sajin is scum.

I have charter's detections and sleeping location from our QT. Would you like me to post?

MoS, you've been doing the "I know I'm town, therefore I should control the order things happen and what I'm willing to claim" for a while now. But the fact is the rest of us don't know if you're town, so do not dodge the following question: Kair necro'ed the post where you said that you had a ghost vote. Was that ghost vote your Ajah ability or not?

[MacavityLock]

Yes, please post charter's information, ML.

That is in fact an ajah-specific ability, and this has been confirmed in thread by another player. Those were the posts I was talking about necroing, not the post about my ghost vote that Kairyuu brought up.

OK, just to be sure, you're saying that your ajah ability gives you an additional vote to use on someone?

[MacavityLock]

Essentially, yes. I was the reason for the extra vote on Benmage the other day. I did it to confirm myself should that become necessary later on. I was not, however, responsible for the double-voting that SpyreX claimed responsibility for, nor does my extra vote have to be used on the same person that I am voting normally.

OK then, I'm calling you out. Earlier in the game, you questioned whether or not I actually did anything during Twi 4. This was before I had discussed the fact that I didn't have anything better than Stilling or Gentling.

MoS, did you miss my question?

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Why did you think this?

I'd rather not say at this point, at least not until I know what it was that you did last night, since one of you, ABR, and Sajin is likely lying. In fact, at this point, I think you need to tell us what your ability does and what you did with it last night.

When you said this, the question only makes sense if you knew that as White Ajah, I didn't have a useful night ability. This to me seemed like proof that either you were White Ajah, or your partner was. Since Mora is Blue and you are not White (the ghost vote does not match my ability), you need to explain right now how you knew that I didn't have a useful night ability. Because the only explanations I can figure have you as scum.

[MacavityLock]

The page before I made that post, you claimed to be ABR's partner. ABR had claimed that his partner had a vote manipulation ability.

Since I also had an ability that dealt with votes, I surmised that yours was also a day ability and therefore you would not necessarily have something useful to do at night.

As such, I assumed you had not done anything and that was consistent with the facts I was trying to solve at the time.

Bleh. I think that what I italicized is a leap, but I guess this makes sense.

Sajin, why do you think that alignment changes with Gentling?

[MacavityLock]

If, by this time tomorrow, MOS has not claimed, my offer of a color claim as a good-faith showing will be rescinded. It is information you don't need and it will not benefit the town to have, so rescindment does not reflect badly on me, but MOS's continued intransigence on claiming detections -- which we

do

need -- reflects very badly indeed on him. JVW should also go immediately-type soon, but the one who is here and posting is avoiding the question harder.

You

don't

have something important to share? Really?

But certainly neither Benmage nor Sajin is the proper lynch for toda, nor even MOS; the time draws near for me to tell you all who the proper lynch for today is, but that time is not yet.

[MacavityLock]

I also know that ABR/charter, while bound to the Oath Rod, is of interest to the Pattern. I am not clear exactly what that means, but it does not simply mean "channeler", of that I am certain.

At what point did you learn this?

[MacavityLock]

BTW,

I have an LA coming up July 20-28 or so.

As such, even though I'd like the scummiest types to claim locations and detections first, I cannot post mine any later than the 18th or 19th. (I will of course provide them earlier if it is my time to do so.)

TSS, you have said that ABR/charter

is

bound by the Oath Rod, yes? Only AS are bound. Please note my question in 3504.

[MacavityLock]

At what point did you learn this?

Check my targeting list. (Technically I suppose

I

learned nothing of ABR until day 4 when I entered the game, but I don't think that's what you mean.)

If you mean when I learned that it is not coterminous with "channeler," that came via mod question.

I'm interested to know when you (your player, you know what I mean) learned that he is a) bound by the Oath Rod and b) that he is "of interest to the Pattern". If it is based on your targeting, please do me the favor of telling me what night. I don't have that info handy.

[MacavityLock]

Thanks. I have nothing more than a hunch about what's going on with ABR/charter, but TSS's claim about him seems valid. As ABR gave me the "I'm not scum, etc." statement in our QT, and with TSS's claim that ABR/charter is Oath Rod bound, I'm pretty satisfied that charter is town.

I'm also pretty satisfied with a 1-and-1 on Yos2 and TSS, and Yos2 is clearly the one that needs to go first.

Vote: Yos2

[MacavityLock]

Here, found it.

Anyway, now that I'm claimed...one thing that disturbes me is that there actaully is a line in the Aes Sedi role PM, I'm not going to quote it directly right here, but it basically says that you aren't allowed to state that you know someone is scum if you don't know that or else you're breaking the first oath' all of you Aes Sedi know what I'm talking about. Didn't Albert quite specifically do that?

Anyone with a real Aes Sedi role PM should know exactally what I'm talking about here, and should know that I am, in fact, bound to the three oaths in my role PM. I have no idea what TSS is talking about, but he'd better explain himself, fast.

Weak sauce. Given book flavor, I would fully expect a Black Ajah to know what the Oaths are, as they are generally bound by, and subsequently released from, them.

Unvote

for now to be sure that locations and detections are fully revealed before the days end. I have the full intention to revote for Yos2, and will do so at request before I go on my LA.

I see no reason to not to provide mine now: I was at the River and my detections match with JVW's in 3505.

[MacavityLock]

Revised River detections:
2 internal to River
1 from Windmill
1 to Blacksmith

[MacavityLock]

If benmage, who I know to be town, lost his powers for THAT then I can't see a scenario where ABR isn't scum.

I having a hard time with this too. Benmage's potential lies in the pointed out posts seem very light in comparison to what ABR did. I would like to ask if Sajin saw anything that could be considered a lie in their QT around this time. (Similar question to SpyreX if you got masonized w/ Benmage.) TSS, given that you found ABR to be bound by the Oath Rod, do you have anything to say in terms of this? My gut still says that charter is town.

Yos2 still needs to die tomorrow.

As I'm going on V/LA, I may not be around to report my target/location/detections right away.

[MacavityLock]

It could have just been a delayed death effect.

This. My assumption is that this accounts for the missing kill on Night 5. (Note: Strangulation occurred during the 2 previous nights.) I would bet it was delayed either by virtue of being stronger by being bonded or something to do with his channel-ness.

[MacavityLock]

It could have just been a delayed death effect.

This. My assumption is that this accounts for the missing kill on Night 5. (Note: Strangulation occurred during the 2 previous nights.) I would bet it was delayed either by virtue of being stronger by being bonded or something to do with his channel-ness.

Actually, I was talking about SpyreX dying as a result of being gentled.

Ah. Misread yours then (just gotten off the red eye :} ). I wasn't.

[MacavityLock]

Limited access only for right now. Judging from what I see, Yos2 needs to go today, probably Mora tomorrow. More to come as I catch up and return fully on July 29.

One note: I do not know whether or not my action on MBL

failed

, all I know is that its detection was not listed.

[MacavityLock]

Misread something from MBL; Mora may not be tomorrow's lynch.

Before today ends, we 100% need to hear from Sajin: target, location, detections.

My target last night was KoC. Why did detects happen first?

[MacavityLock]

Has JVW not posted yet today? Sajin, where did you target and why didn't your targets succeed?

A very important question we need to consider: We have to assume that there are at least 2 Black Ajah. Why hasn't anyone been Stilled yet? I'm starting to consider theories around this though I'm not sure if they're worth discussing at this time. Still, this needs to be kept in mind as we continue.

[MacavityLock]

Yosarian is coming up with more and more convoluted and egregious explanations, when really, the simplest one will suffice: he's scum.

Yes, he's clearly getting lynched today. The job now is to figure out who else is scum. I feel like we're getting somewhere. JVW, who did you attempt to target? Sajin, where did you target? I'll try to collect these, but it would be very helpful to collect last night's info to see what else we need. Right now, everyone should/should have already provide(d) targets and any interesting investigative info (e.g. According to Goat, Yos targeted TSS.) Once that happens, locations and detections.

[MacavityLock]

Location detections from everybody else. Mora, give whatever you know of MOS, too, and JVW, tell who you targeted never mind the asserted blockage.

Not yet! I want all targets first please.

[MacavityLock]

MoS hasn't revealed his location detections to me for last night.

I'm assuming that's because, you know, he's dead. Do you know if he targeted anyone last night?

TSS, same question with respect to armlx.

[MacavityLock]

Everything in this list is what is claimed by that person.

Claimed Saidar targets -
Mora - Targeted (Track) MBL. Mora saw that MBL didn't target anybody. (MBL claims that Mora is correct.)
TSS - Targeted Mora. Was roleblocked. "Mora's night action looks fraudulent." Is that based on any investigative info, or was more scumhunt-y?
charter - Targeted (Roleblock) Yos.
YoS - Targeted (Roleblock?) MoS.
Goat - Targeted (Track) Yos. Goat saw that Yos lied about his targeting of MoS and in fact targeted TSS instead.
ML - Targeted (Gentle) KoC.
JVW - Targeted (Heal) TSS.
KoC - No target yet?
Sajin - No target location yet? Why no result?

Claimed other targets -
Kair - Targeted Sajin (not Saidar).
MBL - Didn't target anybody.

Did I miss anything or get anything wrong? KoC and Sajin need to provide their targets like now so that we can move on to detections and locations.

[MacavityLock]

I claimed my target in the first post of this day, IIRC, but it was Goat.

Nuh uh.

Hm. Poisoning and manual strangulation, indicated non-Aes Sedai kill methods. Interesting.

Detects from everyone before we go anywhere, I think.
From the Barn, I detected:
1 from Blacksmith
1 from River
1 to Windmill

I suspect I already know who the Windmill detect is, so that just leaves the two powers who acted on the Barn from the River and Blacksmith. Let's get this done.

Amended list:
Claimed Saidar targets -
Mora - Targeted (Track) MBL. Mora saw that MBL didn't target anybody. (MBL claims that Mora is correct.)
TSS - Targeted Mora. Was roleblocked. "Mora's night action looks fraudulent." Is that based on any investigative info, or was more scumhunt-y?
charter - Targeted (Roleblock) Yos.
YoS - Targeted (Roleblock?) MoS.
Goat - Targeted (Track) Yos. Goat saw that Yos lied about his targeting of MoS and in fact targeted TSS instead.
ML - Targeted (Gentle) KoC.
JVW - Targeted (Heal) TSS. Was roleblocked.
KoC - Targeted (Heal?) Goat.
Sajin - No target location yet? Why no result?

Claimed other targets -
Kair - Targeted Sajin (not Saidar).
MBL - Didn't target anybody.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, It was a heal, ML.

No prob. I just want to make sure we've got all complete info. We absolutely need locations and detections before the day ends as well.