DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Yosariwen]

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

Have you played with at least one member of all other hydras?

[Yosariwen]

Hmm...I think that, because of the nature of the game, people who make a lot of extra, wasted posts are scummy. Lurking is still very bad, but spamming isn't great either; we basically want to do at least one lynch every scumkill, so every 12 pages, and more would be better.

Posting is still good, we should still be lynching lurkers and such, but posts should either be activly scumhunting and wagoning or at least activly contributing to the game in some way. I think the worst offender so far is PoketheAlpaca, who has two completly useless posts so far.

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

Have you

modded or

played with at least one member of all other hydras?

Yes, I have.

<<PF

This one is especally bad, especally for a TWO PAGE GAME.

I agree with everyhting PF has said.
Ill reread later.

Why make an completly contentless post like this?

Vote:PoketheAlpaca

(Note that I do NOT want this to go to the extent that people are afraid to say stuff; everyone should be posting content, we do not want to get into a "short and sweet" situation where the game dies because people are afraid to post, and a lynch every 12 pages should NOT be that hard in any case. It's just complete spam posts like this one that look anti-town to me here.)

Also, I tend to disagree with Trotsky; if I can tell the two heads apart, I expect it'll be somewhat easier for me to read the hydra's alignment, and to follow both people's lines of thought and stuff.

-Yos

[Yosariwen]

Sorry Im not posting much here. Changing acounts is more detestable than I thought.

Ill give you my thoughts tonight.

Tajo..

This is exactally the kind of wasted post I was voting you for, tajo.

Why not just wait and make a full post when you "post your thoughts tonight"? I see that you did make a full, more detailed post later, but why not just make that one? This is not a speed game; one post a day is fine, no need to let us know you're going to post later or whatever.

So, anyway, on that note, I'll add an FoS: Every post signer

Uh...was this a joke? Do you actually think there's some way that signing a post is scummy?

5. Death the Hogfather - Whatever this "character" is you are using.. it isn't helping us AT ALL. I am inclined to lynch you. Now. Die lurker Die.
...
VOTE Death the Hogfather
I propose we simply lynch them. Now. And then see what people have to say about that.
Unless they want to try helping the town, that is.

Hmm. Let me check his posts:

Ok, his *post* would be more accurate. Yeah, they're lurking, which is just unacceptable, especally in a hydra game.

Fos

We also need to hear more from apples and banana as well, I agree with that; I can understand why people think they may be trying to fly under the radar here.
-Yos

[Yosariwen]

Also,

FOS : Everyone

I know we are supposed to take this game slow PostCount-wise.. but that doesn't mean we have to take it slow time-wise. Why is there only, like, 3 posts today, by 2 different hydras. Keeping our post-count low only gives us any real advantage if we actually USE the advantage to lynch people. Ideally scum.

So.. lets do it.

I do agree with this. Lurking=bad, especally if it slows the game to a halt.

Anyway, considering that the number of wagons we're going to have this game is limited by posts instead of days, there is going to be (and should be) a strong bias in favor of hammering vs. unwagoning and starting over. For that reason, if Apples has something to say, if they want to claim, if they have a defense, if they have an argument for why someome else should be lynched instead of them, or if they have any last words, they should make it now. We are not going to wait forever, either.
-Yos

[Yosariwen]

Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.
Anyway, sex with shaft.ed's wife really seems pro-town to me here; I really get a good vibe from them.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block.

Could be; in fact, almost certanly is true at this point, considering the time that's passed. Or else the SK might not have been telling the truth about having submitted the kill yet.

I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148. That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch.

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I'm having trouble remembering who is who, which makes meta especally hard, and it gets even worse when people post in their origional accounts and I can't remember who goes with what hydra. If you do a game like this again, Adel, it might help if you put that info in the first post. Let me post the list here, from the queau thread,for reference:

*1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (DGB+Plum)
2. Apples and Banana (SensFan+xofelf)
*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390)
*4. Trotsky (Korts+roflcopter)
*5.

Death the Hogfather (Kairyuu+Seraphim)

Ojando (Ojanen+ Sando0
*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn)
*7. Yosariwen (Yosarian2+Nuwen)
*8. Ortohoops (ortolan+Hoopla)
*9. sex w/ shafteds wife club (elvis_knits+shaft.ed)
*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo)
*11.

Pesco-Light (forbiddanlight+Pesco)

nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby)
*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone)
*13. J-Scope (Jahudo+KaleiÃ

[Yosariwen]

Korts, for the love of God, please don't waste posts like that. There was absolutly no reason for you to make 2 posts in a row there. For that matter, there's no reason for you to be posting at all before you read the whole game; read the whole game, and then post all your thougts at once.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.

I don't understand what the point of telling us this was, unless you're trying to get after-the-fact townpoints by saying you were willing to let a claimed SK/vig live.

Eh? Why the hell would any town person want to let a SK live, or how would anyone expect to get "pro-town points" for that?

I said it because it was true, and because people were curious about my thought process and why I hadn't posted in a while. The whole first part of that post was me catching up on the game and posting my thoughts and such as I did so. (that huge, monster post would normally have been like 3 posts, but I was trying to conserve posts.)

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

Also, note that I certanly do NOT "want as many lynches as quickly as possible". That would be horrible stratagy, leading to lots of stupid bandwagons. I want about 2 lynches a day, ideally, which is enough to give us time to actually discuss stuff and attack people we find suspicious, while still giving us a significant advantage over the scum in terms of kill ratios. There's no need to just rapidly and blindly join every single wagon at the first oppertuinity just to secure more lynches like you seem to be suggesting; that would be terrible stratagy.

Do you really think that not blindly following wagons is a scum tell here? Is that seriously what you're suggesting? Or that "starting a bandwagon" is supposed to be a scum tell? Because I personally intend to continue to try to lynch people *I* think are scum, I'm not going to blindly follow wagons if I think there's somewhere better to put my vote. Deal with it.

This very, very much increases the probability of you being scum with PTA.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

You also then blatantly equivocate between your contrary desires:

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Also, I didn't say "I don't think he's scum". At all. Or anything like it. I think he, personally, looks scummy when you read his posts individually, which by definition means "more likely to be scum then a random lynch would be".

However, while he, personally, looks somewhat scummy, I dislike the wagon on him, the way it's basically been unopposed, and the way no one tried to start a counter wagon. (And yes, I realize the irony here since you're now trying to accuse me of doing just that, but I don't care.)

The fact is, day 1, it's very rare a member of a scum group gets lynched, less likely then random in fact, because with no facts to go on, it's very easy for scum to stear the wagon away from each other. The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Another point:

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I find it hard to believe you could be so unconvinced by our case on PTA in 154 (you never actually say what you have wrong with it), yet independently also come to the conclusion that they are scummy (while not voting them).

Um...dude...*I VOTED AND ATTACKED PTA LONG BEFORE YOU DID*. I started the wagon, remember? So what the are you talking about with questioning how *I* "independenlty came to the conclusion they are scummy". Hell, you were using MY argument to attack them in your post 154:

However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two completely useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA.

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone): This one is mostly Nuwen's read; she dislikes the way that they put A&B at lynch -1 right after it was pointed out that putting someone at lynch -1 is dangerous, and also the way the other head then unvoted in order to try and use the kill. I agree; the post where Raging Wishbone unvotes and tries to get us to keep A&B alive so we can "direct their kill" is really anti-town to me, especally since town can lynch multiple times a day anyway. Nuwen also thinks their post 131 looks kind of "fluffy", in a scummy kind of way. (Funny side note: once slipped and called Pesco-Light "Pesco-Town". I have no idea if that means anything, but seems worth mentioning while I'm thinking abut it.)

Really don't like the misdirection in deferring the read to "mostly being Nuwen's" here.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

You also totally fail to explain what motivation a mafia player could have for wanting an extra town-directed kill in play.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

Any pro-town person who has a chance to eliminate an anti-town role day 1 like that should be jumping for joy. Instead, he unvoted, after it became apparent he was a SK. At the very LEAST, it seems like he was trying to stall an inevitable lynch, which is also anti-town in this game. At the most, he was trying to prevent the SK from being lynched in a situation where lynching the SK would clearly improve the town's chances of winning.

Basically, I don't think he's on my side, because there's no reason a pro-town person should act like that.

Your case is very, very weak; another reason you distracting from the PTA wagon is scummy.

Again, all you can think about is the PTA wagon. Why are you in such a rush? You do realize that two competing bandwagons is inherently better for the town and inhererenly provides more information to the town then a day with only one wagon, right? I do hope we lynch someone by page 12, but it's only page 8 right now.

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was

not

defending RW

at all

, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

This also shows how little sense your stance on RW/PTA makes, because you speculate about a connection between both RW and PTA, while deliberately neglecting one wagon in favour of starting another.

"delibreately neglecting"? Everyone who isn't voting PTA is "delibratly neglecting" the PTA wagon just as much as I am. The only difference is I'm actually using my vote to hunt scum; in this case, someone who's more likely to be scum then PTA is, IMHO.

Anyway:

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum.

Lol.

I random vote just about 50% of the time when I'm town, and just about 50% of the time when I'm scum. Other factors affect it, certanly, but I actually make an effort to try to keep it close to that number when I can, for meta reasons that I'm not going to go into right now.

Nice try to come up with a Yos tell, though. Pretty sure that's just a factor of the relitivly small number of games we've played together, though.

[Yosariwen]

I'm not sure if continuning to go back and fourth on this forever is a good idea, since I don't want to waste too many posts. But I'm quite confident RW is scum, and frankly the sudden, unexpected, and harsh resistance I'm suddenly getting to the idea of lynching him is making me a lot more confident I'm going in the right direction.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

None of that makes it a "town tell" at all. You talk about a SK's actions being "unpredictable to scum players"; sure, but it's a lot MORE unpredictable to TOWN players, who after all are usually the ones who end up getting killed by a Sk. You talk about scum being worried about a "town consensus" deciding to direct the SK to kill a scum, but that dosn't make any sense either; if there's town consensus, town can just lynch again anyway. And if a SK is outed, scum really aren't worried about the SK beating them; if you get into a endgame scenerio where the SK can't be lynched, or where he's starting to become at threat to the town, scum can just kill him; town don't have that option, if you get into a 2-1-2 endgame or something town has absolutly no way of getting rid of the SK at all.

The SK, ESPECALLY an open and outed SK, is a MUCH bigger threat to the town then to the scum, and leaving him alive is MUCH more anti-town then it is anti-scum.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

WIFOM? This being valid hinges on you actually being town.

Huh? That dosn't make any sense at all.

It's very rare that I make a post containing a huge amount of detailed, carefully thought out, and extensivly explained analysis, to the extent that I just did, and someone's first reactions is "Woah, that post makes Yosarian look scummy!" So, yeah, I find your reaction there quite strange and unexpected. That's not "wifom", nor does it really have anything to do with my alignment.

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

The point I am making is that calling for faster lynches then avoiding a healthy wagon on your "second" largest suspect in favour of your supposed first is disingenuous.

Eh? I want us to lynch someone by page 12, so I made sure to try and find the scummiest person in the game and vote for him. Everyone should be voting right now, because we're on a time sceduale.

Why should I settle for the second best wagon when I think I can probably get someone who I think is much more likely to be scum lynched? I mean, if it really looks like the RW wagon isn't going to happen by page 12, I might be willing to settle on someone else.

And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing???

Now, that's a scummy thing to say, since obviously no one can ever prove anything of the sort.

Anyway, of course I can't prove that if PTA is scum, any more then you can prove you were not bussing him if he flips scum. However, I was pointing out that it's the hight of absurdity for you to act like I couldn't possibly suspect PTA on my own, when I *started* the wagon, and your arguments were heavily based on the ones I already made.

That really makes me think that either you're not paying attention to the game, or that you wanted to find some kind of excuse to attack me in response to my RW attack and didn't worry about being to careful with the facts. Which, again, points to you as a possible RW scum partner.

Your point about the "easy and unopposed wagon" I also do not like- that is an extremely subjective notion and you could potentially make that argument of pretty much any bandwagon in the game.

Huh? No, a lot of bandwagons are opposed in certain games. This RW wagon, for example, seems to have gotten a huge backlash for no apparent reason.

Plus you've seen people's subsequent reticence in joining the PTA wagon anyhow. I also note you rely on the implied hypocrisy of our apparent "shift in opinions" here.

No, there's nothing hypocitical about changing your mind; pro-town people should change their mind, all the time.

It's odd, though, that you don't understand what I mean when I say that the wagon feels too easy when you yourself said almost the exact same thing earlier in the game. Again, makes me think you're more interested in attacking me to try to bully me back off of the RW vote and back onto the PTA wagon then you are in actually scumhunting

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Where did I say I didn't want people commenting on his wagon? All I have said is that your position of both wanting more lynches while starting fresh new bandwagons and neglecting those of people you admit to find scummy is inconsistent.

That's not "all you said." Right here, you attacked me for wanting people to comment on the PTA wagon:

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten?

And again, you seem to fail to have understood what I said. "We should lynch about 2 people every 12 pages" does NOT mean that we should lynch someone every single chance we get no matter what without any chance for discussion first. I hate the way you're trying to pretend my position is something it isn't, and then trying to use that misinterpretation to pretend that I somehow contradicted myself.

The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If PTA's buddies

were

busing him it still would be a fantastic wagon. I don't see how a *feel* can simultaneously make you think someone is being bused; or they are town and not being bused- surely those two circumstances would have unique and distinct tells?

Interesting thought. Do you think PTA is scum and is being bussed, then? Who do you think is bussing him, and what unique and distinct tells do you see?

Obviously if PTA is being bussed he's a great wagon. But scum don't really bus all that often, in my experence, especally a good player like Tajo who's being wagoned for reasons that aren't especally strong.

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Wait didn't you say you wanted

two

lynches an action phase? Why would you switch wagons at an arbitrary point in day 12 anyway (apart from it being just before a new action phase)?

Yes, I want 2 lynches per action phase. We've already had one lynch this action phase, so I would like another one by about page 12.

That's not something that we need to stick to absolutly or anything, but I think it's a good thing to shoot for. We don't want to dilly-dally to the point where scum get too many extra kills off, but on the other hand, we don't want to rush too much either; that rush to LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH without thinking or discussing anything just completly destroyed the town in War in Heaven mafia, IMHO. 2 lynches a day seems like a happy medium for me, a speed we should be able to keep up without stifiling discussion too much.

And, since town tends to not do anything these days without a deadline, I think it would be in our best interest to basically going to treat that 2 lynch/12 page thing like a "soft" deadline, something to spur discussion and keep the game moving, although something we can certanly break if we have good reason to do so.

That's the best pro-town stratagy I can come up with for how to use the rules of this game to our advantage, anyway.

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

How does observing apparently the same things as you constitute "riding your coattails"? Why is it not plausible that you attempted to distance from PTA and are now trying to undermine his wagon having seen it go too far?

I made a case against him, you then either used part of that my case or else observed the same thing later in the game, and then you suddenly "don't understand" why I am suspicious of Tajo. That was the part of your post that I have a problem with.

It's not what I was talking about, but your whole "distancing" thing is very weak (It's basically "Yos voted PTA, then he later decided someone else was scummier then PTA and voted vote there instead, so Yos must be scum with PTA!").

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

I don't even understand your point about Zaphod not voting- I just looked back and they were voting the whole time and were actively commenting on the A&B wagon while it was going on. It's also funny that you comment on this while seemingly completely ignoring PokerFace's almost total and blatant ignoring of the situation in post 99. Apart from this, again, I ask, explain to you what was illogical about our attacks on PTA- I've asked you to clarify twice now and you totally ignore the question.

Eh? I've asked you several times now to explain your case against PTA in post 154, and you still haven't done so.

I have no problem with your post 149, since again I pointed that stuff out long before you did, and mentioned again the general lack of content in my analysis post. I just wanted you to explain exactally what you were talking about in your post 154, espeally the part about Zaphod or whatever, because I didn't understand where you were going with that, and I wanted to since PTA was on my suspect list.

By the way, it wasn't *My point* about "Zaphod not voting". That was some point you were trying to make that I don't at all understand in post 154, and I was trying to get you to explain it. Personally, I think Zaphod is probably town.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

It seemed to me you wanted to have it both ways and were introducing Nuwen's supposed read as a way of segueing from supporting a PTA lynch to an RW lynch. I thought you yourself were disowning responsibility for the attack on RW- if you yourself are happy to support your hydra's attack on RW I would drop this point.

Of course I am. If I didn't agree with her thoughts, I certanly would have said so, and if we didn't agree on him being scummy I don't imagine we would be voting for him right now.

I even specifically went out of my way in that section to say that I agreed with her analysis of RW.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

The problem is these two don't work in conjunction. You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call him scummy for being "careless" by leaving an SK on L-1, but you also want to attack him for not wanting the SK killed.

The key thing you're missing here is, he was careless for putting him at lynch -1 *BEFORE HE HAD CLAIMED*.

At that point of the game, if RW was mafia, all he would know was that A&B was not mafia, and would therefore be perfectly happy to run him up, just like mafia tend to be happy with any easy townie-lynch. On the other hand, I do NOT think a pro-town person would put someone at lynch-1 before a claim like that; if A&B had, say, claimed Cop, the mafia could have just daykilled someone not on the bandwagon and A&B would have just died without someone else having to hammer him, since the # of votes needed to lynch would have dropped from 7 down to 6.

That would have been a HUGE risk for a pro-town person to take, especally since Shaft.ed pointed out that risk in post 90, and THEN RW voted him in post 92. So, yeah, I find that scummy.

His behavior after the claim, when it became obvious AB was almost certanly a SK, is scummy for an entierly different reason (that I explained above).

So, yes, in this case, I can "have my cake and eat it to". Both actions were scumtells, for completly different reasons.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

Um...are you seriously claiming not to have understood the point we've just been contesting in the last serious of posts? And you think that's a justification for FoSing me at that????

Eh...honestly, I was getting a bit frustrated by this part of the post. Yeah, I did know you had already argued that point. I do actually think there's a very good chance that you're RW's scumbuddy here, but it's not primarally because of that.

Ok, now trying to bring emotion from the Alpha game, when I was scum, into the game here in order to manipluate the town. Scum tactic.

Um how exactly?

His entire post was him attacking me and voting for me, and the main reason he gave was all stuff that happened in the alpha game.

It's a scum manipulation trick to remind other people "Hey, remember how that guy was scum and we were town last time we played?" It's scummy because my alignment in a different game clearly has nothing to do with my alignment here, so it's worthless as a scumhunting trick, but it's an effective manipulation technique that's effective at getting people to look at someone else in a suspicious way.

Interesting; he's at lynch -2 now, and Ortohoops entire post was him attacking me because I didn't put him at lynch -1 now. So why are you attacking me here?

He is at four votes which is actually L-3.

Ah, ok, my mistake.

Although I think you're still just talking about the alpha game here, which again, is scummy.

???

It wouldn't be scummy if he was using it for meta reasons, trying to compare my playstyle from one game to another game to figure out my alignment or make a case against me. But he dosn't seem to be doing that; it sounded like what he was saying was "Hey, Yosarian was scum in Alpha, and Ortohops was town; let's all follow Ortohops and vote for Yosarian here!"

RW is obvscum here, and we need to lynch him now.

You sound

very

certain here.

(nods) Yeah. I mean, day 1 lynches are never really certain, but I already thought RW was the scummiest person in the game, and my confidence in RW being scum went WAY up after post 186.

Because RW is far scummier.

Tajo is kind of scummy; he's more likely to be scum then a random lynch. On the other hand, RW is incredibly obvscum, especally after that last post of theirs where they came up with a series of really illogical and contradictory excuses to OMGUS vote me (while specifically denying they were OMGUS voting, of course ) and tried to manipulate the town using the alpha game.

If we lynch tajo, I won't be unhappy, but I really want to lynch RW right now.

Your expressed reasons are, again, weak.

Do you really think my reasons for voting RW are weaker then the reasons for the Tajo wagon? How so?

Anyway, on an unrelated note, Nuwen has another observation she wants me to include in this post, so as to conserve posts and all that. (And yes, ortolan, I completly agree with her observation here as well; there's a good reason ZMD is on my scum list.)

"Feh, ZMD's most recent post is sparse and almost purely responsive. Everything about his post is watered down and galvanized only by questions. Even his case and vote are forced in order to refute ShaftedSex."

[Yosariwen]

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again.

Ok.

Vote:Raging Wishbone

, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

This is worth two posts.

What, you didn't think I (Nuwen) was online too? I'm channeling Yos for a moment:

"First of all, I dislike that RW just wasted another post there just to say that, rather then a more full response.

I can't imagine our private chat is likely to be that helpful here, but it's ok. Just give me a few minutes to go through and remove any role speculation or related information from the chat logs."

Which Nuwen agrees with, should Orts ask. I also added in code tags around the posts Yos sent me via AIM to make the transcript less confusing. Redacted sections are indicated.

3:57:38 PM ArtherDent: On a side note, we're really going ot have to do something in that beta game. I find it so hard to get motived, though, because of the whole "posts are bad" thing...bah, same thing happened to me in Short and Sweet
3:58:00 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I've been feeling the same dismotivation.
3:58:24 PM Mercuriala: Combined with allowing the game to fall by the wayside during Alpha's early stages.
3:58:38 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
3:59:00 PM ArtherDent: Still, lurking is still bad, if we don't post more content we're going to really get nailed for it.
3:59:15 PM Mercuriala: I'll do a strong reread after my shift is done for the day (2 minutes!) and we'll put our heads together sometime tonight/tomorrow?
3:59:18 PM Mercuriala: Oh, I agree
3:59:27 PM Mercuriala: And thanks for keeping alive in that game.
3:59:38 PM Mercuriala: It shifted to the black hole portion of my short term memory.
3:59:49 PM Mercuriala: Things that enter are rarely seen again.
4:00:09 PM ArtherDent: Heh...know what you mean
4:00:19 PM ArtherDent: And sure, sounds good
4:00:19 PM Mercuriala: resquiat in pace, Happy the Hamster.

8:17:58 PM ArtherDent: Hello
8:18:08 PM Mercuriala: Mao.
8:18:46 PM ArtherDent: Well, I was right, people are really starting to get worried about us lurking, in a bad way. Plus we just got prodded.
8:19:51 PM Mercuriala: I'm still reading. We can just be honest and explain that the game's post restriction does tend to create a buildup of post content that inevitably fades from the contemporary
8:20:00 PM Mercuriala: and just leads to disinterest/apathy in the game.
8:20:53 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
8:21:06 PM ArtherDent: This is what I have so far, I started writing it:
8:21:09 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here.
8:23:24 PM Mercuriala: I think a lot of people, especially those with town interests in mind, will sympathize. Some strong points about the game should dissolve most suspicion, I really doubt that game is going to humor an outright policy lynch on a lurker
8:24:10 PM ArtherDent: Ok, this is it now:
8:24:12 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)


8:24:44 PM ArtherDent: Ok. So now, relevent game analysis:
8:24:44 PM Mercuriala: Don't post just to make that excuse, however. How long will you be alive?
8:24:45 PM ArtherDent: Um
8:24:53 PM Mercuriala: ^
8:25:13 PM ArtherDent: (nods) Yeah, I was thinking we'd combine that and some other stuff into a single post, if we could
8:25:24 PM Mercuriala: I usually take notes on games and have too many leads to go on and very little focus, but this game has been rather sparse
8:27:09 PM ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going to post SOMETHING tonight, no quesiton
8:27:33 PM ArtherDent: (I've never been replaced in any game I've been the entire time I've been on MS; this won't be the first one. )
8:28:01 PM Mercuriala: Heh, especially not with a hydra partner to (presumably) fall back on.
8:28:27 PM Mercuriala: Being dead in LAL helps, although typing with stitches is irritating.
8:28:54 PM Mercuriala: I wonder what the precedent is for dictated cases.
8:28:54 PM ArtherDent: Stiches? You ok?
8:29:07 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I was just a ninny.
8:29:17 PM Mercuriala: I used a switchblade as a corkscrew.
8:29:20 PM Mercuriala: I got the cork!
8:29:24 PM Mercuriala: And some skin.
8:29:45 PM ArtherDent: Heh. Be careful; you know what happened to me this fall, right?
8:29:53 PM Mercuriala: I do not.
8:30:53 PM ArtherDent: Oh. I just gave myself a tiny little cut on my pinky finger, while washing dishes; on the inside of my finger between the hand and the lower joint. Such a small cut, it didn't even need stiches. Except I somehow managed to sever the tendon in my finger in the process.
8:31:42 PM Mercuriala: Heh, you must have bony fingers.
8:32:04 PM ArtherDent: Eh...not really. The hand specilist thought it was probably because my finger was curled at the time I did it
8:32:52 PM Mercuriala: Even then, it's strange that you hit tendon prior to slicing through fatty tissue (which would have required stitches).
8:33:01 PM ArtherDent: So, had to get surgery, get the tendon re-attached. Then was in a cast over my entire right hand and arm for 2 weeks, and then spent the next 5 months or so with a brace on my arm and going to physcial therepy 2 times a week
8:33:44 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, it was pretty strange, everyone agreed with that. The people in the hospital didn't even seem to believe me. (Question of the year: "Are you sure your finger worked before you cut yourself?")
8:34:10 PM Mercuriala: You sure learned your lesson, didn't you. Get a dishwasher like the rest of us environmentally unfriendly, fat, lazy Americans.
8:34:34 PM ArtherDent: Lol. Yeah, a dishwasher would be nice
8:36:01 PM Mercuriala: I'd also point out in your post that lurking is a bit ineffectual as a tell.
8:36:22 PM Mercuriala: Scum need to push to the next action phase, not assist in delaying it.
8:41:36 PM ArtherDent: Eh, I think people know that already, but we can say it if you want
8:41:46 PM ArtherDent: This is what I have so far:
8:41:49 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.
Anyway, sex with shaft.ed's wife really seems pro-town to me here; I really get a good vibe from them.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage. We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here.

8:42:29 PM ArtherDent: (Also, for the reason I posted in the last paragraph, I think the correct pro-town move here is to vote for SOMEONE during this post, although I really have no idea who yet)
8:48:56 PM ArtherDent: Do you have thoughts about anyone in the game? Any analyis you have, basically anything you're thinking at this point, let me know and I'll add it onto the post
8:49:34 PM Mercuriala: I'm trying to write up something complementary and cohesive as well, sorry slow going.
8:49:45 PM ArtherDent: Ok, no problem
8:51:10 PM Mercuriala: Thus far, I think your post will be most critiqued for saying a nothing in a multitude of words - "I was going to do" or "I was about to do" is meaningless and can neither be proven nor corroborated, and it provides very little comment on what will be called "current" issues
8:51:36 PM Mercuriala: The only piece of alignment posture in there is your pro-town vibe from Shaft's wife.
8:51:41 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, i know.
8:52:12 PM ArtherDent: This game is hard, heh.
8:52:19 PM Mercuriala: It really is.
8:52:21 PM ArtherDent: Still, it was true.
8:52:29 PM Mercuriala: I'm thinking straight up wagon analysis will be the way to go.
8:52:32 PM ArtherDent: And I don't see any reason to not say it
8:52:41 PM Mercuriala: Oh, by all means
8:52:45 PM ArtherDent: Eh...but there's not much point in doing a traditional wagon analysis on a SK wagon
8:52:54 PM Mercuriala: We just have to follow it up with something worthwhile in the same post
8:52:58 PM ArtherDent: Agreed
8:52:59 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, that was a bit feh
8:53:14 PM ArtherDent: Oh, lynching a SK day 1 is AWESOME, probably the best thing the town can possibly do
8:53:30 PM Mercuriala: But pretty useless for the rest of the game
8:53:37 PM Mercuriala: I'm not complaining at all
8:53:41 PM ArtherDent: (shrug)
8:58:33 PM ArtherDent: Also, I keep forgetting who is who, which is annoying
8:58:57 PM ArtherDent: I think I'm going to include the whole list of who is in which hyrda from the queau thread into here, for easy reference
8:59:32 PM Mercuriala: God yes I hate that.
8:59:49 PM Mercuriala: I keep having to refer back to the original player list
8:59:55 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
9:01:54 PM ArtherDent: Trying to figure out who nyballosulgniirkps is now
9:05:07 PM Mercuriala: Ah, Kison+Springlullaby
9:05:13 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, found it
9:05:23 PM ArtherDent: Mods posted it in thread when they replaced in
9:05:31 PM ArtherDent: Thanks
9:05:35 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I just hit that spot while rereading
9:17:40 PM Mercuriala: God, the only thing jutting out in the slightest is Wishbone's L-1 vote on A&B after half a page of players making the cautious decision NOT to put A&B at L-1 lest scum get a two for one.
9:17:53 PM Mercuriala: then walked home, drunk with my shirt off, drunk dialing people and heckling people on the street
9:17:55 PM Mercuriala: Er
9:17:59 PM ArtherDent: Hehe
9:18:01 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1653027
9:18:09 PM Mercuriala: Fritz said that
9:18:17 PM Mercuriala: Fucking clipboard.
9:18:18 PM ArtherDent: Ah, ok
9:18:27 PM ArtherDent: I was assuming it was you, that would have been funnier
9:18:42 PM Mercuriala: I'm classy.
9:18:45 PM Mercuriala: ::snerk::
9:18:50 PM ArtherDent:
9:19:46 PM Mercuriala: And then his hydra partner retracts the vote, with the hope of steering the kill
9:20:32 PM ArtherDent: Yuck
9:20:40 PM Mercuriala: "As long as you kill whoever we tell you" can translate into another scum maneuvered kill. In this setup especially, a living vig is more likely to push the town into a lylo situation
9:28:47 PM Mercuriala: I think Frog Dodging's supposed posthumous post was also genuine and cautionary from a pro-town perspective; it contained a relatively low amount of scum death WIFOM that crops up. My whimsical gut says dying townie.
9:29:16 PM Mercuriala: I'm actually reading backwards in time now, sorry I'm so slow going.
9:29:43 PM ArtherDent: By the way, if raging wishbone is scum the part where he calls pesco-light "pesco town" could be a nifty scum slip.
9:30:14 PM Mercuriala: I'm really hesitant to call Raging Wishbone's fluff scummy
9:30:46 PM Mercuriala: I realize I'm applying an uneven standard, but I've always perceived him as a bit of a duffer.
9:32:10 PM ArtherDent: Eh
9:32:28 PM ArtherDent: I really do call that post scummy, though, where he wanted us to keep the SK alive to "direct his kill"
9:32:36 PM Mercuriala: Definitely
9:32:43 PM Mercuriala: Especially after the vote, unvote, and then hammer.
9:32:48 PM ArtherDent: (I'm currently trying to make a list of all the players and put them into "town, leaning town, neutral, scummy" type catagories
9:33:33 PM Mercuriala: (I gave up writing coherently in favor of keeping my stitches intact, I'll just feed you observations to relay)
9:33:57 PM ArtherDent: Ok
9:34:32 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13#1660013
9:34:57 PM Mercuriala: Here's where the interaction gets fluffy (especially when he gets Adel to respond and take up a game post).
9:35:22 PM Mercuriala: That post contains another absa-stance too. "DGB/Plum get a free pass."
9:36:39 PM ArtherDent: Ok
9:37:01 PM Mercuriala: Just more pieces that hinge on RR's alignment.
9:37:22 PM ArtherDent: brb
9:39:09 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#1664377
9:40:02 PM Mercuriala: PTA defends that scummy point against RW here, by the way - calls vig direction a null tell under the assumption that Raging Wishbone didn't understand the mechanics of the game make a vig role immaterial
9:40:37 PM Mercuriala: "what he said has both town and scum motivations. Except in this game. But he didn't realize that, really. Null tell."
9:42:43 PM ArtherDent: Ok; possible link to ragin wishbone
9:47:40 PM ArtherDent: I'm probably going to be going to bed soon, tired. Let me see if I can finish this...
9:47:55 PM Mercuriala: Understandable.
9:48:10 PM Mercuriala: I can keep collecting ideas to pool tomorrow or over the weekend.
9:49:15 PM ArtherDent: The one thing about Poke the Alpaca, while I see scum tells, the wagon dosn't really feel right to me
9:49:24 PM ArtherDent: It's too easy. No one seems to disagree with it at all
9:49:32 PM Mercuriala: Tajo is a very opportunistic wagon target.
9:49:57 PM Mercuriala: And the intrahydra disagreements do not help his case in the slightest.
9:50:53 PM ArtherDent: (shrug)
9:50:59 PM Mercuriala: I don't think the wagon is solely scum-directed, if that's what you mean - I'm assuming at least one scum member is choosing to remain quiet about Tajo. It's difficult who is simply laying low and who is making a case on a competing wagon, however, because of the inactivity
9:51:02 PM Mercuriala: but yeah
9:51:08 PM Mercuriala: I get what you're feeling
9:52:32 PM ArtherDent: I wouldn't say scum directed
9:52:39 PM ArtherDent: But it feels...scum supported, or at least not scum opposed
9:54:33 PM Mercuriala: I want more people to comment on the wagon.
9:55:34 PM Mercuriala: Easier to splice off-voters who don't support the wagon or off-voters who are just playing catchup
9:55:56 PM Mercuriala: But yes, the fact that there are no competing wagons is alarming.
9:56:09 PM Mercuriala: But could be blamed partially on inactivity
9:57:43 PM ArtherDent: Ok...I've commented on almost everyone now,
9:57:47 PM ArtherDent: Any thoughts on j-scope?
9:58:00 PM Mercuriala: Not that stand out
9:58:14 PM Mercuriala: god it's so annoying to try and read a player in isolation.
9:58:27 PM ArtherDent: Ok
10:02:29 PM ArtherDent: Wow, this is a monster post. Ok, here it is, right before i post it
10:02:39 PM ArtherDent: Lol...it's too long to post in AIM
10:03:27 PM ArtherDent: Ok, let me just give you the part you didn't see yet
10:03:33 PM Mercuriala: Hah, all right
10:03:39 PM ArtherDent: And it's still too long. :haha:
10:03:52 PM Mercuriala: PM it, hah
10:04:05 PM ArtherDent: Ok, part 1:
10:04:20 PM ArtherDent:

***CODE TAGS ADDED FOR POSTING PURPOSES*** -Nuwen

Code: Select all

[quote="J-Scope"]
From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block. 
[/quote] 
  
Could be; in fact, almost certanly is true at this point, considering the time that's passed.  Or else the SK might not have been telling the truth about having submitted the kill yet.   
  
I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148.   That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch. 
  
I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?   
  
I'm having trouble remember who is who, which makes meta especally hard, and it gets even worse when people post in their origional accounts and I can't remember who goes with what hydra.  If you do a game like this again, Adel, it might help if you put that info in the first post.  Let me post the list here, from the queau thread,for reference: 
  
 
10:04:23 PM ArtherDent:  *1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (DGB+Plum) 
2. Apples and Banana (SensFan+xofelf) 
*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390) 
*4. Trotsky (Korts+roflcopter) 
*5. [s]Death the Hogfather (Kairyuu+Seraphim)[/s] Ojando (Ojanen+ Sando0
*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn) 
*7. Yosariwen (Yosarian2+Nuwen) 
*8. Ortohoops (ortolan+Hoopla) 
*9. sex w/ shafteds wife club (elvis_knits+shaft.ed) 
*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) 
*11. [s]Pesco-Light (forbiddanlight+Pesco)[/s] nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby)
*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone) 
*13. J-Scope (Jahudo+KaleiÃ

[Yosariwen]

Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"...The reason I write that is not because of a sure scum read but more so because of the defensive nature of the post. The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy..

Ok, you are so scum.

We posted those AIM logs only because you demanded that I do so; we origionally didn't want to and weren't planning on doing so, but when you requested it, we couldn't reaally think of any reason not to (except, of coursee, that you are obv scum looking for some way to undermine our case against you.) We never claimed we had "4 aim chats that will knock your socks off" or anything even remotely like that; you're again pretty clearly just making stuff up here.

@Yo/Nuwen - umm, there is no wagon on me Genius, it is you and yours and yours against us alone!

Not yet. I'm sure there will be one soon though, if people are paying attention.

Remember we dont vote in this game who we dont like, we vote for who is scum.

Well, yeah. I like you guys just fine. It's not your fault you drew a scum role this game.

Anyway, RW, it's great that you unvoted me and all. But I still don't at all understand why you voted me in post 186.

RW: WHY DID YOU VOTE ME IN POST 186, IF YOU'RE CLAIMING IT WASN'T OMGUS?

]Wait, do you want 2 additional lynches in this action phase or 1 lynch, being the second lynch in this action phase (after A&B)? Post 179 read like you wanted 2 total but 185 reads like you want 3 total.

One more lynch today this action phase would be fine. I thought I was pretty clear about that...

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid

Trying to do 3 a day seems like a bad idea to me.

I'm not sure about RW scum. A lot of it seems to be an emotional OMGUS reaction on Yosiwen's part - he made a nice long detailed post, got attacked for it, felt victimised. However, there is a nugget, a core (that came before the back and forth) which makes some sense - like I said before, we treat the A&B wagon like a townie wagon for the sake of scumhunting, and RW's actions there are scummy.

FWIW, I don't think that makes sense. If you think my respnse to Otrhohoop was emotional for this reason, you might be right. However, it was in that long post that I came to the conclusion RW was scum, and his posts since then have, IMHO, been quite scummy, especally post 186.

Other then that, Frog Dodging's post makes a lot of sense to me, especally the attack on ZMD.


[quote="KaleiÃ

[Yosariwen]

Awesome. Ok, on the one hand, me and Nuwen's gut feeling that the Poptajo wagon was scum supported is apparently correct, now that we now shafted is scum. I'm glad I refused to give into pressure and join that wagon. I really can't see any reason his scum buddies would want to bus him day 1, either, so while it's possible, I'm pretty sure Tajo is not mafia at the moment. Also, this is a bit WIFOM, but Shaft.ed's final post where he attacked me for attacking RW, and then defended RW in very vauge terms, make me happier about my RW vote.

The bad news is, between the sudden death of a mafia member and the clarification from the Mod that there are no vigs in this game, we've apparently got a second SK in this game.

Now, to respond to some stuff that's happened since our last post:

On Yosariwen: I hate it. Justification in less than 100 words for last page please. What was the point you were trying to make. Why so many words?

FOS

up to lynch it at any moment.

Excuse me?

I really don't think my posts have been wordier then normal; I've condensed what would normally be multiple posts into one post sometimes, but I haven't been wordier then normal.

And, in any case, this game IS going to have long posts. It's basically written right into the rules. If you can't deal with that, then I'm sorry, but you probably joined the wrong game.

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Where did I attack her for not voting?

I have no idea, PTA; you should ask Ortohoops that, not me.

As I mentioned in that part you quoted, I was trying to get Ortohoops to explain their post 154, where they said, amoung other things, this:

Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks. It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum.

I was trying to get them to explain what they meant there, because I don't really get it. Looking at their post again, I may have misunderstood what they were trying to say, but I'd still rather they explain it themselves.

Also, since you're still asking about the random vote thing; I still really don't think I have the meta you're descibing, but if it helps, the first post of the game was actualy made by Nuwen, not by me (Yosarian). By the time I made my first post of the game, post 42 on page 2, I had a non-random reason to vote; if I hadn't, I probably would have random voted, just to get my vote on someone, which I think is important in this game setup.

I am not going to change my opinion of how off it feels for Yos to defend Nuwen, however I will give you this point they WERE scum in Alpha and I absolutely do not feel they are scum here anymore. Dude she kicked our asses in Heavens Gates, so for him to say she is inexperienced is off in my humble opinion.

I still don't think I've done this at all IN THIS GAME. If you're still talking about the Alpha game, I'm not sure how that's relevent here.

Yos, what makes me look cautious?

It seems like you were unwilling to scumhunt agressivly, until you were attacked for not scumhunting agressivly, and then you started; it looks like you mostly scumhunted in order to avoid being attacked, instead of because you wanted to find scum.

Being much more concerned with how you look and with not making waves then with what's good for the town can be a scumtell, and I kind of get that vibe from your posts.

Yosariwen, I need you to detail what about Sex Club's posting during the A&B lynch looked so notably pro-town, please. Also - you thought the wagon was either scum-supported or not opposed by the scum. Can you pinpoint what gave you this feeling?

I was wrong about Shaft.ed, obviously.

But, they had a whole series of posts where they was agresssivly attacking A&B for not participating, ect, that really looked like scumhunting to me, and gave me a good vibe; I usually consider agressive scumhunting to be a town tell. Of course it's not a flawless one.

As for the wagon; there was sort of a sense to it that it was...too easy. I've seen a lot of mafia games; usually, when town lynches a scum day 1, it's usually either a huge struggle, or else a scum makes a catastrophically huge mistake and his buddies bus him for it. Neither of those were the case here; the wagon felt like one of those easy, smooth, day 1 mislynches that I see all the time (and sadly often end up on). No one expressed any doubt about it at all, there was really no one that acted in a way that made me thing "hmm...there's a possible tajo scumbuddy".

I couldn't tell WHO on the wagon was scum, exactally, but wagons that are scum supported tend to feel different, tend to play out different, then wagons that are scum opposed.

If RW isn't a viable lynch for today I would consider going back to PtA although they'd have to be an SK and I don't know how likely a second SK is anymore.

At this point, I'm pretty sure PTA is not mafia, and while SK is possible, lynching someone who's probably not mafia just because they might be a SK seems like a bad gamble.

By the way, I'm confused by the second half of your sentance. We know a mafia person got daykilled, we know that it couldn't have been the SK who got lynched (because too much time went past), and we know that if there's a SK there can't be a vig, so there has to be another SK in the game, right?

[Yosariwen]

Ortohoops; I have a couple of questions for you. If you've already answered these, please forgive me and just point me to where you did; I haven't been able to find answers to these in any of your posts.

1. What information do you glean from finding out Sex with Shaft.ed's alignment?

2. Specifically, does it change your opinion on the PTA wagon at all? Why or why not?

3. As far as I can tell, you still haven't explained much of your attack on PTA in post 154, even though I've asked you multiple times about it. Could you please explain again exactally what points you were trying to make in that post?

4. To the best of my undestanding, the reason you suspect me because you think I'm scum with PTA who was trying to protect him. Is that still correct? Is your reason for suspecting me completly dependent on PTA's alignment?

At this point, I'm getting a bad feeling about Ortohops. A scum, the mafia godfather, died, and yet it feels like that didn't at all change his thoughts on the game, even though it changed the opinion of most other people pushing for the PTA lynch. That seems odd to me, makes me wonder if Shaft.ed coming up scum wasn't as much of a surprise to him as it was to most of the rest of us. It also kind of feels like Ortohoops and Shaft.ed have been "working together" for most of the game; they've been pushing in the same directions, making the same cases; they both attacked A&B at about the same time, then they both attacked PTA, and they both attacked me for going after RW instead of PTA. They didn't directly interact with each other much, but it kind of feels like the two of them were working in tandom to pull the town in certain directions. It's also worth noting that there's also a possible link between Ortohoops and my other main suspect, since Ortohoops attacked me for attacking RW.

My main suspects at the moment are:
RW
Ortohoops
ZMD

(Yes; PTA is no longer on the list, and Ortohoops now is on the list.)

Oh, and to answer the one point he made:

This is still wifom for exactly the same reasons as previously stated- I do not know your alignment- it is your subjective assertion that your analysis was "carefully thought out and extensively explained".

Well, sure it's subjective. When I said that your reaction to my post felt strange to me, it should have been clear that that was entierly a subjective observation made from my point of view. Still, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Yosariwen]

(Yes; PTA is no longer on the list, and Ortohoops now is on the list.)

Being brazen about your scummy/omgusy change in preferences does not make it less scummy.

Excuse me? How was that "scummy" or "omgusy"?

I was suspicious that the PTA wagon was a scum supported wagon, and as it turns out, I was right. Shaft.ed's attacks on PTA don't look like a bus to me either. So I now think that PTA is not mafia, so he moved off the list.

On the other hand, for reasons that I explained, between your over-reaction to me not liking the PTA wagon, and the way (as I explained) it feels like you and Shaft.ed were "working in tandom" for much of day 1, I now find you quite suspicious.

How is any of that "a scummy or omgusy change in preference"??

- The reason we didn't comment on shaft.ed earlier was that I was rushing to get a post through before the prod and skimread the game. I noticed shaft.ed's death but didn't take into account its implications. I concede when I re-read his posts his biggest target of tunneling appears to be PTA (over multiple posts too, see e.g. 175 and 200), which makes PTA very unlikely to be scum with him. By extension, my case for you being PTA's scumbuddy and defending him less water. It's still quite possible one or the other is SK/mafia but this does put a dampener on my theory.

(shrug) PTA could still in theory be a SK, sure. That's why I've kept saying he looks "not mafia" to me.

But, yeah, this is what I was getting at, and I thought it was scummy that you didn't react this way earlier. In fact, I still do; I'm glad you realized what I mean now, but it's interesting that you didn't until I pointed out exactally why you NOT realizing that seemed lke a scum tell.

It's also worth noting that there's also a possible link between Ortohoops and my other main suspect, since Ortohoops attacked me for attacking RW.

How is it "worth noting"? Anyone reading the thread could see that we'd defended Raging Wishbone (note we have been less than impressed with more recent posts). It's not like this is original or insightful analysis. Did you actually have an issue with the content of our defence?

Yeah; like I said, I voted RW for reasons I believe were reasonable, and your reaction seemed to be to become extremly angry and agressive towards me for not joining the PTA wagon and for voting someone who wasn't PTA. The post seemed like an emotional over-reaction to my post, except I don't understand why my attack on RW would make you emotional or angry. One possible expliation could be a link between you and RW.

And I have no qualms with saying that I thought sex w/ was probably

the

towniest player, possible alongside Frog up until the point he died.

(nods) I don't have any problem with that; he did look really pro-town, and ironically that could be why the SK killed him.

[Yosariwen]

Posting to avoid prod

@ Yoswen (263): you speculate about a possible link between me and shaft.ed but you seem to agree there was no indication his motivations were scummy until he died. This is contradictory. If he was using pro-town logic and happened to be scum and I have also used pro-town logic, this does not entail a link between us.

It's not contradictory. One common pattern amoung scum is that they both try to push the town in the same direction, but they try to do so without directly interacting with each other or quoting each other much. You and shaft.ed fit that pattern.

I'm not claiming it's 100% conclusive or anything on it's own, but it is a type of behavior that increases the chances of you being scum with him.

The post seemed like an emotional over-reaction to my post, except I don't understand why my attack on RW would make you emotional or angry. One possible expliation could be a link between you and RW.

Do scum typically act aggressively and emotionally to you voting their scumbuddies? Not in my experience. Also I'm not aware of where I/we acted emotionally from memory.

(shrug) Anyone can get agressive and emotional if they thought things were smoothly going their way, and then suddenly there's a bump in the road. In this case, if you and your scumbuddy seemed to be on the way to easily lynching a townie, then all of a sudden I came out of nowhere and went after your scumbuddy instead, then sure, if you're scum from RW that could make you frustrated, and agressive towards me.

And that was the vibe I got from your (ortolan's) post 191.

[Yosariwen]

Yeah, I agree on how strong the meta read on the Trotsky wagon was. He wasn't one of my first choices for scum, but I was planning on hammering him before the end of page 12 myself if that was the only lynch we were going to get this page.

Anyway, my main suspects are still Ortohoops, RW, and ZMD.

[Yosariwen]

rofl, this was your breakthrough case a good ole fashion load of OMGUS... Geee, J-Scope let me humbly apoligize for anything I wrote that implied you were scum (without proof you are scum) or if I hurt your feelings, because you seem so sensitive these days... I also would like to take this opporutunity to thank you FUCKING up a gambit I was playing! meh although the gambit was on you and Orthohoop and YES genius it was based on Alpha...so you are saying I made... what a mistake by basing my opinions on Alpha... rofl, your case is epic fail.

UNVOTE: ZMD

@Zmd - I will give you the benefit of the doubt based on your post.

Ugh.

J-scope posts a pretty good, detailed, and logical reason for his suspicion on Raging Wishbone. And RW's response?

1. Calls J-scope's entire attack "OMGUS" without responding to any points in it.

2. Randomally insults J-scope, with a "I don't know why you're so sensitive" post, which just seems odd considering J-scope's post was much more "logical analyis" then "angry ranting".

3. Claims that somehow J-scope just screwed up some "gambit" he was running. I've seen scum claim "No, it was all a gambit" sooo many times...


I know we're still in twilight, but

Vote:Raging Wishbone.

He so looks like caught scum here.